Todor Aleksandrov

[Niko777]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

That about 3/4 of Macedonians in the US during the 1920s wanted nothing to do with MPO

Thanks for sharing this, I would have thought that 3/4 supported the MPO, especially in the period before WWII.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Niko777

Thanks for sharing this, I would have thought that 3/4 supported the MPO, especially in the period before WWII.

At the 1922 organizational meeting of the MPO Chapter "Fatherland" in Detroit, there were 250 people in attendance. Only 50 of those people signed up to be members of the MPO chapter. Says a lot, in my opinion!

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by VMRO

I agree with the above, i agree that the person Aleksandrov sent (or it could've been Mihajlov due to the zagovor against Aleksandrov at the time) had those intentions to influence the Macedonians in America. There has been research done by Stavre Dzikov who claims the contrary however that MPO was pro Macedonian whilst Aleksandrov was alive and only became influenced to revert from Macedonian to Pan-Bulgarianism after Mihajlov sent his own people after Aleksandrov's death. (When i have more time i will translate and post up on here)

Aleksandrov personally sent these men. I do agree that the early MPO years had many more pro-Macedonians involved -- they were naturally attracted to an large-scale Macedonian movement. But many of those quickly discovered what Chkatroff, Poppetrov and others were up to. The pro-Bulgarian elements instigated the creation of the MPO and they came on behalf of Aleksandrov. Especially Chkatroff, who was in constant correspondence with Aleksandrov.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

Aleksandrov personally sent these men. I do agree that the early MPO years had many more pro-Macedonians involved -- they were naturally attracted to an large-scale Macedonian movement. But many of those quickly discovered what Chkatroff, Poppetrov and others were up to. The pro-Bulgarian elements instigated the creation of the MPO and they came on behalf of Aleksandrov. Especially Chkatroff, who was in constant correspondence with Aleksandrov.

I'll put up the excerpts from the book by Stavre Dzikov later this month, he touches upon this period around the formation of MPO. Murky times.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

Aleksandrov personally sent these men. I do agree that the early MPO years had many more pro-Macedonians involved -- they were naturally attracted to an large-scale Macedonian movement. But many of those quickly discovered what Chkatroff, Poppetrov and others were up to. The pro-Bulgarian elements instigated the creation of the MPO and they came on behalf of Aleksandrov. Especially Chkatroff, who was in constant correspondence with Aleksandrov.

I don't deny that his actions were questionable especially with his flip flopping with Bulgarian ministers and even encouraging the Bulgarian propaganda but other actions particularly in the final years before his murder conflict his earlier actions.

The may manifesto is a clear example of this, however like i mentioned Chaulev, Vlahov etc we're the group who forced Todor Aleksandrov and Protogerov to withdraw their signatures.


Sadly many of our freedom fighters on the 19th century and 20th century can be argued to have negative sides, Misirkov, Aleksandrov, Apostol Petkov etc. It was just the enviroment of their time just as there is Macedonians who are either pro Russia or Pro U.S today.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by VMRO

The may manifesto is a clear example of this, however like i mentioned Chaulev, Vlahov etc we're the group who forced Todor Aleksandrov and Protogerov to withdraw their signatures.

I think there were other reasons then Chaulev/Vlahov publishing his signature that forced Aleksandrov to withdraw or deny that he signed it. However, if this is what you mean, it shows again that Aleksandrov was worried more about his political position in relation to the Macedonian movement and the Bulgarian government than he was about advocating for a unified Macedonian agenda.

Sadly many of our freedom fighters on the 19th century and 20th century can be argued to have negative sides, Misirkov, Aleksandrov, Apostol Petkov etc. It was just the enviroment of their time just as there is Macedonians who are either pro Russia or Pro U.S today.

I'm not doubting that. Though, I think if we look at the whole of Aleksandrov's actions and words, in the context of the Macedonian Cause and other contexts, there's really no place for him as a hero or someone who truly helped our cause. There's only so much that we can excuse as "well, that was the times" or "he was a product of his environment."

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by Niko777

Thanks for sharing this, I would have thought that 3/4 supported the MPO, especially in the period before WWII.

Also, in addition, I reviewed all of MPO's official membership data. In the mid-1930s, its paying membership was at its highest ever at about 2,000 members. From the late 1920s through the late-1950s, its membership remained between 1,800 and 2,000 people. However, by the establishment of the MOC as an independent church in 1967, its membership was down to 1,500 people. After that date until the early 1990s, it listed exactly 1,500 every year as its membership, which tells me they really weren't keeping an accurate tally anymore. Especially compared to the 1950s, when they would give precise numbers:


1950: 1,922 members
1951: 1,980 members
1952: 1,986 members
1953: 1,980 members
1954: 1,962 members
1956: 1,943 members
1959: 1,894 members

There membership in the 1920s and 1930s was not any higher because of three reasons: 1) many Macedonians were not on board with the MPO from the get-go (think pastor David Nakoff and his followers); 2) MPO suffered major divisions once the Mihailov-Protogerov feud escalated with Protogerov's death; MPO almost ceased to exist, but the Protogerovists essentially left en-masse; 3) the creation of the Macedonian People's League attracted most of those Macedonians who a) were from the old IMRO guard (those that fought in Ilinden); b) had supported Macedonian ethnicity and language; and c) were left-leaning.

I wrote the following in my MPO book. It'll help put some context to the MPO divisions in the late 1920s and early 1930s.

These developments profoundly impacted MPO’s members, especially its leadership. Zografoff, the Tribune editor, feverishly stood against Mihajlovists and their violent methods. Assen Avramoff, who was born in Sofia but whose family hailed from the Drama region in Aegean Macedonia, arrived in the U.S. on September 25, 1929.54 A graduate of Sofia’s Law School, he was elected as secretary to the MPO Central Committee in order to replace Jordan Chkatroff, who had left for the Balkans 1929 to act as “prime minister” of Mihajlov’s IMRO, as well as loyal adviser to Ivan Mihajlov.55 Avramoff was staunchly pro-Mihajlov. He was described as a good friend and confidant of Mihajlov.56 Nizamoff had noted that, since Avramoff’s arrival, Zografoff and Avramoff “were not on speaking terms.”57

Even though Zografoff was against Mihajlov’s methods, he believed that the MPO should not choose sides in the internal struggles overseas.58 Furthermore, unlike several of his MPO associates, he maintained that just because Macedonians’ language was classified as ‘Bulgarian’, it did not mean Macedonia and Macedonians should not be independent or considered as their own people. In 1929, he wrote:

The Serbians have closed all of the non-Serbian churches, schools and libraries; have expelled, imprisoned, tortured or killed bishops, preachers, teachers in Macedonia; have placed in prison and tortured Macedonian and Croatian students; have arrested, imprisoned, tortured, expelled or killed many Macedonian, Montenegrin and Croatian patriots, business men, educators, for the simple reason of their unwillingness to change their nationality. …

Mr. Vukovich “calls Macedonia a myth.” Macedonia existed even before Serbia. Macedonia has fought Turkey and is fighting the new oppressors, Servia and Greece, to become free and independent. In this struggle for freedom lives have been lost on all sides. The peace of the world has been threatened. Is that a myth? Now there is a revolution in Macedonia against Servia and Greece. Is that a myth?

Mr. Vukovich states since there is no Macedonian language, Macedonia should not be independent. If that argument holds good Switzerland, Austria [and] even the United States should not be independent. The language does not govern the making of a country. When the population of a given territory of a considerable size wants to be free and independent, as the original American colonies wanted to be free and independent, this population has right to establish an independent country. This is the principle of the American Declaration of independence.59

Zografoff’s views and writings were much more blatantly pro-Macedonian – and much less Bulgarian-friendly – than those of most other early MPO leaders, as we will see in Chapter Two. In opposition to Zografoff, Avramoff and other MPO leaders wanted to align with Mihajlov.60 These members considered Mihajlov to be Macedonia’s number one “warrior”.61 These differences accumulated and climaxed at MPO’s 1930 convention. Nizamoff described the mood of that convention:

The Youngstown convention was stormy. Tempers ran high. I had been elected chairman and there were moments when I, too, lost my temper. The divisions and battles of the IMRO across the ocean had affected all of us. During the first and second days the sessions continued until early midnight. But the time came when all of us had to think for the preservation of our organization. Finally, with some help from me, Avramoff, presenting his case with the mastery and logic of a jurist, succeeded in swaying most of the delegates to his viewpoint and the neutrality voted the year before was rescinded. The MPO in the United States agreed to support the side which had punished-General Protogeroff "to save the Macedonian movement from a takeover by incompetent and corrupt left-wingers".62

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

I think there were other reasons then Chaulev/Vlahov publishing his signature that forced Aleksandrov to withdraw or deny that he signed it. However, if this is what you mean, it shows again that Aleksandrov was worried more about his political position in relation to the Macedonian movement and the Bulgarian government than he was about advocating for a unified Macedonian agenda.




I'm not doubting that. Though, I think if we look at the whole of Aleksandrov's actions and words, in the context of the Macedonian Cause and other contexts, there's really no place for him as a hero or someone who truly helped our cause. There's only so much that we can excuse as "well, that was the times" or "he was a product of his environment."

Aleksandrov and Protogerov apparently did not want to withdraw their signatures and it was agreed the document won't be released until Aleksandrov and Protogerov sell it to their organisation and CC.

Even though this was agreed, the vienna faction rushed and published the manifesto in the Balkan federation to which Aleksandrov and co we're blindsided and were forced to withdraw.

[vicsinad]

Originally Posted by VMRO

Aleksandrov and Protogerov apparently did not want to withdraw their signatures and it was agreed the document won't be released until Aleksandrov and Protogerov sell it to their organisation and CC.

Even though this was agreed, the vienna faction rushed and published the manifesto in the Balkan federation to which Aleksandrov and co we're blindsided and were forced to withdraw.

From what I've read, Chaulev and Vlahov agreed not to publish it until Aleksandrov was back in Bulgaria. They waited until July 15 -- over two months after it was signed and when Aleksandrov was already back in Bulgaria -- to publish it. Whether or not all of them (Aleksandrov, Protogerov, Chaulev, Vlahov, etc.) agreed to wait to sell it to the organization has not been established, as far as my knowledge. Before Aleksandrov's assassination, a number of IMRO leaders in Macedonia had approved of the signing, including Aleko. As a matter of fact, even before Aleksandrov and Protogerov left for Vienna, the president of the Ilinden Organization (Zankov) and the editor of Ilinden (Jovkov) already had thrown their support behind the move to come to an agreement with the communists. Thus, I don't accept that Aleksandrov was blindsided by a supposed early release when most of the true IMRO guard was behind it.

It's absolutely likely that the Bulgarian government and traitors within the Macedonian movement knew what Aleksandrov was up to in his dealings with the communists well before the publication of the manifesto. Had Aleksandrov never denounced the May Manifesto, his Macedonian following was so strong that his followers would've never questioned his decision to have had signed the document. Aleksandrov played a political game with the Bulgarian government and the communists and he got in over his head.

[VMRO]

Originally Posted by vicsinad

From what I've read, Chaulev and Vlahov agreed not to publish it until Aleksandrov was back in Bulgaria. They waited until July 15 -- over two months after it was signed and when Aleksandrov was already back in Bulgaria -- to publish it. Whether or not all of them (Aleksandrov, Protogerov, Chaulev, Vlahov, etc.) agreed to wait to sell it to the organization has not been established, as far as my knowledge. Before Aleksandrov's assassination, a number of IMRO leaders in Macedonia had approved of the signing, including Aleko. As a matter of fact, even before Aleksandrov and Protogerov left for Vienna, the president of the Ilinden Organization (Zankov) and the editor of Ilinden (Jovkov) already had thrown their support behind the move to come to an agreement with the communists. Thus, I don't accept that Aleksandrov was blindsided by a supposed early release when most of the true IMRO guard was behind it.

It's absolutely likely that the Bulgarian government and traitors within the Macedonian movement knew what Aleksandrov was up to in his dealings with the communists well before the publication of the manifesto. Had Aleksandrov never denounced the May Manifesto, his Macedonian following was so strong that his followers would've never questioned his decision to have had signed the document. Aleksandrov played a political game with the Bulgarian government and the communists and he got in over his head.

I'll touch back on this at the end of the month when i have more time to revisit the sources that talk about this. From memory it was Shandanov's memoirs but i could be wrong.

I enjoy these type of discussions, good to get another perspective from someone who is knowledgeable in that period of Macedonian history.