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Old 12-08-2010, 12:42 AM   #11
makedonche
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Originally Posted by Onur View Post
Mate, do you see anything patriotic in this? This is simply terror. Maybe thats why Bulgarians left all the "credit" of this to the Macedonians after sending someone from Sofia to blow up 200 people? Who knows! Armenians was famous with their bombings in Salonika in those times. They were mainly targeting Jews and muslims in there. Maybe they were behind this.
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By "Ultimate Patriot" I was referring to his willingness to pay with his life for his beliefs/actions. I acknowledge your statement that it is "simply terror", I don't dispute that nor do I argue in it's favour.
It certainly opens the door for discussions at many levels - terrorism being one part- simultaneously - what on earth possesed this person to commit such an extreme act? " possibly this..."The Macedonians, driven to a frenzy of desperation by the cruelty of the Turks..."


Secondly the "Bulgarians" comment was purely an example of how Bulgarians like to claim everything Macedonian as theirs except anything that portrays them in a bad light!
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Old 12-08-2010, 12:52 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
A product of their time, but it sounds like retaliation to me. How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back? Who is the real terrorist here, Onur - Macedonians or Ottomans?

Is there are a specific clause in their charter that confirms this? I have heard stories about Jordan Piperkata carrying out such acts in response to atrocities committed on the Macedonians.
I thought it had something to do with Goce Delcevs death but then saw the date that it happened....2 days before he was killed.

Last edited by Louis Riel; 12-08-2010 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:12 AM   #13
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What an interesting read TM, a truely unique find.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:13 AM   #14
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very interesting information tm.
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Old 12-08-2010, 05:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post

Is there are a specific clause in their charter that confirms this? I have heard stories about Jordan Piperkata carrying out such acts in response to atrocities committed on the Macedonians.
the number of the Ottoman-Build Mosques that are still in function is speaking for itself.

And dont forget we had 2 Balkan and 2 World wars in between

For example, Bitola was the most damaged / destroed city in the WW1, not on Macedonian Soil, but worldwide...

but good thing to research, if there was some official document(s) to confirm that
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Old 12-08-2010, 01:49 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Serdarot View Post
i can understand it is not so easy to realise and to admit that your own nation commited crimes, but hey, if the Turks werenīt so cruel, maybe EU would be begging US to join the Ottoman Empire in the last 20 years

i hope you get the point
I am honest enough to declare what is terror and what is not, no matter who did it. If Ottoman authorities did similar stuff, yes that was terror too but i don't know if you realize that you are asking from me to declare Ottoman government`s actions as terrorism while you strictly deny to do same for your own??? You ask me to say what you don't.






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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
A product of their time, but it sounds like retaliation to me. How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back? Who is the real terrorist here, Onur - Macedonians or Ottomans?
Retaliation? I don't think that 200 people in mosque was responsible for something against Macedonians. Besides that, nothing can be an excuse for bombing 200 innocent people. If thats what happened then this is simply terror, nothing else. While i tell you that if Ottoman government did the same, then it was terror too but it`s clear that you guys are hesitant to say that if it`s done by your people.

Well, imho, it was probably done by Sofia or Athens but you wanna get the credit for the bombing of 200 people exclusively for Macedonia anyway. Not that i am hesitant to blame Macedonians for that but i still think that it was Athens or Sofia`s business cuz terror would help their aim in those times. Also, quite possibly that half of the killings and massacres blamed on to the Turks was actually done by Athens, Sofia and Belgrade. Like Germanos Karavangelis said that he hired dozens of assassins to kill all the non-Greek speaking clergy in Macedonia.


Nevertheless, I must say that your analogy is clearly wrong! If we accept your idea, then Al-Qaida attacks, Palestine suicide bombs are patriotism too.


Btw, i don't have any intention to argue about an incident of 100 years ago. What i am talking about is your hesitation to differentiate terrorism with patriotism. Terror is still not a good thing if it`s your own. Terror is terror no matter who does.

Last edited by Onur; 12-08-2010 at 02:02 PM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 02:43 PM   #17
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Althought there is no universal deffinition of a "terrorism", a group of people can have many different reasons or motives for their acts and while for someone they are freedom fighters for others they are terrorists.

"one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter"

Nowadays this term has gained mostly negative conotation, but we shouldn't look at the events from our past through the deffinitions given by FBI or CNN.

We don't know who exactly was in the mosque that time, we only rely on these media reports, which could also distort the truth.

It is very usual that one who has risked or sacrificed his life for our Macedonian movement is our hero and will be noted for his courage.
As it is normal the same person to be perceived as a terrorist by the Ottoman authorities for promoting the interests of an ethnic or religious group that is being oppressed by those authorities.

Using disproportional violence by such revolutionery groups is because the enemy armies are too strong, with the hope that will cause a pressure on the government to change their policy, to atract international attention etc. etc.

It is all a matter of means and capacity not of ideology.
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Old 12-08-2010, 03:48 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur View Post
I am honest enough to declare what is terror and what is not, no matter who did it. If Ottoman authorities did similar stuff, yes that was terror too but i don't know if you realize that you are asking from me to declare Ottoman government`s actions as terrorism while you strictly deny to do same for your own??? You ask me to say what you don't.
i donīt ask you to admit or declare something, m8

i simply pointed that "tnx to the cruelty of the authorities, the ppl were driven to take extreme measures"

as much i know, Macedonian fighters never attacked some Muslim or non-Macedonian villages, killing innocent/unarmed people (specialy woman and children)

and iīve read better the text on the picture earlier (i missed the mosque part in the first read...). it is wrong to target civilians in a religious object, no excuses about that... (no metter how oft the Turks or someone else burned our Churches / people before that)

about this specific incident - i have to get some more info before i continue to write about it.

it is hard to believe, both things, bombing Solunīs street and killing 2 000 people on it, and bombing a Mosque...

most of the Mosques were build on Destroed Churches, or simply beside the Church was build the minaret, and the Church was turned into Mosque. So to repeat myself, it is hard to believe such thing, i need more info...
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Last edited by Serdarot; 12-08-2010 at 03:54 PM.
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Old 12-08-2010, 04:12 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Serdarot View Post
about this specific incident - i have to get some more info before i continue to write about it.

it is hard to believe, both things, bombing Solunīs street and killing 2 000 people on it, and bombing a Mosque...

most of the Mosques were build on Destroed Churches, or simply beside the Church was build the minaret, and the Church was turned into Mosque. So to repeat myself, it is hard to believe such thing, i need more info...
Just leave it mate. It`s no use anymore. Salonika is in Greece now and neither Macedonians nor Turks lives in it anymore. So all that was for nothing in the end.

Just like i said above, i wish someone bold enough to abolish the empire would come up earlier than 1920, so we wouldn't live up to that point.

I also agree Bratot above.
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Old 12-09-2010, 11:14 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onur
Retaliation? I don't think that 200 people in mosque was responsible for something against Macedonians. Besides that, nothing can be an excuse for bombing 200 innocent people. If thats what happened then this is simply terror, nothing else. While i tell you that if Ottoman government did the same, then it was terror too but it`s clear that you guys are hesitant to say that if it`s done by your people.
I am not hesitant about it. This was carried out by Macedonians. It is not about seeking credit.
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Nevertheless, I must say that your analogy is clearly wrong! If we accept your idea, then Al-Qaida attacks, Palestine suicide bombs are patriotism too.
If anything is 'wrong', it is the disproportionate amount of terror the Macedonians received from the Ottomans. Onur, don't try and paint a rosy picture of what the Ottomans did in Macedonia over a century ago, and don't compare a few bombing to the mass murder, rapes, pillaging, etc that Macedonians endured from the Ottomans.

I will ask you again - How many Christian churches were burned by Ottoman Muslims in Macedonia, before these Macedonians decided to give some back?
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