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Old 03-14-2010, 07:04 AM   #1
Napoleon
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Default Modern Greece's Multi-Ethnic Coloured Rainbow

Everybody has heard of the Arvanite Albanians, Vlachs, Karaman Turk, Roma, Chinese who are all now proud neo-Hellenes, or more recently, self proclaimed "Greek-Macedonians", I thought I start this thread to give other lessor known peoples who form an integral part of modern Greece's 98% 'pure Greek', richly coloured multi-Ethnic rainbow credit where credit is due.

The Urums

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urums

Quote:
Urums, singular Urum (Greek: Ουρούμ Urúm, Turkish and Crimean Tatar: Urum, IPA: [uˈrum]) is a broad historical term that was used by some Turkic-speaking peoples (Turks, Crimean Tatars) to define Greeks who lived in Muslim states, particularly in the Ottoman Empire and Crimea. In contemporary ethnography, the term Urum (or Urum Greek) applies only to Turkic-speaking Greek population.
Antiochian Greeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Greeks

Quote:
Antiochian Greeks are the members of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch who have resided in the territory of contemporary Turkish province of Hatay, but many of these members are ethnic Assyrians/Syriacs, who before spoke Syriac and celebrate the Liturgie in Old-Syriac. They are now primarily speakers of Levantine Arabic, but also of Greek and Turkish.
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Old 03-14-2010, 08:23 AM   #2
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good post napoleon and then there is the armenian and kurdish greeks too.
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Old 09-26-2010, 06:21 AM   #3
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I have missed this thread somehow. So here's my chance to add something to our MTO library regarding this subject.

This is all borrowed from "My Opera" blog back in 25. FEBRUARY 2009, 00:17:22.

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...ther-urumi-why




Greeks don`t have a specific name as a tribe, but they call each other Urumi.Why?

The dictionary of three languages from Georgi Pulevski
For the "greeks", Georgia tells us that they are called the name Gorci (gora-forest), and the turks called them Karakachans.
“But Greeks don`t have a specific name as a tribe, but they call each other Urumi (romans ?) but according to history we know "greeks" as Egyptians http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...ow.dml/3003682 and not Europeans”.


But,what does the word Urumi really mean?

Modern Yunanistans belive that word URUMI means ROMANS.
They are wrong.

URUM`s and ROMANS
Rome=Ρώμη

Urum http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=uum

A language of Georgia
ISO 639-3:
Rum-Population 97,746 in Georgia (2000 WCD). Population total all countries: 192,729.
Region Caucasus.
In recent years there has been emigration of Urum speakers from Georgia to Greece. Also spoken in Greece, Ukraine.
Dialects Related to Crimean Tatar. A number of inherently intelligible dialects.
Classification-Altaic, Turkic
Comments Spoken by ethnic 'Greeks'.

Also spoken in:
Ukraine
Language name Urum
Population 94,983 in Ukraine (2000 WCD).
Region- A few villages in the Donetsk Oblast of southeastern Ukraine. 10 villages total.
Comments Spoken by ethnic 'Greeks'.

URUMI http://www.qypchaq.unesco.kz/urums-en.htm
The Urums are a national minority...
The official name of these people is Greeks.
North Azovian Urums - Greeks Speaking Turkic Language

more about Urums (Greeks) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=urums&btnG=Search

there is mention of 686 Urums being deported from this
settlement in 1778
(Garkavec′ 1999: 8); this village, spelt Beščv or
Bešuj, renamed Dravjanka, does not exist today (1999,91);

Beš Qurtqa ; Beš Kurtka ; Bes Qurtqa ; Beschkurta ; Bes Qurtqa ; Qurtaj ; Ücqurtqa ; Bišqurtqa,...

Naselenite mesta od kade se iseluvani URUMITE...
sporedete so prviot popis vo ATINA,kade sto ziveele SHQIP....

Athens (1850 y).. http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia...ow.dml/2951693

This Western creation of "the glorious continuing story of the Greek People"....
After the War of Independence, when a Greek country arose, several Fanariot families came and established themselves around the king....

It is because Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village.
The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica ; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood.

Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations; that explains the ugliness of the Athenian type....

Tsalka Urums http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...earch&aq=f&oq=

They are sometimes referred to as the Trialeti Greeks or the Transcaucasian Turcophone Greeks. Pontian Greeks call them Τσαλκαλιδείς (Tsalkalideis); a name that refers to the Georgian town, where Urums once made up the largest ethnic community.

From the 18th to the early 20th century the Caucasus experienced mass migrations of Greeks from the Ottoman Empire.....

Subdivisions of Georgia...
Telavi, Terjola, Tetritskaro, Tianeti, Tsageri, Tsalenjikha, Tsalka (kako gejcite pontijci)
Tsalka kako tsigani..
calka kako cigani .....

cal=to move on or forward , proceed , go away
Kara Kacanlar (tur)=gejci=шумски бегалци

Tzalka=Talka=luta,zalutan
urum =fear, dread, alarm=strav,crn

p.s...
Τσίγκας=Tsigas http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Tsigas&btnG=Search =Tsigan?

explanation of modern URUMS about the origin of their last names
My last name means west in Turkish but hellenized (of course)
The history behind my last name is -
During the Ottoman occupation of Greece my Great x7 or 8 Grandpa (there were no last names in this period) and his brother, both from Pygros, were going around secretly killing Turks, taking their weapons, money, etc...
The Turks caught on and went around to try and find my Grandpa and his brother so they changed their name from Stassias or Stassinopolis (I forget, got to ask my Dad) to what it is today- West in Turkish......

other Urumians "changed names"....
Terzis (Terzi=tailor)
Tsiakiris(Blue-eyed)
Kanlis(Kanli means in Turkish bloody and metaphorical murderer,according to some old members of this family they originate from Halkidiki.An ancestor of them killed a Turk and he fled to our village)
Tsevremetzis(tsevreme=roast)
Tsiaousis(sergeant)
Pechlivanis(wrestler)
Tsiplakis(tsiplak=nude,metaphorical poor)
Daoultzis(drumer)
Giouzelis(handsome)
Garipis(diligent)
There are some other obviously of Turkish origin but i (URUM) can't etymologize them,like Moutaftsis,Ravanis,e.t.c

Kara; Karabachos; Karabatsos; Karabinis; Karabinos
Karabochos; Karadimos; Karafilis; Karagentsidis; Karageorgis
Karageorgos; Karagiannis; Karaglanis; Karagogeos;Karagounis
Karahalios; Karaiskakis; Karakatsani; Karakinos; Karakotsios
Karamanlis; Karameros; Karanasos; Karaoulanis; Karatossos
Karavidas and etc...

note:
kara (turkish)=black (non-white person)
Kara(Macedonian)=religious austerity L. ; a husband , master , lord ; from SAN=kara
Karan=king

Up here in northern Greece the refugees from Asia Minor, those we call Tourkophone, had names that ended in -oglou. These were changed when they came here. -opoulos was substituated for -oglou.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:08 AM   #4
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There are still plenty of 'oglous' who think they are pure Greek.
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Old 09-26-2010, 08:49 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill77 View Post
Kara; Karabachos; Karabatsos; Karabinis; Karabinos
Karabochos; Karadimos; Karafilis; Karagentsidis; Karageorgis
Karageorgos; Karagiannis; Karaglanis; Karagogeos;Karagounis
Karahalios; Karaiskakis; Karakatsani; Karakinos; Karakotsios
Karamanlis; Karameros; Karanasos; Karaoulanis; Karatossos
Karavidas and etc...

note:
kara (turkish)=black (non-white person)
so "Karamanlis" (The Macedonian....in his dreams) and "Karatzaferis" (The Hellene....also in his dreams) have surnames begining with a Turkish word meaning "Black".

If they wanted to really Hellenise there names and hide there Turkish past, why did they not just call them selves "Mavrosmanlis" and "Mavrostzaferis" ?


I suppose Greeks think they are a light complexioned race, Just like Alexander The Great,
Not a Mavros race.
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Old 09-26-2010, 09:14 AM   #6
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Urums are christian Tatar Turks by ethnically and linguistically. There is no doubt about that.

They lived around Crimea(historical Tatar land) to today`s Georgia, Azerbaijan and they never spoke Greek throughout history. Their mothertongue is Tatar dialect of Turkish as you can guess. They had pretty much no relation whatsoever with Greeks or Greek language except their adherence to Istanbul patriarchy in Ottoman Empire era.

When Russians decided to expel all the Tatar Turks out of Crimea, they were also the subjects of the great exodus even tough they weren't muslims because they were Turks nevertheless. They forcibly migrated into Anatolia. Some stayed in Turkey but some migrated into Greece. The ones who gone to Greece most likely undergone into Hellenic assimilation machine.




Quote:
There are some other obviously of Turkish origin but i (URUM) can't etymologize them,like Moutaftsis,Ravanis,e.t.c
I can explain these as well

Moutafsis; "Mutafchi" is like a tailor but he only tails rough materials like canvas for tents and stuff, hard leathers and so on.

Ravanis; Might be related with the dessert called "revani". So, this person might be a chef who makes desserts.


I can help our Greek forum members too, if they wanna learn the meaning of their surnames. So, Thessalo-niki, whats your surname, wanna learn what it means?





Quote:
There are still plenty of 'oglous' who think they are pure Greek.
It`s a fact that about ~400.000 of 1.1 million immigrants from Anatolia at 1923 was christian Turks who had no Greek conscious nor Greek language knowledge. These ~400.000 people was living around central Anatolia. It`s also obvious that Urums was simply Tatar Turks.

Actually, we gotta multiply the number of people who has "-ouglu" names with 10 cuz most of these people changed their surnames with "-is, -dis, -lis, -poulos" suffixes after they gone to Greece. Probably only 1 of 10 people still carries the surname with "-ouglu" in Greece currently.

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Old 09-26-2010, 09:22 AM   #7
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I know plenty of them 'oglous' here in Australia also, they aren't common, but there is enough of them to go around, lol.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:23 AM   #8
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There is also one interesting fact about these Turkish names;

When you ask this phenomenon of Turkish named "so-called Hellenes" to an ordinary Greek man in Athens, he would probably tell you that the Turks forced them to use Turkish names.

BUT, when you see the names of Greeks in Istanbul or Izmir, you can NEVER find a local Greek man with a Turkish name throughout history. For example, can you imagine a Phanariot from Istanbul with a Turkish name, lol?


The ones who had Turkish names was either christian Turks or the mix of Turks and Greeks who lived around central Anatolia and Blacksea or rural sides of Aegean Anatolia. They were probably christian Turks tough cuz when you analyze the social environment in Ottoman Empire, it`s hard to believe a Greek speaking person from Izmir or Istanbul would marry with a Turkish speaking christian from rural places cuz most of Greeks from Izmir and Istanbul was very rich people who deals with trading businesses or artisans. The mix of Greeks and Turks is pretty much only possible at Blacksea, so-called "Pontian Greeks" cuz we can see many evidences of Greek-Turkish marriages for there. I am sure most of Pontian people in Greece have relatives in Turkey and vice versa.

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Old 09-26-2010, 10:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Antiochian Greeks

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochian_Greeks

Antiochian Greeks are the members of the Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch who have resided in the territory of contemporary Turkish province of Hatay, but many of these members are ethnic Assyrians/Syriacs, who before spoke Syriac and celebrate the Liturgie in Old-Syriac. They are now primarily speakers of Levantine Arabic, but also of Greek and Turkish.

This is another laughable fallacy. These people are christian Arabs who had no relation with Greeks or Greek language except being adherent to Istanbul patriarchy in Ottoman Empire era. Their situation was just like the Urums.
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Old 09-26-2010, 10:51 AM   #10
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onur, wiki is not credible bratko
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