The book that should not exist, Macedonian-Greek lexicon from 1907!

[Onur]

Originally Posted by thessalo-niki

These were among the most insignificant, poor and mountainous areas populated by Greeks. That was actually, one of the reasons why revolution started there. It was the most remote part of Ottoman Empire. The biggest city was probably Tripoli/Tripolitsa, I doubt there was even a printery in it.

Yes, current southern Greece was the remote part of the Empire but that was probably the least important reason.

The most important reasons was;
Because it was impossible to convince the Greeks of Istanbul for a revolt at that time. They were proud to be considered as the descendants of Roman Empire. They were considering themselves as Romans and there was no such a thing called "Hellas" existed for them at 1820s. Also they were enjoying the privileges given to them by the Turks, like controlling all the Christians in Ottoman Empire. Similarly, Greeks of Izmir was also happy to live there by being merchants and tradesmen. Just in case if you didn't know, Salonika and Izmir was Europe`s biggest commercial ports at 19th century and the population of Italian and French tradesmen in Izmir, called as "Levantines", was even more than local Greeks.

As for the central Anatolia. Greek population wasn't more than %1 already. Cappadocians and in broader term, Karamanlides people was just christian Turks since 12th century. They published books, magazines and spoke in Turkish only. Even the patriarchy of Istanbul was publishing and delivering Turkish bibles to them.

So, what left? The peasants of current southern Greece. The nomadic shepherd Vlachs with black headscarfs, christian Albanians with their white skirts and some other romaika speaking people. But these revolting peasants wasn't the big factor, but their financiers was.

[thessalo-niki]

Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

Which notable Greeks during this period were born in the borders of 1821 Greece? How many Vlachs and Albanians counted as 'Greeks'?

Here's a list of the most notable Greeks from that period (1400-1800) born in the area of Peloponnisos-Roumeli (the blue part of the map). I have noted aside when someone is Vlach or Arvanite.
This is a subjective view. You may notify me, if I have forgotten someone important or have made any mistakes.

15th Century
Constantine XI Palaiologos (born in Mistra) last Roman Emperor
Helena Palaiologina (born in Mistra) Queen of Cyprus and Armenia
Krokodilos Kladas (probably born in Bardunia of Mani) military leader in the Turkish-Venetian wars and the 1480s insurgency
Theodoros Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader in the 1480s insurgency (Arvanite)
Maximos III (=Manuel Christonymos) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios I (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Nyfon II (born in Messinia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Laonikos Halkokondylis (born in Athens) historian
Antonios Pyropoulos (born in Koroni), religious author and monk
Georgios Ermonymos (=Charitonymos or Spartiatis) (born in Sparta) religious author, teacher and monk

16th Century
Mercurios Bua (probably born in Angelokastro) military leader of Greek mercenaries, mostly for Venetians (Arvanite)
Thomas Eleavoulkos (born in Koroni), theologian, monk
Manouel Malaxos (born in Nafplio), translator, minor poet and historian
Saint Filothei (=Paraskevi Benizelou) (born in Athens), nun, teacher and philanthropist
Symeon Kavasilas (born in Akarnania) translator and author
Gabriel Seviros (born in Monemvasia) author, bishop of Philadelphia, Lydia
Ioannis Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author
Theodosios Zigomalas (born in Nafplio) author, historian, philologist
Antonio Millo (born in Milos) chartographer

17th Century
Leonardos Philaras (born in Athens) diplomat and advisor to the French Court
Liberakis Gerakaris (born in Itilos), Pirate, Bay of Mani
Philotheos (Charitopoulos) (born in Agia Efthymia) Bishop of Salona, leader of the 1680s insurgency during the Turkish-Venetian war
Callinicos II (=Poulos or Akarnan, born in Kastania, Agrafa) Patriarch of Constantinople
Dionysios III Vardalis (born in Andros) Patriarch of Constantinople
Eugenious the Aetolian (=Ioannoulis, born in Mega Dendron) Author, Priest, Teacher, Saint
Antonios Vasilakis (=Antonio Vassilacchi, born in Milos) Painter

18th Century
Panayiotis Benakis (born in Kalamata) merchant, financier of the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Pieros (Ilias) Mavromichalis (born in Mani) leader in the 1770s Orlov insurgency
Labros Katsonis (born in Livadia) admiral of Russian Navy in the 1780s Russian-Turkish war
Nicholas Mavrogenes (born in Paros) Prince of Wallachia
Cosmas of Aetolia (=Kostas Dimitrou, born in Mega Dendro) Saint, prophet, monk
Macarius of Corinth (born in Corinth) Bishop of Corinth, author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Nicodemus the Hagiorite (=Nicholas Kallivourtsis, born in Naxos) author, philosopher of Hesychasm
Serapheim I (born in Akarnania) Patriarch of Constantinople
Cyril V (born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Prokopios (Pelekasis) (born in Sitsova/Alagonia) Patriarch of Constantinople
Gregory V (=Georgios Angelopoulos, born in Dimitsana) Patriarch of Constantinople
Athanasios Parios (born in Paros) theologian, philosopher, hymnographer
Dionysious of Fourna (=Chalkias, born in Fourna) hagiographer
Panagiotis Doxaras (born in Katifori of Mani) painter
Nikolaos Doxaras (born in Kalamata) painter
______________________________________
Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

[Bill77]

Lets start with the first name you posted.

Constantine XI Palaiologos (born in Mistra)

Apart from being known as a "Roman Emperor"

His mother was what you would call a "Slav". Helena Dragaš, the daughter of the Serbian prince Constantine Dragaš

His Father was Manuel II Palaiologus.
Now Manuel II was the son of Emperor John V Palaiologus, who's mother was "Anna of Savoy" (born Giovanna) who was the second wife of "Andronikos III" and had had four children:

*Maria (renamed Eirene) Palaiologina (1327 - after 1356), who married Michael Asen IV оf Bulgaria. Her husband was the eldest son of Ivan Alexander of Bulgaria and his first wife Theodora of Wallachia.

*Michael Palaiologos, despotes (1337 - before 1370). He entered the court of Stefan Uroš IV Dušan of Serbia in 1351/1352.

*John V Palaiologos (18 June 1332 - 16 February 1391).

*Eirene (renamed Maria) (d. 1401), who married Francesco I of Lesbos






Manuel II maternal grandparents were Emperor John VI Kantakouzenos (1347–1354) and Irene Asanina.

Now try and stay with me if you can,

Irene's paternal Grand parents were "Ivan Asen III of Bulgaria" (the name "Asen sounds a bit suspect, but Early rulers from the Asen dynasty (particularly Kaloyan) referred to themselves as "Emperors of Bulgarians and Vlachs").


So thats how we get the term "its all Greek to me" Bloody confusing isn't it.

But if you really think about it, and it should not be that hard, You would conclude that, Just like modern Greeks (who are a mixed race) that are not realy Greeks, neither was Constantine.


(A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)

QUOTE: "…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……"

But it gets worse for you thessa

QUOTE: "Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh…"

[julie]

Love your work Bill

[Onur]

Originally Posted by Bill77

Manuel II maternal grandparents were Emperor John VI Kantakouzenos (1347–1354) and Irene Asanina.

Now try and stay with me if you can,

Irene's paternal Grand parents were "Ivan Asen III of Bulgaria" (the name "Asen sounds a bit suspect, but Early rulers from the Asen dynasty (particularly Kaloyan) referred to themselves as "Emperors of Bulgarians and Vlachs").

Asen dynasty was founded by Cuman-Kipchak Turks;



"Cumans and Tatars: Oriental Military in the Pre-Ottoman Balkans, 1185-1365" by Istvan Vasary;

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...2110#post52110



"Asena" means wolf, "Terterids" means Tatars, "Shismanids" means stouts and "Basarabids" means ruling father in Turkish. While "Basar-aba" is kinda old Turkic but we still use the words "şişman", "tatar" and "asena"(as a name only) today in Turkish.

[Makedonetz]

Were Still waiting for a pure greek to show up Vlachos in your archives


Good info Bill77

Ps Bill i love your avatar! Ajde Ajde!

[Sweet Sixteen]

You can download the book here:

http://anemi.lib.uoc.gr/metadata/1/6...92-0000004.tkl

At the bottom of the page you press download book and you type the number you'll see in the picture. I took a quick look, there's an extended vocabulary where he tries to relate what he calls Slav-like Macedonian words with Greek words (ancient or modern). Unfortunately, this is in Greek (published in 1907) and Macedonian words are also in Greek script.

This is 200 pages, of which 175 is the vocabulary.

A superficial opinion; this doesn't seem very good, but it's a start and a reference point. I can't see Homeric references. Usually, there's a Greek word or name and a similar Macedonian one, but the rate of similarity and the real origin of the words is not scrutinised. For instance, the word may be... Italian. Sometimes, the two words (of which the meaning is often explained) do not even seem similar enough.

I would like to write a few examples (probably the first 5-10 pairs in letter A) but I don't understand the (very) first ones! (Now, that is a bad start). I'll give you the first ones in letter T:

Tabla-Tabla (table)
Taxis-Tax (class?)
Tarasso-Tresam (to shake)
Tazo-Taxam (to promise)
Tekea-Decham (children)
Tekos-Dette (child)
Teino-Tegnam (to stress)
Tekmairomai-Teknam (conjecture)
Teiro-Terram (to persecute)
Ekteiro-Isterram (to persecute)
....

They are transliterated (by me) from Greek to Latin script.

….

[George S.]

ss i read somewhere that homer wrote in the pelazgian language.No wonder we understand those words today in modern Macedonian.Tegnam to stress.dette child deca children.etc etc.You are showing us greek writing of the 15th century .I can't bear to read in greek let alone understand it.BUt homers writings can be understood with modern Macedonian words.Of course you guys carry on that its all greek which it isn't.What it does prove that there were many different tribes of Macedonian origin .Pelazgians was one.
I'm told that the 16 rays of sun on the Macedonian sun symbol represent the 16 Macedonian tribes in Macedonia.That's one of many things we know also that HOMER wrote in the pelazgian language.So your govt stole our Macedonian sun symbol not fully realising what it really stood for.
Also iread that homer wrote about the Mycenian world and not the greek world which is totally different.

[Sweet Sixteen]

Originally Posted by George S.

ss i read somewhere that homer wrote in the pelazgian language. That's one of many things we know also that HOMER wrote in the pelazgian language.

No, he wrote in Greek of his time, in a language that is considered distant to typical classical Greek because it’s not Attic and it is 2-3 centuries earlier. It’s a mix of dialects mostly Ionic (also Aeolic and others). These dialects were spoken in the districts surrounding Attica.

Originally Posted by George S.

No wonder we understand those words today in modern Macedonian.

Actually you don’t understand it. Or, at least, you haven’t still told us which words you understand and why.

Originally Posted by George S.

Tegnam to stress. dette child deca children.etc etc.You are showing us greek writing of the 15th century. I can't bear to read in greek let alone understand it. BUt homers writings can be understood with modern Macedonian words. Of course you guys carry on that its all greek which it isn't.

This is a lexicon from 1907, not 15th century. The Macedonian words are modern words of the time including many local peasant words. The Greek words are… about anything ranging from antiquity until 1900 including also local, peasant, slang and words of foreign origins, craftsman words etc.

Originally Posted by George S.

What it does prove that there were many different tribes of Macedonian origin. Pelazgians was one.

No, Pelasgians are not related to Macedonians. Pelasgians were not a Macedonian tribe. Macedonians were not a Pelasgian tribe. I understand it’s not very clear what Pelasgians were and I see you already checked and copied the Wikipedia article. Well, inside this article and among the many contradictory references you should pay more attention to the extended ones coming from historians (e.g. Herodotus).

Originally Posted by George S.

I'm told that the 16 rays of sun on the Macedonian sun symbol represent the 16 Macedonian tribes in Macedonia.

That’s not true. Similarly, various imaginative Greek interpretations you can find in the internet are not true either. There isn’t a specific meaning in the symbols of 8, 12 or 16 rays except for the quarter symmetry. There isn’t any ancient reference to such an interpretation.

Originally Posted by George S.

So your govt stole our Macedonian sun symbol not fully realising what it really stood for.

Greece blocked you from using this symbol in your flag or as a national symbol. From our point of view your state is unrelated to ancient Macedonia.

Originally Posted by George S.

Also I read that homer wrote about the Mycenian world and not the greek world which is totally different.

Nope. Iliad describes a pan-hellenic campaign against Troy, with the main characters coming from all Greek kingdoms (and Troy of course). Odyssey takes place abroad (in the Mediterranean Sea), the protagonist is the King of Ithaca.


==

[George S.]

ss first of all you have gl;ossed over a lot of things homer writing in greek of his time.THe greeks weren't around the time homer is writing .Its about mycenians and not
greeks.The greeks hadn't arrived yet so how can he write in greek.You call pelazgian language classic greek.THere are a lot of words in the illiad (illi in Macedonian) is the sun god.Not in greek.Rubbish the greeks arrived in the greek peninsular centuries later where they adopted the phonecian alphabet .The Macedonians were already in Macedonia much much earlier than the greeks.What a joke you aren't really indigenous to the greek?peninsular.You call it typical greek How can it be when the greek language wasn't around!
The fact is we do understand Homeric writings as the words are similar to today's Macedonian Proof that greeks weren't around that time & also the diversity of people.
You say you have 4000 Years of GREEK HISTORY in a book you only have been around for 3000 years that is a big lie.Macedonians existed prior to your greeks and homer wrote about a time Prior to greeks coming to Greece.IF you can't accept that then you got a problem that the greeks didn't even exist then.Also remember the war with troy the Macedonians WERE EXCLUDED from participating because THEY were not greek centuries later.Why weren't Macedonians included because greek & Macedonians were NOT the SAME.But today you go on as if its all greek to you.Check the words in the illiad you will find hundreds or even thousands of words that are strictly Macedonian.That is proof that our language has retained quite a large amount of words with their roots in Macedonian not GREEK.IF you search you will see How much actrual greek words there are.Makes a mockery of your claims that is all greek.
A good many people are awakening to the lies & deceit you are peddling,for a time even your learnered people did it but now they come to a realization that its not laa greek & its cracked up to be.Before the greeks there were different people on the greek peninsular I say GREEK with reservation as the people were totally different to the greeks.You call that classical greek of course you call it even when you wasn't around then