Who were the Aetolians?

[Epirot]

One of the main "proofs" used by simple-minded "Greek" propagandists to claim a Greekness of the ancient Macedonians is a short passage from Ab urbe condita [31.29.2] of Titus Livius when he stated:

"Aetolos , Acarnanas , Macedonas , EIUSDEM LINGUAE HOMINES”

“Aetolians , Acarnanians , Macedonians , MEN OF THE SAME LANGUAGE”

I think this truncated passage cannot serve as a valid indication of Greekness of Macedonians since there isn't any direct mention of 'Greeks'. Secondly, I think there are many strong evidences showing a non-Greek character of Aetolia that was peopled by non-Greek tribes.

«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

Thucydides (III,94): "Aetolians...that inhabite unwalled-villages ...eaters of raw meat and with an unintelligible tongue."

Arnold Toynbee threw some lights in that matter:

... it was remembered that the three Aetolian peoples whom Philip V stigmatized at that date had once been non-Greek-speaking

Unfortunately, his book isn't available for further consultation in books.google...Is there any chance to get the full page of Toynbee about that matter?!

Please post here all proofs (by modern scholars of course) about non-greacity of Aetolians!

[Soldier of Macedon]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian_League

The Aetolians were not highly regarded by other Greeks, who considered them to be semi-barbaric and reckless.[3]

The source for this assertion is the following:

West, 1902

No very elaborative, is it? Who is this guy called West, and what did he write exactly about the Aetolians?

Here is something more about the non-Greek Aetolians from a citation of Polybius:

http://faq.macedonia.org/history/ancient.macedonia/ancient1.html

(Book XVIII. 5) Philip V from Macedon responds to the Greek and Roman demands:

"But what is most outrageous of all is that they should attempt to put themselves on the same footing as the Romans and demand that the Macedonians should withdraw from the whole of Greece. To use such language is arrogant enough in the first place, but while we may endure this from the Romans, it is quite intolerable coming from the Aetolians. In any case,' he continued, 'what is this Greece which you demand that I should evacuate, and how do you define Greece? Certainly most of the Aetolians themselves are not Greeks! The countries of the Agraae, the Apodotea, and the Aphilochians cannot be regarded as Greek. So do you allow me to remain in those territories."

There is surely more information on this subject that goes into further detail, well worth initiating Epirot.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is something from Strabo and an analysis I did of his works:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=430&highlight=Strabo%2C+Aetolians

However, for a very long time the Aetolians, together with the Acarnanians, stood firm, not only against the Macedonians and the other Greeks, but also finally against the Romans, when fighting for autonomy. Book 10, Chapter 2, 23.

While from the onset this quote may appear to group the Macedonians with the Greeks, in actual fact this is not the case. With reference made to the Romans, it is clear that the 'other Greeks' cannot be inclusive of the Macedonians, as the topic (during the point in question) speaks of a time when the Greeks were under Macedonian rule. Therefore, the Aetolians and Acarnanians stood firm against the rulers (Macedonians) and the other Greeks, and then later (finally) the Romans. Apart from the purpose of maintaining a distinction, there is no other reason why the Macedonians would be mentioned in the above quote by Strabo.

In this case, it would appear that the Aetolians are grouped with the Greeks due to the reference of 'other' Greeks - but that could also be a simple geographic designation also. Strabo also refers to Macedonia as within 'Greece', but his subsequent elaboration clearly indicates that this is a geographical designation that was used in his time. Take the below quote, for example:

Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus, that, before the time of the Greeks, it was inhabited by barbarians. Perhaps even the whole of Greece was, anciently, a settlement of barbarians, if we judge from former accounts. For Pelops brought colonists from Phrygia into the Peloponnesus, which took his name; Danaus brought colonists from Egypt; Dry- opes, Caucones, Pelasgi, Leleges, and other barbarous nations, partitioned among themselves the country on this side of the isthmus. The case was the same on the other side of the isthmus; for Thracians, under their leader Eumolpus, took possession of Attica; Tereus of Daulis in Phocaea; the Phoenicians, with their leader Cadmus, occupied the Cadmeian district; Aones, and Temmices, and Hyantes, Boeotia. Pindar says, `there was a time when the Boeotian people were called Syes.' Some names show their barbarous origin, as Cecrops, Codrus, Ceclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotae are settled even at present on the sides of Greece. Formerly the territory they possessed was more extensive, although even now the barbarians possess a large part of the country, which, without dispute, is Greece. Macedonia is occupied by Thracians, as well as some parts of Thessaly; the country above Acarnania and Aetolia, by Thesproti, Cassopaei, Amphilochi, Molotti, and Athamanes, Epirotic tribes. Book 7, ch. 7, frg. 1.

This speaks about tribes 'above' Aetolia, which I am assuming he means 'north' of that region. Aetolia looks like a middle ground where 'Greek' and 'Barbarian' living space meets.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Here is a link to Strabo's Book 7 - Chapter 7:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7G*.html

[Epirot]

There is surely more information on this subject that goes into further detail, well worth initiating Epirot.

Thank you SoM for putting together such valuable infos!

The reason why I initiated such a topic is that some mentally midgets (that unfortunately make-up the majority of 'Greece') use this truncated citation to confirm the 'Hellenism' of ancient Macedonians.

Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, pg. 412

I hope that TrueMacedonian can post here the interesting pieces of Toynbee's book 'Some problems in Greek history' regarding Aetolian ethnical affiliation!

[Soldier of Macedon]

Epirot, I can't see why any Greek would consider the above quote you posted as working in their favour. Who is the author?

I am interested in this apparent passage from Thycydides that states Aetolians were regarded as 'barbarians' by the Hellenes. I will look into it further, unless you already know the quote?

[Epirot]

I am interested in this apparent passage from Thycydides that states Aetolians were regarded as 'barbarians' by the Hellenes. I will look into it further, unless you already know the quote?

I've already posted it.

«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

Thucydides (III,94): The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Epirot, I can't see why any Greek would consider the above quote you posted as working in their favour. Who is the author?

Therefore I opened such a thread ...to show that this quote do not work in their favour.

However, I am waiting from TrueMacedonian to post the full page of Toynbee for Aetolians (if he could)?

[Soldier of Macedon]

I must have missed it because it only had a short english translation in your first post. The translation you just provided differs a little, is that because they are from two different translators?

[Epirot]

I must have missed it because it only had a short english translation in your first post. The translation you just provided differs a little, is that because they are from two different translators?

I think that Thucydides's quote [III,94] is translated in many versions that differs little from each other. However the expression 'a language exceedingly difficult to understand' is equally with 'an unintelligible tongue'.

ἀγνωστότατοι is a trait of ἄγνωστος which means 'unknown'.

http://artflx.uchicago.edu/perseus-cgi/morph.pl?id=5105958&lang=greek

I guess it would be more correct to use the later translation: 'an unintelligible tongue'.

In some cases, the western translations of ancient texts are simply amateurish.

[Soldier of Macedon]

From the Penguin Classics translation, it gives the following sentence:

.........speak a language which is almost unintelligible.......

Is the Greek text provided by yourself initially in ancient or modern Greek? An effort of google translate give a poor version, it would be good to get some clarity on the actual sentence itself.

[Pelister]

Fascinating glimpses into the pre-Greek aegean. Great discussion Epirot and SoM.

[thessalo-niki]

The text of post #1 is the original (in ancient Attic Greek). I would translate it as "highly unknown language" or "extremely unknown language", but you should also pay attention when he says "it is said that...". It is rather a slander against Aetolians, because Athenians never managed to conquer them.

EDIT: Racist link.
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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Bill77]

thessa are you going to answer my questions you little Albanian bitch?

Stop spamming with your racsist "so called Greek" propaganda. You are not even fulling your self with it you little troll.

Ban this pitcka guys.
As Jankovska said, "he ruins every thread with what the Greeks think" with bullshit Greek links then he disapears till the next chance he has to spam.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thessaloniki, I can appreciate your interest in this discussion, but don't come here and support it with a garbage article from American Chronicle that denigrates the Macedonian people. Find another source, even if it from a Greek, that doesn't insult my people in every second sentence, and you're more than welcome to post it up here so we can discuss further. Keep that in mind for future reference also.

In fact, why don't you explain in detail about the relevance of Athenian perceptions with regard to the Aetolians and their seemingly unintelligible language?

[thessalo-niki]

Since my post was edited and the link was deleted as... racist, I re-submit a copy of the relevant part only. In my opinion, the main problem of the American Chronicles article, is that it was veeeeeery long (about 100 page-downs in a continuous format) and it could also spark a more generic dialogue about ancient-Macedonian language and derail this thread which ia about Aetolians.
Otherwise you have no idea, on what racism is, what spam is, which posts a forum-administrator should edit (look right above your post) etc. Why don't you start by reading you own rules?

An example of such a hazy situation comes to us from Homer who in the 8th c BC has the Aetolians participate in the Panhellenic expedition against Troy as Greeks:

Αἰτωλῶν δ' ἡγεῖτο Θόας Ἀνδραίμονος υἱός,

οἳ Πλευρῶν' ἐνέμοντο καὶ Ὤλενον ἠδὲ Πυλήνην

Χαλκίδα τ' ἀγχίαλον Καλυδῶνα τε πετρήεσσαν:

οὐ γὰρ ἔτ' Οἰνῆος μεγαλήτορος υἱέες ἦσαν,

οὐδ' ἄρ' ἔτ' αὐτὸς ἔην, θάνε δὲ ξανθὸς Μελέαγρος:

τῷ δ' ἐπὶ πάντ' ἐτέταλτο ἀνασσέμεν Αἰτωλοῖσι:

τῷ δ' ἅμα τεσσαράκοντα μέλαιναι νῆες ἕποντο.

And the Aetolians were led by Thoas, Andraemon's son, even they that dwelt in Pleuron and Olenus and Pylene and Chalcis, hard by the sea, and rocky Calydon. For the sons of great-hearted Oeneus were no more, neither did he himself still live, and fair-haired Meleager was dead, to whom had commands been given that he should bear full sway among the Aetolians. And with Thoas there followed forty black ships.

Homer, The Iliad, 2.640, Catalogue of the Ships

Yet only a few centuries later Thucydides in the 5th c BC finds the Aetolians to be utterly barbarian and incomprehensible in language:

4] τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. [5] ἐπιχειρεῖν δ' ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται

The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. [5] The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

Thucydides 3.94.4

The expression "ὡς λέγονται / as is said" betrays that Thucydides himself never visited Aetolia and had no personal experience of the Aetolians.

We now know of course that the Aetolians were Greek, and the rest of history after Thucydides records them as such, and all the epigraphic record proves it. But Herodotus also mentions the Aetolians as Greek:

μετὰ δὲ γενεῇ δευτέρῃ ὕστερον Κλεισθένης αὐτὴν ὁ Σικυώνιος τύραννος ἐξήειρε, ὥστε πολλῷ ὀνομαστοτέρην γενέσθαι ἐν τοῖσι Ἕλλησι ἢ πρότερον ἦν. Κλεισθένεϊ γὰρ τῷ Ἀριστωνύμου τοῦ Μύρωνος τοῦ Ἀνδρέω γίνεται θυγάτηρ τῇ οὔνομα ἦν Ἀγαρίστη. ταύτην ἠθέλησε, Ἑλλήνων ἁπάντων ἐξευρὼν τὸν ἄριστον, τούτῳ γυναῖκα προσθεῖναι. [2] Ὀλυμπίων ὦν ἐόντων καὶ νικῶν ἐν αὐτοῖσι τεθρίππῳ ὁ Κλεισθένης κήρυγμα ἐποιήσατο, ὅστις Ἑλλήνων ἑωυτὸν ἀξιοῖ Κλεισθένεος γαμβρὸν γενέσθαι, ἥκειν ἐς ἑξηκοστὴν ἡμέρην ἢ καὶ πρότερον ἐς Σικυῶνα, ὡς κυρώσοντος Κλεισθένεος τὸν γάμον ἐν ἐνιαυτῷ, ἀπὸ τῆς ἑξηκοστῆς ἀρξαμένου ἡμέρης. [3] ἐνθαῦτα Ἑλλήνων ὅσοι σφίσι τε αὐτοῖσι ἦσαν καὶ πάτρῃ ἐξωγκωμένοι, ἐφοίτεον μνηστῆρες: τοῖσι Κλεισθένης καὶ δρόμον καὶ παλαίστρην ποιησάμενος ἐπ' αὐτῷ τούτῳ εἶχε.

In the next generation Cleisthenes the tyrant of Sicyon raised that house still higher, so that it grew much more famous in Hellas than it had formerly been. Cleisthenes son of Aristonymus son of Myron son of Andreas had one daughter, whose name was Agariste. He desired to wed her to the best man he could find in Hellas. [2] It was the time of the Olympian games, and when he was victor there with a four-horse chariot, Cleisthenes made a proclamation that whichever Greek thought himself worthy to be his son-in-law should come on the sixtieth day from then or earlier to Sicyon, and Cleisthenes would make good his promise of marriage in a year from that sixtieth day. [3] Then all the Greeks who were proud of themselves and their country came as suitors, and to that end Cleisthenes had them compete in running and wrestling contests.

2] οὗτοι μὲν ἀπὸ Ἰταλίης ἦλθον, ἐκ δὲ τοῦ κόλπου τοῦ Ἰονίου Ἀμφίμνηστος Ἐπιστρόφου Ἐπιδάμνιος: οὗτος δὲ ἐκ τοῦ Ἰονίου κόλπου. Αἰτωλὸς δὲ ἦλθε Τιτόρμου τοῦ ὑπερφύντος τε Ἕλληνας ἰσχύι καὶ φυγόντος ἀνθρώπους ἐς τὰς ἐσχατιὰς τῆς Αἰτωλίδος χώρης, τούτου τοῦ Τιτόρμου ἀδελφεὸς Μάλης. [3] ἀπὸ δὲ Πελοποννήσου Φείδωνος τοῦ Ἀργείων τυράννου παῖς Λεωκήδης, Φείδωνος δὲ τοῦ τὰ μέτρα ποιήσαντος Πελοποννησίοισι καὶ ὑβρίσαντος μέγιστα δὴ Ἑλλήνων πάντων

From Italy came Smindyrides of Sybaris, son of Hippocrates, the most luxurious liver of his day (and Sybaris was then at the height of its prosperity), and Damasus of Siris, son of that Amyris who was called the Wise. [2] These came from Italy; from the Ionian Gulf, Amphimnestus son of Epistrophus, an Epidamnian; he was from the Ionian Gulf. From Aetolia came Males, the brother of that Titormus who surpassed all the Greeks in strength, and fled from the sight of men to the farthest parts of the Aetolian land. [3] From the Peloponnese came Leocedes, son of Phidon the tyrant of Argos, that Phidon who made weights and measures for the Peloponnesians and acted more arrogantly than any other Greek;

Herodotus, The Histories 6b, 1089-1090 Herodotus, Ηροδότου Ιστορίαι 6b, 1089-1090

What prompted the Athenian Thucydides to call the Aetolian Greeks barbarian is first their incomprehensible (to an Attic-speaking Greek of Athens) dialect and, equally important, their primitive way of life (un-walled cities!) which was indistinguishable from that of the barbarians that Thucydides knew. They were in a society that was light ages behind in culture and sophistication compared to that which the Athenians had reached by the fifth century BC. Incidentally, the dialect of the Aetolians, that seemed so ἀγνωστότατη/ incomprehensible, difficult to understand for Thucydides is the same Northwest Greek dialect that the Epeirotes and the Macedonians and the people of Delphoi spoke

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Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul