It`s useless, Greeks will never learn...

[fyrOM]

Having read my last comment I came to realise someone might say you think you are so smart OziMak but do you realise if Europe crumbles it will affect Macedonia. My reply would be most of Europe is based on secondary or tertiary industries while Macedonia is based mainly on primary industry. In an economic crumble lets say we are good at growing stuff and Macedonians can survive on flame roasted capsicums beans and cabbage rolls for ever. We still eat this stuff even in the diaspora because we love it. So lets see who survives. The Macedonians have faced unimaginable extreme hardships and we are still here today.
Go graf so peceni piperki!

[Onur]

The Greeks and the Macedonians could have easily been friends. Instead the west has manipulated the Greeks into a fear frenzy where they cannot accept anyone not from the west leading to their ingrained racism...

The Greeks could have turned out to be different people but after so long of manipulation their racism is so ingrained I doubt they will ever change unless they are made to capitulate.

I fully agree about your views on western powers. We share exact same opinion on this with you.

Also i think same about Greeks and Turks too. You know, about %40 of Greeks are Anatolian immigrants. I know that even now, some of them teach Turkish to their grandchildren and they see Anatolia as their homeland. We were friends for centuries and we could easily be friends now too but unfortunately i don't think its possible anymore unless if it would be political and educational revolution in Greece.

[fatso]

I fully agree about your views on western powers. We share exact same opinion on this with you.

Also i think same about Greeks and Turks too. You know, about %40 of Greeks are Anatolian immigrants. I know that even now, some of them teach Turkish to their grandchildren and they see Anatolia as their homeland. We were friends for centuries and we could easily be friends now too but unfortunately i don't think its possible anymore unless if it would be political and educational revolution in Greece.

Onur, I'm not sure about Greek parents teaching their children Turkish....never heard of any. How can you forget this below...



On August 17, 1999 at 3:04 AM, Turkey experienced a massive earthquake centered around the Gölcük and Arifiye areas in Adapazarı. The most severely affected area was the industrial city of İzmit. The İzmit earthquake registered 7.4 on the Richter scale and lasted for 45 seconds. A second earthquake hit İzmit on August 22, 1999. The official number of casualties was about 17,000, although real numbers are thought to be above 35,000; 300,000 people were left homeless, while the financial cost of the earthquake is estimated at about 3 billion dollars.[1] Turkey's largest city, Istanbul, was also affected with many buildings damaged and deaths amounting to dozens of people. The rupture passed through major cities that are among the most industrialized and urban areas of the country, including oil refineries, several car companies and the navy headquarters and arsenal in Gölcük thus increasing the severity of the life and property loss.
[edit] Greek reaction and management of the aid

The main characteristic of this particular human crisis was the difficulty of the Turkish authorities to apply any rational planning because of the magnitude of the disaster, and the fact that the majority of the Greek initiatives were undertaken not only by the government, but mainly and most importantly by local authorities, NGOs and individuals.[2]

GREECE WAS THE FIRST FOREIGN COUNTRY TO PLEDGE AID AND SUPPORT TO TURKEY. Within hours of the earthquake, the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs had contacted their counterparts in Turkey, and the minister sent his personal envoys in Turkey. On August 17, 1999 and on November 13, 1999 the Greek Ministry of Public Order sent in a rescue team of 24 people and 2 trained rescue dogs. The Ministry also sent fire extinguishing planes to help with putting out the fire in the Tupras refinery.[3] The Secretariat of Civil Protections (working under the auspices of the Greek Ministry of Interior Affairs) had previously sent a fully equipped medical team of 11 people, 4 of which were doctors as well as tents, ambulances, medicine, water, clothes, foods and blankets. The Greek Ministry of Defence readied a C-130 plane for transportation of the Greek rescue team (along with the equipment and the medicine). On August 18, 1999 the Ministry of Health set up three units for blood donations. The same day aid was sent by the National and Kapodistrian University of Athens. On August 19, 1999 the Greek Ministry of Foreign Affairs set up three receiving stations in Athens, Thessaloniki and Komotini, whose purpose was the gathering of the citizens' spontaneous help. Since August 19, the hospitals of Komotini and Xanthi set up their own units for blood donations, and the Church of Greece initiated a fund raiser

[Makedonetz]

Oh man i WISH these greeks tried to fuck with turkey, they would get their asses handed to them, that last picture of that greek id like to knock his fucking teeth in.

[Onur]

Onur, I'm not sure about Greek parents teaching their children Turkish....never heard of any.

You think that it`s something to be express openly in Greece?

1000s of Greeks from Greece, USA and Europe comes to Izmir every summer and they walk around the streets and old houses where their grandparents lived. you know what, most of them can speak Turkish, good or bad but they can speak. I saw this personally several times myself. Check youtube as well, there are 1000s of videos of Greeks singing in Turkish.



Also most Greeks who lives in islands comes to Turkish coast towns to do their weekly shopping in pazar/bazaars because Turkey is much cheaper. All of them can speak Turkish as well. Again i saw this with my own eyes in Cesme, Bodrum, Datca, Kusadasi.


I asked several Greeks myself because i was shocked too when i heard them speaking Turkish for the first time. All of them told me that their grandparents teach them and to their family when they were little kids. It`s unbelievable tough because speaking Turkish was forbidden in Greece `till 1950s.

[Makedonetz]

Onur its something in life as an acomplisment to learn another language as it opens the mind to different cultures and such which can come in handy for some people. But sometimes a country with agenda's can cause havoc like greece, i respect their culture and the history but the people who showcase their culture i dont respect as they dont show us any back.

[Silver]

Bravo OziMak, and thank you for your writing in this thread. Ti imash golemo certce and you are absolutely correct in your assesments!

It's important for all of us to have compassion. However, Macedonians embody generations of suffering heaped upon us through dastard foreign interests and their proxies. At a time so close to the year 2013 and after 100 years of their 'Greek' lajna we need to open a beer, sit back and enjoy watching the collapse before those same foreign interests and hellass enter into obscurity. Macedonia has all the food, vino and luta rikija to take our people into the next ice age and behond as long as this world keeps turning.

Pozdrav

[Risto the Great]

Macedonia has all the food, vino and luta rikija to take our people into the next ice age and behond as long as this world keeps turning.

Pozdrav

But they will always be pining for the exotic lifestyles of their "rich" Macedonian rodnina in the Diaspora who work like dogs so they can show off in Macedonia once every 10 years.

[fyrOM]

RTG the idea was in an economic crumble Macedonia will be able to survive better that many Europeans but also macedonia so much potential to excel its not funny but by the look of things foreign interests are staking their claims bit by bit whether it is in banking energy transport and now also food stuffs.

Their pays may look tiny but pay should always be considered with cost of living to gauge its relative worth. An old saying since as far back as I can remember is it would be great to earn the money in Australia and spend it in Macedonia. I think one Macedonian I spoke with there put there perspective clearly that we Australians are economic business imbeciles who look for the closest factory and the heaviest plug to make more money while he (read many like him) would be a millionaire within a year. I dare think it would involve a few shady interests but as he put it who cares no one is doing you any favors snajdise.

[Makedonec]

Turks don't hate them because they know they are just as Turkish as them, Look at the guy in the picture for example.

[indigen]

Originally Posted by indigen View Post
Onur, IMO, the Kurdish people should be accorded the right to self determination and Turkey should stop undermining the drive for full sovereignty of the Kurdish state in Iraq.

Also remember that Turkey, like our other great "friends" USA and Bulgaria, supported the imposition and implementation of the 2001 infamous "Ramkoven dogovor" (aka "Framework Agreement") that turned Macedonia from a Macedonian state into a multi multi-ethnic non-Macedonian, an experimental apartheid system that leads to the demise of the Macedonian identity. Now Turkey, Bulgaria and USA should PRACTICE WHAT THEY PREACH and implement the same arrangement in their countries. Considering the huge Kurdish population in Turkey, I am sure Turks would "love" to have a system similar to the one they pressured Macedonians to accept. What do you say to that, Onur?

Lastly, the 2008 NATO recommendation for Macedonia to negotiate, read change its name, a "mutually" acceptable state name with Greece was in fact a unanimous decision, which means ALL our so called "friends" are supporting and pressing for a name change. EU and US/NATO are the ones pressing Macedonians and using Greece as the excuse to deconstruct and exterminate our Macedonian identity.

Indigen, Turkey officially signed "Self-determination policy" at 2002 or 2003 but in my opinion, its just another plot of great powers which suits their 1500 year old policy of "divide & concur". First, they make you accept self determination policy, then they encourage different ethnicity to uprising against their government while on the other hand, none of great powers signs self determination policy themselves.

Turkey is almost on par with Greece vis-a-vis Macedonians when it comes Kurdish rights in Turkey. I can not support such suppression of any people. Human_rights_of_Kurdish_people_in_Turkey

Also you are generalizing NATO and EU too much. Things doesn't work like you describe here. NATO is fully controlled by USA and England. They put their own arguments and demands on the table and other countries just signs the papers. If you deny, they convince you to accept their demands in one or other way. I can say same for EU. You know EU is controlled by France and Germany and other members just approves them most of the times.

I don't BUY YOUR EXCUSES here, Onur! When Turkish national interests are at stake Turkey sure knows how to say no, you have said so yourself! :-)

Turkey "supports" Ramkovist Macedonia (multi multi-ethnic non-Macedonian state) and NOT Macedonian Macedonia! I stand by what I said above.

So, blaming Turkey or any other member for NATO`s decisions or blaming Poland for EU`s decisions is not that fair nor logical.

It sure is LOGICAL to me! Why not let the Greeks or the Cypriots make the block so that we may know where the fault lies - straight and clear - instead of covering their arse with "solidarity" blocks?

Who told you that there are 50 million Kurds??? There are about 8 million Kurds in Turkey which equals to %10 of Turkey`s population. If you count the Kurds in Iraq, Iran and Syria, there are around 14-15 million Kurds in this territory. This is also the result of their hard work of last 15 years to increase their population. There was only 2 million Kurds in Turkey 15 years ago but most Kurdish women gives birth to at least 8-9 children for 15 years to increase their population as many as possible. They are getting paid by northern Iraq Kurdish authority for every children. Since it would be immoral to prevent them to give birth, we just don't know how to stop them. Ofc they don't care about their children`s future either. They just give birth and throw these children at the streets or expect Turkish government to take care of them. They are just blinded by pro-Kurdistan activists who got supported by CIA. But don't get me wrong, in Turkey, maybe only 3 of 10 Kurds supports all this non-sense. Most of them are still reasonable and supports Turkish government but in Iraq and Iran, all Kurds supports USA and works under the command of CIA agents.

Like you said, Kurds in this area are just peons of great powers. They used them against Saddam`s Iraq, Turkey and Iran.

Things doesn't work with people`s wishes and dreams RTG. There wasn't any Kurdish state existed in the world since the beginning of human history and its not possible either. Pro-Kurdistan terrorists wants eastern Anatolia, northern Iran, northern Iraq and some part of Syria. They are in delusion of creating some big Kurdish state. Ofc if this happens, they will be under control of great powers. So, its like 2nd Israel on the ass of Iran. Turkey never prefers to this stupid idea to become reality either. It`s simply not possible at all.

Now, try to think what Iran does if USA creates 2nd Israel on his ass???? Also, did you know that there are 20 million Shia sect community living in south of Iraq who totally supports Iran??? Also the most powerful Shia sect religious leader living in Iraq and he is also the leader of Shia community there. If Kurds creates Kurdistan at north, then 20 million Shia Muslims prefers to be part of Iran. This can cause WW-3 if great powers and Kurdish terrorists tries to achieve that. If not, then Iran government kills all Kurds there in 3 days with chemical weapons or something.

Currently Iraq is ruled by Kurds since USA occupation. They simply ignore pro-Iran Shia and Sunni Arab community and let the small minority of Kurds stay as authority in there. Ofc Kurds are ruled by CIA, non-other. I am also %100 sure that when USA leaves Iraq, all Sunni Arabs and Shia majority will kill all the Kurds in there as a revenge for their betrayal and cooperation with the USA. Kurds know this very well, thats why they are trying to form Kurdistan before USA leaves Iraq. Their problem is, Turkey and especially Iran never allows an Independent Kurdistan there. So, its a complete mess, thanks to great powers ofc.

A lot of Turkish anti-Kurdish racist and chauvinist venom coming out here, Onur!

You can check the following and get some more balanced view of the Kurdish state of affairs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

[Onur]

A lot of Turkish anti-Kurdish racist and chauvinist venom coming out here, Onur?

You can check the following and get some more balanced view of the Kurdish state of affairs: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_people

It`s obvious that you don't know anything about the issues in the middle-east. I just pointed the fact. No one in this region can accept creation of 2nd Israel here. Especially Iran never accepts western power`s puppet fake state called Kurdistan. This definitely causes USA-IRAN war.

Over 1 million people died in Iraq since USA occupation and Iraqi Kurds involved in this, everyone in this region knows this. 20 million Shia Iraqi awaits right time for their revenge. If you think you know everything from wikipedia, go explain your free-Kurdistan idea to them, not to me.

You are just being naive and ignorant about the situation in middle-east and don't try to lecture me about my own country with your wikipedia links. I think you forgot that i am living in Turkey and i know whats going on here at first hand unlike you.

[indigen]

It`s obvious that you don't know anything about the issues in the middle-east. I just pointed the fact. No one in this region can accept creation of 2nd Israel here. Especially Iran never accepts western power`s puppet fake state called Kurdistan. This definitely causes USA-IRAN war.

I know enough to see through your pretensions about "principles of justice, human rights and self-determination", and you are making yourself more obvious by the minute! :-)

Kurds are INDIGENOUS to the land and have been struggling for a state since the fall of OTTOMAN empire whilst the Jewish state was created with British imperialist intervention (later maintained and expanded by USA financial, military and political support) that allowed a huge influx of European Jewish settlers to come into Palestine and appropriate the land of the INDIGENOUS Palestinians. Thus the comparison of Zionist Israel - which equates to a settler colonial state - propped up by European and USA imperialism at one stage or another and indigenous Kurds struggling for their own self-determination that have a strategic alliance, out of the necessity for survival, with USA imperialism is like comparing apples to oranges.

Over 1 million people died in Iraq since USA occupation and Iraqi Kurds involved in this, everyone in this region knows this. 20 million Shia Iraqi awaits right time for their revenge. If you think you know everything from wikipedia, go explain your free-Kurdistan idea to them, not to me.

Actually, there were hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children dying every year prior the invasion caused by (UN) sanctions imposed at the behest of USA and the European associates, which, IMO, is a crime against humanity that has been swept under the carpet.

You are just being naive and ignorant about the situation in middle-east and don't try to lecture me about my own country with your wikipedia links. I think you forgot that i am living in Turkey and i know whats going on here at first hand unlike you.

I am not trying to lecture you but I know enough about the Kurds to see through your racism and chauvinism! Furthermore, this is a Macedonian forum that values itself on the motto of presenting TRUTH and not a venue for cheap Turkish nationalism and rude arrogance.

As for Wikipedia, it can be quite unreliable but I thought that info on the Kurds is quite reasonable on balance and provides links for source of information. I could look for Kurdish sources that you may find even more objectionable but it is not my job to worry too much about the Kurdish struggle when we Macedonians are in dire straits of our own. Secondly, over the years I have had opportunities to meet Kurdish activists from all parts of Kurdish homelands and I am not as "ignorant" as a Turkish national-chauvinist might imagine or would like to think.

Lastly, you avoid to answer (or childishly dismiss) Turkey's support for anti-Macedonian "IC" projects that I listed. You appear to want to ignore the inescapable evidence for Turkish anti-Macedonian collusion in Framework Agreement imposition and implementation and current pressure to change the name of the state, which automatically means change of identity and equates to assisted self-genocide! With friends like that, who needs enemies?

[Onur]

This was on the news today;

Former Roj TV director admits receiving funding from terrorist PKK

Manouchehr Zonoozi, a former director of Roj TV, has admitted that financial assistance flows to the television station from the terrorist Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), in a recent interview with Berlingske Tinende, a Danish daily.

Turkey says Roj TV is a mouthpiece for the outlawed PKK. The station continues to broadcast with a Danish license.

“I served as the Roj TV director for 10 years. I would be the first to be imprisoned [for links to a terrorist organization]. I am not telling all this for personal interests. I continue to receive death threats. I told police several times that I’d like to testify against Roj TV. But they ignored my calls. I am tired of waiting. I cannot stand the lies about Roj TV,” Zonoozi stated.

Berlingske Tidende also published photos of top officials from Roj TV on a secret visit to PKK training camps. In the photos, Zonoozi is seen side-by-side with Murat Karayılan, the leader of the PKK. Since the interview, Danish police have increased security around Zonoozi, fearing a violent response from the terrorist organization.




The former director also said he established a publishing house in Denmark to have the voice of Kurds heard in the country, but lost confidence in the “real administrators” of Roj TV.

“I did not know about the links between Roj TV and the PKK when I starting serving as the station’s director. But I started witnessing financial aid flowing to the station from the PKK between 2005 and 2006. The station’s bank account showed that the aid was really substantial. At the beginning, I thought it was financial aid coming from ordinary Kurds and it had nothing to do with the PKK. But when I visited a PKK training camp in Arbil, I learned that the aid was coming from the PKK. I should not have been so unwise to believe that 16 million euros would come from the Kurdish public,” Zonoozi remarked.

Asked about the PKK’s impact on Roj TV broadcasts, Zonoozi said many correspondents at the station are trained at PKK camps.

“There are correspondents at PKK training camps, and they are in direct contact with the organization’s high-level figures. They are trained there. If you visit Roj TV studios in Belgium, you would see many workers whose legs and arms were amputated after clashes,” he added.

http://www.sabahenglish.com/general/9953.html

ROJ tv in Denmark is used by PKK terrorists to purify their drug money but now we learned that its also used as a rehabilitation center for injured terrorists. PKK is the main distributor of Afghanistan heroin to the Europe. It`s a billion dollar worth business. Thats how they can fund their terrorist acts vs Turkey for 20 years. Ofc few European countries like Denmark, Greece, Belgium directly helps them as well.

This former head director of Danish PKK tv channel also says that when he gone to Northern Iraq at 2004, he saw about 3000 child soldiers there with youngest ones being 8-9 years old getting trained wit AK-47s and . He says that he gave these photos and his testimony to Danish police over a year ago but they didn't do anything at all, so thats why he is now speaking to Danish media.

- Child soldiers are often the easiest to persuade to do the dirty work such as to walk through minefields, and they learn quickly. We have cases of children aged 10-11 years who can handle an AK-47. But children are also used for other things like kitchen and sex services, he says.

- In a refugee camp in Iraq, I met a Syrian-Kurdish family. They looked for their daughter who had fled to the PKK. But PKK would not allow her back into the family. It made me really sad, "says Manouchehr Zonoozi.

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&sl=da&tl=en&u=http://www.berlingske.dk/berlingske-undersoeger/tv-chef-hilste-paa-boernesoldater-fra-terrorgruppe&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&twu=1&usg=ALkJrhitqcAW1ZKFgWZONV9yDh08wvoYNA

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.berlingske.dk%2Fberlingske-undersoeger%2Fpoliti-sylter-terrorbeviser-mod-roj-tv&sl=da&tl=en

PKK training camps in Erbil, Northern Iraq, 2004;




Looks like Danish police kept these photos hidden for a year and Ofc we see that UNICEF, EU and USA are perfectly fine with 8-9 year old kidnapped Kurdish kids getting trained in PKK camps, learning how to use AK-47 and suicide bombing. Also they don't care about ~3000 kids in northern Iraq getting thrown into mining fields or sexually abused by PKK terrorists. If its against Turkey and Iran, they are OK with it since who cares about the lives of Iraqi or Syrian Kurdish kids, right?

I am not trying to lecture you but I know enough about the Kurds to see through your racism and chauvinism! Furthermore, this is a Macedonian forum that values itself on the motto of presenting TRUTH and not a venue for cheap Turkish nationalism and rude arrogance.

I REPEAT, You think you know everything but you don't know SHIT about Kurds, PKK, Iraq or middle-east. Dont even try to accuse me with racism again. If there is an arrogant person here, it is only you and worse, you are being arrogant on top of your ignorance about this issue. You continue to read Wikipedia and think that you know everything but better keep it for yourself, ok? Dont try to sell me your Wikipedia knowledge about my own country again.

[indigen]

I REPEAT, You think you know everything but you don't know SHIT about Kurds, PKK, Iraq or middle-east. Dont even try to accuse me with racism again. If there is an arrogant person here, it is only you and worse you are being arrogant on top of your ignorance about this issue. You continue to read Wikipedia and think that you know everything but better keep it for yourself, ok? Dont try to sell me your Wikipedia knowledge about my own country again.

I never said I know everything and your are a WANKER, IMO, in posting with such arrogance. Go and take a chill pill! Remember that I have ALSO said that I have met and discussed with Kurdish activists from ALL parts of the Kurdish homeland in the past and that I do not wish to trouble myself with trying to source Kurdish info directly from Kurdish sources because it is not my priority to do so.

As for the Kurds, I said all I wanted to say about that in my previous posts and I don't wish to have any further discussions with you or anybody else on MTO on this topic. MTO should be a focus for Macedonian discussions, in the main! Yes, I DO believe you and, in the main, most Turks are racist and chauvinist towards Kurds and not much different from the way Greeks are towards Macedonians! Take that any way you like and do not bother me again!