Ventilator

[indigen]

Originally Posted by Frank

There still remains a lack of Knowledge that the 8 ray Macedonian Sun burst is invented when is not.

I think your view is mere wishful thinking and not what really happened. It has also been clearly stated by its creators that it has no ethnic, cultural or historic significance for Macedonians. in fact, there was info published back in 1995 (Today Denes paper, Australia) linking it to an exact (or close) replica of a Soviet Red Army Flag of WWII era.

The following is a valid response (taken from kajgana forum):

Neznam kako da gi okvalifikuvam vakvite komentari:
Tesenje,
Opravduvanje,
Samozalazuvanje ili nesto cetvrto...

Varijanta na kamenite crtezi moze da bide samo togas koga tie ke bile zemeni vo predvid koga se kreiralo znameto , a ne koga posle 10 godini na neko mu teknalo "E vidi naseto zname e slicno na crtezite ..."
Koga go menuvaa znameto SDSM ne se spomnuvaa ni kameni ni bakraci, tuku se izmisli nesto sto ama bas na nikoj vo drzavata ne mu znacese nesto, nitu pak imase nekakva simbolika...Tuku ete taka kolku da ima nesto i da lici kolku tolku na sonce...

But I understand being forced to change your Country's adopted Flag is unacceptable and not to be forgotten by EVERYONE.

It CLEARLY represents CAPITULATION - NO IFS AND NO BUTS!
Thus it IS a symbol of shame and defeat - poraz and in no way can it arouse any pride in sane and thinking Macedonians, IMO!

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Slavko Mangovski
Date: 1995/09/09
Subject: Rezolucija


UNITED MACEDONIANS,
P.O. Box 3641,
Postal Station M.I.P, Markham,
Ont, L3R 6G9

REZOLUCIJA

Donesena na 7.9.1995 g. na prosireniot sostanok na Organizacijata Obedineti Makedonci i site makedonski crkveni opshtini, selski spomagatelni drushtva i poedinci koi ziveat i rabotat vo Kanada i Amerika odrzan vo prostoriite na MPC Sv. Kliment Ohridski vo Toronto a vo vrska so prevzemenite cekori na Vladata i Pretsedatelot na Republika Makedonija za promena na znameto i ustavot na drzavata Republika Makedonija vo namerno predizvikan spor so Grcija a prema informaciite i izjavata na na ministerot za nadvoresni raboti Stevo Crvenkovski, Makedonskata komuna vo Toronto na sostanokot odluci:

1. I pokraj dolgovremenoto ponudeno dogovaranje od strana na Republika Makedonija za nakaradnite baranja na Grcija za promena na imeto na Republika Makedonija so nekoi opisni dodavki resitelno se sprotivstavuvame na bilo kakvi razgovori za nekakva promena na istoriskoto ime MAKEDONIJA.

2. Znameto na Republika Makedonija, sesnaesetzracnoto Sonce go pretstavuva istoriskoto minato pod koe zname makedonija rastela, se razvivala, se sirela i pobeduvala a vo posledno vreme obnoveno po legalen pat so zakonska procedura vo Makedonskiot Parlament barame da ostane i da ne se menuva bidejki toa e neprocenlivo nasledstvo i sovremen Makedonski nacionalen simbol.

3. Razgovorot okolu promena na ustavot na Drzavata pretstavuva nevidena navreda od tugja strana, mesanje vo vnatresnite raboti na R. Makedonija i gubenje na pravoto na matichnata drzava da se grizi za pravata na Makedoncite od okupiranite delovi na Makedonija e nacionalna navreda i nevideno predavstvo na sopstveniot narod.

Isprakjame delegacija vo R. Makedonija koja ke mu ja predade Rezolucijata na Pretsedatelot na R. Makedonija Kiro Gligorov.
Delegacijata ke ja predvodi pretsedatelot na Organizacijata Obedineti Makedonci g. Vlade Grozdanovski.

Ovaa Rezolucija e ispratena do:
Pretsedatelot Kiro Gligorov;
Pretsedatelot na Sobranieto Stojan Andov;
Pretsedatelot na Vladata Branko Crvenkovski;
Do liderite na opozicionite partii;
Do sredstvata za javni informacii;
Do site Makedonski asocijacii vo Amerika, Kanada, Evropa i Avstralija.

Toronto, 7.9.1995 g.
Pretsedatel na OOM
Vlade Grozdanovski

http://groups.google.com.au/group/bi...a85245da?hl=en

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Slavko Mangovski
Date: 1995/09/08
Subject: Interests or who gets what

The new Graeco-Macedonian (actually Graeco-"fyromian") "friendship" treaty
merits thorough analysys because of its monumental significance for the
Macedonian nation. The treaty threatens a definite split among the
Macedonians themselves so we have to see
who gets what from it and whose interests are best served.

The EU
Benefits:
Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!"
Less worries for the Balkans.
No need to prosecute Greece because of the embargo and therefore liberation
from a major embaressement.
Losses: none.

USA
Benefits:
Clear benefit and a loud "sigh!
Less worries for the Balkans.
Great satisfaction for the Greek lobby and therefore a lot of votes for Clinton.
Losses: none.

GREECE
Major benefit.
Almost maximum demands met.
Sense of accomplishment and new national pride.
Clear road for placing the Macedonian Sun on it's flag and becoming the
legitimate heir of ancient Macedonia and everything Macedonian.
With it's identity destroyed the Macedonian minority is no longer a problem.
The name issue to be discussed "in the future" but excellent chances of
winning again.
Possibility to re-introduce the embargo at any time to make it's argument
more convincing.
Absolute vindication of its stands in front of the international public.
Economic access to MK's territory.
Revival of the Northern Greece economy.
Losses: none.

MK
Benefits:
Possibility to go on vacation and shopping to Greece but without using the
passport and first applying for visa (will we have again the famous lines
in front of the Greek consulate in Skopje with people spending the night in
order to be among the first to
apply?)
Posibility of the exporters to export through Solun therefore saving money.
Gaining access to various international bodies and organizations under the
name FYROM (somebody will have to tell us what the benefits will be).
Appearance of Greek products in our shops.
Obtaining loans from foreign countries and organizations (which will have
to be repaid with interest) with wide misuse by the somewhat corrupt
government.
Economic developement (similar to Bulgaria and Albania which *DO* have
access to the Solun port).

Losses:
Loss of our identity.
Without ancient Macedonian heritage automatic acquring of the status of
"Slavs from Macedonia" or Slavomacedonians, as presently in Australia.
Global introduction of the "Australian solution" and international pressure
on Greece to yield and accept the derivative of the name "Macedonia" i.e.
"Slavomacedonia."
Definite split among the Macedonians and start of ferocious infighting
further weakening the nation.
Various kinds of bugaromans, serbomans, greacomans, yugomans etc. emboldened
by the new developements.

I invite others to contribute to the list so that we can make a complete
analysys. We are all intelligent and rational people and should act in our
best interests otherwise we risk being called idiots.

I wrote the above in English in the hope of reaching a larger number of
Macedonians.

Slavko
http://groups.google.com.au/group/bi...bd9ac3fa?hl=en

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Chris Angelkov
Date: 1995/09/08
Subject: MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION IN NEGOTIATIONS

Dear Fellow Macedonians and Friends,

I have been shocked by the recent unexpected developments in the dispute
between Macedonia and Greece. It would appear that the Government of the
Republic of Macedonia is seriously compromising Macedonia's position by
making monumental concessions for very little in return. After all, this
agreement does not include Greece's acceptance of the name "Republic of
Macedonia" which will remain unresolved. When one considers that this whole
dispute centres upon this name then it is ludicrous to suggest that this
impending agreement is of any use or longevity.

Macedonia is about to make the very humiliating and neglectful concessions of:

(1) changing its flag to remove the Ancient Sun of Alexander the Great and
(2) changing its constitution to remove any reference to the Republic of
Macedonia' responsibilty to fellow Macedonians in Neighbouring countries
and abroad.

What is Macedonia going to receive in return?
(1) The lifting of an illegal economic blockade by Greece against Macedonia.
(2) Greece's lifting of its veto against the entry of Macedonia into
various European and international institutions.
(3) The promise of financial assistance from the European Union and
Germany in particular.

For all intents and purposes Greece's blockade against Macedonia has been a
resounding success. It has managed to change our flag, get assurances from
the Macedonian Government that it will abandon any responsibilty towards
Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia and has still stopped us from being
universally recognized under our correct name of "Republic of Macedonia".

I can only feel shame and sorrow that the Republic of Macedonia has not been
able to negotiate a compromise from which we can say that something has been
conceded but something even more significant has been gained. In fact
nearly everything has been conceded for nothing in return! And what is left
in the Macedonian cupboard to negotiate with when the name issue comes up
for resolution in the future? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING!

It is about time that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia took a
long hard look at itself and admitted that it does not have the personell to
negotiate at the level required in international fora. For too long we have
been naive and reluctant to show any independent line of thought, waiting
on other countries and international organizations to assist us or to
dictate to us (a la U.S.A.). The one outstanding and world renouned
negotiator that we do have, Dr Vasil Tupurkovski, has been sidelined. Is
the RoM so well endowed with master negotiators that Tupurkovski's skills
and experience is not needed?

Fellow Macedonians, I can only hope that the deal which has been struck
contains a lot more positive aspects for Macedonia than we currently know
about but I am not confident that this is the case. I know that from the
comfort of Australia, Canada and the U.S.A. it is easy to be critical and
that we do not fully appreciate the hardship and instability that our people
in RoM are experiencing from the Greek and U.N. imposed Yugoslav Blockades
and that the Government of the Republic of Macedonia finds itself in a very
difficult situation. However, I am afraid that our naivety and tactical
errors in negotiation will haunt us for a long time to come.

Chris Angelkov
Perth
Western Australia

http://groups.google.com.au/group/bi...b545ac53?hl=en

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Lubi Uzunovski <[email protected]>
Date: 1995/09/07
Subject: REZILOK

Somebody help me out here. We get a report from the Macedonian
Foreign Office indicating that an agreement has been reached between
Macedonia and greece. Apparently there are no winners or losers and
the opposition parties have been asked to refrain from spreading
misinformation.

Hello, good morning, earth calling gligorov!

Mr. gligorov, Mr. tsrvenkovski and Mr. gaber are the ones who are
causing this misinformation to be spread. If an agreement has
been concluded with greece, (and obviously one has) then why is it
that the president of the Republic has not yet made a statement to
the citizens? Is he afraid? He should be. It is my meagre
understanding that in a democracy the tail does not wag the dog.
Gligorov must do as the citizens mandate him to, and that does not
include negotiating away our identity.

No one from gligorov's inner sanctum has come out to deny that
the flag has not been sold to the greeks. But who's flag is it?
It's not the personal property of gligorov, nor tsrvenkovski
nor any of the puppets at the Macedonian foreign office. What
will they sell next? After all, the precedent for selling the
Macedonian state symbols has now been set, only the quantity
is left to be regulated. This is the reward given to greece by
gligorov and his incompetent negotiating team.

My position is simple. Gligorov and his puppets no longer have
any shred of credibility. When the Macedonian flag is handed over
to the greeks, I want gligorov's head to be be wrapped inside it,
still bleeding. As for the amendments to the Macedonian constitution.
Ke se prerodi gligorov pred nie dai ostaime nashite vo grtsia. I am
of the opinion that he has deviated too far from the mandate given to
him and is now causing confusion and disunity amongst the Macedonian
people. If he couldn't cut the mustard, he should have quit. He is
truly a man of no class. I strongly believe he should removed upon
the signing of this "deal".

Can this act be seen as anything but High Treason. Certainly not by
the eyes inside of my head. I wonder if John Major would have sold
the Union Jack to the greeks. What country in the world would sell
their flag? Am I stretching the envelope. Ovoi choak treba da e
k'lnat. Kao ne mue stram? Mene mie stram za neo, ovie se detinski
raboti. Marifeto e Makedonskio identitet da ne se zagubi. Pa ovoi,
bash toa go prodava? It's hypocritical of the foreign office to
imply that there are no winners and no losers given that the souvlaki
sticks are still sticking out of their asses. Macedonia is big
enough to fit over two million people, but its obviously not large
enough for gligorov's ego. Do you think he has our new name picked
already? Perhaps it will be gligorovia, and we can use his underwear
as our flag.

Lubi

http://groups.google.com.au/group/bi...a1696c07?hl=en

newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Josif Grezlovski
Date: 1995/09/09
Subject: Re: MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION IN NEGOTIATIONS


:: Mr. Angelkov!
:: Mi se svide, bendisa tvojot post; no samo edna malka zamerka ke bide
:: potrebna: Topurkovski ke go smeneshe nasheto ime mnogu oddavna, beshe
:: spremen da gi zadovoli svoite stranski kolegi ushte vo Viena.
:: Shto se odnesuva do deneshnata "stramota" ili kako Lubi ja nareche
:: "rezilak" jas sum totalno razocharan od se shto gledam. Se si imav edna
:: budalska idea deka taka-vaka na kraj ke si zadrzhime i zname a i ime.
:: Od druga strana neshto mi go mateshe mozokot: Odime da pregovarame
:: za shto? Nie ne baravme neshto od nekogo? Nie otidovme da dajme onolku
:: kolku ke ni pobaraat. Nie ispadnavme edni obichni KRAVI. Da bevme
:: voloi, ajde de, ke se poturkavme malku, a sega sme obichna krava,
:: obichna OVCA za sekoj da ne strizhi. Osekjam edna golema duhovna praznina.
:: Denes, dojde den, da jas se chuvstvuvam porazen: od edni skapani Grci.
:: Cel zivot ne porazuvaat, ni go "fakjaat patot", ni prechat, ne drzat dolu,
:: ne sramat, pleme mu nivno, a nashite od "Slavo Makedonija" ke se pretepaat
:: za koj da se spushti vo Grcija na "odmor", za koga ke se vratat nazad
:: da se gordeat so svojata Grchka vakancija. Za gabe si go jadime rizikot
:: ovde. Tie od tamu ni se smeat deka sme bile "Usijani glavi".
:: Ochekuvajte da se vikame neshto sosema drugo vo najbliska idnina.
:: Najmnogu shto mi e maka e toa shto ke go gledam gnevot na niskite i
:: crni grci....
:: Josif


Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Luben Todorouski
Date: 1995/09/15
Subject: Re: MAYBE THE GREEKS HAVE A POINT ....

> On Tue, 12 Sep 1995, M Petkovski wrote:

> > > Slavko:
> > > Are those passions weakened because of the $100.00 or because Govt.
> > > discouragement of nationalism? It doesn't seem that Bulgaria and/or
> > > Albania standard is much highre yet I don't see THEM giving up their flag.

> > Well, when nothing works in a country, the most obvious choice for the
> > government - to distract the attention to the real problems - is to
> > blame someone else, i.e. to start a nationalist campaign. That is
> > exactly what happened in the ex-Yu, and what is probably happening
> > in Bulgaria, Albania, Greece nowadays. The fact that our government
> > hasn't played that card yet is one of the few good points (if not
> > the only one) about them.

> That is a nice theory, Mihail, yet we have to look at the results of such
> policies: all the nationalsitic countries like Slovenia (first
> independent, on it's way to become Eu member, almost solved its problems
> with Italy); Croatia (independent, great future, on its way to solve
> disputes with Serbia); Serbia (on its way to get half of Bosnia); Greece
> (clear winner as it officially becomes a Greaco-Macedonian state);
> Bulgaria and Albania (clear nationalists and moving forward) and
> non-nationalistic Macedonia (actually Fyrom, with no identity, on its way to
> become kind of Bosnia). Clear results from the "wise" policies of
> Gligorov and Co.

Few equations:

modern state = nation

nationalism - the basic ideology of the nation's existance.

NO nationalism = NO Nation = NO State = nameless teritory with

no indentity and no future (example: FYRM).

Zaboravete sto imate uceno na casovite po Marksizam.

Procitajte nekoi dr. definicii na Nacionalizmot. Na primer nesto
za Garibaldi, prviot opsto poznat Nacionalista ...

Ako sakas da unistis zemja togas unisti i go Nacionalniot Indentitet.

(Napisano na Makedonski bidejki e nameneto voglavno na tie
sto se imaat educirano so 4 casovi na marksizam nedelno)

[Risto the Great]

Some excellent dialogue from our recent history.

[indigen]

Newsgroups: bit.listserv.makedon
From: Slavko Mangovski
Date: 1995/10/09
Subject: Declaration

Sunday, October 1, 1995
United Nations Plaza, New York City

We, the Macedonians, having organized this peaceful rally today, to protest the ignominious agreement signed on September 13, 1995, by the foreign ministers of the Republic of Macedonia, on one hand, and Greece, on the other and sponsored by the UN, whereby our human rights, as people, and our identity, integrity and dignity are most seriously compromised and flouted, issue the following

DECLARATION

• With the genuine feeling of pride, which is present in the collective consciousness and in the genes of all Macedonians concerning our ethnogenesis from ancient times to the present;

• With a sense of belonging to a distinct European people known as Macedonians, conscious and proud of our past, our national name and identity, our cultural heritage, our religion, our customs, our traditions, our language, our folklore and rites and rituals;

• With the determination to win for ourselves a place of respect, honor and dignity among the families of mankind;

• With an understanding that all people are created equal by God;

• We, the Macedonians, descendants of the ancient Macedonian kings Amyntas and Perdikka, Philip and Alexander; followers of the early Christian teachings of the Holy Apostle Paul; followers of the medieval Christian-Orthodox teachings of the Macedonian Saints Cyril and Methodius and their Macedonian disciples S.S. Clement and Naum; descendants of the medieval Macedonian king Samuel; descendants of the fighters against the Ottoman Empire Petar Delyan, Georgi Voyteh and Karposh; descendants of the fighters in the glorious Ilinden Uprising Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli, Dame Gruev and Jane Sandanski; descendants of the fighters of resistance against Nazi and communist oppression during WWII Metodija Andonov Chento; divided by brutal force and against our will among our neighbours during the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913; and condemned by the unjust Bucharest Treaty of August 10, 1913, which expired in 1987;

• We, the Macedonians, from Aegean Macedonia, from Vardar Macedonia, from Pirin Macedonia, from Little Prespa and elsewhere;

• We, the exiled and suffering children of our Holy and Biblical motherland, Macedonia, which has nourished and sustained us for myriads of generations, hereby affirm our indomitable spirit and our unwavering determination to strive for our national and human rights, to succeed and never to yield!

And furthermore we declare that:

• Starting from the principles of the Charter of the UN, from the goals and principles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; from the International Declaration of Human Rights; from the Final Document of the European Conference for Security and Cooperation; from the principles of the Paris Charter for New Europe, according to which, the countries, members of these organizations and signatories of these documents have committed themselves to respect and equality of all peoples and their right for self-determination;

• We, the Macedonians, do hereby most solemnly declare, that we completely honor and abide by the principles contained in the Charter of the UN and that the so called “Interim agreement” signed on September 13, 1995 contradicts and flouts these vary same principles;

• We condemn the signing by the Republic of Macedonia of that agreement and call for an imposition of an immediate moratorium on it;

• We call upon the parliament of the Republic of Macedonia not to ratify that agreement until the Macedonian public opinion has been consulted in an open and democratic way;

• We assert that the government of the Republic of Macedonia has sabotaged all the democratic processes whereby issues of vital national interest have been flagrantly compromised and the democratic and popular voice of the Macedonian people has been rendered irrelevant;

• We claim, like all other members of the UN to have a sovereign, natutal, historical and civilizational right to be recognized under our one and only name Macedonia; with all the accompanying attributes of a sovereign state, including our national flag, national anthem and constitution, as they are at the present time;

• We ask all four of our neighbours: Greece, Albania, Serbia and Bulgaria to recognize the Human Rights of the Macedonians who live in those countries, in accordance with the International Law and the Principles of the European Union;

• We urge the UN and the International Community to prevent Greece’s blackmail of Macedonia;

• We refuse, in principle, to accept the artificial argument which Greece has impose upon Macedonia regarding our name, national symbols and constitution;

• We ask that Greece recognize the existence of a Macedonian ethnic entity within her borders and permit them to exercise their basic human rights to worship in their own Macedonian churches and receive elementary education in their native Macedonian language, according to International Law;

• We ask that all of the exiled Macedonians be allowed to return to their ancestral homes of which they have been dispossessed by the Greek government during this century;

• We want unimpeded and open flaw of people and goods in the spirit of the free Europe;

• We appeal to the free and democratic world to recall that the Badinter Arbitrary International Commission, made up of the high justices of the constitutional Supreme Courts of five members of the EU, ruled unanimously and recommended that Macedonia qualified for recognition as an independent and sovereign state and that “the name Macedonia does not imply territorial pretensions towards any of its neighbours.”

• It is high time that Macedonia and the Macedonians get the respect that we deserve!

To those aims we devote ourselves and herein put our signatures:

1. Macedonian Human Rights Movement (NE USA)
2. Macedonian Orthodox Church SS Cyril and Methodius of Cedar Grove, NJ
3. Macedonian Orthodox Church St. Nikola of Totowa, NJ
4. Macedonian Soccer Club of Clifton, NJ
5. Macedonian World Congress
6. Macedonian World Congress of North America
7. Macedonian Orthodox Church St. Clement of Ohrid in NY
8. Macedonian Society of NY
9. United Macedonians of Toronto, Canada
10. Macedonian Orthodox Church St. Dimitrija of S. Florida

[Frank]

think your view is mere wishful thinking and not what really happened. It has also been clearly stated by its creators that it has no ethnic, cultural or historic significance for Macedonians. in fact, there was info published back in 1995 (Today Denes paper, Australia) linking it to an exact (or close) replica of a Soviet Red Army Flag of WWII era.

I like to not accept what Denes said in 95 especially an Austrlian rag, the truth be told we dont know how the Macedonian State Flag came into been

But I would state this the 8 ray sun motif is seen throught thosands of reliefs and archlogical digs throug out Makedonia and rock art the most signiicant I prefer to beleve that was the story not a Slavist Communist agenda.

Again it is high time some dam Macedonians better respect the current State Flag as it is ours we have 2 let us rest at that shall we.

Oh intesting dig up of the archives good to remeber that stuff.

[osiris]

i like the new flag and think its better looking as a symbol then the ancient one. the three letters indigen posted are all my friends especially mango and angelokov and i respect their opinions.

while i do resent having a choice taken from us, but i am with frank the symbol it represents exists throughout macedonia and i think as a second choice its great as i said even better than the other original one.

[Vangelovski]

Originally Posted by Frank

I like to not accept what Denes said in 95 especially an Austrlian rag, the truth be told we dont know how the Macedonian State Flag came into been

But I would state this the 8 ray sun motif is seen throught thosands of reliefs and archlogical digs throug out Makedonia and rock art the most signiicant I prefer to beleve that was the story not a Slavist Communist agenda.

Again it is high time some dam Macedonians better respect the current State Flag as it is ours we have 2 let us rest at that shall we.

Oh intesting dig up of the archives good to remeber that stuff.

Frank, can you show me any evidence of where the ventilator has existed in history? If there are so many examples of it, surely you can provide at least one.

[indigen]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rising_Sun_Flag

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...flags#Military



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._China.svg.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Malaysia.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...amibia.svg.png





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallery_of_country_flags

Perhaps the SDSM Kretins were inspired by some of the above designs?