"Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese" - Page 25

Carlin · 03-22-2021, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dekapentaugoustos

... Vlachs were basicaly NOWHERE in Peloponnese, either prior or after 1865 ...

https://www.gtp.gr/LocInfo.asp?Inclu...cId=8952&lng=1
https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A4...B4%CE%B1%CF%82

Tracheia is a village in the prefecture of Argolida, in the municipality of Epidaurus.

One of the oldest -if not the oldest- village of the municipality. In the distant past, Tracheia was an old Turkish mahala, which after the liberation (1821), was inhabited mainly by Epirote Vlachs (Βλάχους Ηπειρώτες). Its new inhabitants successfully developed the art of cheese-making and soon expanded throughout the Prefecture of Argolida, leading the way in milk collection. Over the years, they have created a tradition in the manufacture of cheese products with unparalleled quality and taste, which has as a result that at the moment it is in the first places nationwide.

PS:
"In the Peloponnese and even in Argolida, apart from the Illyrian place names, there are many Latinate or Vlach toponyms..." --- Page 42, Mesaiōnikes selides tēs Argolidos, Arkadias, Korinthias, Attikēs, By Iōannēs Euag Peppas · 1990

Amphipolis · 03-23-2021, 08:03 AM

This doesn't change much what I said, that there were NO Vlach villages in Peloponnese, by the 18th or 19th century, i.e. periods for which we have plenty of information.

I don't know much about Vlachs, e.g. how quickly they establish settlements or how quickly they vanish, but here's a funny video from Argolis. This is a different village called Limnes (i.e. Lakes) and is unrelated to Tracheia. Both villages are suspiciously at the top of mountains.

In the video which is from the 1990s, old women sing old Greek and Arvanite songs, which suggest they are Arvanites. The surname of all these people is Vlachos. Some have the alternate surname Burtzos which is now considered a derogatory word (burtzovlachos means the lowest type of peasant).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_qlt6QD3q0

Carlin · 03-23-2021, 10:12 AM

Amphipolis, you are ignoring Cousinery's testimony and The London Quarterly Review reports (..at the minimum).

Carlin · 08-11-2021, 10:35 AM

URL:
https://kamuchey.com/wp/2018/07/28/v...ost-7-28-2018/

Vlachs – A Follow-Up To Aromanian/Arvanite Post (7-28-2018)

In an earlier post we discussed a possible DNA connection to the Arvanite and Aromanian populations in Central Greece. At times both groups have been called the “Vlachs”.

Regarding the Vlachs…..

“They are the nomadic breeders of the Peloponnese …. In the various books and documents…… they are referred to as “the defeated”or “the shepherds”. They themselves … identify themselves as ‘Vlach Nomads‘.

As a place of origin, they mention Pindos (Syrrako, Agrafa), where they left at the beginning of the 19th century, chased by the Ali Pasha … In the revolution of 1821 they contributed significantly to the struggle by selling livestock and food to the resistance, so Ibrahim made his Corinthian forces their primary goal to destroy the Vlachs livestock on Mount Ziria …

At the end of the 19th century and the early 20th century ‘the Vlach Nomads’ were at the height of their glory. Flocks with thousands of horses, hundreds of horses, countless children and grandchildren and thousands of pounds that will allow them to make big purchases later. In the 1920s, the state, trying to curb robbery and desertion, forced them to register with the communities in order to be able to rent a lot. In addition, they began buying houses and meadows in the mountainous communities of Achaia and Corinth, whose inhabitants had already begun to emigrate to the coast of the Corinthian Gulf from the late 19th century …

In the 1930s they began to be tentatively engaged with the cultivation of land. Laws prohibiting the over-grazing of forests also played a decisive role. The war of 1940 and later the civil war caused great losses of lives, animals, and money and marked the end of nomadic life. They began to abandon livestock farming, abolished inter-marriage, abandoned their native clothing, and settled, as farmers, on the coastal sites. Today, only 25% are engaged in livestock farming, 50% in agriculture and 25% in other professions, mainly butchers, barbecues and dairy shops. Most of the Vlachs’ tents are located in Corinthia (50%), Achaia (20%), Argolida (10%), Ilia (15%) and (5%) Megara and Salamina.”

Source: Leonidas V. Petrou: Moraites, Nomads, Breeders (Karagounides, Karakatsanides, Roumeliotes), Aegio 2007

You can read more about the Vlachs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

Carlin · 08-12-2021, 07:31 AM

Aromanians and Tsakonians: Similarities and Differences, Dimitris Michalopoulos

"During the 19th century, Vlach populations were spread throughout Greek lands. The existence of the term apa, coined in Mani, Southern Peloponnese...."

(apa = water)

Carlin · 06-03-2022, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carlin

- "Prior to 1865, Vlachs everywhere in the Peloponnese.."
- "Number of non-Vlachs remained lower than the Vlachs.."
- "..the Peloponnese consisted mostly, if not entirely, of Vlachs and Albanians.."
- "..the guerrillas were generally Vlachs and Albanians, and in the Greek revolution Vlachs and Albanians, etc etc..."
- "Arcadia ... numerous Vlach villages."
- "Achaia ... Vlach villages."

It's hard to believe it's been 10 years since the OP.

Well, after 10 long years I believe I have found the author/source of the piece in the attached YouTube video. The author is Georgios I. Karvelas
(1881-1955).

Some new explosive testimonies as revealed by this GREEK author: in the Peloponnesian towns of Tripolis (Tripolitsa), Argos and Megalopolis the Vlach element prevails.

(Γεωργίου Ι. Καρβελά, Α΄ Περί Βλάχων - Β΄ Κρήνη Μελάνυδρος - Μέλαν ύδωρ – Μαυρομμάτι, Αθήνα 1997 [εκδότης Γ. Β. Γριτσόπουλος]).

Carlin · 06-07-2022, 12:56 AM

In 1465: there are Vlachs (Vilachi) in "Napoli de Romania", i.e. around Argos and Nafplio, and that there are Vlachs (Ulachi) everywhere, all over Morea.

03-23-2021, 08:03 AM	#242
Amphipolis Banned Join Date: Aug 2014 Posts: 1,328	This doesn't change much what I said, that there were NO Vlach villages in Peloponnese, by the 18th or 19th century, i.e. periods for which we have plenty of information. I don't know much about Vlachs, e.g. how quickly they establish settlements or how quickly they vanish, but here's a funny video from Argolis. This is a different village called Limnes (i.e. Lakes) and is unrelated to Tracheia. Both villages are suspiciously at the top of mountains. In the video which is from the 1990s, old women sing old Greek and Arvanite songs, which suggest they are Arvanites. The surname of all these people is Vlachos. Some have the alternate surname Burtzos which is now considered a derogatory word (burtzovlachos means the lowest type of peasant). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_qlt6QD3q0

03-23-2021, 10:12 AM	#243
Carlin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3,305	Amphipolis, you are ignoring Cousinery's testimony and The London Quarterly Review reports (..at the minimum).

08-11-2021, 10:35 AM	#244
Carlin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3,305	URL: https://kamuchey.com/wp/2018/07/28/v...ost-7-28-2018/ Vlachs – A Follow-Up To Aromanian/Arvanite Post (7-28-2018) In an earlier post we discussed a possible DNA connection to the Arvanite and Aromanian populations in Central Greece. At times both groups have been called the “Vlachs”. Regarding the Vlachs….. “They are the nomadic breeders of the Peloponnese …. In the various books and documents…… they are referred to as “the defeated”or “the shepherds”. They themselves … identify themselves as ‘Vlach Nomads‘. As a place of origin, they mention Pindos (Syrrako, Agrafa), where they left at the beginning of the 19th century, chased by the Ali Pasha … In the revolution of 1821 they contributed significantly to the struggle by selling livestock and food to the resistance, so Ibrahim made his Corinthian forces their primary goal to destroy the Vlachs livestock on Mount Ziria … At the end of the 19th century and the early 20th century ‘the Vlach Nomads’ were at the height of their glory. Flocks with thousands of horses, hundreds of horses, countless children and grandchildren and thousands of pounds that will allow them to make big purchases later. In the 1920s, the state, trying to curb robbery and desertion, forced them to register with the communities in order to be able to rent a lot. In addition, they began buying houses and meadows in the mountainous communities of Achaia and Corinth, whose inhabitants had already begun to emigrate to the coast of the Corinthian Gulf from the late 19th century … In the 1930s they began to be tentatively engaged with the cultivation of land. Laws prohibiting the over-grazing of forests also played a decisive role. The war of 1940 and later the civil war caused great losses of lives, animals, and money and marked the end of nomadic life. They began to abandon livestock farming, abolished inter-marriage, abandoned their native clothing, and settled, as farmers, on the coastal sites. Today, only 25% are engaged in livestock farming, 50% in agriculture and 25% in other professions, mainly butchers, barbecues and dairy shops. Most of the Vlachs’ tents are located in Corinthia (50%), Achaia (20%), Argolida (10%), Ilia (15%) and (5%) Megara and Salamina.” Source: Leonidas V. Petrou: Moraites, Nomads, Breeders (Karagounides, Karakatsanides, Roumeliotes), Aegio 2007 You can read more about the Vlachs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs

08-12-2021, 07:31 AM	#245
Carlin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3,305	Aromanians and Tsakonians: Similarities and Differences, Dimitris Michalopoulos "During the 19th century, Vlach populations were spread throughout Greek lands. The existence of the term apa, coined in Mani, Southern Peloponnese...." (apa = water)

06-07-2022, 12:56 AM	#247
Carlin Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Canada Posts: 3,305	In 1465: there are Vlachs (Vilachi) in "Napoli de Romania", i.e. around Argos and Nafplio, and that there are Vlachs (Ulachi) everywhere, all over Morea.

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