Deconstruction of the term Bulgar/B'lgar/Bugar/Voulgar!

[Risto the Great]

That is interesting indeed.
Change a couple of letters and .... instant Greek.

[TrueMacedonian]

page 8

[Bratot]

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Божидар Димитров во интервјуто за бугарскиот весник Standard News od 21/09/2003 истакнува дека неговото потекло е Татарско, дека дедовците му ја бричеле главата и дека сите носеле коњски репчиња (чумбаси), како и сите турко-татари. Имињата на неговите претци не биле Славјански, туку Татарски.


Дедите ми са ходели с бръснати глави и чумбаси, разказва историкът

Божидар Димитров разказва, че в рода му по майчина линия всичките мъже са черни, кръглоглави и грамадни. Той самият правел малко изключение с по-ниския си ръст, който наследил от баща си. Като запознат с практиката в Първата българска държава да настаняват по границата прабългарски гарнизони, защото нямали вяра на славяни и траки, историк номер едно дълго на майтап твърдял, че има прабългарски произход. Най-неочаквано обаче се оказало, че това е самата истина.

Преди години негов братовчед ентусиаст написал книга за рода им и решил да го събере на среща. Г-н Димитров забелязал, че първите двама в родословното дърво имат странни имена които в никакъв случай не са славянски - Мавроган (Черния хан) и Гургур. Нещо повече, някои братовчеди и досега носели тия имена, вероятно предавани през поколенията. По-късно му попаднала книга, в която прочел, че около Златоград до началото на ХХ век имало села, където мъжете носели дълги коси, наричани чумбаси. Те се спускали свободно по гърбовете им или били заплетени в дълга плитка.

"В с. Еникьой и някои други дедеагачки села мъжете също били с чумбаси, но по-къси - до раменете. Хората в този край запазили специфичния си бит и външен вид пише в книгата. Горо Горов, известен наш историк и опонент на Божидар Димитров, пък твърди следното: "Село Българе се отличава коренно от останалите. Хората там са диви, вадят ножа за нищо и те колят - така заклали гръцки чорбаджия от Ахтопол в края на ХIХ век."

Това твърдение ни най-малко не обижда Божидар Димитров. Когато през 1878 г. Българе останало на турска територия, Георги Мавродиев, дядото на историка по майчина линия, както много свои сънародници, избягал в пределите на свободното отечество. Заселил се във Веселие, Бургаско, недалече от Созопол. Правителството давало на бежанците земи с нискостеблени гори и той с двете си ръце изкоренявал дървета, направил си нива. Залюбили се с баба Дафина от Ченгере. Това село някога било на Маслен нос, днес е вече изчезнало, обяснява внукът.

"Имали са 10 свои деца и понеже били все момичета, осиновили едно момче. Аз едва на 30 години разбрах, че този мой вуйчо не е истински. Отгледали и едно роднинско сираче. Така се е правела България. Първите дъщери раждали едновременно с майките си, както леля ми Султана и баба ми, а дядо е участвал във всички войни и щом се върнел, правел по едно дете."

Божидар Димитров изброил 68 свои първи братовчеди. А за вторите казва, че са около 150 и ако се съберат, правят едно голямо село. Родът сега се е пръснал по цялото Черноморие - във Варна, Бургас, Созопол, Приморско, Царево. Признава, че често се случвало, като отиде на експедиция, да го настанят в някоя къща и от приказка на приказка с домакините да излязат роднини. А веднъж с една братовчедка от Приморско замалко щели да завъртят любов. "Никога не бих предположил - аз съм мургав, а тя е естествено руса. Изведнъж с изумление разбрахме, че сме рода", оправдава се историкът. Между по-известните негови братовчеди, които между другото са все висшисти, са журналистката Яна Мавродиева и полковникът Яне Янев."

Людмила Първанова

[Daskalot]

Bozidar Dimitrov states in an interview for the Bulgarian daily Standard News from 21/09/2003 that his origin is Tatar, that his grandfathers shaved their heads and wore horse repchinja (chumbasi) like all Tatars. The names of his ancestors were not Slavic but Tatar.

Translation of the above Bulgarian into English using Google translate:

My ancestors were walking with shaved heads and chumbasi, says historian

Bozidar Dimitrov says that in his family's maternal line all the men are black, enormous and Roundhead. He himself did little except to lower their growth, which is inherited from his father. As familiar with the practice in the first Bulgarian state to accommodate proto garrisons along the border, because they had no faith of the Slavs and Thracians, the historian of the number one long joke claimed that there proto origin. Most unexpectedly, however, proved that this is the truth.

Years ago, his cousin enthusiast wrote a book about their family and decided to bring it out. Mr. Dimitrov noticed that the first two in the family tree have strange names that in no case are Slavic - Mavrogan (Black Khan) and Gurgur. Moreover, some cousins still wore those names, probably transmitted through the generations. Later he fell book, which read that Zlatograd around the beginning of the twentieth century there were villages where the men wore long hair, called chumbasi. They are free veil on their backs or were tangled in a long queue.

"In the village Enikyoi dedeagachki and some other villages were also men with chumbasi, but shorter - to his shoulders. People in this region maintain their specific lifestyle and appearance writes in the book. Gorov Goro, a historian and our opponent Bozidar Dimitrov , do the following claims: "Village of Bulgari fundamentally differs from the others. People there are wild, draw the sword for nothing and they slaughtered - so slaughtered Greek Ahtopol gaffer at the end of the nineteenth century. "

We claim that at least does not offend Bozidar Dimitrov. When in 1878 Bulgaria remained in Turkish territory, Mavrodiev George, the grandfather of the historian's maternal line, as many of his countrymen, fled to the borders of the homeland free. Settled in Vesselie, Bourgas, not far from Sozopol. The government gave land to refugees and low-stemmed woods it with both hands, uproot trees, do their levels. Loved by her grandmother from Dafina Chengere. This village was once a cape Maslen, today is already gone, explains grandson.

"They had 10 of his children and because women were not, adopted a boy. I am only 30 years old I knew that my uncle is not true. Raised an orphan and a kinship. This is Rights Bulgaria. Nulliparous first daughters while their mothers as my aunt and my grandmother, Sultana, and his grandfather was involved in all the wars and when he returned, he did as a child. "

Bozidar Dimitrov list their 68 first cousins. And the latter said to be about 150 and if added together make one big village. The genus is now splattered all over the Black Sea - Varna, Bourgas, Sozopol, Primorsko, Tsarevo. Recognizes that often happened, he went on an expedition to settle in a house and the story of a story to go with the hosts relatives. And once one of Primorsko zamalko cousin would love to turn. "I would never have guessed - I'm dark, and she's naturally blonde. Suddenly I realized with amazement that we like," the historian is justified. Among its more famous cousins, which among others are all university graduates are journalist Jana Mavrodieva Yane Yanev and the colonel. "

Ludmila Parvanova

[Risto the Great]

Dimitrov has certainly changed his tune since a few years ago.
A pity neither tune is based on a melody.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Bozidar Dimitrov is a fool that has contradicted himself several times, and this is Bulgaria's great historian, sort of makes sense I suppose. Hardly anybody pays attention to him apart from Bulgarians and the few deluded supporters of theirs.

[TrueMacedonian]

It seems that we have alot of sufficient info on why Macedonians in many periods of time used the word "Bulgar" amongst themselves.

[TrueMacedonian]

Here's something interesting describing the East Roman times;



Balkan Worlds:The First and Last Europe by Traian Stoianovich

Interesting how Traian distiniguishes Bulgars meaning as "farmers" and Vlachs meaning as "shepards" in those earliest times.

[Risto the Great]

Of course that is the case.
The problem with Macedonians and Greeks etc. is they hope to use modern definitions of nationalism to define what were obvious different groups of people. To suggest Macedonians were Greeks under any definition is preposterous. To suggest Macedonians were Bulgarians, we need to look at the Bulgarian identity of 200 years ago. There was nothing there, that is why it is easy to say Macedonians were Bulgarians ... there is nothing of substance to compare them to. Imagine if the Ohrid Archbishopric was revived at the time of the Exarchate .... it would have been fun for all. The Bulgarian identity is lacking .... they want to be horse riding Mongol Attilas who spoke like Kiril & Metodi. Until they adopted their Eastern dialect, they kept looking to the West (Macedonia) for an identity. It has come to them from Macedonians. They can have their Asparuk.

[The LION will ROAR]

The Bulgarian Kettle Sees its Reflection

United Macedonian Diaspora<http://origin.ih.constantcontact.com...1102681548455>

The Bulgarian Kettle Sees its Reflection

By Boban Jovanovski, UMD Director of Public Policy [email protected]

Bulgaria's newly elected Prime Minister, Boyko Borissov, revealed a cabinet whose anti-Macedonian credentials would make even Greek Foreign Minister, Dora Bakoyannis, blush. Mr. Borissov himself burnished these credentials when he claimed in 2008 that, as Prime Minister, he would infiltrate the Macedonian economy and force Macedonians to both respect their "Bulgarian" past, and to love Bulgaria. Macedonian "denialists" in Bulgarian governments are nothing new. Mr. Borissov's rhetoric however, combined with the inclusion of one man in particular, Bozhidar Dimitrov, as minister without portfolio designated to handle "diaspora" affairs, are taken together particularly troubling signs.

Some may be unaware that Mr. Dimitrov is the former head of the National Historical Museum of Bulgaria. As such, he has built a reputation for glorifying the history of medieval Bulgaria, instilling pride in his compatriots over Bulgaria's hard-fought independence, and shedding light on its ancient Thracian, Persian, Roman, and Byzantine past. He is however, arguably most famous for not only denying the existence of a distinct, Macedonian nation, but of denigrating anyone who claims to be Macedonian as a mere "Serbo-communist."

Alone, Mr. Dimitrov fits the profile of the majority of nationalistic Balkan politicians. His inclusion in any government, particularly as the minister charged with assisting Bulgarians abroad, demands some inquiry into the motives of a Bulgarian foreign policy towards a nationality that Mr. Dimitrov expressly rejects. That he has little, if any diplomatic-consular experience should be a wake-up call to those apologists who prefer to give the new government the benefit of the doubt.

It should surprise no one that one of Mr. Dimitrov's first acts, as Diaspora Minister, was aimed directly at the Macedonian judiciary. Recently, a young mother with joint Macedonian-Bulgarian citizenship, Spasska Mitrova, was arrested and jailed for flouting a court order granting her husband visitation rights to their young daughter. Despite the clear breach of Macedonian law, Mr. Dimitrov leapt to his feet, declaring that Ms. Mitrova was forcibly imprisoned because of her Bulgarian citizenship (and associated self-identity). Mr. Dimitrov even offered to take her place in prison. Her allies within Macedonia, particularly in the RADKO organization (named after the late Nazi-sympathizer Vancho "Radko" Mihailov), repeated these claims. Earlier this summer, Macedonia's former Health Minister, Vlado Dimov, was arrested in Poland and freed only after Bulgarian authorities intervened to "assist one of their citizens." Mr. Dimov remains a wanted felon in Macedonia for his role in a massive corruption scandal.

In both these cases, the offending party retained their Macedonian citizenship and thereby remained subject to Macedonian law. Consular precedent allows sovereign states to apply their own laws within their respective borders and only accredited diplomats may claim immunity from prosecution. All others must obey the laws of the country in which they find themselves. For Bulgarian officials to now suggest their citizens in the Republic of Macedonia deserve either special "diplomatic" or "extraterritorial" immunity from local law in criminal cases certainly does not bode well, particularly given the stinging EU rebuke issued to Sofia precisely as a result of Bulgaria's rampant corruption and criminality.

Of equal concern, is Mr. Dimitrov's insistence that Bulgaria join Greece in blocking Macedonia's entry into the EU and NATO. Mr. Dimitrov's grounds for this strategy is the baseless charge that Macedonia does not respect the rights of its ethnic minorities. Normally, such an accusation would be grounds for a veto; however, Macedonia actually is the only state in the region where ethnic minorities are granted the same status as the majority demographic in the state. The 2001 Framework Agreement ended Macedonia's civil conflict and stipulated that Macedonia's state policy towards minorities would be among the most liberal in the region. In perhaps the cruelest irony, Macedonia registered and allowed the formation of the RADKO organization, whose sole purpose is to deny the existence of a Macedonian nationality and to promote the concept of a Greater Bulgaria. At the same time, a Macedonian political party seeking legal status in Bulgaria has repeatedly been denied permission to register, even after the Bulgarian State lost a series of lawsuits at the European Court of Human Rights. One could say that the Bulgarian pot is calling the Macedonian kettle black; actually Mr. Dimitrov has seen in the Macedonian kettle his very own reflection.

It is sad that Bulgarian officials continually use the "Macedonian question" to distract Bulgarian citizens from the difficulties they face and the difficulties those very same officials' policies have created with Brussels and their EU partners. None of this is coincidental - for decades, Bulgaria has nursed a sense of injured pride following repeated failed attempts to conquer Macedonia. In all probability, the prevailing motto in Sofia now reads, "What Athens began, we will end." The Republic of Macedonia has done what the international community has asked of it and we are confident that Balkan chauvinism, laced with scandal and masquerading as struggles for human rights certainly will deceive no one.

[I of Macedon]

It just goes to show as you pointed out TrueMacedonian, how labels on people change pending the circumstances, how many times throughout history has the naming of groups of people changed, whether it was themselves doing the labelling (for any number of reason) or by outsiders (again, for whatever reason)? I highly doubt the way people define themselves exclusively today would have remained status quo for 100’s if not 1000’s of years, that being said, what would have been the point considering the constant power shifting in the Balkans. The most important thing would have been survival of oneself, family and friends – there was no nation to defend (other than ones home or village or villages), thus all else was simply being either a slave to any given empire or providing some sort of service to the empire of the time.

Therefore when one considers the flimsy arguments of the Bulgarians or the Greeks when trying to challenge the Macedonian identity it simply bears no relevance since they fall in the same basket. That is when they are attacking the Macedonian identity using historical chauvinism (history that suits their ideals) they are inadvertently attacking their own, their just too blind to see it or they pretend to ignore it.

[TrueMacedonian]

In Krusevo after 1870, reports Ballas, mixed marriages of Bulgarian (villager)father and Greek (urbanite)mother produced (male) offspring who "assert most fanatically of themselves that they are truly Bulgarian- Kurios Voulgaroi

.

The Past In Question by Keith Brown page 88.

[TrueMacedonian]

Contemporary journalists idea of what's happening in Macedonia from 1918 (as already posted on the "Who are the Slavs" topic)


page 1076







And this neatly falls into place with what Victor Roudometof said;

[Soldier of Macedon]

Good stuff as usual TM, thanks for those texts. There is now a mass of information to disprove Greek lies against the Macedonian population thanks to people like yourself.

[Bill77]

Good stuff as usual TM, thanks for those texts. There is now a mass of information to disprove Greek lies against the Macedonian population thanks to people like yourself.

All of you guys are Gems. i am so proud of all of yous and proud to be Macedonian. Thank god yous are one of us.