A response from Vodenka

[Risto the Great]

Few have grasped the massive distinction between propagating our language in Greece versus what has happened with the Vlachs and Albanians. I have dealt with this matter in depth on my 5 visits to the region and I suspect most of you are relying on your proud patriotic hearts instead of realities tht you can't possibly seem to bear.

Good on you all. Macedonia for the (select) Macedonians. Quite frankly, with a hint of sarcasm, I would rather have a Grkoman than a SDSM voter right about now. At least there is more hope for them. Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

Bratot, you have suggested I am releasing new information in to the public arena about Vinozito's leader. Stiff shit. Everyone in Greece thinks it is the truth. Nothing new there. Let him come out and dispel any allegations. 10 years of almost nothing is not what I would define as a success. I met Pavle in Lerin. He went on about the significance of a radio station and how money needs to be raised. I asked him who would advertise on it (wondering about its long term viability) and he looked at me blankly. So we all put in 100,000 Euro and buy a few antennas and transmitters. Then wonder what the hell it achieved that can't be done from Bitola already.

All of you complaining live in the Diaspora. The freedom you enjoy makes you (and me) strong. Greece is no place of freedom. If you want more of the same, keep doing what you believe right now .... it clearly amounts to nothing.

[Risto the Great]

Tzole appears to support Vinozito but can't vote for them.
This is coming from an (apparent) patriot.

How will we entice people who know there is a distinction between Greeks and Macedonians but are less patriotic?

Wake up!

[Risto the Great]

Also Vodenka we must say that there is a number of people who wants to be Macedonians as the Macedonians who live in Repubika Macedonia.
But I strongly believe that Macedonian state must take some steps in order to make clear to the people that they will be there for them in every need.These steps must be in a way to hep us to integrate because of the assimilation and isolation.(Education-right to vote,etc).
Not just to use the term minority in use in the internal political arena.They must give priority' s to help us.We don't want money we need just a warm hug from the Macedonia(Da ne pregarni,da ne gusni).

When I said for Macedonia to show some love, the responses I got were more aligned with dropping an atomic bomb on Athens.

Tzole, imas pravo za tvoite misli. Dali mozis da mi kazis oti nemame poike lugje ko tebe vo Vinozito? Pishi po nashe, nogu milo mi je koga ke vidam moito (Lerinsko) dialekt.

[Daskalot]

Also Vodenka we must say that there is a number of people who wants to be Macedonians as the Macedonians who live in Repubika Macedonia.
But I strongly believe that Macedonian state must take some steps in order to make clear to the people that they will be there for them in every need.These steps must be in a way to hep us to integrate because of the assimilation and isolation.(Education-right to vote,etc).
Not just to use the term minority in use in the internal political arena.They must give priority' s to help us.We don't want money we need just a warm hug from the Macedonia(Da ne pregarni,da ne gusni).Every time I get in Macedonia I get to breath free.(Da disham sloboden veter)
But many times Macedonians officers or border officials are very rude with us.I think there is the problem the Macedonians must understand that we have suffer and we've been through fire and steel to remain Macedonians.
Majka Makedonia da ne pregarni.
There is only one way to get our freedom=fight,struggle with every thing,even with b.......
Thank you for your space.
Ako eden Makedonets saka da ga priblize Makedonia kon Grtsija ili kon Bugarija ili ko Srbija togas moze da se misli za dobar Grk ,srbin,Bugarin ane i za dobar Makedonec.

Welcome Tzole and I thank you for your opinion! It is very nice to hear these words spoken by a Macedonian from Greek annexed Macedonia! Bravo! Keep us updated on news about the Macedonians in Greece!!

[Daskalot]

Lets tell some truths here:
Vodenka the term minority is different as part as group who try to preserve our identity and through this term the state have the obligation to promote and help you to do.It is also true that we strange and for the Greeks and we are different from them and every one who try not to see this he lies to himself.
Personal I disagree with you on what the people feel.every one feel that they belong to something different and when you know what you are why we have to pretend that we are not the same with the Macedonians? We all know that there is a number of us that we have an easy life well payed and we don't want to start digging to find the truth.On this wonderful life we must be good boys so not to get made the Greeks.If we are not different and not claim our rights, then why we make all this?We all know that the Greek state silently have accept our existence until the day we don't make troubles for them.but how we can forget the policy of ethnic cleansing that the Greek make systematically against us.How is possible to exist Greek minority every where in the Balkans and theres is no problem and suddenly when we ask the right to be protected then there is a problem.We the Macedonians who live in Lerin(Florina )we demand to be recognized and have all the rights that the Greek minority have in other country's.
Personally I'm shame because I can't follow this people of vinozito,because I belong to those who re well payed. Bur it is not fair for them not to recognize their contribution in the proses of weak up from our sleeping bed.
I just wish to find the strength to be like them.I'm sure that they have make some mistakes,but we have to keep our head down and listen them because they are really brave fighters.

Spolajti za tvojite ubavi zborovi, mnogu mi e milo da slushnam ova od nash chovek od Egeiska Makedonia! Imam edno prashanje, koi se nailoshi Madzhirite ili Grkomanite?

[MapleLeaf1]

Dobro doijde na ovoij forumot Tzole, jas sum roden vo Kanada ama Majka i Tatko se od Lerinski sela
Da nese plashish da ne kazhish kako je vo Lerin i Egej
Spolajti od sho doijde tuka

[Risto the Great]

I agree Daskalot.
It would be same reflected situation with the Serbomans and Bugarophiles in Republic. It's not hard to measure the harm they did and are still doing to all of us.

And I want somebody to explain, what exactly you have on mind when you speak about "cultural awakening"?

Serbomans and Bulgarophils are Macedonians who start talking in other languages and celebrating other culture's traditions. I defy anyone here to say that I was suggesting anything like that. In fact I was suggesting the opposite. Please advise how that will damage the "cause".

Bratot, have a guess what "cultural awakening" means. I will give it a go if you really want me to.

[Bratot]

Few have grasped the massive distinction between propagating our language in Greece versus what has happened with the Vlachs and Albanians. I have dealt with this matter in depth on my 5 visits to the region and I suspect most of you are relying on your proud patriotic hearts instead of realities tht you can't possibly seem to bear.

Good on you all. Macedonia for the (select) Macedonians. Quite frankly, with a hint of sarcasm, I would rather have a Grkoman than a SDSM voter right about now. At least there is more hope for them. Put that in your pipes and smoke it.

Bratot, you have suggested I am releasing new information in to the public arena about Vinozito's leader. Stiff shit. Everyone in Greece thinks it is the truth. Nothing new there. Let him come out and dispel any allegations. 10 years of almost nothing is not what I would define as a success. I met Pavle in Lerin. He went on about the significance of a radio station and how money needs to be raised. I asked him who would advertise on it (wondering about its long term viability) and he looked at me blankly. So we all put in 100,000 Euro and buy a few antennas and transmitters. Then wonder what the hell it achieved that can't be done from Bitola already.

All of you complaining live in the Diaspora. The freedom you enjoy makes you (and me) strong. Greece is no place of freedom. If you want more of the same, keep doing what you believe right now .... it clearly amounts to nothing.

Ahhh you don't need to do this honestly, it seems to me that w/e me or sb else bring it on in order to show where you doing/thinking wrong it's not gonna convince you enough to accept it as a friendly advice.


Now nobody else is more relevant than you, not me, not Tzole, not Pavle... so why are you having this discussion on first place.

Stiff of soft shit, Risto, doesn't matter really. What you are doing in order to discredit Pavle is indirectly going inline with the Greek interest.
If you took the right to speak free and reveal some information about Pavle,for which we have only your word, I suggest that we should have a view in the private history of all ppl involved in this matter so we will compare and get to our general conclusion.
Insisting to underestimate Vinozhito role and to concentrate on their leader is like watching the UDBA methods in the Republic for dealing the "radical" Macedonian patriotic organizations during Yu period.
Their first move was to instal their agents inside the organization and to use them later in order to compromise them by publicing some sensitive personal informations.
Of course, the unskilled folks is easy to catch on such controversy and rumors like the flies on a jelly.


I am not able nor I came into this discussion in order to convince you, but to point out where you are doing wrong.
It's up to you if you will accept my advice, it's up to your consciousness to support Vodenka and her view.

By undermining our position will produce nothing but conflict among our ppl.

[Risto the Great]

It is in Greece's interest to have Vinozito underperforming as much as it has done for a long time.

I am irrelevant completely. So are you. The Macedonians in Greece are and they are not being catered for. Today I saw a recent press release from Vinozito that stated the following:

We, the national Macedonians who live in Greece, as Greek citizens, regret and oppose this policy, a policy which is unfortunately above all political parties, and keeps many decades. Having a high awareness of belonging to a collectivity of citizens, we feel that such a behavior (regardless of national, linguistic or other identities) is a discard to the European civilization. Furthermore, we believe that such declarations offend directly our common sense and make a mockery of the country.

I don't even know what was being suggested by saying "National" Macedonians. They are ETHNIC Macedonians. Am I reading too much into this? Is there a translation problem, or are they deliberately trying to keep a small voting base with comments like this.

[Bratot]

Serbomans and Bulgarophils are Macedonians who start talking in other languages and celebrating other culture's traditions. I defy anyone here to say that I was suggesting anything like that. In fact I was suggesting the opposite. Please advise how that will damage the "cause".

Bratot, have a guess what "cultural awakening" means. I will give it a go if you really want me to.

I will like to hear what you personally have on mind by "cultural awakening" of the aegean Macedonians.

Because from my point of view it's not possible that you talk about cultural awakening apart from the sense of one national identity of all Macedonians.

How can you achieve one separate from another is the question.

Bugarfiles,Serbomans,Grkomans show strong affinity for Bulgarian,Serbian,Greek ethno-culturological and national symbols.

[Risto the Great]

I will like to hear what you personally have on mind by "cultural awakening" of the aegean Macedonians.

Because from my point of view isn't possible that you talk about cultural awakening apart from the sense of one national identity of all Macedonians.

How can you achieve one separate from another is the question.

Bugarfiles,Serbomans,Grkomans show strong affinity for Bulgarian,Serbian,Greek ethno-culturological and national symbols.

You talk about a national identity. That is a very grey area. The ethnic/racial identity is the only concern I have for Macedonians anywhere in the world. An Albanian in Macedonia has a Macedonian Nationality under one definition of Nationality. And I hate the ambiguity of that word. Feel free to look it up.

The cultural awakening I am talking about is:
- increased familiarity with the language of the people's ancestors.
- increased familiarity with the beliefs & traditions of the people's ancestors.
- increased familiarity with the common history of all Macedonians.

Do you believe the Macedonians from the Republic have not changed over the last 100 years? Simple question.

If yes, do you believe the Macedonians of Greece need to change the same way before acceptance is given and taken from both sides of the border?

If no, why do you feel the Macedonians of Yugoslavia remained impervious to the Serbian oppression?

You are worried these people will become Grkomani ... wake up and smell the ouzo ... they ARE Grkomani. How will any of what I suggested make them MORE Grkomani.

[Bratot]

You talk about a national identity. That is a very grey area. The ethnic/racial identity is the only concern I have for Macedonians anywhere in the world. An Albanian in Macedonia has a Macedonian Nationality under one definition of Nationality. And I hate the ambiguity of that word. Feel free to look it up.

The cultural awakening I am talking about is:
- increased familiarity with the language of the people's ancestors.
- increased familiarity with the beliefs & traditions of the people's ancestors.
- increased familiarity with the common history of all Macedonians.

Do you believe the Macedonians from the Republic have not changed over the last 100 years? Simple question.

If yes, do you believe the Macedonians of Greece need to change the same way before acceptance is given and taken from both sides of the border?

If no, why do you feel the Macedonians of Yugoslavia remained impervious to the Serbian oppression?

You are worried these people will become Grkomani ... wake up and smell the ouzo ... they ARE Grkomani. How will any of what I suggested make them MORE Grkomani.

When I speak about national identity you should know that I refer to the Macedonian ethnic group.

Do you believe the Macedonians from the Republic have not changed over the last 100 years? Simple question.

Yes and No.

If yes, do you believe the Macedonians of Greece need to change the same way before acceptance is given and taken from both sides of the border?

I don't understand what you mean by saying "to change the same way" .

To become Grkomani, as some part of the Macedonians became Srbomani?

Anyway, the "change" that Vodenka suggested in her opinion about her refusing to accept one official Macedonian identity and she called it "imposed" one, and you support her view, is going against the acceptance of w/e kind by the both sides.

If no, why do you feel the Macedonians of Yugoslavia remained impervious to the Serbian oppression?

No, because there was and there is strong resistance to the Serbian oppression.

5000 macedonian ppl landed on Goli Otok, from which 2.500 were most probably..executed.

A large part of the Macedonian emigration in Canada is actually the emigration as a result of the UDBA regime against the Macedonian radicals.

And besides all this, the Macedonians in the Republic had much better space for preserving their cultural and ethnic identity since they were recognized as separate nation/ethnicity. ( no matter that in the practice they wr still oppressed)

This is not possible to get in Greece, that's why we cannot take conclusions as you suggest and to compare the both sides.

You are worried these people will become Grkomani ... wake up and smell the ouzo ... they ARE Grkomani. How will any of what I suggested make them MORE Grkomani.

Jesus Christ! Why haven't you said that on the start Risto.

Now, seriously.

I'm not concerned about the Grkomani, but about the part which manage so far to hold strongly on their beliefs and Macedonian consciousness.

By Vodenka approach, they will be tempted to become Grkomani too.

To make this absurdity even clearer, Vodenka is trying to impose a different ethnic feeling/national identity from the Macedonians in the republic.

And to add about the "cultural awakening", you are contradicting your own definition by supporting Vodenka approach.

You may work on cultural awakening in the sense of a stronger ethnic/national belonging and to insert to the new generation more stronger knowledge and loyality to their Macedonian origin.

But you wont succeed in changing the Grkomani, you may try of course... BUT BUT with the approach that will not compromise the already "awakened" Macedonians.

[Risto the Great]

I don't understand what you mean by saying "to change the same way" .

To become Grkomani, as some part of the Macedonians became Srbomani?

Anyway, the "change" that Vodenka suggested in her opinion about her refusing to accept one official Macedonian identity and she called it "imposed" one, and you support her view, is going against the acceptance of w/e kind by the both sides.

I am not saying to become Srbomani. I am saying the Macedonians in the Republic have changed. An obvious example is how they have embraced so much English that it is a tragedy. If I hear "super" one more time ....

Before you tell me this is a silly example. I will tell you that relatives of mine from Egej think the Macedonians of the Republic are speaking Serbian when they use "Englishisms". What do they know? Perception counts.

Given this example of one change, would the Macedonians of Greece need to learn more English to become better Macedonians? I am sure you understand the absurdity of this. But to integrate un-noticed into modern Macedonia, this would have to happen. Why should the Macedonians of Greece embrace the new "100 year improved" Macedonians? Why should the imposition of the modern (Republic) Macedonian identity be considered the perfect one for the Macedonians of Greece? What are the Macedonians of the Republic doing to make it (integration) easier? Where are the examples of nationalistic pride coming from in Macedonia? The Egejci understand strong nationalism, anything less and they think they are dealing with no-hopers. All we get from the MK Government are veiled comments that barely want to offend anyone. Why can't we accept we have a fork in the road and develop a dedicated strategy to align the interests of all Macedonians. Where OLD Becomes NEW again.

The Croatians are doing it amongst themselves as we speak.

Macedonians of the Republic need to look at themselves before they demand much more from others.

I'm not concerned about the Grkomani, but about the part which manage so far to hold strongly on their beliefs and Macedonian consciousness.

In contrast to you, I am ONLY concerned about the Grkomani. The ones who have held on to their Macedonian beliefs and consciousness do not need further convincing. And their number is insignificant. I love those people. I think I know all of them personally.

I will take the hundreds of thousands of Grkomani and restore some dignity to their lives. Perhaps (in time) you won't abandon them like all before have.

[Bratot]

I am not saying to become Srbomani. I am saying the Macedonians in the Republic have changed. An obvious example is how they have embraced so much English that it is a tragedy. If I hear "super" one more time ....

Before you tell me this is a silly example. I will tell you that relatives of mine from Egej think the Macedonians of the Republic are speaking Serbian when they use "Englishisms". What do they know? Perception counts.

Given this example of one change, would the Macedonians of Greece need to learn more English to become better Macedonians? I am sure you understand the absurdity of this. But to integrate un-noticed into modern Macedonia, this would have to happen. Why should the Macedonians of Greece embrace the new "100 year improved" Macedonians? Why should the imposition of the modern (Republic) Macedonian identity be considered the perfect one for the Macedonians of Greece? What are the Macedonians of the Republic doing to make it (integration) easier? Where are the examples of nationalistic pride coming from in Macedonia? The Egejci understand strong nationalism, anything less and they think they are dealing with no-hopers. All we get from the MK Government are veiled comments that barely want to offend anyone. Why can't we accept we have a fork in the road and develop a dedicated strategy to align the interests of all Macedonians. Where OLD Becomes NEW again.

This is like fighting with the inner I. From the way you describe it.

As I said on the begining, the will has to come from both sides.

One example, why most of the Egejci, doesn't come to the Republic?

Even for a weekend, for a day or two...


On a contrary I can testify for a impressive frequention of Macedonians going to Egejska Makedonija, most of them going on a vacation or visiting their relatives or friends.

And to accomplish that they have 10 times more difficulties than to the Macedonians from Egejska in order to visit the Republic.

First reason is the Greek VISA, second the treatment of Greek police forcing the guest from the Republic to clean the border, taking money from them, threating them , provoce and tease them and plus the lower economic standard of the Republic.

And to be realistic about the Government of Macedonia, they should and have to do more for supporting the Macedonians from Egejska.

But, it's not correct to say that the Republic haven't done anything for them already.

Around 20.000 Macedonians from the Egej, deported '47, got free homes, resocialization in the new system, with full education&healthcare and a permanent shelter in the Republic.

The rest of those deported Macedonians around the world has been given the opportunity to get Macedonian citizenship- passports.

They are functioning within the teritory of RoM now in order to fight for the rights of Macedonians in Greece.
Every year they are organizing a congress.


And if the protest against the low interest coming from the government should be working against the republic and the Macedonians living there, than I must say we are in fucked up situation.

Not mentioning the low and disapointing results from all governments till now are reflecting more on the Macedonians who are living in the Republic.
Poor standard, poor country, poor diplomacy,problems all around us, war conflict, the Albanian question and many other things.

But the solution is not give up and work against eachother, we should only find a way how to isolate those antimacedonian structures that work inside the state.

And I pointed out that you have aversion on the modern Macedonian language.

If it is only a matter of perception there is no place for worrying, it can be fixed easily by little education so the misleading will be cutted off.

And what exactly all this has to do with the Vodenka approach?

Macedonians of the Republic need to look at themselves before they demand much more from others.

True, but only if it's practiced by the both sides. Selfcriticism isn't much to ask for.

In contrast to you, I am ONLY concerned about the Grkomani. The ones who have held on to their Macedonian beliefs and consciousness do not need further convincing. And their number is insignificant. I love those people. I think I know all of them personally.

You are absolutelly wrong. The cultural awakening of Macedonians is a process which cannot stop since our problem is not from a simple nature nor there is a born immunity in all of us.

The cultural awakening as I understand it, intensively should be aplied on the Macedonians in the Republic, so they could be the 'motor' of all Macedonians.

In order to preserve something you have to practice in everyday living.
Not only in your memories from baba and dedo.

With time, that will faint out and the new generation will totally lose the Macedonian sense.

I will take the hundreds of thousands of Grkomani and restore some dignity to their lives. Perhaps (in time) you won't abandon them like all before have

If I say to you, that the cultural awakening first should be applied in the Republic, to insert a huge dose of Macedonian pride, educating the ppl about the history matter, to teach the ppl to appreciate what they have and to defend it.

So, how far the Grkomani state of mind could be in order to get even lil closer to those in the Republic?

Only with putting la arge accent on Macedonian tradition, language, music etc. and selfconsciousness those Grkomani who still feel a part different from the Greek element will release the barriers in their mind and soul.

But those who are fully implemented Greeks now, the only method to turn them back to their origins is to use the same methods that Metaxas used in order to erase the Macedonian element in them.

And cut the drama, there is no question of abandoning but priorities.
First those who are able to fight, need to be teached, instructed how to do it.
Than to get the name issue solved in our interest.

After these and couple of more things are done, we can speak about working on those hard type Grkomani cases.

You can't have all at once.

[Risto the Great]

Bratot, you never defined "cultural awakening" even though I asked you to.
I will assume you accept my definition.
I completely agree that the "motor" for Macedonians needs to be in the Republic. It is not there now. Simple.

Vodenka talked about language. You say I have an aversion to it? Not really... it is easier for me because I know English really well. But the modern language sounds quite foreign to the Macedonians in Greece. You do not appear to accept this. I am saying this is a reality that can be ignored if you like. But it will be at the peril of achieving the awareness we have discussed.

Many Egejci go to Macedonia, I am not sure why you believe this is not the case. If the train line from Lerin to Bitola is ever re-opened, it will be crazy! But I have gone over the border. You should hear those guards from Greece ... "Why do you want to go over to that shithole of a country?" Guard walks away and looks all official and writes details down about you .... then listen to the guards in Macedonia "What do you want here?". Who needs the bullshit? ... drink another rakija in the selo and don't worry about it.

Only with putting large accent on Macedonian tradition, language, music etc. and selfconsciousness those Grkomani who still feel a part different from the Greek element will release the barriers in their mind and soul.

What have I been saying and how does it differ from this comment?

And cut the drama, there is no question of abandoning but priorities.
First those who are able to fight, need to be teached, instructed how to do it.
Than to get the name issue solved in our interest.

You said you were not concerned about the Grkomani. I am not sure how your intent could be interpreted any other way. If we follow your idea above, we take the strong Macedonians and show them how to do it. Correct? Who is we? How well do we know our target market? Who should we ask? The people that live there of course.