The Thracian Dialects in the South Slavic Continuum

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    The Thracian Dialects in the South Slavic Continuum

    The dialects of Thrace are spoken in a much smaller area than they once were, mainly limited to the region of Thrace in what is now southern Bulgaria. They share an affinity with other dialects in their vicinity, and are collectively known as the 'Rup' dialectal group. Although they are located east of the 'yat' border, they share a number of similarities with the spoken dialects of Macedonia which are not shared by the dialects of Moesia, or the 'Balkan' region. See below for some phonological and morphological characteristics:

    1 - дж and дз are pronounced as ж and z respectively, so instead of джам there is жам (window)
    2 - Disappearance of т from the consonant group стр, so instead of сестра there is сесра (sister)
    3 - Personal pronouns нега instead of него (him), and хми instead of им
    4 - Future tense particles жъ, шъ, зъ in the northern subdialect and ке in the southern subdialect

    The sub-dialects of the broader group that is known as 'Rup' do share certain affinities, but they are not as uniform as the other groups, particularly where it concerns phonology. There are varying reflexes of Old Macedonian ѣ (yat), whereas Macedonian dialects of today mostly use ɛ for the yat characteristic. Below are some phonological and morphological characteristics common to all or most dialects in the 'Rup' group:

    5 - щ and жд developed from Proto-Slavic and
    6 - A large number of palatal consonants in all possible positions of the word: кʲитʲкʲи instead of китки (wrists)
    7 - Soft (palatal) ж, ʒ and ш, so жʲаба instead of жаба (frog). These have now largely become hard consonants
    8 - Preserved consonant х in all positions, so ходи instead of оди (walks)
    9 - Widespread labialisation of и into у, so йуме instead of име (name)
    10 - Transition of the consonant group -дн into -нн, so гланна instead of гладна (hungry)
    11 - Suffix -цк[ʲ]и instead of -ски for qualitative adjectives: женцк[ʲ]и instead of formal Bulgarian женски (female)

    Some brief observations:
    • On point 2 - this characteristic is very common in spoken Macedonian, particularly the dialects of Bitola, Prilep, Lerin, etc. Other examples are срав instead of страв (fear), срико instead of стрико (paternal uncle), etc.
    • On point 4 - it is worth pointing out that the southern sub-dialect is closer to common Macedonian (compare ke to ќе), whereas the northern sub-dialect is closer to some eastern Macedonian dialects and standard Bulgarian (compare шъ to ще).
    • On point 11 - anybody that has read the works of Misirkov will notice the repeat occurrence of this feature, so Македонцки instead of Македонски



    I took most of the information above from some wikipedia articles - which all appear to stem from the below link. Although there are some incorrect perceptions from these Bulgarian linguists in their effort to present Thracian and Macedonian dialects as their own, the actual information is valuable in its factual content. Quite useful for anybody that has an interest in linguistics:



    Here is an interesting fact. The ancestral dialects of the Thracian group were those spoken by the people in the Macedonia Theme, from where the Macedonian Dynasty of East Rome descended. These people identified themselves, and were identified in sources - as Macedonians.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.
  • Pelister
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 2742

    #2
    This is really important work SoM, particular the Thracian element in the Macedonian theme. Just to add some texture to what your doing, according to NGL Hammond Macedonia and in particular, Olympus, was inhabited by 'Thracians' in what he describes "a dark and distant past'. He also notes that the two oldest tombs found on Mt.Olympus today are 'Thracian'.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #3
      Pelister, the Macedonia Theme actually originated in Thrace itself, and not Macedonia proper. It was established as an administrative unit of East Rome at the end of the 8th century, with its capital at Adrianople (Macedonian: Odrin, Turkish: Edirne). This is the place and environment which produced Macedonian rulers such as Basil I and Basil II. Its population consisted of native Thracians who spoke Slavonic, in addition to a Macedonian element, hence the reason for its name. There was also an Armenian minority that had been settled there by the (east) Romans. As Macedonia proper wasn't included in the new theme system, it is likely that segments of the Macedonian population including the nobility and upper classes had moved east to enjoy the benefits that came with Roman rule. Another reason was to escape the increasing Bulgar raids into Macedonia proper, which at that time was still an autonomous rebel enclave led by a Slavic-speaking warrior elite. One could argue that the people of the Macedonia Theme (who spoke a language akin to ours today) were the main carriers of the Macedonian identity during this period and for centuries afterwards. That, however, doesn't mean that people in Macedonia proper completely stopped identifying or being identified as Macedonians. Here are the rough boundaries of the Macedonia Theme at its largest:

      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #4
        Here is something interesting with regard to the dialects of the Rhodope mountains, which are also part of the 'Rup' group - they also have three variants of the definitive article, just like in Macedonian, except for one difference. I will use the word 'dete' (child) as an example:

        1. Deteto (the child)
        2. Deteno (the child - distant)
        3. Deteso (the child - near)

        For example 3, in Macedonian it would be said as 'detevo'.
        - ът, -та, -то, -тę с общо определително значение, за обща определеност;
        - ъс, -са, -со, -сę с определително и показателно значение за предмети, които се намират в пространството б л и з o до говорещото лице;
        - ън, -на, -но, -нę с определително и показателно значение за предмети, които се намират в пространството д а л е ч от говорещото лице.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Soldier of Macedon
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 13670

          #5
          Here are some reference to the Macedonians of the Macedonia Theme (and possibly some from the peripheral areas of Macedonia proper):

          I will start with a post from another thread, to provide a background for this topic and the below events. http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=524 Prior to the events of Thomas the Slav, a battle took place between the empires of East Rome and Bulgaria that engaged the Macedonians in battle. The

          Originally posted by Constantine Porphyrogenitus, 10th century
          ....and in the reign of Michael, the son of Theophilus, the protospatharius Theoctistus, surnamed Bryennius, was sent as military governor to the Province of Peloponnesus with a great power and force, viz., of Thracians and Macedonians and the rest of the western provinces, to war upon and subdue them. He subdued and mastered all the Slavs and other insubordinates of the province of Peloponnesus, and only the Ezeritai and the Milingoi were left, towards Lacedaemonia and Helos…….
          http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/basis...no00.html#BOOK SIX
          Originally posted by Michael Psellus, 11th century
          The emperor (Constantine IX) had a second cousin on the maternal side, a man called Leo, a member of the Tornician family. He lived in Adrianopolis and reeked of Macedonian arrogance........

          It happened that at that particular time there was a Macedonian colony living in the neighbourhood of the city. Prominent among them were people who had originally pitted in Adrianopolis...........

          Most of the Macedonians, being a folk who delight in arrogance and insolent bearing more accustomed to the buffoonery of townsmen than the simplicity of the camp, most of them, I say, dismounted from their horses and started choral dances, where everyone could see them. They improvised comic turns at the emperor's expense, stamping on the ground with their feet in time to their music and dancing in triumph. Some of these performances Constantine saw, others he only heard.........

          Originally posted by Anna Komnena, 12th century
          The other, the left wing, was led by Catacalon Tarchaniotes, and was composed of fully-armed Macedonians and Thracians, numbering in all about 3,000. Bryennius himself held the centre of the phalanx, consisting of Macedonians and Thracians, and the picked men of the whole nobility..........

          This Haemus is a very long mountain range running along a line parallel to Mount Rhodope. The range begins at the Euxine sea, leaves the cataracts a little on one side and continues right into Illyria; there it is cut through by the Adriatic Sea, I fancy, and emerges again in the opposite continent and finishes right away in the Hercynian forests. On either side of its slopes dwell many very wealthy tribes, the Dacians and the Thracians on the northern side, and on the southern, more Thracians and the Macedonians.............

          Originally posted by George Finlay, 19th century
          John Aplakes, the general of the Macedonian troops..........Aplakes, who commanded the Macedonian and Thracian troops, consisting chiefly of hardy Sclavonian recruits, defeated the Bulgarian division opposed to him.............
          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            #6
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Here is something interesting with regard to the dialects of the Rhodope mountains, which are also part of the 'Rup' group - they also have three variants of the definitive article, just like in Macedonian, except for one difference. I will use the word 'dete' (child) as an example:

            1. Deteto (the child)
            2. Deteno (the child - distant)
            3. Deteso (the child - near)

            For example 3, in Macedonian it would be said as 'detevo'.
            Liberal Arts at UT offers over 40 majors and many top-ranked graduate programs in the social sciences and humanities taught by 750 faculty.


            OCS used two different demonstrative pronouns, сь, си, се "this one" and овъ, ова, ово "this". The difference between them is in syntax, I'm not sure exactly of what kind. Anyhow, once the pronouns became articles in East South Slavic language continuum it seems that most dialects took the pronoun овъ as the definitive article for close proximity, while Thracian dialect took сь.
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • Soldier of Macedon
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 13670

              #7
              Thanks mate, I hadn't searched that far so wasn't aware of that. Can you cite an example of how both would look in a sentence?
              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #8
                Here is an interesting characteristic in the 'central Balkan dialect':
                Alternation of ръ and ър (rə~ər) and лъ and ъл (lə~əl) for Old Church Slavonic ръ/рь and лъ/ль depending on the number of syllables of the word - кълва vs. клъвна (as in Standard Bulgarian)
                That looks similar to some of the examples we discussed relating to metathesis on the Paleo-Balkan/Balto-Slavic thread. Perhaps the process of metathesis wasn't complete in this dialect, or perhaps it is a feature that developed afterwards.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #9
                  That looks similar to some of the examples we discussed relating to metathesis on the Paleo-Balkan/Balto-Slavic thread. Perhaps the process of metathesis wasn't complete in this dialect, or perhaps it is a feature that developed afterwards.
                  I think it is a later feature as it is apparently only present with the half-vowel ъ and not full vowels.

                  Can you cite an example of how both would look in a sentence?
                  Sorry mate, the EIELO website doesn't give an example of овъ and I left my chrestomathy of OCS at home. I'll look into it when I get back.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Дени
                    Member
                    • May 2010
                    • 136

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Could the Thracian dialects be considered a dialect group of their own which are seperate from both Macedonian and Bulgarian, or are there enough features to classify them with one or the other? You can answer on the thread below if you wish:

                    http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...avic+continuum
                    There are dialect groups which include only a few villages. For example, the dialects of Bukovo and Orehovo have a voiced velar fricative as an allophone of /l/ (i.e. a single distinguishing feature). They are then also part of a broader dialect group which includes the whole of what is the Bitola Municipality. That too is part of an even broader dialect group which includes the Prilep area (Prilep-Bitola dialect). This, again, is then part of the so-called central dialects. So it all depends on how many and which features are taken to be meaningful in making a classification.

                    The dialects you're talking about do form a dialect group, but that greater dialect group is transitional to its neighboring dialect groups.

                    As for the definite article, I'll try and find an article which discusses a form derived from *sĭ which is still used in one of the Macedonian dialects in Albania.

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      #11
                      Overall, do you think the dialects of Bukovo/Orehovo share more similarities with the Prilep-Bitola dialect in Macedonia or the Balkan dialects in Bulgaria?
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • Дени
                        Member
                        • May 2010
                        • 136

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                        Overall, do you think the dialects of Bukovo/Orehovo share more similarities with the Prilep-Bitola dialect in Macedonia or the Balkan dialects in Bulgaria?
                        They are very much representative of the Prilep-Bitola dialect. I only used them to explain Macedonian isoglosses. Sorry about that, I trailed off again.

                        By the way, this is the article I was talking about. She briefly mentions the -ос definite article in Macedonian dialects in Albania as well as the Rhodope dialects.

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Дени View Post
                          They are very much representative of the Prilep-Bitola dialect. I only used them to explain Macedonian isoglosses. Sorry about that, I trailed off again.
                          Ok, I have misunderstood. Because we were on the topic of Thracian dialects I assumed you were talking about Bukovo and Orehovo in the Plovdiv region. Hence the question - do you think the Thracian dialects (southern sub-dialects specifically) are generally closer to Macedonian than Bulgarian dialects? Or are they better classified as a distinct dialectal group, albeit very diverse?
                          By the way, this is the article I was talking about. She briefly mentions the -ос definite article in Macedonian dialects in Albania as well as the Rhodope dialects.
                          Interesting, I thought the -oc was restricted to some Thracian dialects. Do you think it appeared in the far western Macedonian dialects as a result of the below, as previously explained by Delodephius?
                          OCS used two different demonstrative pronouns, сь, си, се "this one" and овъ, ова, ово "this". The difference between them is in syntax, I'm not sure exactly of what kind. Anyhow, once the pronouns became articles in East South Slavic language continuum it seems that most dialects took the pronoun овъ as the definitive article for close proximity, while Thracian dialect took сь.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #14
                            Deni, do you have any answers or opinions on the above questions?
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Дени
                              Member
                              • May 2010
                              • 136

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Hence the question - do you think the Thracian dialects (southern sub-dialects specifically) are generally closer to Macedonian than Bulgarian dialects? Or are they better classified as a distinct dialectal group, albeit very diverse?
                              Bulgarian linguists are too often unsystematic in their classifications, hence the 'diversity'. What they call "Thracian" is those speeches of Părvomaj, Haskovo, Harmanli, Svilengrad, Topolovgrad and Elhovo. By this point, they are certainly Bulgarian. Further back though, the Ser-Nevrokop area is transitional but the Maleševo-Pirin area is categorically Macedonian.

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Interesting, I thought the -oc was restricted to some Thracian dialects. Do you think it appeared in the far western Macedonian dialects as a result of the below, as previously explained by Delodephius?
                              The article I linked to in an earlier post states:

                              Ов- е релативно нов елемент во тој троен аранжман, порано соодветната функција ја вршел коренот с-, додека ов- функционирал во друг тип опозиција во однос на т-[...]
                              So it seems like there was some regularization (very typical of Macedonian). My guess would be that -ос developed by analogy of -от/-он, while the same happened with -ов in other dialects. Naturally, we wouldn't except -ос and -ов in the same dialect.

                              We still do find *, just not in the function of a definite article: денес < *dĭnĭ + *.

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