Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia

[George S.]

I remember reading that during the ottoman occupation both Bulgarian & Greek clergy were busy infiltrating the Macedonian churches trying to teach the population that they were either Greek or Bulgarian.This is in the 16,000-17000s.THese clergy were working in a frenzy trying to change the religion of their respective populations.Obviously people writing about it keep harping that Macedonians are Bulgars or Greeks.The macedonian people are not stupid to change their religion for the sake of some clergy.

[ohridski]

I remember reading that during the ottoman occupation both Bulgarian & Greek clergy were busy infiltrating the Macedonian churches trying to teach the population that they were either Greek or Bulgarian.This is in the 16,000-17000s.THese clergy were working in a frenzy trying to change the religion of their respective populations.Obviously people writing about it keep harping that Macedonians are Bulgars or Greeks.The macedonian people are not stupid to change their religion for the sake of some clergy.

George, I think you are a bit confused. The religion of Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Greeks is one and the same; Eastern Orthodox.

It was the Greek clergy that had full authority in the Ottoman lands, and Macedonians and Bulgarians alike were grouped under the Greek Millet. No one was changing the religion, as it was/is the same religion, the Greeks were just seen as the official administrative unit of Eastern Orthodox populations in Macedonia and Bulgaria.

And if you really read up on this topic in detail.. it seems that most of the Bulgarian clergy were Macedonians.

This is exactly what I’m trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.

[Soldier of Macedon]

P.S. Old fashioned, bulgarian deja vu propaganda. Always claiming some ancestry from Ohrid(mk) or Pirin just to add some value to the propaganda, those kind of bullshits keep for yourself Ganchos.

While responding to Ohridski in another thread, I had a feeling he may be another pretender. And then I see this thread. They just keep coming and coming, these liars and pretenders do.

This is exactly what I’m trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.

If they are that obvious even to an 'ethnic Canadian' like yourself, why are you still trying to learn about them? What are they? Why are they so?

[George S.]

Ohridski, i know what i'm talking about.I don't beleive that the Macedonians ie the clergy would teach their flock bulgarian.You forget that during the ottoman occupation the Bulgarian clergy were trying to teach the Macedonians that they were Bulgarian.This was heavy duty propaganda from the bulgarians aimed to the macedonians to tell them that they were bulgarian.You say it was Macedonian clergy that's wrong why would macedonians teach themselves to be bulgarian???Why did the bulgarians try to do this it was for dominance.Over time we can see like the other neighbouring countries like bulgaria
wanted macedonian lands.If you look at your history there is no BUlgarians they are tartars.They adopted the macedonian language & customs.THat is the only link we have with the bulgarians.

[ohridski]

If they are that obvious even to an 'ethnic Canadian' like yourself, why are you still trying to learn about them? What are they? Why are they so?

My degree is in international relations.. It’s interesting for me.. I’d like to learn more about my birthplace and the region altogether, as there are so many different sides and perspectives.

One of my parents is from Macedonia and the other from Bulgaria, but I grew up in Canada.

Ohridski, i know what i'm talking about.I don't beleive that the Macedonians ie the clergy would teach their flock bulgarian.You forget that during the ottoman occupation the Bulgarian clergy were trying to teach the Macedonians that they were Bulgarian.This was heavy duty propaganda from the bulgarians aimed to the macedonians to tell them that they were bulgarian.You say it was Macedonian clergy that's wrong why would macedonians teach themselves to be bulgarian???Why did the bulgarians try to do this it was for dominance.Over time we can see like the other neighbouring countries like bulgaria
wanted macedonian lands.

I have never come across any sources from the early 1900's, which show that Bulgaria tried to claim Macedonian lands as its own. All sources from the early 1900’s show that Bulgaria wanted an independent Macedonia, free from the Ottomans.

[Soldier of Macedon]

One of my parents is from Macedonia and the other from Bulgaria.........

All the more reason why you should be familiar with these similarities or 'connections' that you speak of. Yet still, you haven't defined them. Are you waiting for something?

All sources from the early 1900’s show that Bulgaria wanted an independent Macedonia, free from the Ottomans.

Which sources? Which Bulgarians? Can you corroborate anything you are saying, or are you saying it just for the sake of saying it?

[ohridski]

All the more reason why you should be familiar with these similarities or 'connections' that you speak of. Yet still, you haven't defined them. Are you waiting for something?

I already mentioned that from what I know and from what I’ve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians seem to be most similar to each other than to anyone else. The culture, the cuisine, the traditions, the national heroes etc. are pretty much identical, yet it looks to me that Macedonians in general feel closest to Serbs than anyone else.

Which sources? Which Bulgarians? Can you corroborate anything you are saying, or are you saying it just for the sake of saying it?

Of course I can. However, I didn’t come to this forum to try and convince anyone of anything. Even if I made the effort to go through all the books I’ve read, the members on here will most likely ignore these findings. It seems everyone on here tries to differentiate Macedonians from their neighbors, and any similarities that are found are brushed over to the side.

[Soldier of Macedon]

The culture, the cuisine, the traditions, the national heroes etc. are pretty much identical, yet it looks to me that Macedonians in general feel closest to Serbs than anyone else.

What culture, cuisine and traditions? How much of it is not shared by other neighbours? Why the lack of transparency in your posts? Who are you to make the false judgement that Macedonians feel closer to Serbs than anyone else? Which Macedonians, from the Republic? From Pirin? You're a propagandist fool.

Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?

It seems everyone on here tries to differentiate Macedonians from their neighbors

Is there something wrong with people that are dedicated to the unique aspects of Macedonian culture? It seems that your whole aim since you arrived here has been to deface anything unique about Macedonian culture and smear it with Bulgar or Serb lies.

You must be a sad little person. And if you really are from where you claim, then you don't know the first thing about your true history. Go and find a Bulgar to hug and talk about your 'connections', it will make you feel better than dealing with people who will, by default, bring reality and the Macedonian truth to your attention, wether you like it or not.

[ohridski]

Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?

Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth. These are all shared. I don't know of any such historic figures that are shared between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.

What culture, cuisine and traditions? How much of it is not shared by other neighbours? Why the lack of transparency in your posts? Who are you to make the false judgement that Macedonians feel closer to Serbs than anyone else? Which Macedonians, from the Republic? From Pirin? You're a propagandist fool.

Just an observation based on the people I’ve come across in real life.

Is there something wrong with people that are dedicated to the unique aspects of Macedonian culture? It seems that your whole aim since you arrived here has been to deface anything unique about Macedonian culture and smear it with Bulgar or Serb lies.

I’m sorry you feel that way; my aim was to explore a neutral point of view.

You must be a sad little person. And if you really are from where you claim, then you don't know the first thing about your true history. Go and find a Bulgar to hug and talk about your 'connections', it will make you feel better than dealing with people who will, by default, bring reality and the Macedonian truth to your attention, wether you like it or not.

This is the problem.. instead of exploring the possibilities, you choose to be defensive and not talk about them.

As I said, from what I’ve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians were much closer in the past then they are today, which is why I believe that the differences are primarily political. Why else would Macedonians immigrate to Bulgaria when the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia? About ¼ of Bulgarians today descend from Macedonia.

On the other hand, I don’t know of any Bulgarian invasion in Macedonia that caused Macedonians to immigrate to Serbia or Greece.

[TrueMacedonian]

George, I think you are a bit confused. The religion of Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Greeks is one and the same; Eastern Orthodox.

It was the Greek clergy that had full authority in the Ottoman lands, and Macedonians and Bulgarians alike were grouped under the Greek Millet. No one was changing the religion, as it was/is the same religion, the Greeks were just seen as the official administrative unit of Eastern Orthodox populations in Macedonia and Bulgaria.

And if you really read up on this topic in detail.. it seems that most of the Bulgarian clergy were Macedonians.

This is exactly what I’m trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.

Hmmm,,, Why must we assume that this clergy was "greek"? Are you referring to them as "greek" in a nationalistic sense?

[ohridski]

Within the Ottoman Empire, the East Orthodox populations were all administratively placed under the Greek Millet. The clergy of the Greek Millet was Greek. There are many uncertainties as, even today, a person who is East Orthodox and speaks Greek is considered to be purely Greek in Greece.

[TrueMacedonian]

SoM asked;

Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?

Ohridski answered;

Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth. These are all shared. I don't know of any such historic figures that are shared between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.

Gruev was born in Smilevo, Sandanski near Melnik, and Misirkov in Pella. The Bulgarians celebrate our heroes because of their state propaganda. Now if you wish to discuss nationalism and use of the term "Bulgarian" amongst the Macedonians, including Misirkov, then let's take it here - http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum...read.php?t=835

[ohridski]

Gruev was born in Smilevo, Sandanski near Melnik, and Misirkov in Pella.

So then we are to judge a person’s ethnicity based on their birth place!? I was born in Ohrid, but I feel Canadian and identify as such ethnically.

Are we to conclude that if a white person is born in Africa that person should be classified as an ethnic African?

The point is that all of the shared national heroes (between Macedonia and Bulgaria) have at one point or another identified as both; Macedonian and Bulgarian.

And as I mentioned before, ethnicity is a learned trait. You are what you feel yourself to be, you are not born as an ethnic anything.

[TrueMacedonian]

So then we are to judge a person’s ethnicity based on their birth place!? I was born in Ohrid, but I feel Canadian and identify as such ethnically.

Are we to conclude that if a white person is born in Africa that person should be classified as an ethnic African?

You just contradicted yourself in the worse way. But I guess this is just a habit of yours.

The point is that all of the shared national heroes (between Macedonia and Bulgaria) have at one point or another identified as both; Macedonian and Bulgarian.

Yes and there are plenty of reasons why they identified as both. However not in the way you are thinking.

And as I mentioned before, ethnicity is a learned trait. You are what you feel yourself to be, you are not born as an ethnic anything.

This is what anthropologists have called "imagined communities"(Benedict Anderson). Great in theory concerning communities. However this falls to the wayside if you are born to parents of the same ethnicity or of different ethnicities, whether you like it or not the truth is you are not an ethnic Canadian. No such thing exists. A citizen of Canada you very well may be. Just like a citizen of modern "greece". You may "feel" Canadian through their North Americanized culture. However you are not an ethnic Canadian so stop with the bullshit already. If you want a serious debate then let's have at it or don't waste the forums time with your 15 year old answers. If you want to discuss when Nationalism discovered the Balkans en mass then we can discuss this too. Because there you will see the absurdity of what you call "Bulgarian", a new born state and ideology, start a rigorous propaganda program for Macedonia. I suggest you click the link I posted in the above post. If you are supposedly neutral then click the link and let's take it from there.

[TrueMacedonian]

Within the Ottoman Empire, the East Orthodox populations were all administratively placed under the Greek Millet. The clergy of the Greek Millet was Greek. There are many uncertainties as, even today, a person who is East Orthodox and speaks Greek is considered to be purely Greek in Greece.

Unfortunately I don't think this to be true. I think that the supposed "greek" clergy was first and foremost a Christian in the RUM millet. Not the "greek" millet that modern "greek" nationalists assert. If the clergy did call themselves anything it would have been Rum or "Roman", not "greek". Misinterpretations like these are unwarranted.