Macedonian Truth Forum   

Go Back   Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian Truth Forum > Macedonian History

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-01-2009, 05:22 PM   #1
TrueMacedonian
Senior Member
 
TrueMacedonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,809
TrueMacedonian will become famous soon enough
Default Interesting info on Devsirme and the Janissaries

The info provided in this forum is very good concerning Devsirme and the Ottoman Janissary Corps. There is an abundance of info in there (of course concerning Macedonians). Hope you enjoy it

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=159494
__________________
Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!
TrueMacedonian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-25-2010, 07:25 PM   #2
Onur
Senior Member
 
Onur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Izmir, Turkiye
Posts: 2,389
Onur is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
The info provided in this forum is very good concerning Devsirme and the Ottoman Janissary Corps. There is an abundance of info in there (of course concerning Macedonians). Hope you enjoy it

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...d.php?t=159494

This thread is so nice. There is a good collection of pictures there.


There was a tv program in Turkish tv channel about Janissary tonight. They represented a Turkish miniature which shows a scene of Janissary recruitment. I found it on the web;



This miniature is from a book written in the year of 1558. Historians in the program described as this;

This shows a scene of Janissary recruitment somewhere close to Mostar bridge at Bosnia. The six boys with red clothing are the recruited ones. The two men at the left side are recruitment officers. They are taking notes about the new recruits, their family name, birthplace, age and information like that. The villagers and the priest of the town are shown at right side. They are talking with one of the officer.

Historians in the program said that the average age of new recruits was 15-16. It was forbidden to recruit a boy as a Janissary if there is no other son in his family or if the boy was married. It was also forbidden to select boys if they were belong to a family with clerics, landlords, royal families. It was also not preferable to recruit someone with city life experience like trade businesses. So, most of Janissary was from poor, rural side families.

Last edited by Onur; 08-25-2010 at 07:35 PM.
Onur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 08:23 AM   #3
Onur
Senior Member
 
Onur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Izmir, Turkiye
Posts: 2,389
Onur is on a distinguished road
Default

Probably you don't know this side of the Janissary;

Especially after the Ottoman-Hapsburg wars in 16th century and so on, western Europeans heard the instruments like cymbals and bass drums for the first time from the Janissary military band called mehter. It`s been said that especially during the sieges of Vienna, mehter band continuously played their music at the gates of Vienna non-stop for a month and this started a fashion craze in Europe which continued like more than 200 years `till 19th century `till the political climate changes between the Turks and western Europeans.

This movement named Turquerie was often reflected in the art of the period. Music, paintings, architecture, and artifacts were frequently inspired by the Turkish styles and methods.

Wikipedia article is very good about this;

Quote:
Turquerie

Turquerie was the Orientalist fashion in Western Europe from the 16th to 18th centuries for imitating aspects of Turkish art and culture. Many different Western European countries were fascinated by the exotic and relatively unknown culture of Turkey, which was part of the Ottoman Empire, and at the beginning of the period the only power to pose a serious military threat to Europe. The West had a growing interest in Turkish-made products and art, including music, visual arts, architecture, and sculptures. This fashionable phenomenon became more popular through trading routes and increased diplomatic relationships between the Ottomans and the European nations, exemplified by the Franco-Ottoman alliance and Persian embassy to Louis XIV in 1715. Ambassadors and traders often returned home with tales of exotic places and souvenirs of their adventures.[3]

The movement was often reflected in the art of the period. Music, paintings, architecture, and artifacts were frequently inspired by the Turkish and Ottoman styles and methods. Paintings in particular portrayed the Ottomans with bright colours and sharp contrasts, suggesting their interesting peculiarity and exotic nature.[4]


Madame de Pompadour portrayed as a Turkish lady in 1747 by Charles André van Loo


History of the movement

In the wake of the Age of Exploration, roughly between the 15th and 18th centuries, there was an explosion in the number of commodities and availability of products. People were using newly created cartography and using these maps to explore the world on paper. There was an accumulation of more objects and a desire for more acquisitions. Coupling this, there was the value of exoticism, valuing things that came from a great distance. Europeans and Ottomans alike were developing a consciousness of themselves in relation to the broader world.[5] At the same time the Ottomans were slowly ceasing to be regarded as a serious military threat to Western Europe, despite their continuing occupation of the Balkans, and campaigns such as that ended by the Battle of Vienna as late as 1683.

New patterns of consumption were arising, especially with trading ships being able to navigate around Africa. Commodities that were once expensive were becoming more affordable. Products often define people in terms of gender, age, and availability of access. This notion of social definition outlines the main theme of the explosion of commodities from 16th century and onwards. The exchange system had to do precisely with accessibility and availability of commodities on a grand scale.[6] It is important to note that this was not just a European phenomenon. The Europeans were not the only people who developed a sensibility of how consuming different things could define their relationships domestically and abroad. In this context, there was a broader view of consumption and one’s place within the world. A person would consume in order to show off their financial position and their social location.[7] Coffee is an example of a commodity that became more popular as Europeans “discover” it in Ottoman lands and experience it. Turquerie would not be just about furnishings, decorations, art, fashion, and clothing, but also what people put in their bodies.


European perspective

There is something unique about ways Europeans developed views of exoticism as greater emphasis is put on empire building and colonies in other nations. There was a growing fashion for Turkish styles in Europe in the 15th and 16th centuries. The Europeans began to see Ottomans not as worthy rivals that they had to contend with and imitate militarily, politically, or diplomatically, rather as having quaint and strange fashions that could be consumed. Consuming these exotic fashions would show one’s elite place in society as well as display their open mindedness and interest in the world.[8] This fashionability is brought by the presence of Europeans in the Ottoman Court and the acts of bringing back their products to Europe. The increased mercantile relationships between the Turkish people and the Europeans aided this process. The continuation of these trading systems help spread the new fashions quickly in Europe.[9]


Decorations and patterns

A brightly-coloured Turkish style of decoration was used on many types of objects, including timepieces. Many of those imported had the hours and creator’s name in Arabic characters. A person who owned one of these timepieces was one with an increased social status.[11]

The Turkish grandeur portrayed by the sultans could be attractive to Europeans. Agostino Veneziano made a portrait of Suleyman the Magnificent, sultan of the Ottoman Empire in 1520. He was known as the “grand Turk” and constantly disrupted European balance. The image portrays the sultan as a gentle, yet barbaric person. He was most known for executing the wishes of the sultana, Roxelana, who wanted their children murdered to secure the throne for one of their sons.[12]

Fabrics were often bright, rich, and embroidered, as depicted in the painting, Himan de la Grande Mosquee by Joseph-Marie Vien in 1748. In the context of turquerie, Turkish textiles were also a luxury in the elitist European homes. They often had velvet grounds with stylized floral motifs. They were often woven in Asia Minor for the European market or, more commonly, as Venetian, under Turkish influence. Italian-styled textiles were often woven by the Ottoman Turks for the Venetians because of their cheap labour and continued business relationships.[13]


Portraits: European and American

European portraits of the 18th century often portrayed one’s social position and wealth. The dress, posture, and props were carefully selected in order to communicate the status correctly. In order to better present oneself in an elitist, exotic fashion, there were often portraits painted in the style of turquerie. This included wearing loose, flowing gowns belted with ornate bands of embroidered cloth. Some have donned ermine-trimmed robes while others have tasselled turbans. Most have abandoned their corsets and attached strings of pearls to their hair.[15] Many portraits have Turkish carpets displayed on the floor, woven with bright colours and exotic designs. The loose clothing and the unorthodox styles add to the stereotypical sexualization of the Ottomans of the time.[16] Europeans were obsessed with Turkish style of portraits at this time. There are also many portraits of Turkish people by European artists. They were often depicted as backward, different, and exotic. It was rare that portraits were painted without wearing their traditional cultural clothing. Perhaps the most influential transformation into the turquerie vogue in Europe was done by Lady Mary Wortley Montagu. Montagu went to Turkey in 1717 when her husband was posted as ambassador there. Her collected letters while there, describing Turkish fashion, were distributed widely in manuscript form. They were then printed upon her death in 1762.[17] Her letters helped shape how Europeans interpreted the Turkish fashion and how to dress. This phenomenon eventually found its way across the Atlantic and in colonial America, where Montagu’s letters were also published.[18]


Mrs. Thomas Gage by John Singleton Copley, 1771. A perfect representation of the turquerie vogue.



A Woman in Turkish Dress, pastel on parchment, by Jean-Étienne Liotard



Turquerie by Maurice Quentin de La Tour


Opera

In 18th century Europe, it was in fashion to smoke Turkish tobacco in a Turkish pipe, wearing a Turkish robe, all while in an elaborate Turkish costume.[19] European opera was influenced heavily by the idea of turquerie. Mehmed II (1451–1481), the conqueror who is considered the founder of the Ottoman Empire, had many operas written about him. His defeat of Constantinople in 1453 was the basis of the German opera Mehmed II, composed by Reinhard Keiser in 1693.[20] As well, there were many operas based on the ongoing conflicts between Timur and Beyazid I, including Tamerlano by George Handel. These stories of perseverance and passion appealed to many Europeans and therefore gained popularity. One of France’s most important opera genres was tragedie lyrique, depicted by Scanderberg, with music by François Rebel and Francois Francoeur and the libretto by Antoine Houdar de la Motte in 1735.[21] This opera was visually one of the most elaborate of the Turkish operas, with detailed scenic designs for mosques and seraglio courts. As well, many exotic characters were displayed.

Operas using themes from turquerie were in the usual European languages but tried to imitate the Turkish culture and customs. It offered a world of fantasy, splendor, and adventure that was unattainable by the average person.[22] Audiences would be fascinated with the Turkish and Ottoman institutions depicted. The stories and implications as well as the extravagant costumes and elaborate staging appealed to the people. The Europeans craved reality in their depiction of the Turkish peoples. During performances, females would often be in the latest fashion, where local colour was suggested by foreign attire or numerous ornaments. The males tended to wear more authentic Turkish dress than the female, including a turban, sash, long caftan, and binding with rich material.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turquerie

Quote:
Turkish music (style)

"Turkish music", in the sense described here, is not really music of Turkey, but rather a musical style that was occasionally used by the European composers of the Classical music era. This music was modeled — though often only distantly — on the music of Turkish military bands, specifically the Janissary bands.


Description

"Turkish" music is always lively in tempo, and is almost always a kind of march.

When "Turkish" music was scored for orchestra, it normally used extra percussion instruments not otherwise found in orchestras of the Classical period: typically, the bass drum, the triangle, and cymbals. These instruments really were used by the Turks in their military music, so at least the instrumentation of "Turkish" music was authentic. Often there is also a piccolo, whose penetrating tone adds to the outdoor atmosphere.

It seems that at least part of the entertainment value of "Turkish" music was the perceived exoticness. The Turks were well known to the citizens of Vienna (where Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven all worked) as military opponents, and indeed the centuries of warfare between Austria and Ottoman Empire had only started going generally in Austria's favor around the late 17th century. The differences in culture, as well as the frisson derived from the many earlier Turkish invasions, apparently gave rise to a fascination among the Viennese for all things Turkish—or even ersatz Turkish. This was part of a general trend in European arts at the time.


Examples

All three of the great Classical era composers, Haydn, Mozart, and Beethoven, wrote at least some "Turkish" music.


Mozart

* Mozart's opera "The Abduction from the Seraglio" (Die Entführung aus dem Serail), from 1782, is the quintessential work of Turkish music, as the whole plot centers on the stereotyping of comically sinister Turks. (The Pasha, at least, turns out noble and generous in the end.) The overture to the opera as well as two marches for the Janissary chorus are Turkish music in the sense just described.

* The Piano Sonata in A, K. 331 (1783) ends with the famous rondo marked "Alla Turca", "in the Turkish style". Rapid arpeggios in the left hand are used to imitate the "Turkish" instruments. The imitation probably came closer with the piano of Mozart's day, whose bass strings made something of a rattle when played loudly, than is possible on modern instruments.

* The finale of the Violin Concerto No. 5 in A major K. 219 (1775), sometimes called the "Turkish" Concerto, is interrupted by a loud episode of Turkish music. Mozart adapted this passage from an earlier ballet, "Le gelosie del seraglio" ("The jealous seraglio women") K. 135a, composed for Milan in 1772. In the concerto, the cellos and double basses add to the percussive effect by playing their instruments coll' arco al roverscio, that is to say, col legno, striking the strings with the wood of the bow.


Haydn

* Haydn's opera L'incontro improvviso ("The Unforeseen Encounter", 1775) is somewhat similar in its subject to Mozart's later "Abduction from the Seraglio" and also includes Turkish music, for instance the overture.[1]

* Haydn's "Military" Symphony (1794) uses Turkish music in both the second movement (which depicts a battle) and in a brief reprise at the end of the finale.


Beethoven

* In 1811, Beethoven wrote an overture and incidental music to a play by August von Kotzebue called The Ruins of Athens, premiered in Pest in 1812. One item from the incidental music (Op. 113, No. 4) is the Turkish march. Beethoven also wrote a set of variations on his march for piano, Op. 76.

* Beethoven's Wellington's Victory, also called the "Battle" Symphony (Op. 91, 1813) commemorates the British victory in the Battle of Vitoria. The opposing British and French armies march to battle with Turkish-music versions of their respective battle songs, "Rule Britannia" and "Malbrouk s'en va-t-en guerre".

* Beethoven returned again to "Turkish" music, by this time rather out of vogue, in a passage of the final movement of his Ninth Symphony (1824). A tenor soloist, assisted by the tenors and basses of the chorus, sings a florid variation on the famous theme, accompanied by Turkish music from the orchestra.


Others

Turkish music also appears in works of Jean-Philippe Rameau, Michael Haydn, Gioacchino Rossini, Ludwig Spohr, in two operas of Gluck's, Iphigenie auf Tauris (1764) and Die Pilger von Mekka (1779), and in Symphony No.6 A minor ("Sinfonie turque") by Friedrich Witt (1770–1836). Paul Wranitzky, who in his lifetime was one of Vienna's most famed composers also wrote Turkish influenced music, including a large-scale symphony. Franz Xaver Süssmayr, best known for completing Mozart's unfinished Requiem, also composed several Turkish works, including operas and symphonies. Other composers who have written excellent examples of Turkish music include Joseph Martin Kraus, Ferdinand Kauer and Ferdinando Paer.


History

An important impetus for "Turkish" music occurred in 1699, when Austria and Ottoman Empire negotiated the Treaty of Karlowitz. To celebrate the treaty, the Turkish diplomatic delegation brought a Janissary band along with other performers to Vienna for several days of performances.

Although the Janissary sound was familiar in Europe during the 18th century, the Classical composers were not the first to make use of it; rather, the first imitators were military bands. The cultural influence at first involved actual importation of Turkish musicians, as Henry George Farmer relates:

"The credit for having introduced this battery of percussion and concussion into Europe usually goes to Poland which, in the 1720s, had received a full Turkish band from the Sultan. Russia, not to be outdone, sought a similar favour of the Sublime Porte in 1725, Prussia and Austria following suit, and by the 1770s most other countries had fallen under the sway of Janissary Music."[3]

The importation of actual musicians was only a temporary phenomenon, and the later custom was to assign the Turkish instruments in European military bands to black performers, who dressed for their jobs in exotic Eastern garb.

Thus, "Turkish" music in Europe had two connotations—Eastern and military—for Classical-era composers. The Turkish association did not evaporate soon. Even during the 1820s, in planning the last movement of the Ninth Symphony, Beethoven made a note to himself specifically stating that it would contain "Turkish" music. The use of the slang term "Turkish section" to describe the percussion section of an orchestra apparently persisted into modern times.

Eventually it became possible to write music with bass drum, triangle, and cymbals without necessarily evoking a Turkish atmosphere, and in the later 19th century symphonic composers made free use of these instruments. Thus in the long run the Turkish instruments are a gift to Western classical music from the Turkish military-music tradition.


The "Turkish stop" on early pianos

Around the turn of the 19th century, "Turkish" music was so popular that piano manufacturers made special pianos with a "Turkish stop," also called the "military" or "Janissary" stop. The player would press a pedal that caused a bell to ring and/or a padded hammer to strike the soundboard in imitation of a bass drum. The sound file for the first musical example above attempts to mimic the latter effect manually with a modern piano.

According to Edwin M. Good, the Turkish stop was popular for playing the Mozart K. 331 rondo mentioned above, and "many were the pianists who gleefully used the Janissary stop to embellish it."[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_music_%28style%29




This is "Marche pour la cérémonie des Turcs"(anthem for the ceremony of the Turks) by Jean-Baptiste Lully, 17th century composer. He was the official musician of the French imperial court of the Louis XIV. Most of the works of Jean-Baptiste Lully was highly influenced from Janissary mehter music. It`s been said that he was in Vienna during the 2nd siege of Vienna by Ottoman Empire at 17th century. This is my personal favorite. Baroque style with the banging drums of mehter band. Lully`s music is really amazing;

YouTube - Lully - Marche pour la cérémonie des turcs




This is the jazz fantasy version of Mozart`s "Alla Turca"(Turkish March). Performed by Fazil Say on piano and Sertab Erener`s vocals;

YouTube - Fazil Say - Alla Turca Trailer #1

Last edited by Onur; 12-04-2010 at 08:40 AM.
Onur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 11:36 AM   #4
Serdarot
Member
 
Serdarot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sred Nemci
Posts: 605
Serdarot is on a distinguished road
Default

fascinating thing, those Elite Turkish Troops, the Janicar and the Hispahi (Spaia, Spahia)...

tnx Onur / TM
__________________
Bratot:
Quote:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.
Serdarot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 12:54 PM   #5
Onur
Senior Member
 
Onur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Izmir, Turkiye
Posts: 2,389
Onur is on a distinguished road
Default

And these are real mehter music;


This one is about a castle in Budapest, Hungary in a strategic location. Austrians took over the castle of Estergon from Ottoman Empire but Turks took it over again by the nephew of Sokollu(Sokolovic) Mehmet pasha in 16th century. This song is about the recapture of that castle;
YouTube - Estergon kalesi




Classical music orchestra accompany mehter band here;
YouTube - gafil ne bilir





This is an anthem for the naval soldiers. It`s about the admiral Barbaros(Barbarossa) Hayreddin pasha who defeated the Pope`s Holy League crusaders naval army(Spaniards, Venice, Malta, knights of Saint John etc.) in the mediterranean sea at 16th century. Pope wanted to capture Greece, Aegean Macedonia and other parts of mediterranean and he sent his best Latin naval force under the command of Andrea Doria but they have been defeated by Turkish naval force. Barbaros Hayreddin`s mausoleum is at the coast of bosphorus in Istanbul and whenever a Turkish naval army ship passes by the bosphorus, they always salute him there;
YouTube - barbaros marsi
someone wrote some parts of the lyrics on youtube;

Whence on the sea's horizon comes that roar?
Can it be Barbarossa now returning
From Tunis or Algiers or from the Isles?
Two hundred vessels ride upon the waves,
Coming from lands the rising Crescent lights:
O blessed ships, from what seas are ye come?





YouTube - ceddin deden






Turkish Mehter with Russian Red Army Choir in a concert in Moscow;
YouTube - MEHTERÂN & KIZILORDU KOROSU £££ Genç Osman





This is the mehter band of the military museum in Istanbul. They give a small concert once a week there and i watched them once. If you ever come to Istanbul one day, you should watch these guys since they are the best. This video is nothing comparing to watching them live. It gives you goose bumps;
YouTube - Turkish Ottoman Military Band Mehter

Last edited by Onur; 12-04-2010 at 01:17 PM.
Onur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 04:34 PM   #6
Serdarot
Member
 
Serdarot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sred Nemci
Posts: 605
Serdarot is on a distinguished road
Default

can i say

tesekkür kardas?

or must be

tesekkür ederim, kardas? (the short form of "thank you")

in some old Turkish dialects spoken in Rumely, i think they used to say only "shukjur"... many people still use it

i dont like wars and violence at all, and almost all what is connected with millitary i concider for wrong, but i loved watching those videos, and some other videos with Janicar Music, couse they say a lot to me

I guess the spirit of my Ancestors :P

keep on posting interesting material, specialy about the Janicar, m8

my regards
__________________
Bratot:
Quote:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

Last edited by Serdarot; 12-04-2010 at 04:38 PM.
Serdarot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 05:35 PM   #7
Onur
Senior Member
 
Onur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Izmir, Turkiye
Posts: 2,389
Onur is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serdarot View Post
can i say

tesekkür kardas?

or must be

tesekkür ederim, kardas? (the short form of "thank you")

in some old Turkish dialects spoken in Rumely, i think they used to say only "shukjur"... many people still use it
Yes Serdarot, both are correct So, ben tesekkür ederim





Quote:
i dont like wars and violence at all, and almost all what is connected with millitary i concider for wrong, but i loved watching those videos, and some other videos with Janicar Music, couse they say a lot to me

I guess the spirit of my Ancestors :P
Well, me neither. I don't like wars but Janissary is something belongs to medieval age anymore and it`s some kind of nostalgia for us, nothing else. As you can see, it`s generally an attraction for tourists anymore but as you can see, it was much more than that centuries ago. I believe Janissary was the point where militarism becomes an art. It was the art of war. Mehter founded in 13th century and it was the world`s first military music band ever and then they introduced several instruments to the west and eventually becoming the primary source of music style when western world created their own military bands. Also one more thing; contrary to popular belief, Mehter`s job wasn't only entertainment. Since communication was quite difficult at warfare in that era, Mehter`s music was the primary factor in coordination and communication between all the soldiers because all of them knew what to do in every song and in different tempo.


And yes, like i said here several times b4, most of the Janissary soldiers was coming from Macedonia and Bosnia, so yes, it should be the spirit of your ancestors

For me, yes we the Turks are generally considered as militarized people by the standards of European values but we cant help it since it`s in our history. We cannot simply erase it from our minds and i believe we shouldn't. Some cultures are good at art, some in working discipline, some in sports and this is what we were/are good at

Last edited by Onur; 12-04-2010 at 05:45 PM.
Onur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 05:51 PM   #8
Serdarot
Member
 
Serdarot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sred Nemci
Posts: 605
Serdarot is on a distinguished road
Default

great answer ,lol

i am not so new to the Janicar "story", i didn´t knew some things like they dont take if it´s the only son, and some other small details, but for example, i know enough for some their battles (example their Heroic attack on Stambol / Istanbul), and of course, i know many folk stories about the Janicari.

Do you know that also Mehmed Pasha Sokolu / Sokolovic is kept in our "folklor"?

For example, there is a famous Macedonian Book, about Kalesh Angja

In that book, what is true story, Mehmed Pasha Sokolu is mentioned, and also the Janicari (Angja´s brother was a Janicar)

That about the spirit of the ancestors was not a joke, i am 102,7 % sure i had ancestors who were Janicar, and also ancestors who fought against the Janicar...

(the 102,7 % is a "local" Macedonian joke, concider it as 100 % )
__________________
Bratot:
Quote:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.
Serdarot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 06:10 PM   #9
Onur
Senior Member
 
Onur's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Izmir, Turkiye
Posts: 2,389
Onur is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Serdarot View Post
Do you know that also Mehmed Pasha Sokolu / Sokolovic is kept in our "folklor"?

For example, there is a famous Macedonian Book, about Kalesh Angja

In that book, what is true story, Mehmed Pasha Sokolu is mentioned, and also the Janicari (Angja´s brother was a Janicar)
Sokolovic was the most famous of all Grand Viziers in Ottoman Empire history. He and even few members of his family served(sons, nephews etc) in the most important positions of the state.

I knew that he still get praised by the Croats, Serbs and Bosnians but i didn't know that he was also in Macedonian folk tales.




Quote:
That about the spirit of the ancestors was not a joke, i am 102,7 % sure i had ancestors who were Janicar, and also ancestors who fought against the Janicar...

(the 102,7 % is a "local" Macedonian joke, concider it as 100 % )
Hmm, thats quite interesting mate. It`s an honor for me to speak to a descendant of Janissary then
Onur is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-04-2010, 06:24 PM   #10
Serdarot
Member
 
Serdarot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Sred Nemci
Posts: 605
Serdarot is on a distinguished road
Default

well, i think almost every Macedonian had some Janicar in his family, couse it was a "tax" that was "paid" regulary for few centuries... (i dont concider it as something special, to have Janicar Ancestors...)

Danok vo Krv - Tax in Blood

it is also kept very well in our folklor / tradition

But mostly in negative memories... very few of those who remained Orthodox Christ were happy that their Children were token away. But since we were / are also very militaristic folk, i am pretty sure some concidered it as a Honour...

Even our greatest Independance fighters like Goce Delchev were visiting Turkish Military schools...

Complicated it is, the period of the Turkish occupation of Macedonia... very complicated to understand, specialy for bulgars and "greeks" :P

edit:

try find that book:

Stale Popov - Kalesh Angja

edit 2:

i am trying to find out if there is a Turkish or some English / French translation
__________________
Bratot:
Quote:
Никој не е вечен, а каузава не е нова само е адаптирана на новите услови и ќе се пренесува и понатаму.

Last edited by Serdarot; 12-04-2010 at 06:29 PM.
Serdarot is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
devsirme


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump