Macedonia last in Europe by quality of life

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

And we in the Diaspora are the result of people who said it sucked, understood it and subsequently chose to leave Macedonia behind.

That sentence is something I tried not to use in order to avoid further confrontation with some members,but Chris wrote it now anyway and he is correct there.
With all the "stop complaining and running away, stay there & fight to prosper" narrative,some members here obviously forget that at some point in their lives,their ancestors did exactly the same thing that they criticize me of - eventually gave up and moved abroad.Whether it was the Aegean brothers that decided not to stay in Aegean Macedonia and suffer the repression of the Greek government instead of fighting it,or the "politically unfitting" opponents of the communist regime in former Yugoslavia that decided to flee rather than organize and tackle the authorities,or any other reason for that matter.They all ended up being fed up and decided to "take the easy way out" rather than stay and try to face and solve their problems.So next time some of you criticize me of inaction and "running away instead of facing my (and the Republic's) problems",have this in mind.

Anyway,back to the original theme of the thread.The score of the countries in this study is based on indicators that were mentioned in my first post.And even though some may not agree with it,even if we leave room for statistical errors,the end result can only differ slightly.We may not end up last,but we're at the bottom for sure.No matter how someone rearrange,recalculate,adds or takes away an indicator or two,the final order can't differ that much.

[Karposh]

Srekjen i Chestit Ilinden everyone. This is good, I like it. It’s a healthy debate and an important one to be having as the same argument comes up time and time again. Dragan, no hard feelings brother. We’re just expressing opinions that don’t seem to coincide on this particular issue but that’s okay. No one ever said that we have to agree on everything here. I pulled you up on something that I felt was important to me. However, there’s no malice behind my comments, as I’m sure there’s none behind yours either. Admittedly, I tend to go a bit overboard on the sarcasm when I’m trying to make my point but I hope you take that in good humour and not read into it too much as a personal attack on you. As for criticising you for wanting to move abroad, I’m sure you’ll agree I have never done that. Stay, don’t stay, that’s none of my business…That’s entirely up to you and you alone.

This topic (Macedonian Diaspora Vs Macedonians in Macedonia) goes to the heart of every Macedonian who finds himself living out his life abroad, and seeing his children and grandchildren slowly melting away into the mainstream society of the adopted country. How long can we expect that the torch will be carried among the younger generations for a Macedonian identity? Indefinitely? - Unlikely.

I’m pretty certain every Macedonian knows why and how they ended up living life away from their homeland and no-one in their right mind is looking at the situation through rose-coloured glasses. Granted, it was through necessity and everyone that left has their own tragic tale to tell. Most of us here are no doubt, 2nd, 3rd or even 4th generation Macedonians living in Australia, North America or Western Europe. If things were well, our fathers, grandfathers or great-grandfathers would never have left their beloved villages. Yet, here we are. But, as far as I’m concerned, that doesn’t mean we have to rubbish the place every opportunity we get. What are we saying to our kids by doing that?

I don’t have kids of my own yet but nothing makes me prouder than hearing my little niece and nephew tell their Aussie friends that they are Macedonian. It would be a sad day indeed when that mysterious, far away place that we keep speaking of, called Macedonia, should one day become too shameful for our kids to be associated with and, as a consequence, they become too ashamed to call themselves Macedonians.

This next piece of information might be of interest to you Dragan. I happened to be reading the Vecer newspaper and I came across an article about Nikola Gruevski’s recent visit to your hometown of Shtip where he was promoting the latest job creations there. Apparently, the unemployment rate has been slashed by 50% in that region of Macedonia. I know how sceptical you are of official government unemployment figures but, nevertheless, read it and please let me know what you think. http://vecer.mk/ekonomija/stranskite...nosta-vo-shtip

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Karposh

This next piece of information might be of interest to you Dragan. I happened to be reading the Vecer newspaper and I came across an article about Nikola Gruevski’s recent visit to your hometown of Shtip where he was promoting the latest job creations there. Apparently, the unemployment rate has been slashed by 50% in that region of Macedonia. I know how sceptical you are of official government unemployment figures but, nevertheless, read it and please let me know what you think. http://vecer.mk/ekonomija/stranskite...nosta-vo-shtip

I remember watching this on TV the other day.Several problems there:

1) The source (Vecer) is one of the strongest supporters of DPMNE.Their chief editor is Dragan Pavlovic - Latas,arguably the strongest media propaganda tool Grujo ever had.He's at the same time the chief editor of TV Sitel,another pro-government national media that stops at nothing in glorifying Grujo & Co and demonizing everyone else.They were even mentioned in the tapped conversations,how all news were ordered by DPMNE etc.

2) The presented number of a 50% slash is utter bullshit. Numbers are manipulated and distorted to whatever suits their need when the "proper" method is used.More on how unemployment rate is artificially deflated here: http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...7&postcount=20

3) This might surprise you, but there was never a lack of job vacancies in Stip nor in Macedonia in general.There is work,but it is not paid.In this segment,the new openings fail to contribute to the biggest problem of the random Macedonian citizen - higher salaries.The jobs created (the much-praised foreign investments) are no better than the jobs that already exist.Furthermore,the work conditions in these foreign investments are humiliating to say the least.More on how Macedonian workers are treated there,here:http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...mployment+rate
Moreover,the job vacancies are balanced out when a new company opens and at the same time another goes out of business.There are companies that start working and others that close down daily here.So the new openings get balanced out by the closing of another company.
I'd know these things,I live in Stip my whole life.

4) Why did you think I was unemployed in the first place? If you posted this link in order for me to apply then thanks,very thoughtful of you.But I already work.The internet bill won't pay itself you know

[Gocka]

It is absolutely hypocritical to demand that Macedonians currently in ROM stay and fix the problem. Personally my gripe is that for too long, and this goes way back to even older generations. Macedonians don't attempt to better themselves or their country while they are still living there. They don't believe in sacrifice or incremental improvements. While you are waiting around for your chance to emigrate you might as well leave behind something positive, that is what is lacking. If you need to leave in order to achieve your potential, then by all means, strive for that. But there are so many Macedonians who never leave, but also never do anything to help themselves or ROM along the way. I hope Dragan does make it to the destination of his choice, and I would love to continue to hear from him about what he thinks he has gained or lost in the process.

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

It does suck and we both understand.
And we in the Diaspora are the result of people who said it sucked, understood it and subsequently chose to leave Macedonia behind.

Personally, I find it hypocritical to be critical! The Macedonians will be rewarded for their efforts or lack of efforts. It certainly is up to them to forge their destiny. It really needs to become something more than personal for them. The struggle is real and should bind Macedonians far more than it has at this point. It really astounds me that Macedonia has not improved at all over the last 20 years.

I can't help feeling sorry for our brothers and sisters over there and hope they develop a solution for themselves that includes remaining there (as Macedonians).

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by DraganOfStip

That sentence is something I tried not to use in order to avoid further confrontation with some members,but Chris wrote it now anyway and he is correct there.
With all the "stop complaining and running away, stay there & fight to prosper" narrative,some members here obviously forget that at some point in their lives,their ancestors did exactly the same thing that they criticize me of - eventually gave up and moved abroad.

There is also another side to the argument. It could be argued that the more capable Macedonians had the ability to leave Macedonia and that Macedonia lost many of its most resourceful people. Right now it seems almost everyone wants to leave, but only a few will achieve their dream. A bit of luck and some resourcefulness will probably get them out of Macedonia.

The same people who migrated to Australia last century generally outperformed the average Australian citizen financially. Usually they had multiple land holdings and genuinely did quite well for themselves (even if many of them lived like peasants!). They may have done well for themselves in Macedonia if they pretended to be Greeks or DPmNE supporters or whatever was necessary to prosper in whatever part of Macedonia.

But, they left and placed Macedonia's destiny in the hands of those that remained. And they may be less resourceful and less capable and therefore might do well to listen the people in the Diaspora who have proven themselves and have prospered in a more democratic environment.

Of course this is not meant to be a slur against all Macedonians in Macedonia. But it does provide a (kind of) counter to my own original statement.

[Tomche Makedonche]

As disheartening as it may be in general, particularly since today we currently have a country of our own, I could never begrudge someone for wanting to leave that sh*thole for the prospect of a better life abroad.

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

Australia was definitely a very different place in the 1950's when my grandparents and parents came here. They were foreign and despised here and it took a long time to earn the right to be treated as equals.

[DraganOfStip]

Originally Posted by Tomche Makedonche

However, phrases like “take the easy way out” only highlights the ignorance that is prevalent amongst those in RoM towards the trials and tribulations experienced by the first generations of the diaspora when trying to settle abroad. There was nothing “easy” about establishing the communities that exist today in Australia, and although the struggle to have the individual accepted and treated as an equal by Australian society has come a long way since the first generation arrived, it nevertheless still continues even today.

Just to clarify,i didn't say that moving abroad is the easy way out.That is what some members here criticize a RoM citizen that wants to get out to be doing instead of fighting and working to make life in RoM better for all.I intentionally put the quotation marks to the phrase.
Sorry if I wrongly expressed myself there.

[vicsinad]

Goce Delchev once wrote, "I am strong and I'll conquer everything except my conscience."

Good words to heed whether we're in the Republic or outside of it.