Mike Ilitch/Ilievski

[osiris]

Wikipedia is very unreliable and can be manipulated by well meaning but deluded people. In his ancestral village there are no ilievskis his family were shuntov.

[Risto the Great]

When I saw some tattoo of a Macedonian with nothing more than "SKI" on it. It occurred to me how divisive and unreliable that suffix is. It has always existed amongst Macedonians. It existed on my Maternal side (not from modern day Republic btw) but there are so many more true Macedonian names that exist without it. If one has to have "ski" on the end of one's name to qualify for supreme Macedonianness, then it would be a very sad day.

[julie]

My maternal side of the family from the Aegean did not have ski as a suffix.
My paternal side in the family from RoM had the ski suffix placed on their names in Tito's era. The beginning of the name came from my great grandfather's christian name, and the ski suffix was placed as an identifier according to dad , meaning "son of" much like the Scottish prefix "MaC"

My maternal side their names were forceably changed by the fascist Greek regime in their efforts to exterminate the existence of our people

It does not matter what someone's surname is and what suffix they have in their name, they are all Macedonian

[Soldier of Macedon]

I don't believe the suffix is divisive at all, except in those cases where certain Macedonians wish for it to be divisive. One doesn't have to have the suffix to prove he is Macedonian, but at least there is some historical validity to it where it concerns Macedonian surnames, unlike those foreign suffixes forced on to our people in Greece.

I also don't buy into the stories that Macedonians in the republic were 'forced' to adopt the suffix, when half of Macedonia still uses a historical patronym with the ov/ev suffixes. Macedonians (mostly in the west of the republic) either willingly adopted it to avoid similarities with other Slavic-speaking peoples in the Balkans, or were given that name by default by the authorities. However, I have never heard of a case where a Macedonian was forced to retain the 'ski' suffix, or denied the right to change it to a patronym-type surname.

[Risto the Great]

I know ethnic Albanians who were given "ski" endings so I am pretty sure there was an agenda in Macedonia at one point in time.

I think it is divisive if people somehow equate it with being more Macedonian. Which the bozo with the "ski" tattoo clearly had in mind. Having a "ski" suffix seems to provide a level of comfort to some of the less intellectual Macedonians from the republic.

[osiris]

There are many forms of pressure sometimes a suggestion can be subtle and yet menacing enough to make one do what they might otherwise not do. Ski is definately Macedonian but was it as widespread as it is now I cannot say outside the villages I know personally. I have also noticed that the leadership of the original VMRO had very few surnames ending in ski was that representative of the general population I think it was. In the ten or so villages that I am familar with on both sides of the current border the suffix ski would be less than ten percent of the original ottoman era family names now in the republic it is practically one hundred percent. I urge people who still have grandparents who have some knowledge about their local histories to find out what the situation was like in their area

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Risto the Great

I know ethnic Albanians who were given "ski" endings so I am pretty sure there was an agenda in Macedonia at one point in time.

There was indeed an agenda, and it was merely a process formalisation. It took place in other countries also, so nothing odd there, especially given that many people in Macedonia didn't have formalised surnames at the time. Not all ethnic Albanians in Macedonia had 'ski' suffixed surnames. Of those that you know, how many were denied the right to keep their own surnames (or patrynoms), or revert back to them?

I think it is divisive if people somehow equate it with being more Macedonian.

Anybody who does that is an ignorant fool.

[Vangelovski]

Claiming that having 'ski' on the end of a surname is necessary in order to meet some 'standard' of Macedonianess is as ludicrous, in my view, as some who have claimed that knowledge of the Macedonian language is necessary in order to be a Macedonian. But all of this raises an impossible question (one which has been discussed on this forum in the past) - what is a Macedonian?

[Risto the Great]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

what is a Macedonian?

Me.
Of course.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Originally Posted by Vangelovski

But all of this raises an impossible question (one which has been discussed on this forum in the past) - what is a Macedonian?

I don't see it as an impossible question. Here are my thoughts from another thread regarding the indicators of ethnicity:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2333

Primary Indicators

Language is most significant, one of the very foundations of ethnicity is the native tongue of a people. The native language of an individual or an individual's family, as passed on through generation to generation, without the requirement of an education. One example is the native language of the Macedonians in the Macedonian state and that of the Macedonians in the Greek state, which is the same, the difference relating only to the official languages of the state and church.

Culture refers to a commonality in traditions, habits and characteristics, and is also demostrated by common phrases, beliefs, etc. Some simple examples would be the traditional dances and songs that are shared by the Macedonians in both the Macedonian and Greek states, but which are foreign to the non-Macedonians in the Greek state.

Ancestry is descending from the same people, for example, the Macedonians of the Greek state and the Macedonians of the Macedonian state have the same origins, their grandfathers, great grandfathers, etc share all the primary indicators.

Kinship, meaning relatives and friends that share the same primary indicators, or, through another dimension the case of the divided Macedonian people on both sides of the artificial border of 'northern Greece'.


Secondary Indicators

Geography indicates descent from a particular region or greater region that has a shared historical commonality relative to the native population. Due to the Greek state occupying and absorbing a large portion of Macedonian territory in the 20th century, and their policy of settling in excess of 600,000 fleeing Christians from Asia, this particular indicator can be manipulated, but only to a certain degree. The people of Skopje, which is in the extreme north of the Macedonian state, are still geographically closer to the geographically Macedonian city of Salonika located in the Greek state, than are the people of Crete, the Peloponnese and even Athens. In addition to this, they have lived in the Macedonian region for centuries as opposed to the case of the new settlers, who have not yet lived a century in Macedonia. Furthermore, prior to the Greek usurpation of Macedonian territories, the Macedonians in Macedonia were relatively free to communicate, congregate and live among each other in their territory, which allowed for a continuation of commonalities in all primary indicators.

Religion also plays a strong factor but it is not an exclusive necessity, because commonality in culture trascends religious affiliation whereas commonality in religion without the primary indicators is of limited significance. For example, while the Macedonians of the Islamic faith may share some similarities with Muslims from Asia, their culture is largely the same as Macedonians of the Christian faith. Similarly, while the Macedonians in the Greek state are (by force) a part of the Greek Orthodox Church, on all levels the primary indicators demonstrate an obviously closer proximity to the Macedonians of the Macedonian Orthodox Church, as opposed to their Greek co-relgionists.