Kolokotronis the Albanian

[TrueMacedonian]

What is your source Carlin?

[Carlin]

TM -

Source #1:

ΒΛΑΧΟΙ vs γ�αικών 02.divx - YouTube

1:54-2:01 (last paragraph): "...ο αυθέντης των Βλάχων προς τον γέροντα Βλάχων.." -- "the lord of the Vlachs.." etc.

Source #2 (in Serbian):

http://www.scd-lunjina.org/znameniti_cincari/index.html

Copy and Paste:

Teodor Kolokotroni ( Ciorkina),
komandant svih ustanickih snaga na Peloponezu za vreme Grckog ustanka (1821- 1828) i istaknuti junak Cincara . U sastavu svojih elitnih trupa je imao 6000 farsheriota. 200 armatola je cinilo njegovu licnu gardu. Prema istoricaru Goudasu grcko oslobodjenje ne bi bilo moguce bez Kolokotronija. On je svet odusevio svojim herojstvom i zato su ga zvali " Kralj Cincara". Veliki heroji grckog ustanka, kapetani, armatoli su bili jos i :
Varnahioti, Rangu, Sturnari, Gavela, Staiti, Ciari, Caciandoni i drugi

.."they called him Lord/King of the Vlachs".

Although I'm not sure what "Ciorkina" refers to..? It seems that his real surname was Tserginis or Tsergini/Chergini; he grew up in a Peloponnesian village bearing a Slavic name.

Source #3:

This comes from the famous SKAI (Greek) documentary about Greek revolution in 1821, but also about the state of Greek society prior and after the revolution, and after independence. In one of the videos which I watched a few weeks ago, Thanos Veremis (which I have mentioned already on a couple of occasions), states that Kolokotroni was a πολύγλωσσων, that is MULTILINGUAL.

I would have to find the exact video though...
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc....1.xRHpWIJw62Y

[TrueMacedonian]

For your source number 3 years ago I posted something from a famous greek who said something along those lines, "Kolokotronis wanted a multi-lingual greece".

The other sources I am not sure about them. But one thing I agree with is that he is not at all an ethnic "hellene".

[George S.]

Fully asgree with that TM but the last thing the greeks need is to expose themselves that they are multilingual.That would be nothing more like releasing the cat to the pidgeons.That would really destroy it's gomogenous existence of a pure greece.I don't think that would be in its national interest.We know for the sake of their minorities it has long been overdue that they should recognize them but they won't.

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

For your source number 3 years ago I posted something from a famous greek who said something along those lines, "Kolokotronis wanted a multi-lingual greece".

The other sources I am not sure about them. But one thing I agree with is that he is not at all an ethnic "hellene".

Good point, and you are likely correct. Nevertheless, I think we can wrap this one up.

I'm fascinated by the fact that the Vlach language was spoken all over the Peloponnese and Attica in the 19th century (..and likely into the 20th century). Who knows how similar it was to the language of the Vlachs of Macedonia and Albania. What is even more interesting, but troubling at the same time, is that pockets of Slavic speakers (most likely) still existed in the Peloponnese roughly 200 years ago. Who knows what dialect it was and if it was related to Macedonian (the nearest Slavic language) in any way, or - it might have been as a separate Slavic language with its own grammar! Unfortunately, this cultural and historical wealth was not preserved. Moreover, the new state wiped it out deliberately and pursued policies to this effect.

Article 16, paragraph 2 of the Greek Constitution, which relates to the mission of education, which is determined: that it is the development of national and religious consciousness. This is done by adopting (creating/inventing) and celebrating national holidays, with parades, speeches, churchgoing, sanctification in schools, and teaching mainly History, Language and Religion. Fostering national and religious consciousness is not limited to a few classes, but they are spread across the spectrum of school knowledge.

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/pro.php?id=2807

[TrueMacedonian]

Originally Posted by Carlin

Good point, and you are likely correct. Nevertheless, I think we can wrap this one up.

I'm fascinated by the fact that the Vlach language was spoken all over the Peloponnese and Attica in the 19th century (..and likely into the 20th century).

Carlin the sources I have seen, especially from philhellenes like Hammond, state that the peloponnese was overwhelmingly Albanian. I am sure there were plenty of Vlachs to fill the holes in between and very possibly these were ArvanitoVlachs like those mentioned in Winnifrith's book. But the sources I have read and posted usually state that Albanian was the language most spoken in what would become modern "greece".

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian

Carlin the sources I have seen, especially from philhellenes like Hammond, state that the peloponnese was overwhelmingly Albanian. I am sure there were plenty of Vlachs to fill the holes in between and very possibly these were ArvanitoVlachs like those mentioned in Winnifrith's book. But the sources I have read and posted usually state that Albanian was the language most spoken in what would become modern "greece".

This is true, however, I believe that western and other travellers confused "Albanian" for "Vlach" in many cases. The truth is that most of the visitors were largely ignorant of either Vlach or Albanian (and even Slavic dialects) languages, and "confused" one for another without any malicious intent. So, when they came across people speaking either Vlach or Albanian, they classified them as "Albanians" (not to mention that many Arvanito-Vlachs likely spoke both languages). No less an authority than Edward Gibbon, stated that "the Wallachians still preserve many traces of the Latin language", which only shows how little he knew of Vlach grammar, vocabulary or the language in general -- which is now classified as a Romance or Neo-Latin tongue.

What all this means is that literary sources (whether ancient, medieval or recent) should be treated as simply 'Sources' to be analyzed and investigated, and not as 'Authority' or 'Gospels' to be accepted without question.

As the video above shows ('Source #1', unless it is a forgery) -- it appears that in the 19th century Vlachs were more numerous than Albanians in the Peloponnese. It also mentions Hellenized Slavs, which lead me to believe there were still bilingual Slavs in the Peloponnese as late as the 19th century.

I should also add the following. It seems that the reason western visitors saw "only Greeks" is because a significant proportion of Vlachs were bilingual and spoke both Vlach and Greek (.. and used only Greek for high-level communication and religious purposes). Some Albanians spoke Greek, but only a small minority. How else does one explain contradictions..? In one source we have only "Greeks" and in other "Vlachs", in the same localities! Here is an interesting quote from Sir Arthur Evans, whom the modern Greeks and Bulgarians love to cite for obvious reasons:

"It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the statistics rest on an artificial basis. The truth is that a large number of those described as Greeks are really Roumans."

Would it be so outlandish to speculate that the same process was happening with the Vlachs in Peloponnese, Attica, Aetolia, Acarnania, Thessaly and Epirus? It would explain why Kolokotroni wanted a "multilingual Greece".

[Soldier of Macedon]

The below link leads to an article written by a Golden Dawn member, who claims an Albanian connection to Kolokotronis.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=7213

[Carlin]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

The below link leads to an article written by a Golden Dawn member, who claims an Albanian connection to Kolokotronis.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...ead.php?t=7213

1) Before departing from this vain world, Kolokotronis wrote his will for his children and was blessed to see Collinos, his younger son, married to the grand daughter of Caradja, the Prince of Moldovlachia, saying the unparalleled phrase, “Now the fur coat has become an in-law with the cloak, the fez with the top hat, the Sovereign of the Vlachs with a Vlach of an old man!”

http://www.kolokotronis.org.gr/default.aspx?catid=151

2) Θ Κολοκοτρώνη: «σκατόβλαχο» τον αποκαλεί ο προύχοντας της Πελοποννήσου Κανέλλος Δεληγιάννης.

Rough translation -

Kolokotronis: Kanellos Deligiannis calls him "skatovlacho".

http://www.hellinon.net/GlossaAgoniston21.htm

[Carlin]

ΚΟΛΟΚΟΤΡΩΝΗΣ Ο ΒΛΑΧΟΒΑΣΙΛΙΑΣ = Kolokotronis King of the Vlachs

5:45 - 7:05

The title is self-explanatory and it tells us the following regarding Kolokotronis:

- He was a Vlach.
- As he was titled "King of the Vlachs" the majority of his followers and rebels of the "Greek Revolution" were Vlachs.
(- Georgakis Olympios, Ioannis Farmakis, Kasomoulis, Kitsos Tzavelas, Koloktronis, etc. were all Vlachs.)

ΚΟΛΟΚΟΤΡΩ�ΗΣ Ο ΒΛΑΧΟΒΑΣΙΛΙΑΣ - YouTube

Vlachs = Modern Greeks