"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese"

[tchaiku]

Corinth was probably the main center of Peloponnese. Sparta fell after the classical age, even in ancient times, Spartans left little behind.

I agree, I wanted to mention Roman colonists too, but I think Roman colonists were much less in numbers compared to Illyro-Thracians and Dacians. I always wondered how much did the Roman colonization affect Greece's population?
Judging from the population of Patras and Corinth, Roman colonists probably were 10% of Peloponnesian population just from those 2 cities alone, without couting others.

[Carlin]

You may be right.

Let's not forget the impact of Arvanite colonizations throughout mainland Greece -- which were truly astonishing (in many areas these Arvanites settled in completely abandoned and depopulated villages & areas).

Those Arvanites did not end up going to Mars. What happened to them was quite simply language shift -- nowadays they claim direct descent from Solon, Socrates and Pericles.

[tchaiku]

Peloponnese was heavily repopulated during the late 17th century under the Venetian control, I am looking forward it. Look at it too, perhaps you may find something.

[Carlin]

Repost: Source is Page 161 of the book ΟΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΟΒΛΑΧΟΙ (ΑΡΜΑΝΟΙ) (ΠΡΩΤΟΣ ΤΟΜΟΣ), by ΕΞΑΡΧΟΣ ΓΙΩΡΓΗΣ.

For the Albanians/Albanian-speakers:

"So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19)."

Links:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=846
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3...ge%2FArchive_1


The Albanian-speakers were certainly way more numerous than the Slavophones.

In the book Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas, I found something that I already shared on this forum previously, but am repeating it here: C. N. Sathas used written testimonies to support that the Slavs never arrived in the Peloponnese and hide under their name Vlachs.

As I am already repeating myself, let me demonstrate that an existence of a "Vlachia" / "Volchia" in Peloponnese (namely Arcadia) can be found in primary sources. From Les Tzacones, by Stamatis C. Caratzas - we see Footnote 191, Page 120 --> APUD VOLCHIAM ET ALIAS ARCADIAE ET ROMANIAU PARTES.

https://books.google.ca/books?id=i_v...lchiam&f=false

Page 120 Summary and Translation:

- Chalcocondyle said that Vlachs were settled in Laconia, on the Taygetos and peninsula of Tenarion.
- In a petition of the inhabitants of Monemvasia, dated 1527, it is said that the Vlachs (Vulachi) have become accustomed to graze their cattle every winter in their territories; which confirms the testimony of Chalcocondyle the site of the settlement.
- In the Frankish era, we have the testimony as shown above: "Apud Volchiam et alias Arcadiae et Romaniau partes".
- On the page 120, there are numerous toponyms listed which contain the term "Vlach" in it. [Again, this only refers to toponyms with the term "Vlach" in it. In the footnotes of page 121, there are additional such toponyms provided from the following regions and areas of Peloponnese: Olympia, Pylia, Triphylia.]

Page 121 Summary - footnote 197:
- The probable areas of Vlach settlement must be Gortynia and Laconia in the Peloponnese. Philippson admitted as probable settlement of Vlachs in the Peloponnese, without being able to specify neither date nor place of origin.

Page 122 - Top:
"Il est maintenant tres probable que les Valaques ont ete installes dans la Peloponnese." --> It is now very likely that the Vlachs settled in the Peloponnese.

Furthermore, I haven't provided additional translations from this book, but there is an Athonite legend (legend from Holy Mountain/Mount Athos), as well as medieval Imperial Chrysobulls which indicate that these Peloponnesian Vlachs were originally living in southern Macedonia, very close to Mount Athos -- and were expelled and transferred from these areas to Peloponnese (namely Tzaconia), most likely by Alexios I Komnenos. The interesting thing is that this is a book about Tzaconians, and the author Stamatis C. Caratzas, has demonstrated that "Tzaconians" were also transferred to the Peloponnese (Tzaconia) from Macedonia, around the same time and from the same districts as the Vlachs.

On Page 126 we read of "a relationship" between Tzaconians and Vlachs:

"Deux indications militent pour l'existence d'un rapport entre les Tzacones et les Valaques dans la poesie populaire." --> "Two indications argue for the existence of a relationship between Tzacones and Vlachs in popular poetry."

My ramblings on this can be found here (with screenshots), page 5 of this same thread:
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...?t=6633&page=5

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

"So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19)."

For Peloponnese it can be true, but it was mathematically impossible for Albanians (in XV century) to cover up 45% of Greece's population, the total Albanian population during those times was 350,000-500,000 (I assume) at most.

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by Carlin15

- Footnote 304:
See report of Venetian Administrator .... where it is mentioned that the people of mountainous villages of the Peloponnese were a mixture of orthodox popluations, a fact, of course, that confirms the presence of Vlachs and it also comes out from an order of the Venetians and from the Maniot songs that send to the devil the Vlach and the Moraitiki language, because they [speakers of Vlach and of Moraitiki] were making fun of the Maniot language and also from the nickname Vlachs that was given not only to Arcadians but also to a part of Maniots. Also see M. Lamprinidou, "The Albanians in mainland Greece and the Peloponnese".

Very interesting point, I wanted to mention before, that there is actually a Venetian in 1700s who claims the Greeks (in Morea) were more numerous than Albanians.

What do you think about this? Was he wrong, misinterpreted, or Albanians were Hellenized earlier? Or maybe the Albanian element in Peloponnese decreased during the centuries?

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by tchaiku

For Peloponnese it can be true, but it was mathematically impossible for Albanians (in XV century) to cover up 45% of Greece's population, the total Albanian population during those times was 350,000-500,000 (I assume) at most.

Well, in the XV century (or thereabouts) it is estimated that Europe as a whole had approx. "only" 80 M residents. Britain, prior to the Black Death, had 7 M. In the preceeding centuries/millenium the numbers were drastically lower. I don't think mainland Greece had more than 1 M residents in the XV century. What do you think? What was the population of Greece in XV century?




URL:
https://www.populationmatters.org/wp...en_history.pdf

[tchaiku]

" The Peloponnese is inhabited by Greeks and Albanians, these Greeks, the most populous , the same cities and they come in commerce and shipping, and the Albanians who have merged with the Greeks, so that they are not considered to belong to the same tribe, but to be different in rank, to be less affluent and civilized, to be infinite and nomadic, and to live in the Arcadian mountains in the winter Ilida and Argolida and the coasts of Fanari (Ermionida, Troizina and Epidavria). »

Venetian writter.
http://kleftouria.blogspot.com/2008/04/1821_19.html?m=1

[tchaiku]

Originally Posted by tchaiku

" The Peloponnese is inhabited by Greeks and Albanians, these Greeks, the most populous , the same cities and they come in commerce and shipping, and the Albanians who have merged with the Greeks, so that they are not considered to belong to the same tribe, but to be different in rank, to be less affluent and civilized, to be infinite and nomadic, and to live in the Arcadian mountains in the winter Ilida and Argolida and the coasts of Fanari (Ermionida, Troizina and Epidavria). »

Venetian writter.
http://kleftouria.blogspot.com/2008/04/1821_19.html?m=1

Why didn't they give us percentages damn it.

[Carlin]

'Interesting' toponyms - Servo, Biliovo

ΜΠΙΛΙΟΒΟ / BILIOVO




https://maniatika.wordpress.com/2013...F%CE%B2%CE%BF/