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Old 06-19-2021, 12:17 AM   #831
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Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
Macedonians in Bulgaria: Denial of Macedonian minority is last remnant of totalitarian policies in EU

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https://english.republika.mk/news/ba...olicies-in-eu/

A group of organizations representing Macedonians in Bulgaria has published a report on the violation of the rights of Macedonians covering last year’s events. The report, published by the Macedonian International Human Rights Movement, cites numerous examples of violations of political rights by Bulgarian institutions, hate speech by senior officials and the media against Macedonians, and examples of how courts are creating legal mazes to prevent the registration of Macedonian organizations.

The report estimates that the situation of Macedonians in Bulgaria is unlikely to improve without serious external intervention, primarily by European institutions.

Denial and discrimination of the Macedonian minority is the last remnant of totalitarian policies in the European Union, say Macedonian organizations, which ask Bulgaria to urgently recognize the existence of ethnic minorities in the country, amend the law on registration of NGOs, annul the 2000 decision of the Constitutional Court and the 1990 Declaration of the Parliament which deny the existence of the Macedonian minority, and to implement the decisions of the European Court of Human Rights by allowing the registration of Macedonian organizations, reads the report.

Their 30-page report describes how the registration of Macedonian organizations such as the Ilinden organization is banned, despite the fact that in some of these cases, there are rulings of the European Court of Human Rights that are 20 years old. It also points out that Bulgaria has been condemned this year by the Committee for the respect of the obligations of member states in the Council of Europe, which called on Bulgaria to “take decisive action to implement the rulings of the European Court of Human Rights regarding the recognition of the right to freedom of association of persons wishing to promote the recognition of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria and to promote Macedonian culture… and to allow persons identifying themselves as ethnic Macedonians to register their associations and to refrain from the practice of refusing registration due to the non-recognition of the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria”.
It pains me to say this, but just like in Егејска, the Macedonian identity in Bulgaria has been 99.9% removed.

In fact, in Bulgaria the situation is more dire than in Greece as in Bulgaria some people will openly call themselves "Macedonians" but it is essentially a synonym for "Bulgarian." They mean it in the historical, geographical sense. When the Macedonians in Bulgaria say they are "Macedonian" they mean that they are Bulgarians from South-Western Bulgaria.

I don't know who these organizations are, but your rights in Bulgaria are solidified as a Macedonian because Bulgarians view the two as the same. If you say (and having spent time in Bulgaria, believe me I have many times), that you are Macedonian and not Bulgarian, and that the two are different, they'll simply look at you funny, laugh it off, and treat you like a confused little brother. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

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Old 06-19-2021, 12:38 AM   #832
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
Amidst the political turmoil in Bulgaria, Zaev requested a meeting with the leader of the Bulgarian Socialist Party. Here is how he characterised it.



And here is how she responded.



Translation:

It's ironic how these people talk about the supposed discrimination of "Bulgars in Macedonia" when they keep the Macedonians in Bulgaria under a perpetual state of repression. Even more ironic is that Zaev doesn't even bring them up in discussion as a response. The differences are clear. The Bulgars have a Bulgaria first policy. The northadonian regime has a Macedonia last policy. Who knows what these traitors are cooking up for their upcoming meeting with the EU.
Must be nice to have politicians such as these that are unwavering in protecting the national interest. Our guys don't have a clue.
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Old 06-19-2021, 12:46 AM   #833
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The news out of Bulgaria yesterday was rather confusing. Not sure what to believe anymore -- total chaos. Zaev said there was a "breakthrough" yesterday, and Macedonian media was reporting that a possible "roadmap"/"solution" was tabled which the Bulgarians are supposed to review now. The Macedonian government this morning denied those reports, saying that only "mutual trust and dialogue" was discussed yesterday. Bulgarian outlets are reporting this morning Zaev offered to declare that the Macedonian and the Bulgarian languages are the same.

Zaev offered to declare that the Macedonian and the Bulgarian languages are the same

URL:
https://english.republika.mk/news/ma...-are-the-same/

Bulgarian media outlets are reporting that a possible concessions Zoran Zaev is going to make to the Bulgarian side is to declare that the Macedonian language is identical to the Bulgarian. Zaev was in Sofia yesterday, for a desperate, last minute attempt to get Bulgaria to approve the opening of EU accession talks with Macedonia at the European Council next week.

The guest offered five versions of a compromise that would be included in a political declaration. One of them was a formula for the linguistic dispute that would state that Bulgarians and Macedonians speak a same language, but that it is internationally recognized as two separate languages, “24 Chasa” reported. The paper also reports that a declaration will be made that the two nations are “brotherly”. Bulgaria insists that the Macedonian nation recently emerged from the Bulgarian, under pressure of the Yugoslav authorities, and that the Macedonian language is similarly forcefully derived from the Bulgarian.

Zaev himself opened the door to adding the Bulgarian ethnic community in Macedonia to the Constitution, which already names the Albanians, Roma, Turks, Vlachs, Serbs and Bosniaks, along with the Macedonians.
Actually, I wouldn't mind this solution to the linguistic dispute. I can understand Bulgarian maybe 95% fluently, so sure, call them the same. This way Macedonian will still be an internationally recognized language, so who cares if they are labelled as "the same."

However, we all know how this will end. And that's with our language being known officially as "the Language of North Macedonia as per the constitution."
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Old 06-19-2021, 01:17 AM   #834
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Originally Posted by StefanTheGreat View Post
Actually, I wouldn't mind this solution to the linguistic dispute. I can understand Bulgarian maybe 95% fluently, so sure, call them the same. This way Macedonian will still be an internationally recognized language, so who cares if they are labelled as "the same."
No self-respecting Macedonian would ever agree with you. That solution, aside from being stupid, is a complete slap in the face of all the Macedonians that came before us and worked to study and demonstrate the individuality of the Macedonian language. Your supposed perspective on mutual intelligibility is based on anecdotal experience at best, or a lie at worst. It's like saying Macedonians who have often travelled to Serbia understand Serbian better. Well, duh. Macedonians that haven't travelled to Bulgaria, which is most of them, don't share your view. I have spoken Macedonian at home since a child and I have an interest in Balkan languages but even I have difficulty understanding much of what the Bulgars say on TV and radio, let alone 95%. Ditto for my relatives in Bitola and elsewhere. So no, don't call them the same. Literary Croatian and Serbian are much closer to each other than Macedonian and Bulgarian yet nobody in Croatia is desperate to make statements akin to those from Zaev. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, Macedonian is already an internationally recognised language.
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I don't know who these organizations are, but your rights in Bulgaria are solidified as a Macedonian because Bulgarians view the two as the same. If you say (and having spent time in Bulgaria, believe me I have many times), that you are Macedonian and not Bulgarian, and that the two are different, they'll simply look at you funny, laugh it off, and treat you like a confused little brother. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
Based on your statements, you're probably the one who is laughing it off. How can you not know about the Macedonian organisations in Bulgaria that are struggling for recognition, when you claim to be interested in Macedonian history and have been to Bulgaria so many times? How can you not be aware of the fact that Macedonians in that part of the world have taken Bulgaria to court several times for denying their rights? I'd say you're a Bulgar pretending to be a Macedonian. If you want to continue on this forum, my suggestion would be to come clean with your next reply, otherwise your presence here will break records for its brevity.
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Old 06-19-2021, 06:19 PM   #835
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Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
No self-respecting Macedonian would ever agree with you. That solution, aside from being stupid, is a complete slap in the face of all the Macedonians that came before us and worked to study and demonstrate the individuality of the Macedonian language. Your supposed perspective on mutual intelligibility is based on anecdotal experience at best, or a lie at worst. It's like saying Macedonians who have often travelled to Serbia understand Serbian better. Well, duh. Macedonians that haven't travelled to Bulgaria, which is most of them, don't share your view. I have spoken Macedonian at home since a child and I have an interest in Balkan languages but even I have difficulty understanding much of what the Bulgars say on TV and radio, let alone 95%. Ditto for my relatives in Bitola and elsewhere. So no, don't call them the same. Literary Croatian and Serbian are much closer to each other than Macedonian and Bulgarian yet nobody in Croatia is desperate to make statements akin to those from Zaev. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, Macedonian is already an internationally recognised language.

Based on your statements, you're probably the one who is laughing it off. How can you not know about the Macedonian organisations in Bulgaria that are struggling for recognition, when you claim to be interested in Macedonian history and have been to Bulgaria so many times? How can you not be aware of the fact that Macedonians in that part of the world have taken Bulgaria to court several times for denying their rights? I'd say you're a Bulgar pretending to be a Macedonian. If you want to continue on this forum, my suggestion would be to come clean with your next reply, otherwise your presence here will break records for its brevity.
Listen, I'm not a Bulgar. I am a realist. I love Macedonia as much as if not more than you. I've spent most of my life there as well and am very familiar with it. It is my homeland, the land of my birth and will always be home. However, everything in my post is the unfortunate reality. We are 25% Albanian. Most of our population is outside the country. We don't have a future as a country, what language exactly is there to protect? This pains me to say, but it is the truth.

Bulgarian and Macedonian is extremely similar. I promise you that Serbian, and especially Croatian are not nearly as close. This isn't some propaganda I've fallen for, it's a simple fact. I'm not even from a border region and still understand it near perfect. I say this not because I am anti-Macedonian, but to help you realize what we are up against.

If we can get Bulgaria to accept Macedonian as an international language, that is a win for us, plain and simple. Once more, the alternative is "The Language of North Macedonia as per the Constitution." We need to choose our battles carefully, and fight for attainable results. Otherwise, we will be left with nothing! Blind nationalism solves nothing; in fact it hurts us! This needs to be understood by people that supposedly love our homeland. Brother, understand, the love of Macedonia runs through my veins, but we need to be smart.

There is no serious Macedonian presence in Bulgaria, that I can absolutely promise you. This is a fantasy. 99% of people who self identify as Macedonian there simply mean they are Bulgarians from South-West Bulgaria. Also, when I said that Bulgarians see me as a silly little brother when I say our two countries are different, of course that makes me sad. But am I going to start a fight with them? Come on man! This is the belief of 100% of Bulgarians, genuinely. They don't hate us, they see us as confused and brainwashed.

Please do not tell me that I am not "self-respecting" and that I am spitting on my ancestors' memory, people that have died for this country. I am explaining the situation as it really is. If we are deceiving ourselves, then we have no chance at a future. We need to accept the tough reality. I love Macedonia and want a future for us.

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Old 06-19-2021, 07:35 PM   #836
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Originally Posted by StefanTheGreat View Post
Listen, I'm not a Bulgar. I am a realist. I love Macedonia as much as if not more than you. I've spent most of my life there as well and am very familiar with it. It is my homeland, the land of my birth and will always be home. However, everything in my post is the unfortunate reality. We are 25% Albanian. Most of our population is outside the country. We don't have a future as a country, what language exactly is there to protect? This pains me to say, but it is the truth.

Bulgarian and Macedonian is extremely similar. I promise you that Serbian, and especially Croatian are not nearly as close. This isn't some propaganda I've fallen for, it's a simple fact. I'm not even from a border region and still understand it near perfect. I say this not because I am anti-Macedonian, but to help you realize what we are up against.

If we can get Bulgaria to accept Macedonian as an international language, that is a win for us, plain and simple. Once more, the alternative is "The Language of North Macedonia as per the Constitution." We need to choose our battles carefully, and fight for attainable results. Otherwise, we will be left with nothing! Blind nationalism solves nothing; in fact it hurts us! This needs to be understood by people that supposedly love our homeland. Brother, understand, the love of Macedonia runs through my veins, but we need to be smart.

There is no serious Macedonian presence in Bulgaria, that I can absolutely promise you. This is a fantasy. 99% of people who self identify as Macedonian there simply mean they are Bulgarians from South-West Bulgaria. Also, when I said that Bulgarians see me as a silly little brother when I say our two countries are different, of course that makes me sad. But am I going to start a fight with them? Come on man! This is the belief of 100% of Bulgarians, genuinely. They don't hate us, they see us as confused and brainwashed.

Please do not tell me that I am not "self-respecting" and that I am spitting on my ancestors' memory, people that have died for this country. I am explaining the situation as it really is. If we are deceiving ourselves, then we have no chance at a future. We need to accept the tough reality. I love Macedonia and want a future for us.

Can you please show where in the Prespa agreement and Constitution that it states "The Language of North Macedonia".
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Old 06-19-2021, 08:40 PM   #837
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Can you please show where in the Prespa agreement and Constitution that it states "The Language of North Macedonia".
The point is that Bulgaria refuses to allow Macedonian to become an official language of the EU. They see Macedonian as a dialect of Bulgarian, and thus want to see it listed in all EU documents with an asterisk beside it stating that it is the Macedonian language, but only as per the constitution of Macedonia.

In essence, this relegates our language to a dialect that is only recognized within the borders of our country. Internationally, it would be a Bulgarian dialect that was altered by the Yugoslav authorities to distance the two peoples. This will be cemented once Zaev, as he promised, opens the vaults to expose Yugoslav anti-Bulgarian brutality. Saying the two languages are the same, but getting Bulgaria to recognize it as a language, is the better option for us. If this were to happen, the moment we start EU negotiations, our language would be legitimized.

If we could get away with this it would be a success for us, as I don't see Bulgaria budging on their veto considering the fact that 80% of them want it to continue until we say that our language is Bulgarian and that our nation's history starts in 1945, previously being Bulgaria.

This is a game of chess. Blindly spewing nationalism hurts us.
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Old 06-19-2021, 08:59 PM   #838
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The point is that Bulgaria refuses to allow Macedonian to become an official language of the EU. They see Macedonian as a dialect of Bulgarian, and thus want to see it listed in all EU documents with an asterisk beside it stating that it is the Macedonian language, but only as per the constitution of Macedonia.

In essence, this relegates our language to a dialect that is only recognized within the borders of our country. Internationally, it would be a Bulgarian dialect that was altered by the Yugoslav authorities to distance the two peoples. This will be cemented once Zaev, as he promised, opens the vaults to expose Yugoslav anti-Bulgarian brutality. Saying the two languages are the same, but getting Bulgaria to recognize it as a language, is the better option for us. If this were to happen, the moment we start EU negotiations, our language would be legitimized.

If we could get away with this it would be a success for us, as I don't see Bulgaria budging on their veto considering the fact that 80% of them want it to continue until we say that our language is Bulgarian and that our nation's history starts in 1945, previously being Bulgaria.

This is a game of chess. Blindly spewing nationalism hurts us.
Blindly spewing nationalism you say?
Man you really are naive. There is nothing nationalistic about defending our Macedonian language, history, culture, ethnicity etc. it’s being patriotic which is different from being nationalistic
You know it’s people like you and with your mentality that has put Macedonia in the position that it finds itself today. No one has the right to negotiate who I am and my Macedonian culture, ethnicity, language and history.
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Old 06-19-2021, 09:12 PM   #839
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Originally Posted by StefanTheGreat View Post
Most of our population is outside the country.
Provide the statistical data to validate that assertion.
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We don't have a future as a country, what language exactly is there to protect?
What language? It's called Macedonian. It was spoken long before the modern state was established. It will continue to be spoken even if the state ceased to exist.
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Bulgarian and Macedonian is extremely similar. I promise you that Serbian, and especially Croatian are not nearly as close.
Don't create strawman arguments. I never said Croatian and Serbian are closer to Macedonian, I said they are closer to each other than Macedonian and Bulgarian are to each other.
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I'm not even from a border region and still understand it near perfect. I say this not because I am anti-Macedonian, but to help you realize what we are up against.
There's no need to repeat your anecdote. You understand Bulgarian "near perfect" because you're a Bulgar (or if you're dubious story is to be accepted, you've spent time in Bulgaria). A bit late to alter that tale with reference to which region you supposedly come from. Most of my family comes from the Bitola region. They speak both the local dialect and literary Macedonian, which are almost the same. They struggle to understand Bulgars on TV yapping in their Russianised eastern literary variety. That is an objective fact. A 10 year old child in Macedonia would be able to understand nearly everything if they hear a speech from a politician in Macedonia. You're suggesting that the same child would understand that fat Bulgar who was your president up until recently just as easily, which is a blatant lie.
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If we can get Bulgaria to accept Macedonian as an international language, that is a win for us, plain and simple.
Did you miss the part about Macedonian already being an internationally recognised language that is taught around the world? Why is it so important to you that Bulgaria accept Macedonian as a language? For somebody that pretends to love Macedonia, you seem to enjoy arguing on behalf of the Bulgar position.
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Once more, the alternative is "The Language of North Macedonia as per the Constitution."
According to who?
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Blind nationalism solves nothing; in fact it hurts us!
Who is the blind nationalist, Macedonians who only seek acknowledgement of reality or Bulgars who seek to suppress reality? We know which side you're on.
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This needs to be understood by people that supposedly love our homeland. Brother, understand, the love of Macedonia runs through my veins, but we need to be smart.
Spare me the insincere effort at endearment. Those who love Macedonia struggle on her behalf. They don't accept her subservience to others, as you do.
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There is no serious Macedonian presence in Bulgaria, that I can absolutely promise you.
Wrap it in whatever adjective makes you sleep better at night. The fact is, there is a Macedonian presence in Bulgaria and if they weren't serious they wouldn't have taken that miserable country to court so many times. The only people who denigrate their existence are Bulgar nationalists, like yourself.
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This is the belief of 100% of Bulgarians, genuinely. They don't hate us, they see us as confused and brainwashed.
Yes, you told us. We know they're delusional. Yet, you keep telling us. Why do you keep telling us?
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Please do not tell me that I am not "self-respecting" and that I am spitting on my ancestors' memory, people that have died for this country.
I said no self-respecting Macedonian would say what you did. You're not Macedonian so it doesn't apply to you.
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Old 06-19-2021, 09:28 PM   #840
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Originally Posted by StefanTheGreat
Saying the two languages are the same, but getting Bulgaria to recognize it as a language, is the better option for us. If this were to happen, the moment we start EU negotiations, our language would be legitimized.
Oh, I get it now. Let's pretend Macedonian isn't already an internationally recognised language, then suggest that it is better to be classified as a Bulgarian language instead of a Bulgarian dialect. That way we win. Lol. You're an idiot.
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This is a game of chess.
Forget chess. Your incapable of checkers.
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They see Macedonian as a dialect of Bulgarian.......Internationally, it would be a Bulgarian dialect that was altered by the Yugoslav authorities.......This will be cemented once Zaev, as he promised, opens the vaults to expose Yugoslav anti-Bulgarian brutality.......I don't see Bulgaria budging on their veto considering the fact that 80% of them want it to continue until we say that our language is Bulgarian and that our nation's history starts in 1945, previously being Bulgaria.....
Well done. On a Macedonian forum where the purpose is to promote the Macedonian perspective on Macedonia, you've managed to spew up all of the Bulgar propaganda talking points and argue on behalf of their position regarding Macedonia's accession into the EU all at once. We could read the same rubbish on any Bulgar news portal rather than giving it a platform here. Make your next reply a special one. You know what comes next.
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