Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

[Big Bad Sven]

On the subject of Macedonians being the “Same people” as Bulgarian slavs because their language is almost the “same” – people seem to forget that in the Balkans that the Croatian and Serbian language is more similar to each other then Macedonian and Bulgarian. Yet both serbs and croats are seen as a separate and unique people, and have separate and unique languages and cultures.
Czech and Slovak languages are almost identical and perhaps even more closer then Macedonian and Bulgarian.
Swedish, Danish and Norwegian is said to be mutually intelligible and these people have no problems understanding each other. Im not to sure if they are as close as serbo-croat or Macedonian-bulgarian.

Anyway I have to laugh when ever cyber bulgars start preaching about how Macedonians and Bulgarians are the same people – yet they forget about the facts such as the Bulgarian army killing Jane Sandenski, working with Serbia and Grease in defeating Macedonian freedom fighters in the 20s-30s and of coarse the war crimes that the nazi Bulgarian slavs committed towards the Macedonians in Vardar and Agean Macedonia.

[Big Bad Sven]

Originally Posted by ohridski

Sumuel’s empire was fairly large and from what I know it was referred to as the First Bulgarian Empire. I haven’t come across any sources that refer to him as Macedonian. Even if they were, I’m not sure how much help they’d be in determining the person’s ethnicity. The Macedonian dynasty in the Byzantium, for example, was actually ethnic Armenians from Macedonia.

There aren’t a thousand Macedonian heroes either. The point is, that most are shared between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

You are not looking hard enough, or have your head buried in the sand, there are numerous historians that call Samuels Empire as a macedonian Empire.

Kosovo was to remain under Bulgarian or Macedonian rulers until 1014-18, when the army of the Macedonian-based Tsar Samuel died, his empire broke up, and Byzantine power was fully re-established by a strong and decisive Emperor, Basil 'the Bulgar-killer'. For nearly two centuries after that, Kosovo would stay under Byzantine rule.

Noel Malcolm
Kosovo, a short history
Chapter 2


The oldest dated Slavic text is a gravestone inscription erected by Tsar Samuel of Macedonia in 993.

http://www.utexas.edu/cola/depts/lrc...ocsol-0-X.html


Under the third Tsar, Samuel, the eastern provinces were lost, but the Empire remained firmly seated in the west, with its capital at Ochrida, where it maintained its independence till 1018. It was thus definitely a Macedonian state, and Ochrida acquired in the tradition of the Macedonian Slavs a sentimental prestige which it still retains.

Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future
H. Brailsford
Page 96


The slav speaking empire of Tsar Samuil, he whose ruined fortress dominates the hills overlooking the town and the lake, was the prototypical Macedonian state, emerging for a fleeting historical moment between the alternating yokes of the Bulgars and Byzantines.

Salonica Terminus
Fred A. Reed
Page 190



And in regards to Bulgarian slavs having the same heroes as macedonians - well its not just bulgarian slavs that claim (im not using the word "share" as you do) macedonian heroes.

Albanians claim Pitu Guli as a albanian hero. Pitu Guli is also claimed by macedonians and Bulgarians.
Krale Marko claimed by macedonians,serbs and Bulgarians.
And finally the most famous people from macedonia - Alexander the Great and Philip of Macedon, they are claimed by Bulgarian slavs, "greeks", albanians and even serbs at one stage.

Macedonia does not "share" its heroes with modern bulgaria. Bulgarian slavs CLAIM and STEAL macedonian heroes and its rich history - just like the other looser neighboring countries that border macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The point is, that most are shared between Macedonia and Bulgaria.

And I asked you to name which one’s are from Bulgaria, all you could come up with was Samuel, I then asked you to refer me to a contemporary or medieval source that states Samuel’s birthplace – You came up with the following:

I haven’t come across any sources that refer to him as Macedonian.

That wasn't the question. If Samuel was from Bulgaria, as you seem to think but can't prove, then why would he ensure that all of the important elements of his state remain in Macedonia? You can't give any answer apart from some propagandist piece of Bulgarian garbage.

Yes 'Macedonian' is a different ethnicity than 'Bulgarian', today. But, as I’ve mentioned before, I think the differences are mostly political.

Macedonians have always been a different ethnicity from Bulgarians, and the differences are much deeper than just political. There are historical, linguistic, geographic and cultural circumstances that you choose to ignore, and then accuse others here of being ingorant when you do so. Stop contradicting yourself.

And, I’m not quite sure that you are all that familiar with Misirov’s work. He was both a proud Macedonian and a proud Bulgarian, or at least he identified himself as such.

Misirkov clearly states that Bulgaria is Macedonia's greatest demon, in complete contrast to your silly assertion. Again, important circumstances and factors are being ignored by yourself, which renders all of your arguments flawed. The use of the 'Bulgarian' name by Macedonians was political, same with other terms such as 'Greek', the people that these 'Bulgarians' from Macedonia considered their historical ancestors are all from Macedonian regions, not Bulgaria, and would not be considered as ancestry from actual Bulgars from Bulgaria.

From what I’ve read, his works were modified during the time of Yugoslavia to support Tito’s initiative in creating a new Macedonian state that would include Aegean Macedonia so that Yugoslavia would have access to sea in the south.

Wow, that must have been some reading. Would you care to enlighten us here with any proof to that assertion, or is this another one of those displays of 'objectivity' from you that we all seem to be lacking here?

Originally Posted by Big Bad Sven

Macedonia does not "share" its heroes with modern bulgaria. Bulgarian slavs CLAIM and STEAL macedonian heroes and its rich history

Exactly. Who knows, maybe ohridski can erect a statue in Macedonia of some real Bulgars like Asparuk and Omurtag saddling one of those donkeys from the Volga river, to give his veiled idiocy some credibility, he can even call it "ohridski and the broke back bulgars", lol.

[Bratot]

[Bratot]

Bulgarian church doesn't exist in 976 when Samoil restored Ochrid Archybishopy on the basis of Justiniana Prima and after obtaining the Pope's blessing, Samuel promoted the Macedonian Church to the rank of a patriarchate.

Bulgarian church was abolished in 971!

През 972 г. император Йоан Цимисхи унищожава политическата и църковна независимост на Източното българско царство.

Църковен Вестник, Издание на Българската Православна Църква, Година 103, брой 9 и 10, София, 1-30 май 2003, наслов “Българските патриарси през Средновековието” Александра КАРАМИХАЛЕВА)

[Pelister]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia reached the level of Patriarchate briefly during the reign of Samuel's Empire, after which it was demoted in rank to an Archbishopric by Basil (II) the Macedonian Emperor of East Rome.

It retained special rights and autonomy, and Basil even selected a Macedonian called Jovan from Debar to be the first Archbishop. Unfortunately, for a period afterwards all subsequent bishops were Greek-speakers, although, this never discouraged the local Macedonians from considering it their mother church. In reality, its degree of freedom could be interpreted as being of 'Patriarch' status as it was virtually independent and nearly always supported by much of the population in the Macedonian region during times of revolt and statehood, some outstanding instances being that of Tsar Samuel, King Marko and Metropolitan Theodosius.

The freedom of the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia and its willingness to stand behind local rulers, as did the population from the Macedonian region, demonstrates the importance of this institution for us as Macedonians.

I think so too. It drew its base from Macedonians.

And whether it was at times dominated by Greek-speakers, or was a "Patriarch" did not carry the same connotations it does in modern time.

The "nationalism" of the modern Church was not around then. Sure there was politics within the Church and its denominations, and jostling for position in terms of langauge, but as (the late) N.Oikonomides has shown in his essay "Levels of Literacy on Mt.Athos" the Churches were filled with native Macedonian-speakers, learning to scribe both in Greek and in Macedonian, even in the Greek-speaking monastic institutions.

[sonne]

here 1 more truth how Samoil wass nothing else besides Macedonian :

http://mn.mk/aktuelno/882-Makedonski...ako-trn-vo-oko

[Soldier of Macedon]

Welcome Sonne, thanks for the link, but I think it is more in relation to Dusan than Samuel, it looks like the same article that was recently posted by Bratot in this thread:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=2247

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikolaos_Oikonomides

Besides the Listes de préséance, his major works include seven volumes of the Archives de l' Athos, a multi-volume work of the documents of the monasteries of Mount Athos began by paul lemerle, as well as significant work on study and itemization of the extensive Dumbarton Oaks collection of Byzantine seals.

Pelister, I take it this is the fellow you are referring to. Can we get our hands on his sources to look more into these sections that you have cited concerning the Macedonian language in Athos?

Here is something more about him.

http://www.makedonija.info/ancient.html

Those historical testimonies are strengthened by the information of N.Oikonomides about the existence of more then 5,000 writings in Macedonian, collected within the frames of the Greek program KERA, but not published in order not to be of use to the "State of Skopje", referring to the Republic of Macedonia. Oikonomides fully denied allegations of the scientists, that written material in Macedonian had not been preserved. Since they write about the Macedonians and their language, and define their ethnic affiliation, they had to take into consideration the serious rebuke and indications of N. Oikonomides (N. Oikonomodes, Book Review, History Department, University of Chicago, 1988, p. 121-6). By the way, only as information and without any suggestion let it be known that at his first visit to Greece after this was published, Mr. Oikonomides died suddenly, and the Greek authorities explained that as alcohol abuse.

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2851567

[TrueMacedonian]

http://catalogue.nla.gov.au/Record/2541070