Paleo-Balkan & Balto-Slavic - Common Proto Language - Page 5

osiris · 03-14-2011, 05:53 AM

Thank u Slovak couldn't similar comparisons be made between Slavic and German or Greek or even Latin. I thought the Celtic Latin link was a theory only. What about Celtic and German . All indo European languages have similarities but I would have thought the Thracian Slavic one is more obvious than the italo Celtic one. I will have a look T the link thanks again.

Delodephius · 03-14-2011, 06:06 AM

Well, the Continental Celtic languages are similar to Italic languages, but not so much the Insular Celtic (Irish, Scottish, Welsh) and some scholars insist they are two separate language groups, calling the first simply Celtic or Italo-Celtic, and the other Brythonic or simply British.
Germanic languages however show more similarity with Balto-Slavic than Celtic.

Soldier of Macedon · 03-14-2011, 07:32 AM

Here is a suggestion on how PIE may have branched out at different phases. Initially, Proto Anatolian marked the first departure from PIE, and after that the centum sound-shift emerged, which marked the second departure, this time from Proto Italo-Celtic. That left Proto Balkan-Slavic-Baltic-Aryan which underwent the satem sound-change some time later, and marked the last departure from PIE. In areas where centum and satem reflexes were present in neighbouring languages, it is likely that they competed. So, at this point, the following exist:

- Proto Anatolian Group
- Proto Italo-Celto Group
- Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan-Aryan Group

I will leave aside Anatolian from here. As it was still in the early phases, the different groups would still be sharing significant similarities, so it is possible that Proto Germanic, for example, came about as a result of a hybrid between Proto Italo-Celtic and Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan-Aryan, or it may have just branched off from one of the previous groups and then had intense interaction with other languages during the early period immediately after. Proto Hellenic and Proto Armenian may also be considered in a similar way, or perhaps they themselves formed Proto Armeno-Hellenic which belongs to the list above (but this would mean that Armenian was once centum and now satem). Either way, at this point there were probably:

- Proto Italic
- Proto Celtic
- Proto Hellenic
- Proto Armenian
- Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan
- Proto Aryan (Indo-Iranian)
- Proto Germanic

At some point afterwards those groups split into the IE sub-families know today, but there was still yet another language to come about, and that is Proto Albanian, which must have derived its core IE vocabulary from a combination of two or more of the above groups.

This is just a suggestion but it seems to make sense.

Onur · 03-14-2011, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osiris

I haven't heard of a relationship between Celtic and Latin. I also don't know if the Iberian languages were Celtic . I was under the impression that Latin was the language the romance languages originate from without much non Latin input.

On the contrary, Latin was largely derived from other languages. For example, what we call as "Latin script" today, is actually the Etruscan script except only 3-4 letters which itself related with Greek script. Also large part of Latin vocabulary comes from Etruscan and ancient Greek languages. Etruscan wasn't even an Indo-European but an agglutinative language. It`s widely believed that the heavy suffix usage in Latin is the result of the influence from Etruscan language. Already, none of the languages in the world develops by on its own. All of them gets effected from each other by various degree, some more and some less.

Btw, Celts had settlements in central Anatolia too. They came from Balkans and there are several tombs and castles in Turkey today which remained from the galatians, celts. AFAIK, they eventually assimilated among various peoples of Anatolia and disappeared after Roman rule.

Delodephius · 03-14-2011, 12:47 PM

Quote:

It`s widely believed that the heavy suffix usage in Latin is the result of the influence from Etruscan language.

That's not true. All Indo-European languages were heavily suffixed. Slavic and Baltic languages are still so. It was a common stage in their development, not a thing in Latin specifically.

Onur · 03-14-2011, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas

That's not true. All Indo-European languages were heavily suffixed. Slavic and Baltic languages are still so. It was a common stage in their development, not a thing in Latin specifically.

The preference over articles/prefixes to suffixes or vice versa cant be a stage in the development of languages. It`s one of the main characters which defines the family of languages. So, people usually doesn't give up using suffixes and start to use articles/prefixes. It stays as it is and develops according to it. If a switch between article/prefix and suffix occurs(this is an extreme case in the world of linguistics), then this is sign of heavy interaction and possibly a fusion of two different language in one stage of it`s history.

As far as i know Latin has more suffixes than other IE languages. At least i am sure about English and French. Also, i am talking about heavy suffix usage in terms of IE family of languages since IE system is based on prefixes and article usage. If you wanna see what is the real heavy suffix usage, you can see that in Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish etc.

Also, you could at least google about Etruscan influence in Roman before saying ""no"!.

Delodephius · 03-14-2011, 02:40 PM

Yes, I know about Turkic and Uralic languages, but these are less suffixed than Slavic or Baltic languages (Macedonian and Bulgarian not included) or such old languages like Sanskrit or Avestan.

Only some modern IE languages use prefix/article type grammar, mostly Western European and Indo-Iranian. Old IE languages plus modern Slavic and Baltic languages were heavily suffixed (inflected is a better term). Old English, Old Norse, Gothic, Ancient Greek, Latin, Avestan, Old Persian, Sanskrit, Pali, Hittite, Tocharian, Old Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, etc. these were all heavily inflected languages. Didn't you know that? The switch to prefix/article grammar is quite common in linguistics.

Delodephius · 03-14-2011, 03:51 PM

SoM, I have started making a table of all nominal case endings in all IE languages. Once I'm done I'll convert it into a PDF file and post it here. I don't know how long it will take, but I already see many similarities between different languages. For example, the case endings in neuter are almost the same in OCS and Sanskrit.

Soldier of Macedon · 03-14-2011, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas

SoM, I have started making a table of all nominal case endings in all IE languages. Once I'm done I'll convert it into a PDF file and post it here. I don't know how long it will take, but I already see many similarities between different languages. For example, the case endings in neuter are almost the same in OCS and Sanskrit.

That would be good reference material Slovak, I look forward to it. I have been looking into Macedonian case endings over the last few weeks and how they have been replaced by the definitive article suffix, here is what I have compiled so far - let me know if there are any which are incorrect:

Nominative Case (names) - Branko, Petar, Andon, etc, they can either end in a vowel or consonant

Vocative Case (brat) - Bratu, Brate, Bato, Bate, Batka, Batko, Bratko, Bratchko

Locative Case (city) - Vo Soluna Grada, Prilepa Grada, etc, these are more common in archaic speech or song but still used today, although in most cases it has been replaced by the literary standard with a definitive article suffix that has 3 positions, ie; Gradot/ov/on Prilep/Solun.

Genitive Case (branko) - Kreni zname brankovo, Jordan Brankov (patronym and surname), Brankovo (village name), Ene go deteto na/od Branka**

**The last example uses a preposition, and with nouns other than names the post-definitive article comes into place. Therefore, if we use the noun 'brat' instead of 'branko', it would be - Ene go deteto na brato(t). I have placed the 't' in brackets because many Macedonians drop this letter at the end of words with definitive article suffixes, which actually makes it sound closer to the cases which they replaced.

Dative Case (friend, branko) - Kai prijatelo(t), prijatelo(v), prijatelo(n), all of which use the definitive article suffix instead of the dative case, but with a name for the noun, one could say Kai Branka.

Accusative Case (jovan) - Go znam Jovana, bev so Jovana (?)

Like I said, I am not sure they are all correct, if you spot anything that isn't, let me know.

Delodephius · 03-16-2011, 04:16 AM

Well based on my knowledge of Old Slavonic I theorize that cases in Macedonian would be something like this:

sg. masculine
N. grad / Branko
G. grada / Branka
D. gradu / Branku
A. grad / Branka
L. gradje/grada* / Branku
I. gradom / Brankom
*(depending on the dialectical evolution of ě)

pl.
N. gradi
G. grad/gradov
D. gradom
A. gradi
V. gradi
L. gradih/gradoh
I. grad(a)mi

sg. feminine
N. žena
G. žene
D. ženi
A. ženu
V. ženo
L. žene/žena
I. ženom

pl.
N. žene
G. žen(a)
D. ženam
A. žene
V. žene
L. ženah
I. žen(a)mi

03-14-2011, 06:06 AM	#42
Delodephius Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia Posts: 736	Well, the Continental Celtic languages are similar to Italic languages, but not so much the Insular Celtic (Irish, Scottish, Welsh) and some scholars insist they are two separate language groups, calling the first simply Celtic or Italo-Celtic, and the other Brythonic or simply British. Germanic languages however show more similarity with Balto-Slavic than Celtic. __________________ अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्। उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥ This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count. But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

03-14-2011, 07:32 AM	#43
Soldier of Macedon Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Macedonian Outpost Posts: 13,660	Here is a suggestion on how PIE may have branched out at different phases. Initially, Proto Anatolian marked the first departure from PIE, and after that the centum sound-shift emerged, which marked the second departure, this time from Proto Italo-Celtic. That left Proto Balkan-Slavic-Baltic-Aryan which underwent the satem sound-change some time later, and marked the last departure from PIE. In areas where centum and satem reflexes were present in neighbouring languages, it is likely that they competed. So, at this point, the following exist: - Proto Anatolian Group - Proto Italo-Celto Group - Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan-Aryan Group I will leave aside Anatolian from here. As it was still in the early phases, the different groups would still be sharing significant similarities, so it is possible that Proto Germanic, for example, came about as a result of a hybrid between Proto Italo-Celtic and Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan-Aryan, or it may have just branched off from one of the previous groups and then had intense interaction with other languages during the early period immediately after. Proto Hellenic and Proto Armenian may also be considered in a similar way, or perhaps they themselves formed Proto Armeno-Hellenic which belongs to the list above (but this would mean that Armenian was once centum and now satem). Either way, at this point there were probably: - Proto Italic - Proto Celtic - Proto Hellenic - Proto Armenian - Proto Balto-Slavic-Balkan - Proto Aryan (Indo-Iranian) - Proto Germanic At some point afterwards those groups split into the IE sub-families know today, but there was still yet another language to come about, and that is Proto Albanian, which must have derived its core IE vocabulary from a combination of two or more of the above groups. This is just a suggestion but it seems to make sense. __________________ In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

03-14-2011, 02:40 PM	#47
Delodephius Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia Posts: 736	Yes, I know about Turkic and Uralic languages, but these are less suffixed than Slavic or Baltic languages (Macedonian and Bulgarian not included) or such old languages like Sanskrit or Avestan. Only some modern IE languages use prefix/article type grammar, mostly Western European and Indo-Iranian. Old IE languages plus modern Slavic and Baltic languages were heavily suffixed (inflected is a better term). Old English, Old Norse, Gothic, Ancient Greek, Latin, Avestan, Old Persian, Sanskrit, Pali, Hittite, Tocharian, Old Church Slavonic, Classical Armenian, etc. these were all heavily inflected languages. Didn't you know that? The switch to prefix/article grammar is quite common in linguistics. __________________ अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्। उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥ This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count. But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family. Last edited by Delodephius; 03-14-2011 at 02:46 PM.

03-14-2011, 03:51 PM	#48
Delodephius Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia Posts: 736	SoM, I have started making a table of all nominal case endings in all IE languages. Once I'm done I'll convert it into a PDF file and post it here. I don't know how long it will take, but I already see many similarities between different languages. For example, the case endings in neuter are almost the same in OCS and Sanskrit. __________________ अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्। उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥ This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count. But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

03-16-2011, 04:16 AM	#50
Delodephius Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Petrovecz Baciensis, Res Publica Iazygia Posts: 736	Well based on my knowledge of Old Slavonic I theorize that cases in Macedonian would be something like this: sg. masculine N. grad / Branko G. grada / Branka D. gradu / Branku A. grad / Branka L. gradje/grada* / Branku I. gradom / Brankom *(depending on the dialectical evolution of ě) pl. N. gradi G. grad/gradov D. gradom A. gradi V. gradi L. gradih/gradoh I. grad(a)mi sg. feminine N. žena G. žene D. ženi A. ženu V. ženo L. žene/žena I. ženom pl. N. žene G. žen(a) D. ženam A. žene V. žene L. ženah I. žen(a)mi __________________ अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्। उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥ This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count. But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

03-14-2011, 05:53 AM	#41
osiris Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,969	Thank u Slovak couldn't similar comparisons be made between Slavic and German or Greek or even Latin. I thought the Celtic Latin link was a theory only. What about Celtic and German . All indo European languages have similarities but I would have thought the Thracian Slavic one is more obvious than the italo Celtic one. I will have a look T the link thanks again.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)