Paionia and Paionians

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by Вардарец

#1
#2

Yes, i am aware that the second map predates the first, it can be easily seen.
BUT, did the Macedonians drove the Paeonians from the Solun region completely, or just politically? That's a question which can not be solved.
Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.

In fact according to Thucydides the various tribes were expelled from what became kingdom of Macedon of the Argeads.

As u see in the map...



Pierians were kicked eastwards (Pieria and Pieris) ...the same for Edones expelled from Mygdonia ,Bottiaioi were kicked from Pella region to north Chalkidike ,Paionians from the lower bank of Axios to the upper.

#3

Yup and it is true. I, DO believe that he was speaking about the inhabitants of the thema Bulgaria (south Larisa, upwards Belgrade). It could not be possible that all those people there be the descendants of Kubrat's 100.000 horseman horde. Alas, the center of Bulgaria was the thema Paristrion, were those Paristrians ethnically, or just politically.

Am i correct?

Hm ..not exactly..
Tzetzes (1110-1180) wrote his history when "themata" were replaced by other divisions.
Also he is speaking about the Bulgarian nation in his quote ,not about thema.
http://http://books.google.com/books...#PRA2-PA516,M1

#4

Will be my wishful thinking if i say Philip conquered the hellenic states, and you state your "historical" facts that Philip united the hellenes at Heronea?

Neither of them is true.
Philip of Macedonia together with his allies from Epirus ,Thessaly ,Phocis ,Aetolia and Epicnemedian Locris defeated Athenians and Thebans.

That's all.
Even inside Athens there was a pro and an anti-macedonian party.

If you are speaking about the later independence of the Paeonians, why not to speak about the Orestians(Core Macedonian tribe), which also gained independence for their war contributions against the Macedonian state from the Romans? Orestians lived in the area around Kostur. Were they too, separate from the Macedonians?

No it is NOT the same.

For example the army of Alexander was made up of the core-the Macedonians ,formed in "Taxeis" of Phalangites pezetairoi and "Ilai" of companions (Etairoi).
The phalangites -infantry that followed Alexander deep in Asia was made up exclusively of men from Upper Macedonia (thats modern Greek West Macedonia and Bitola region)-Orestis, Lyncestis, Elimiotis ,Tymphaia.
The infantry from Lower Macedonia remained in the kingdom.

On the other hand Paionians ,as well as Agrianes,Thracians and Greek Hoplites ,formed their own contingents within the army ,fighting in their traditional way.
Paionians were light cavalry.But different from the Macedonian.

These regions of Upper Macedonia (Orestis,Lyncestis,Eordaia,Elimiotis,Derriopos,Tym phaia)didn't have a king-even semi-autonomous ,some after Alexander I ,and other after Philip II reign.

Also Argos in Orestis ,was probably the birthplace of the Macedonian royal house.(and not Argos of southern Greece)

Paionia was part of Macedonia after Philip took over it.

I already wrote ...this was only after the Roman conquest.
Even during Philip's rule ,Paionians had their own king -Lycaeios (a coin was presented in "macedonian archaeology"
....
Lycaeios (359-340 BC),
Patraios (340-315 BC),
Audoleon (315 -286 BC),
Ariston (286 BC),
Leon (278-250 BC) and Dropion (250-230 BC) ..last mentioned Paionian king.

[Struja]

Originally Posted by Вардарец

Macedonians waged many wars with the surrounding states and kingdoms after the establishment of the Macedonian kingdom. They did it mostly with the Thracians, so the borders were frequently changing. Does that mean that the local Macedonian/Paeonian/Thracian population disappeared ? I do think NO.

I have to agree with this...

Originally Posted by toothpaste

In fact according to Thucydides the various tribes were expelled from what became kingdom of Macedon of the Argeads.

and toothpaste follow on quote:

Originally Posted by toothpaste

Pierians were kicked eastwards (Pieria and Pieris) ...the same for Edones expelled from Mygdonia ,Bottiaioi were kicked from Pella region to north Chalkidike ,Paionians from the lower bank of Axios to the upper.

I hate to tell you this but the people that were "kicked out" were the Greek colonies in these regions. The local population was never expelled as you say… so dont mix the two.

Originally Posted by toothpaste

No it is NOT the same.

For example the army of Alexander was made up of the core-the Macedonians ,formed in "Taxeis" of Phalangites pezetairoi and "Ilai" of companions (Etairoi).
The phalangites -infantry that followed Alexander deep in Asia was made up exclusively of men from Upper Macedonia (thats modern Greek West Macedonia and Bitola region)-Orestis, Lyncestis, Elimiotis ,Tymphaia.
The infantry from Lower Macedonia remained in the kingdom.

On the other hand Paionians ,as well as Agrianes,Thracians and Greek Hoplites ,formed their own contingents within the army ,fighting in their traditional way.
Paionians were light cavalry.But different from the Macedonian.

Why are you talking about the army?? And its formation what’s that got to do with it? That’s a poor example there toothpaste. But if fact the Macedonian army used/copied the Thessaly formation and what now the Macedonians must be Greeks? The reason why Paionians were a light cavalry in alexanders army is because they were the scouts of army! they were always in the front line lookouts.

[sydney]

Originally Posted by Struja

The reason why Paionians were a light cavalry in alexanders army is because they were the scouts of army! they were always in the front line lookouts.

did they have an interpreter to relay the messages to the macedonian core? i would suggest not. is this the point where we must now start realising that the paeonians were also greeks, just like the macedonians? because we are told by the greeks macedonians spoke greek and that's enough to close the case. but even further north to dardania, and beyond to the danube, did they also speak greek?

i'm keen to understand from members here about how communication functioned in this period. we know a lot about macedonian rule over greece and into persia, but what about to the north?

[Вардарец]

A short reply,

Taken from our friend Stamos from Maknews

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle4728277.ece



Judging from the time frame, these are most likely Paeonian graves, I highly doubt they are Macedonian. Don't forget that Pella was originally a Paionian city. Darron was a Paeonian God, and there is a temple dedicated to him at Pella, located in the Southern portion. The older city was located in the area of the temple, south of the mosaics and the main archaeological site.

Stamos

[toothpaste]

Originally Posted by Struja

I hate to tell you this but the people that were "kicked out" were the Greek colonies in these regions. The local population was never expelled as you say… so dont mix the two.

THUCYDIDES ,HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESEAN WAR

BOOK II ,(99)

(99) Having mustered at Doberus, they made ready to descend over the heights into the plains of Macedonia, which were the territory of Perdiccas. There is an upper Macedonia, which is inhabited by Lyncestians, Elimiots, and other tribes; these are the allies and tributaries of the lower Macedonians, but have kings of their own. The maritime country which we now call Macedonia was conquered and formed into a kingdom by Alexander the father of Perdiccas and his ancestors the Temenidae, who originally came from Argos.59 They defeated and drove out of Pieria the Pierians, who afterwards settled in Phagres and other places at the foot of Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon; the land which lies under Mount Pangaeus towards the sea is still called the Pierian vale. They also drove out of Bottia, as it is called, the Bottiaeans, who are now the neighbours of the Chalcidians, and they acquired a narrow strip of Paeonia by the river Axius, reaching down to Pella and the sea. Beyond the Axius they possess the country called Mygdonia reaching to the Strymon, out of which they have driven the Edonians. They expelled from the country still called Eordia the Eordians, of whom the greater part perished, but a small remnant of them settled in the neighbourhood of Physca; and from Almopia the Almopians. They and their subjects further subdued and still hold various places belonging to other tribes, Anthemus, Grestonia, Bisaltia, and a great part of the original Macedonia. But [the whole of this country is now called Macedonia, and was under the rule of Perdiccas the son of Alexander at the time of the invasion of Sitalces.

[Вардарец]

Tooth... So many tribes. What i say, is that they were the same people. Pretty basic?

[toothpaste]

Vardarets, your opinion or belief is respected by me...but not taken really seriously ,since its just so-A personal BELIEF.

As you saw it was proved several times false.

I could go on a debate only if real arguments or sources were presented.

[Volk]

The maritime country which we now call Macedonia was conquered and formed into a kingdom by Alexander the father of Perdiccas and his ancestors the Temenidae, who originally came from Argos

This is simply based on the "philhellene's" attempt to prove his 'greekness'.
Which was rejected by the greeks and rejected by us

[Вардарец]

Toothie,

I lost my will to debate with Greeks long ago.
For me it's a useless waste of time, at the end, i will stay on mine beliefs, you on yours.

As you have mentioned, the upper Macedonian tribes, had their own kings. Ofcourse they did, as it is the case with the Paeonians.

What may actually prove that they were different, it will be a couple of quotes from ancient times, stating that they needed translators to understand each others.

[Struja]

please!

Originally Posted by toothpaste

[size="5"]

THUCYDIDES ,HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESEAN WAR

BOOK II ,(99).

He writes about the Peloponnesian war but yet his talking about the great Thracian invasion of 429bc. The question is was he there to see it happen??? No.

Now we know why the Macedonians retaliated against the Thracian and Greek import tribes in the region!

Well, Thucydides identifies himself as an Athenian but Herodotus tells us that Thucydides's father's name, Όloros, was connected with Thrace and Thracian royalty and combining all the fragmentary evidence available, it seems that his family had owned a large estate in Thrace, one that even contained gold mines.

Could this be a political propaganda motive from the 5th ct against the Macedonians? hint: there was a Thracian and Athenian alliance during this time! but history tell us Perdiccas did kick a few people out of the regoin, well all I can say is "dont fuck with the Macedonians"