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Old 06-28-2021, 08:16 PM   #481
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Old 06-28-2021, 09:20 PM   #482
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Old 01-12-2022, 11:21 AM   #483
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I have asked the following questions earlier, but posting them again. If Soldier of Macedon or anybody else might have any interest in the topic feel free to provide input.

1) Were Mardaites assimilated? Could it be possible that Mardaites ARE the later Albanians? If these are/were two separate ethnic groups, one is (at the minimum) forced to consider the possibility that the Mardaites of Epirus, Peloponnese, Aetolia, Theme of Dyrrhachium were assimilated by the Albanians.

2) Albanians, when they are first mentioned/and appear in the Balkans, they are described as non-Orthodox Christians. The Mardaites, at the time of their first mention and transplantation, were also non-Orthodox Christians. Is this a mere coincidence?

3) What is incorrect in the above questions/line of reasoning?


And now, a "rant".

In terms of validity of assimilation or migration processes, there are many examples to consider. Did you know that most now believe the Basques are a nation/ethnic group of southwestern Gaul (that is, France) that migrated/were pushed into their present location sometime in the 'post-Roman' centuries, most likely during the Visigothic period?

In short what follows are R. L. Trask's findings and arguments:
https://books.google.ca/books/about/...AJ&redir_esc=y

- The fragmentary remains of the ancient Aquitanian language of southwestern Gaul are so transparently Basque that we may safely regard Aquitanian as an ancestral form of Basque.

- There are very many place names in the Spanish Basque Country which are certainly not of Basque origin and which in many cases appear to be Indo-European. This is further evidence that much of the modern Basque Country was not Basque-speaking, or at least not predominantly Basque-speaking, in the Roman era.

- Echenique sees Basque as one of several languages spoken side by side in the ancient Basque Country, and suggests that bilingualism may have been common. Nevertheless, most specialists are satisfied that the Basque language was introduced into much of the Basque Country in post-Roman times, most likely during the Visigothic period. Consequently, the traditional view that Basque is a language of Spain which has extended itself to the north of the Pyrenees has had to be revised: we now see Basque as a language of Gaul which has spread south and west.


Why do I bring this up as a comparison? To illustrate perhaps that Basques did not require military domination, religion, state, institutions, alphabet/language, in order to migrate and impose themselves and their language in the Spanish Basque Country. Perhaps they assimilated "others", while "others" yet may have fled. The "causes" and "effects" are not always consistent. What's plainly obvious is that Basque as a language was as a language of Gaul which has spread south and west. Using the principle of analogy, it is not unlikely to argue that Albanian as a language has spread into the current territories from elsewhere (be it "elsewhere" in the Balkans or "outside" of Balkans, i.e. Mardaites). In summary, even the "Ancient" Basques originated from somewhere else where they currently live.

Interestingly, and as mentioned above - the fragmentary remains of the ancient Aquitanian language of southwestern Gaul are seemingly transparently Basque, that an "amateur" can supposedly make the connection. The (sad) reality is that we have nothing of the sort for Illyrian (or Mardaite, Albanian, or "Vlach"* for that matter). The amount of fragmentary remains of Aquitanian is much greater than what we have for Illlyrian. As a result, the linguistic theories that link Illyrian to Albanian can be questioned, and are more linguistic "speculations" which are based on scant amount of names/toponyms/words of origins that have "parallels" in different languages. My argument regarding the Mardaite origins does not rest on linguistics, ethnic theories or other speculations, but based on the primary textual sources that tell us the Mardaites were transplanted to the Balkans in seemingly significant numbers. In the end, we should at least explore and ask questions what happened to Mardaites.


* - "Vlach" is an exception here because it is a clear evolution of earlier Latin/Romanic dialects. We do not know how/when the linguistic evolution/transition happened. The oldest extant document written in Romanian/Vlach is from 1521 (it was written using the Cyrillic alphabet).
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Old 01-13-2022, 05:18 PM   #484
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Hey Carlin, my apologies for my total ignorance on the subject - I have never really bothered to research any of this before but I'm really interested to know how close is the Vlach language to the Albanian language? I've been meaning to ask you this for a while now. All I know so far is that both languages are Latin based or heavily influenced by Latin. Can you, for example, understand some or most of Albanian?
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Old 01-15-2022, 10:22 AM   #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karposh View Post
Hey Carlin, my apologies for my total ignorance on the subject - I have never really bothered to research any of this before but I'm really interested to know how close is the Vlach language to the Albanian language? I've been meaning to ask you this for a while now. All I know so far is that both languages are Latin based or heavily influenced by Latin. Can you, for example, understand some or most of Albanian?
I don't understand or know Albanian. My knowledge of Vlach is rather basic. They are two totally different languages, even though Albanian has some Latin elements. In the past, many of my (recent) ancestors knew Albanian fluently but that's because they lived in close proximity with Albanians (they also knew Macedonian), or lived in what would later become Albania proper (around Moscopole and Korca regions).

(For example, Romanians could not really understand Albanian.)
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Old 01-16-2022, 06:03 AM   #486
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Originally Posted by Carlin View Post
I don't understand or know Albanian. My knowledge of Vlach is rather basic. They are two totally different languages, even though Albanian has some Latin elements. In the past, many of my (recent) ancestors knew Albanian fluently but that's because they lived in close proximity with Albanians (they also knew Macedonian), or lived in what would later become Albania proper (around Moscopole and Korca regions).

(For example, Romanians could not really understand Albanian.)
Thanks Carlin, I appreciate that. I just finished going through the first 5 pages of this thread and I think I have a better insight into the Albanian language now. I think I was just being lazy when I asked you if Vlach and Albanian are similar. Obviously, Albanian has a shit load of Latin loan words (as well as many Slavonic and other loan words) but it looks like the syntax and morphology of the language is unique in Europe and cannot be identified with any other language. So, I guess it would be safe to say that, although Vlach and Albanian have many Latin-based words in their respective vocabularies, they are completely different languages.
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Old 01-17-2022, 12:45 AM   #487
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Originally Posted by Karposh View Post
Thanks Carlin, I appreciate that. I just finished going through the first 5 pages of this thread and I think I have a better insight into the Albanian language now. I think I was just being lazy when I asked you if Vlach and Albanian are similar. Obviously, Albanian has a shit load of Latin loan words (as well as many Slavonic and other loan words) but it looks like the syntax and morphology of the language is unique in Europe and cannot be identified with any other language. So, I guess it would be safe to say that, although Vlach and Albanian have many Latin-based words in their respective vocabularies, they are completely different languages.
No prob Karposh. Yes, they are two completely separate languages. As you said, it has many Slavonic borrowings as well.


I just happened to come across this article. It is in Serbian, but it has a summary in English. It is written by Serbian historian Predrag Komatina.

URL:
https://www.academia.edu/66697648/O_...he_Middle_Ages

Summary:

"The paper discusses the issue of the Albanian ethnonym in the Middle Ages, starting from the fact that today they use the ethnonym Shqipėtar for themselves and that other peoples know them as Albanians. It first points out the possibility that the former name was in use among the Albanians already in the 14th century, and then discusses the use of the ethnonym Albanians in the historical sources from the 11th to the 14th century. Since it originated from the geographical term Arbanum and was conditioned by it, the question arises оf how the ancestors of the Albanians were called before they came to Arbanum. Finally, the paper suggests a possible connection between them and the Vlach groups in the south of the Balkan Peninsula."


Thanks to google translate we can obtain (relatively) accurate translations. I don't want to take anything out of the context but here are some pieces from the text.

Quote:
Regarding the term "Shqipėtar" in names "don Petro Scapuder de Drivasto" (1370), "presbyter Petrus Andreas de Drivasto Arbanensis"(1371), "presbytero Petro Schipudar de Drivasto" from Drivastum:

Milan Šufflay presented and Bardilj Demiraj undoubtedly strengthened the presumption that it is related to the ethnonym by which the given family name was identified in the areas where non-Albanian population prevailed. The family, as the name implies, is from Drivastum, whose inhabitants were still proud of their Romance (Roman) origins even at the beginning of the Ottoman rule in the 15th century.
Quote:
It is interesting that the medieval Slavic census mentions "Arbanasi" and "Hunavi" as different peoples.
Quote:
Along with Pilot and the southern Adriatic cities of the medieval Serbian coast, Kroja, i.e. Arbanon, Hunavia and Stefanijaka belonged to the famous culture of "Komani-Kroja", which developed in the period between the 7th and 9th centuries in the area between Shkodra, Prizren, Ohrid and Vlora and whose bearers belonged to the Romance population of Christian and urban culture.

According to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, the inhabitants of the Dyrrhachion theme to which the area in the thematic system belonged in the middle of the 10th century were Romans as well as those who inhabited Dalmatian cities.

It could therefore be assumed that the non-Albanian inhabitants of Hunavia, Stefanijaka and Pilot mentioned by sources from the beginning of the 14th century were descendants of that Roman population, which previously inhabited Arbanon, from where it eventually merged with the pastoral Arbanasi.
Quote:
Since, according to Constantine Porphyrogenitus, the inhabitants of the Dyrrhachion theme were Romans in the middle of the 10th century, the appearance of the ancestors of ethnic Arbanasi in Arbanon occurred between the middle of the 10th century and their first mention in historical sources related to events from 1079-1081. years. It is interesting that Anna Komnene in the description of the events from 1081 uses the expression "those who are called Arbanasi" (τῶν καλουμένων Ἀρβανιτῶν), which means that, as E. Vranousi warned they were not well known under that name at that time.
Quote:
However, since the Vlach population in medieval Serbia, which is usually considered autochthonous in science, actually came from Vlach groups from the Byzantine territories in the south, from where it spread to Serbian lands from the 12th century, it is clear that the origin of this phenomenon should be sought precisely in the area of ​​the medieval Greek lands. On the other hand, in the onomastics of the Arbanasi in Arbanon, Vlach and to a significant extent, Slavic names were also represented, which were recorded among the Vlachs in Greece in the middle of the 11th century. In addition to autochthonous, Vlach and Slavic linguistic elements, a significant place in medieval Albanian onomastics also belonged to Greek.
End of the article

Quote:
Albanian linguistic elements in the onomastics of the Vlach populations in Serbian and, presumably, Greek lands, the fact that the onomastics of Arbanasi in Arbanon largely coincided with the nomenclature of Vlach groups throughout the Balkan Peninsula, a significant share of Greek linguistic material in Albanian onomastics, with noticeable influence of the Greek language in Albanian, suggesting that the further origin of the Albanian people and their habitats before coming to Arbanon should, presumably, be sought among the Vlach groups that appeared in the Greek lands in the south of the Balkan Peninsula in the early tenth century.

Last edited by Carlin; 01-17-2022 at 12:50 AM.
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