Cleopatra and the Macedonians of Egypt - Page 5

Agamoi Thytai · 12-12-2010, 05:07 PM

FYI,a small taste of what Stacy Schiff's book reads:

YouTube - Cleopatra - Greek Macedonian Decent - Ptolemaic Dynasty - Short

The LION will ROAR · 12-12-2010, 05:16 PM

Agamoi Thytai what is Greek Macedonian..? isn't it a modern concept that Greeks love to use now days..?
Sorry, you are either Greek or Macedonian..
I wonder what History books she had studied..?

julie · 12-13-2010, 12:55 AM

Its the Greeks falsifying history and the west blindly accepting their bitches antics.
You are either Macedonian, or Greek, whatever that is

Another bullshit propoganda movie
Alexander the Great was Macedonian. His empire was made up of the Macedonian soldiers. The ptolemaic era was Macedonian.

Greeks lay claim to Macedonia when it suits them
Without Macedonia they are nothing
Aegean Macedonia is the most fertile land
If they did not have that they would starve, the south of Greece is rocky and not arable land

Am disappointed this movie is another bullshit el helleno funded propoganda dummy spit

George S. · 12-13-2010, 01:18 AM

more unhistorical greek crap.How can a person be macedonian greek or greek macedonian
it defy's logic.Who ever is making these silly innacurrate films good luck too them they are shit movies.

I of Macedon · 02-03-2011, 08:48 AM

Hellenistic Egypt: monarchy, society, economy, culture
By Jean Bingen, Roger S. Bagnall
2007

Under Ptolemy II, in certain official Ptolemaic texts, like the collection of regulations called P. Revenue Laws or a Prostagma like C. Ord. Ptol. 21, it is prescribed that identity, when a full name was required...that one has to add to the name of a person the name of his father and that of his homeland...remained throughout the Ptolemaic age; the death penalty would punish any ‘change of homeland and names’. In Egypt hundreds of regulated identities allow us to draw up an extraordinary picture of immigration: someone is a son of so-and-so, Cretan or Polyrrhenian from Crete or Achaean or Athenian, Thracian...and in the most prestigious case, Macedonian. On the strict plan of personal identity, one is as a rule neither Greek, nor Egyptian, because these two mark a very wide social status. One would perhaps acquire one of these broader statuses because he gives his full identity. The Macedonian contingent was particularly important...and access to this prestigious group was certainly jealously protected. The socially preeminent place of the Macedonian cavalry katoikoi in the chora explains why Makedon would, quite exceptionally, survive as an individual and private marker during the first half of the first century AD. It is the only identity mark with a patris connotation that did not disappear with the Ptolemaic dynasty.

Let us abandon, then, the idea that the homeland for which Cleopatra proclaims her love could be Alexandria. This would make no sense. Obviously Cleopatra gives prominence in her new titulature to her Macedonian ancestry and her links to the Macedonian aristocracy...The queen implicitly alludes to her ancestor, the Macedonian Ptolemy, who first reigned from Alexandria over a vast empire, in which Egypt was not a homeland, but a strategic base and a land to be exploited economically. She calls attention to the relationship of blood, specifically of Macedonian blood, that united Ptolemies and Seleucids. The word even echoed the prestige of the Macedonian hero par excellence, Alexander the Great, the conqueror who opened Egypt to the Macedonians and who was buried in Alexandria but was also the founder of a broader more ephemeral Macedonian Empire.

15 Bearzot (1992) does not help us here....I would not follow Bearzot when she considers that the Macedonians, because of their small number, merged with Greeks. As we have just said, in Egypt, Makedon, ethnic, and Hellen, social qualification, are semantically and juridically situated on two different levels.

In Hellenistic Egypt, the most prestigious patris is that of Makedon, which for a while survived the elimination of ethnic designations in the reorganisation by the Roman conquerors of the official mean of expressing identity.

The children of Antony...To the youngest child, Ptolemy Philadelphos...This new Seleucid destiny of the young boy is symbolised by the Macedonian insignia of his power, the chlamys of purple, the diadem and the Macedonian head-dress kausia. A limestone head of the prince wears the kausia decorated with a small uraeus, signs of his Alexandrian and Macedonian royal ancestry.

In fact, in the documents Hellenes are not apposed to Macedonians or Thracians (such a scheme would be anachronistic in Ptolemaic Egypt). When ethnic is needed, Greeks are designated by a Greek local origin at the same level as the Thracian or Macedonian generic ethnics. The notion of ‘Greek register’ which I use above is only a shortcut of the modern historian, and has no ethnological character, but reflects only socio-political allegiance to the basileus and membership in the immigrant structures - as opposed to the socio-religious Egyptian system and its own religious feelings about the nature and the role of the king as pharaoh.

osiris · 02-03-2011, 09:29 PM

good post i feel insulted every time i see or hear some one refer to alexanders generals kingdoms as hellenistic. it is a historians term invented a few hundred years ago, it was not a term in use by the people of that time. yet again another example of others defining our identity not just in the present but over 2 thousaand years ago. it is patently wrong to call those kingdoms hellenic and to deny us modern macedonians any link with them, instead allowing our greedy southern neighbours the arvanovlachs to revel in the ancient macedonians glory and contribution to world civilization.

indigen · 02-10-2011, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by osiris

good post i feel insulted every time i see or hear some one refer to alexanders generals kingdoms as hellenistic. it is a historians term invented a few hundred years ago, it was not a term in use by the people of that time. yet again another example of others defining our identity not just in the present but over 2 thousaand years ago. it is patently wrong to call those kingdoms hellenic and to deny us modern macedonians any link with them, instead allowing our greedy southern neighbours the arvanovlachs to revel in the ancient macedonians glory and contribution to world civilization.

If to add INSULT to INJURY, such designations are much more PAINFUL (and TREASONOUS) when coming from official "Macedonian" representatives and INSTITUTIONS! I exposed Pasko Kuzman for such dirty deeds nearly two years ago and there were many here who jumped to his defence. IMO, it may be worth revisiting that topic to see who said what and for what reasons and perhaps learning some lessons in analysis of what are essential Macedonian national interests that no individual, regardless of who and how he/she is perceived, can or should ever be allowed to compromise or undermine.

Google search for: pasko kuzman macedonian hellenic

Quote:

Search Results

1.
Pasko Kuzman promoting "Macedonian-Hellenistic period" - anti ...
10 posts - 4 authors - Last post: 18 Oct 2009
Pasko Kuzman: "in the Macedonian - Hellenic period, namely from the middle of the 4th century to the middle of the 2nd century BC." ...
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...hp?t=1992&page... - Cached
Get more discussion results
2.
Macedonian Archaeological News > Number 3, Volume I, October 2009 ...
1 Aug 2009 ... Macedonian Type of Tomb in Varos – Ohrid. Pasko Kuzman ... Macedonian tombs from the Early Antiquity and the Macedonian - Hellenic period. ...
mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=18 - Cached
3.
Ohrid Vacation, Travel, Tourism, Visit Ohrid - Official Web Site ...
Graves from the Macedonian-Hellenic necropolis have been discovered with the .... The explorations were conducted by: Pasko Kuzman, Dragica Simovska and ...
http://www.ohrid.com.mk/archaeology/...ogy.asp?ID=381 - Cached

George S. · 02-10-2011, 09:13 PM

INdigen you should be congratulated it's rather insulting.You know why because they did the deciding for us & we shouldn't let them.You know another insult is to say cleopatra was greek she was macedonian & could speak macedonian.What hellenistic period it was a macedonianistic period.If you tell a lie often enough it becomes for realeventually..

George S. · 02-10-2011, 09:15 PM

Indigen this pasko kuzman on you tube reckons that he knows where alexander is buried in macedonia??what do you reckon.

The LION will ROAR · 02-11-2011, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by George S.

Indigen this pasko kuzman on you tube reckons that he knows where alexander is buried in macedonia??what do you reckon.

George, not just Kuzman but other creditable Historians in Macedonia have said the same thing....They must know something that the world doesn't...?

12-12-2010, 05:07 PM	#41
Agamoi Thytai Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Terra Darnacorum Posts: 198	FYI,a small taste of what Stacy Schiff's book reads: YouTube - Cleopatra - Greek Macedonian Decent - Ptolemaic Dynasty - Short __________________ "What high honour do the Macedonians deserve, who throughout nearly their whole lives are ceaselessly engaged in a struggle with the barbarians for the safety of the Greeks?" Polybius, Histories, 9.35

12-12-2010, 05:16 PM	#42
The LION will ROAR Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Australia, Sydney Posts: 3,231	Agamoi Thytai what is Greek Macedonian..? isn't it a modern concept that Greeks love to use now days..? Sorry, you are either Greek or Macedonian.. I wonder what History books she had studied..? __________________ The Macedonians originates it, the Bulgarians imitate it and the Greeks exploit it!

12-13-2010, 12:55 AM	#43
julie Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: makedonska colonia Posts: 3,869	Its the Greeks falsifying history and the west blindly accepting their bitches antics. You are either Macedonian, or Greek, whatever that is Another bullshit propoganda movie Alexander the Great was Macedonian. His empire was made up of the Macedonian soldiers. The ptolemaic era was Macedonian. Greeks lay claim to Macedonia when it suits them Without Macedonia they are nothing Aegean Macedonia is the most fertile land If they did not have that they would starve, the south of Greece is rocky and not arable land Am disappointed this movie is another bullshit el helleno funded propoganda dummy spit __________________ "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

02-03-2011, 08:48 AM	#45
I of Macedon Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 222	Identity in Ancient Egypt Hellenistic Egypt: monarchy, society, economy, culture By Jean Bingen, Roger S. Bagnall 2007 Under Ptolemy II, in certain official Ptolemaic texts, like the collection of regulations called P. Revenue Laws or a Prostagma like C. Ord. Ptol. 21, it is prescribed that identity, when a full name was required...that one has to add to the name of a person the name of his father and that of his homeland...remained throughout the Ptolemaic age; the death penalty would punish any ‘change of homeland and names’. In Egypt hundreds of regulated identities allow us to draw up an extraordinary picture of immigration: someone is a son of so-and-so, Cretan or Polyrrhenian from Crete or Achaean or Athenian, Thracian...and in the most prestigious case, Macedonian. On the strict plan of personal identity, one is as a rule neither Greek, nor Egyptian, because these two mark a very wide social status. One would perhaps acquire one of these broader statuses because he gives his full identity. The Macedonian contingent was particularly important...and access to this prestigious group was certainly jealously protected. The socially preeminent place of the Macedonian cavalry katoikoi in the chora explains why Makedon would, quite exceptionally, survive as an individual and private marker during the first half of the first century AD. It is the only identity mark with a patris connotation that did not disappear with the Ptolemaic dynasty. Let us abandon, then, the idea that the homeland for which Cleopatra proclaims her love could be Alexandria. This would make no sense. Obviously Cleopatra gives prominence in her new titulature to her Macedonian ancestry and her links to the Macedonian aristocracy...The queen implicitly alludes to her ancestor, the Macedonian Ptolemy, who first reigned from Alexandria over a vast empire, in which Egypt was not a homeland, but a strategic base and a land to be exploited economically. She calls attention to the relationship of blood, specifically of Macedonian blood, that united Ptolemies and Seleucids. The word even echoed the prestige of the Macedonian hero par excellence, Alexander the Great, the conqueror who opened Egypt to the Macedonians and who was buried in Alexandria but was also the founder of a broader more ephemeral Macedonian Empire. 15 Bearzot (1992) does not help us here....I would not follow Bearzot when she considers that the Macedonians, because of their small number, merged with Greeks. As we have just said, in Egypt, Makedon, ethnic, and Hellen, social qualification, are semantically and juridically situated on two different levels. In Hellenistic Egypt, the most prestigious patris is that of Makedon, which for a while survived the elimination of ethnic designations in the reorganisation by the Roman conquerors of the official mean of expressing identity. The children of Antony...To the youngest child, Ptolemy Philadelphos...This new Seleucid destiny of the young boy is symbolised by the Macedonian insignia of his power, the chlamys of purple, the diadem and the Macedonian head-dress kausia. A limestone head of the prince wears the kausia decorated with a small uraeus, signs of his Alexandrian and Macedonian royal ancestry. In fact, in the documents Hellenes are not apposed to Macedonians or Thracians (such a scheme would be anachronistic in Ptolemaic Egypt). When ethnic is needed, Greeks are designated by a Greek local origin at the same level as the Thracian or Macedonian generic ethnics. The notion of ‘Greek register’ which I use above is only a shortcut of the modern historian, and has no ethnological character, but reflects only socio-political allegiance to the basileus and membership in the immigrant structures - as opposed to the socio-religious Egyptian system and its own religious feelings about the nature and the role of the king as pharaoh. __________________ No need to sit in the shade, because we stand under our own sun Last edited by I of Macedon; 02-03-2011 at 08:55 AM.

12-13-2010, 01:18 AM	#44
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	more unhistorical greek crap.How can a person be macedonian greek or greek macedonian it defy's logic.Who ever is making these silly innacurrate films good luck too them they are shit movies.

02-03-2011, 09:29 PM	#46
osiris Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Posts: 1,969	good post i feel insulted every time i see or hear some one refer to alexanders generals kingdoms as hellenistic. it is a historians term invented a few hundred years ago, it was not a term in use by the people of that time. yet again another example of others defining our identity not just in the present but over 2 thousaand years ago. it is patently wrong to call those kingdoms hellenic and to deny us modern macedonians any link with them, instead allowing our greedy southern neighbours the arvanovlachs to revel in the ancient macedonians glory and contribution to world civilization.

02-10-2011, 09:13 PM	#48
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	INdigen you should be congratulated it's rather insulting.You know why because they did the deciding for us & we shouldn't let them.You know another insult is to say cleopatra was greek she was macedonian & could speak macedonian.What hellenistic period it was a macedonianistic period.If you tell a lie often enough it becomes for realeventually..

02-10-2011, 09:15 PM	#49
George S. Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 10,116	Indigen this pasko kuzman on you tube reckons that he knows where alexander is buried in macedonia??what do you reckon.

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