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Old 11-19-2012, 06:52 PM   #11
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As for Romm's position here it is from a previous work;








Here's more from Ghost on the throne;



page 182


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Old 11-19-2012, 06:54 PM   #12
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Mistracona what do you think todays greek have in common with the ancient race of Hellenes?
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:12 PM   #13
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For the sake of argument, we can say that the ancient Macedonians were originally Chinese Jews who had no connection to the ancient Greeks. They were a different people. The point is not who the ancient Macedonians were, but what they did. The Macedonians established the Greek language and its culture in the eastern Mediterranean. This confirmation and entrenchment of the Greek language and culture in the eastern Med secured the preservation and prolongation of both. Without Alexander, the Greek language and culture would have disappeared after the failed city states and crumbled under Imperial Rome. The Greek language and culture survived and dominated the Roman Empire of the east. Its dominance of that empire permitted the continuation of the Greek language through the Ottoman centuries and, for better or worse, led to the creation of the Greek-speaking state in the 19th century. This would not have been possible without the Greek-speaking, Greek cultured macedonian Empire. Alexander was the keystone of the long arch of the Greek-speaking people. It is the reason that a few years ago, the Greeks, with so many other choices, chose Alexander as "the greatest Greek" in a national poll. They chose their gratitude to this Chinese Jew who helped them so much, by making him an honorary Greek.

Non-Macedonian Greeks followed Alexander in his initial march east but began to see the march as pointless and withdrew. Eventually, even Alexander's own general's turned against him, most probably poisoned him and divided up his empire. Their maintenance of the Greek language and culture in Alexandria made that city the epicentre of the Greek-speaking world after Athens had collapsed and before that epicentre moved to Constantinopole.

Modern Greece and the history of the Greek-speaking people are two entirely different things. The modern Greek state was established on the same basis that all nation-states were. It is a cultural assimilation of a variety of ethnic backgrounds. It is based, as all modern states are, on a common misconception. It is, like all modern states, an artificial construct. In the words of Professor Anderson, these states are "imagined communities". Ancient Greece was never a state. It was a linguistic, cultural and to some extent geographic definition. No knowledgable person would speak of an ethnic or "blood" connection between the modern and ancient Greek speakers. To answer your question, what connects the modern and ancient "Greeks" is the Greek language itself, unbroken and continuous since the first Mycaenians descended into the peninsula in the 17th century B.C, the Greek language Greek has, like all living language, changed, evolved, morphed but remained the same root language through some 4 thousand years. A language contains everything, history, culture, emotion, triumphs and defeats. The blood, sweat, and tears of those whose mother tongue it is.

One more thing connects the modern Greeks to the ancient world. The ancient Greeks were full of vices: perversion, jealousy, treachery, cowardice, duplicity and corruption to name a few. The modern Greeks share all the same qualities.

In "Macedonia Redux", Borza says that the modern Macedonians of the Balkan state, which he supports, have no connection to the ancient world.

It is their mother tongue, and all the vibrant wealth it contains, that is the continuity of the Greek-speaking people, composed of various ethnicities through the ages.

What is it that connects the Slavic-speaking people of the southern Balkans to that world? Besides the "Rosetta Stone" I mean.

P.S. Do notice that I refer to the Greek-speaking people as those whose "mother tongue" the language is and not those who had it as a lingua franca at various points in history.
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:41 PM   #14
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Indeed, it was the Greek-speaking Macedonians that made Greek the lingua franca in North Africa and the Middle east through their empire. The Macedonians established the Greek language and culture in many of the urban centres of the eastern Med giving rise to the so-called "Hellenistic" period. By that time, the isolated Greek colonies of southern Europe, of what is today southern France and Italy, had vanished. There were no Greek colonies in Egypt before Alexandria, under the Macedonians, became an epicentre of the Greek-speaking world. A lingua franca is established through empire and authority which the Macedonians exercised in the cities of the eastern Med.

Another thing, incidentally, that connects the modern Greeks to the Greek-speaking (mother tongue) world of antiquity is that there have always been mother-tongue Greek speakers in that southernmost peninsula known as "Greece" in the ancient world though they became a waxing and waning minority through the migrations and conquests of other peoples including Albanians, Vlachs, Slavs, Turks and others.

In your energetic underlining above, there is no shred of evidence, not one, that a "Macedonian" language different from Greek existed. There are only naked statements, as naked as a new-born babe without the slightest covering of fact or proof or evidence. The evidence of a Greek speaking ancient Macedonian people is overwhelming: in ubiquitous names and place names, in inscriptions, in texts, in the open and free communication between Macedonians and other Greek-speaking people. It is somewhat embarrassing to have to address such an elementary and obvious point.

Looking forward to continuing a fascinating and spirited exchange.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:07 AM   #15
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Mistracona
So what language did Alexander speak in the Greek congress/parliament that the Greeks could not understand?
I'm quite sure you have references to his speech.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:31 AM   #16
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I'm sorry, makedoche. I don't understand your question. My point is the opposite of what you say, that there was complete linguistic understanding between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greek-speaking peoples. Could you please clarify.

With respect to the pages reproduced out of context by TrueMacedonian, there are two things to consider: One is that there is disagreement in every aspect of human discourse. Medical doctors, linguists, mathematicians, physicists and even plumbers disagree, so that historians also disagree on certain things is perfectly normal. Second is that ancient writers are not irrefutable. Because a source is ancient does not mean that it is absolutely correct. Herodotus, "The father of history" wrote a lot of absurd things in his books. He is "the father of history" because of his methodology not because of his accuracy. The Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote some trenchant things about human nature and political structures, but all his scientific observations, all of them without exception, were wrong and sometimes silly. What we consider in every field is a compilation of the weight of evidence. It is as true in the understanding of history as it is in everything else.

In the underlined passage reproduced by TrueMacedonian of the book Alexander the Great, Romm says, the Macedonians and Greeks " were separate and distinct" yet in his other book, Romm says they were "kindred." Which is it? Not, of course, that that is at all remotely the issue. Again, Romm uses the word "ethnic" which had a different meaning in the ancient world of city states than it does today. Unfortunately, i don't have the time to address every underlined passage but I hope I have made my point with greater or lesser success.
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Old 11-20-2012, 01:50 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mistracona View Post
I'm sorry, makedoche. I don't understand your question. My point is the opposite of what you say, that there was complete linguistic understanding between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greek-speaking peoples. Could you please clarify.
The question in simlfied format is " what laguage did Alexander the Great speak in an adress to the Greek council/congress, that the Greeks did not understand", fairly simple if you know your history.
With respect to the pages reproduced out of context by TrueMacedonian, there are two things to consider: One is that there is disagreement in every aspect of human discourse. Medical doctors, linguists, mathematicians, physicists and even plumbers disagree, so that historians also disagree on certain things is perfectly normal. Second is that ancient writers are not irrefutable. Because a source is ancient does not mean that it is absolutely correct. Herodotus, "The father of history" wrote a lot of absurd things in his books. He is "the father of history" because of his methodology not because of his accuracy. So it is quite likely heredotus wrote in a favourable manner towards greeks and he may well have provided distorted opinions/research?
The Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote some trenchant things about human nature and political structures, but all his scientific observations, all of them without exception, were wrong and sometimes silly. What we consider in every field is a compilation of the weight of evidence. It is as true in the understanding of history as it is in everything else.
The Macedonian philosopher Aristotle, spoke both languages I refer to.

In the underlined passage reproduced by TrueMacedonian of the book Alexander the Great, Romm says, the Macedonians and Greeks " were separate and distinct" yet in his other book, Romm says they were "kindred." You keep leaving out the "foreign" part of the statement, conveniently or foolishly - I know what I think.
Which is it? Not, of course, that that is at all remotely the issue. Again, Romm uses the word "ethnic" which had a different meaning in the ancient world of city states than it does today. Unfortunately, i don't have the time to address every underlined passage but I hope I have made my point with greater or lesser success.
No - exactly what is your point?
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Old 11-20-2012, 02:43 AM   #18
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1) I do not know of any address that Alexander made to any Greek "congress" (sic) that the Greeks "did not understand." Please describe it to me.

2.) My example of Herodotus is to show that ancient text can be wrong.

3.) Could you please offer any text or any evidence to show that Aristotle spoke a language other than Greek or that a Macedonian language separate from Greek even existed much less was used. If, for the sake of argument, such a language did exist, what is its connection to modern Macedonian which belongs to the Slavic family of languages (Cited University of Toronto and many others). Thank you.

4) Again, lets assume for the sake of argument that Romm actually meant "foreign race" in the contemporary sense (although in the contemporary sense the Greeks, Macedonians, Romans etc were not a separate "race." They were all caucasians). We are still left with the dilemma that Romm calls the two people a "foreign race" and a "kindred people." They are oxymorons. Both cannnot be correct. Which is it?

Lastly, in the ancient Greek world, the political units were city-states, not nations. "Foreign" (Xenos) could mean a citizen from another city state as well as someone from a different culture. The Greeks divided themselves into separate "races," Dorians, ionians, Achaeans and Aeoleans. each was a "foreign" race or tribe or clan to the other. Romm is a human being writing in this case a book of fiction. He is using words as a fiction writer, sometimes with more accuracy and care than other times.

My point is that the ancient Macedonians were a (mother tongue) Greek-speaking people who belonged to the ancient Greek-speaking world (not the lingua franca world of the Hellenistic age which resulted from Macedonian conquest) and whose history, culture and language were indivisible from the rest of the Greek-speaking world made up of the separate city-states of Sparta, Athens, Thebes and others. The evidence for this fact is abundant. Its contradiction is non-existent to my knowledge, but I am willing to be corrected if you have the evidence - evidence and not just opinion. Is there a text or a body of words from this mysterious non-Greek ancient macedonian language?
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:11 AM   #19
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Mistracona, you sound like some of the internet warriors of the late 1990's. Perhaps you have missed a great deal.

But I like the fact you cannot identify a Greek nation in ancient times. I can almost identify a Greek nation in modern times so it is nice to see some development on that front. I suggest you do a little more reading here before you start to sound really old.
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Old 11-20-2012, 03:18 AM   #20
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The ancient Macedonians, we have concluded for the sake of argument, were a people of Chinese-Jewish origin entirely separate from the Greeks. However, using the "Rosetta Stone" method of language learning, the ancient Macedonians mastered the Greek language and absorbed Greek culture totally. By the middle of the 6th Cent B.C. (or BCE if one prefers) the ancient Macedonians were so assimilated into the Greek world that they participated in the ancient Olympic games, the games that were sacred to the ancient Greeks and in which only Greeks could take part.
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