Ancient Gods, Myths & Descent

[Carlin]

From various sources online. Most of these do not necessarily apply to this topic: "Origin of Macedonian Kings".

Strabo, Geography
Book VII, Chapter 7

"And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks; indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by barbarians - Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes - Epirotic tribes."

Note the clear statement that Macedonia is held by the Thracians; that is, Thracians formed the ethnic majority in Macedonia. Thracians also held "certain parts of Thessaly".
Alexander's mother Olympias was a Molossian.

Titus Livius, 'Rome and the Mediterranean'

Book XXXI, page 23, Penguin Classics edition: "...and yet it had a claim to fame almost greater, because of the ancient renown of the Macedonian nation, and the vast extent of their empire, which gave them possession, by conquest, of large tracts of Europe, and the greater part of Asia."

Book XXXII (XXXII.23, pg. 93): "...there was no doubt in their minds that they would easily dislodge the Macedonians and the Greeks."

Book XXXII.34, pg. 101: "Phaeneas, chief magistrate of the Aetolians, made substantially the same demands as the Romans: the withdrawal of the Macedonians from Greece."

Book XXXII.34, pg. 101: "Then he (Philip) began to complain that the Aetolians, like the Romans, were telling him to withdraw from Greece, although they were unable to tell him what were the boundaries of Greece."

As a king of Greek ethnic origin, Philip should be well aware of the boundaries of Greece.

Book XXXVI.17, pg. 253: "There, as you well know, they were Macedonians, Thracians, and Illyrians - all very warlike races: here you have Syrians and Asiatic Greeks, the most worthless types of men, born for slavery."

Others, various authors:

"Such were the activities of the Romans and of Philip on land during that summer. At the beginning of the same summer, the fleet, commanded by the legate Lucius Apustius, left Corcyra, rounded Cape Malea, and joined King Attalus of Scyllaeum, in the region of Hermoine. Hitherto the resentment of the Athenian community against Philip had been kept in check by fear; but now, with the hope of assistance ready at hand, they gave free rein to their anger. There is never any lack at Athenian tongues ready and willing to stir up the passion of the common people; this kind of oratory is nurtured by the applause of the mob in all free communities; but this is especially true of Athens, where eloquence has the greatest influence. The popular assembly immediately carried a proposal that all statues of Philip and all portraits of him, with their inscriptions, and also those of his ancestors of either sex, should be removed and destroyed; that all feast-days, rites, and priesthoods instituted in honour of Philip or his ancestors should be deprived of sanctity; that even the sites of any memorials or inscriptions in his honour should be held accursed, and that it should not be lawful thereafter to decide to set up or dedicate on those sites any of those things which might lawfully be set up or dedicated on an undefiled site; that whenever the priests of the people offered prayer on behalf of the Athenian people and their allies, their armies and navies, they should on every occasion HEAP CURSES and execrations on Philip, his family and his realm, his forces on land and sea, AND THE WHOLE RACE AND NAME OF THE MACEDONIANS."

Pausanias

"Leosthenes at the head of the Athenians and the united Greeks defeated the Macedonians in Boeotia and again outside Thermopylae forced them into Lamia" [1.1.3].

"I have already said in my history of Attica that the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks" [9.6.5].

"After the death of Alexander, when the Greeks had raised a second war against the Macedonians, the Messenians took part, as I have shown earlier in my account of Attica" [4.28.3].

"When Philip the son of Amyntas would not let Greece alone, the Eleans, weakened by civil strife, joined the Macedonian alliance, but they could not bring themselves to fight against the Greeks at Chaeronea. They joined Philip's attack on the Lacedaemonians because of their old hatred of that people, but on the death of Alexander they fought on the side of the Greeks against Antipater and the Macedonians" [5.4.9].

"When Philip, the son of Demetrius, reached men's estate, and Antigonus without reluctance handed over the sovereignty of the Macedonians, he struck fear into the hearts of all the Greeks. He copied Philip, the son of Amyntas" [7.7.5].

Thrasymachus

"Shall we being Greeks, be slaves to Archelaus, a barbarian?"

This line the Greek Thrasymachus attributed to the Macedonian king Archelaus who occupied Greek land with his Macedonian army.

[DraganOfStip]

But still,Greeks use the claim that the ancestors of the Macedonians actually came from Argos in Pelloponese (the three brothers and all) and settled in Argos in Kostur.Is there any script to support this or is it just another part of the myth?

[Soldier of Macedon]

Dragan, these type of discussions can go on forever, but ultimately, each side of the argument needs to come to some sort of conclusion. One relies on myth while the other relies on logic.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Appian (2nd Century AD)

http://www.livius.org/ap-ark/appian/appian_syriaca_13.html#%5B%A762%5D

[§63] Thus Seleucus died at the age of seventy-three, having reigned forty-two years. It seems to me that the oracle hit the mark in his case when it said to him, "Do not hurry back to Europe; Asia will be much better for you," for Lysimacheia is in Europe, and he then crossed over to Europe for the first time after leaving it with the army of Alexander. It is said also that once when he consulted an oracle in reference to his own death he received this answer:

If you keep away from Argos you will reach your allotted year, but if you approach that place you will die before your time.

There is an Argos in Peloponnese, another in Amphilochia, another in Orestea (whence come the Macedonian Argeadae)

[TojSum]

But still,Greeks use the claim that the ancestors of the Macedonians actually came from Argos in Pelloponese (the three brothers and all) and settled in Argos in Kostur.Is there any script to support this or is it just another part of the myth?

Dragan, SoM give excellent source about this. Here is another one which in my opinion is also an excellent source:

The Geography
of
Strabo
published in Vol. III
of the Loeb Classical Library edition,
1924

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7Fragments*.html

Strabo
Geography
p321 Book VII, Fragments

Fragment 11:

What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains. And there was also a city Emathia close to the sea. Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said,492 along with Botton as chieftain. As for the Thracians, p331the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. But of all these tribes the Argeadae,493 as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.

The number 493 near word Argeadae is The Editor's Notes (You can find them below the text on the same link):

493 The name appears to have been derived from the Macedonian Argos, i.e. Argos Oresticum (7.7.8).

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks TojSum, that is a good source.

[Soldier of Macedon]

With the Thracian element in mind, which was most significant in the make-up of Macedonian ethnogenesis, one of the most important gods would be Sabazios, also worshipped by those in Thrace proper and the Brygians (later known as Phrygians in Asia Minor after many of them migrated from Macedonia). Sabazios was often depicted on horseback, and known as the 'sky' or 'father' god. The original homeland of Sabazios was in the Macedonian-Thracian region.

Sabazios has often been identified with Dionysus, the god of wine. Dionysus is also of Thracian origin. Thracians are said to have believed that their kings were incarnations of Dionysus. Macedonians are also known to have worshipped Dionysus. An obscure character known as Zagreus was also identified with Dionysus. Zagreus was worshipped by followers of Orphism.

The name of Dionysus' mother was Semele, a mortal woman said to have been married to Zeus. Her name comes from the Indo-European word for 'earth'.

The mythical Brygian (Phrygian) king named Gordias also originated from Macedonia. The cities named Gordynia in Macedonia and Gordium in Asia Minor were based on him. The name comes from the Indo-European word for 'enclose'.

The famous Orpheus, who was known for his music and poetry, was from Olympus and also of Thracian origin. His mother was said to be the daughter of Pierus, son of the mythical figure known as Macedon (Makedon), who gave his name to the region known as Macedonia.

There are several different versions on the origin of Macedon. The first one was cited by Hesiod, who claimed that he was the son of Zeus and Thyia, and brother of Magnes. A Macedonian view was recorded by historian Marsyas of Pella, who wrote "Makedon son of Zeus and Thyia, conquered the land then belonging to Thrace and he called it Macedonia after his name. He married a local woman and got two sons, Pierus and Amathus; two cities, Pieria and Amathia in Macedonia were founded or named after them" (Frg 13 - Μακεδών ὁ Διὸς καὶ Αἰθρίας κατασχὼν τὴν χώραν οὖσαν Θρᾴκης ἀφ' ἑαυτοῦ Μακεδονίαν προσηγόρευσεν: γήμας δὲ μίαν τῶν ἐγχωρίων τεκνοῦται δύο παῖδας Πίερον καὶ Ἄμαθον, ἀφ' ὧν δύο πόλεις Πιερία καὶ Ἀμαθία ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ).

In Delphic tradition, Thyia, the mother of Macedon, was an eponym naiad of the Thyiades, which was an alternative name of the Maenads in the cult of Dionysus. The Maenads were originally Thracian female followers of Dionysus.

Ares was also originally a Thracian god.

[Soldier of Macedon]

This may have been previously posted elsewhere, but either way, it is from 2nd century writer Appian, who makes reference to theories during his time about the mythical origins of the Illyrians and Celts.

The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube. This is the length of the country. Its breadth is from Macedonia and the mountains of Thrace to Pannonia and the Adriatic and the foothills of the Alps. Its breadth is five days' journey and its length thirty - so the Greek writers say. The Romans measured the country and found its length to be upward of 1,000 kilometers and its width about 220.

They say that the country received its name from Illyrius, the son of Polyphemus; for the cyclops Polyphemus and his wife, Galatea, had three sons, Celtus, Illyrius, and Galas, all of whom migrated from Sicily; and the nations called Celts, Illyrians, and Galatians took their origin from them. Among the many myths prevailing among many peoples this seems to me the most plausible.

Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived. But I will leave these matters to antiquarians.

Again, another myth connecting ancient peoples to ancient gods, not unlike what had happened with the Macedonians.

Here is one version on the origins of Scythian kings cited by Herodotus (4.8-10):

Heracles, driving the cattle of Geryones, came to this land, which was then desolate, but is now inhabited by the Scythians. Geryones lived west of the Pontus….Heracles came from there to the country now called Scythia where……he found in a cave a creature of double form that was half maiden and half serpent; above the buttocks she was a woman, below them a snake. When he saw her he was astonished, and asked her if she had seen his mares straying; she said that she had them, and would not return them to him before he had intercourse with her; Heracles did, in hope of this reward……when the sons born to her were grown men, she gave them names, calling one of them Agathyrsus and the next Gelonus and the youngest Scythes…….Two of her sons, Agathyrsus and Gelonus, were cast out by their mother and left the country, unable to fulfill the requirements set; but Scythes, the youngest, fulfilled them and so stayed in the land. [3] From Scythes son of Heracles comes the whole line of the kings of Scythia; and it is because of the vessel that the Scythians carry vessels on their belts to this day. This alone his mother did for Scythes. This is what the Greek dwellers in Pontus say.

Here is a version on Persian origins by Herodotus ((7.150):

Such is the Argives' account of this matter, but there is another story told in Hellas, namely that before Xerxes set forth on his march against Hellas, he sent a herald to Argos, who said on his coming (so the story goes), “Men of Argos, this is the message to you from King Xerxes. Perses our forefather had, as we believe, Perseus son of Danae for his father, and Andromeda daughter of Cepheus for his mother; if that is so, then we are descended from your nation. In all right and reason we should therefore neither march against the land of our forefathers, nor should you become our enemies by aiding others or do anything but abide by yourselves in peace. If all goes as I desire, I will hold none in higher esteem than you.” The Argives were strongly moved when they heard this, and although they made no promise immediately and demanded no share, they later, when the Greeks were trying to obtain their support, did make the claim, because they knew that the Lacedaemonians would refuse to grant it, and that they would thus have an excuse for taking no part in the war.

If all of the above were to be taken at face value rather than the myths that they really are, then several European and Asian peoples and monarchs would be descended from Zeus, Poseidon and their Titan ancestors. All one big happy family. Even though such mythical figures originated in a variety of cultures, some people with more established literary traditions tended to 'ethnocise' or seemingly patent them. At the end of the day, a myth is just that, a myth. Some people used these myths to their advantage by establishing or accepting a lineage, others were gullible enough to believe them.

[Philosopher]

This may have been previously posted elsewhere, but either way, it is from 2nd century write Appian, who makes reference to theories during his time about the mythical origins of the Illyrians and Celts.

Again, another myth connecting ancient peoples to ancient gods, not unlike what had happened with the Macedonians.

Here is one version on the origins of Scythian kings cited by Herodotus (4.8-10):

Here is a version on Persian origins by Herodotus ((7.150):

If all of the above were to be taken at face value rather than the myths that they really are, then several European and Asian peoples and monarchs would be descended from Zeus, Poseidon and their Titan ancestors. All one big happy family. Even though such mythical figures originated in a variety of cultures, some people with more established literary traditions tended to 'ethnocise' or seemingly patent them. At the end of the day, a myth is just that, a myth. Some people used these myths to their advantage by establishing or accepting a lineage, others were gullible enough to believe them.

Valid points.

Greeks love to quote Greek writers and Greek mythology to establish Hellenic ancestry, but face value, at myth value, it poses more problems than answers.

[Stevce]

Of the gods they worship only Ares and Dionysus and Artemis. Their kings, however, apart from the rest of the people, worship Hermes more than all gods, and swear by him alone; and they say that they are descended from Hermes.” This is how Herodotus describes the customs of the Thracians. Naturally, here we have the typical misunderstanding of a Greek trying to refer to foreign deities by using the names of the gods he worships. The truth of the matter is that things were a bit more complicated:

The main deity of the Thracians was a maternal goddess who manifested herself in the mountains and who was associated by the Greeks with the Great Goddess, hence Artemis. She bore a son, a stone god who threw thunder and lightning and who was to be worshipped later as Sabazios in orgiastic rites. Sabazios had two faces. On the one hand, he was a dark god with a sinister appearance, but on the other hand he granted his followers exemption from any personal guilt. That was perhaps the reason why the Greeks recognized Dionysus in him.
In a sacred wedding, mother and son generated their very first believer, Rhesus, who is likewise referred to as Orpheus of the north. He acted as priest of Dionysus in the Pangaion Hills and was identified with Ares, as we know from Euripides who dedicated a tragedy to him.
Now, the only one still missing is Hermes; Herodotus uses that name to refer to Anax, the first mythical priest of the Thracians, founder of all Thracian royal dynasties, who traced her privilege of being the only initiates into the mystery cult of Sabazios back to him.

[Stevce]

Alternatively these Greek name for the god's are actually Eqyptian.

http://www.jstor.org/stable/264098?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

[Stevce]

If this statements are true I think all the museums in Macedonia and books should be using the correct names for these god's.
According to Hesychius' Glossary, Θαῦλος (Thaulos) was the ancient Macedonian god of war, and was later equated with Ares. The Greek god Ἄρης (Ares) is actually of Thracian origin.
According to Hesychius, Δάρρων was a Macedonian god of healing. His name derives from the Macedonian word for giving (Δάρ-) because he is said to give health to those who prayed to him (ώ ύπέρ τών νοσούντων εύχονται).
Dionysus, the god of wine, grape harvest, and pleasure was originally of Thracian origin (Herodotus, History, 2:49, 52, 143-146). In ancient Macedonia, he was a very important figure in the Macedonian pantheon. According to Heschiyus, he was named Λειβηνος/Leivinos in Macedonian.
Ancient Macedonian God-names
According to ancient sources, the Macedonians worshiped a wide variety of gods and goddesses, including Brygian, Thracian, Greek, and their own. Ancient Greek writers, however, would find Greek equivalents for every foreign god. For example, Arrian stated that the Indians worshiped Heracles and Dionysus.
As for the Macedonians, Heschiyus stated the Macedonian "version" of Athena was "Akrea"
According to Hesychius, the Macedonian version of Poseidon was Adonaios.
The Thraco-Macedonian origin of a modern holiday:
In the ancient Macedonian religion, the deity Xandos was associated with the beginning of the month of March. Little is known about the way that Xandos was worshipped, but many historians affirm that the modern celebration of Martinka is derived from the traditions of the Thracians and Macedonians. The Dacians, a Thracian people, tell us that the threads of the Martinki were spun by "Baba Dochia," the Dacian goddess of the Earth (lit. Grandma Dochia). Sources: Prof. Aleksander Fol, Prof. Tashko Belchev, Vanya Lozanova
The ancient Macedonian religion had many deities, some of which were only worshiped by individual Macedonian tribes. One of these was the river-god "Ϝόλγανος ('Volganos' since Greek did not have the letter "V")", worshiped in Imathia