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Old 08-16-2011, 03:53 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai View Post
That's pathetic!Greeks haven't manipulated anything,these are the exact quotes of ancient authors!
I did not dispute the originality of the quotes but their erroneous interpretation. They were intentionally taken out of their content, so the conclusion that your buddies have drew up is fairly manipulated.

Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

That's even more pathetic!What propaganda of Macedonian kings?Some of these quotes were writen in Roman time,like this here of Cassius Dio:
Originally Posted by Agamoi Thytai

Were there any Macedonian kings in 2nd AD century who convinced him to write that Macedonians were Greeks,or perhaps he dreamt the ghosts of Alexander and Philip threatening him?
You are purposefully twisting the analysis of Bosworth. In the underlined passage, he is not referring to the Cassius Dio but to Arrian. I know that both of them lived in Roman period, but you forgot the part when Bosworth clearly said: "...he must have borrowed it from some intermediate source". To my opinion, the standard expression "Macedonia and the rest of Greece" or "Macedonians and the rest of Greeks" partially derive from these 'intermediate sources' of Macedonian propaganda. Or, there is also an another conclusive explanation. Greece was under Macedonian rule from 338 B.C - 197 B.C, so as a matter of fact Greece was considered as integral part of Macedonia.

The Roman province of Macedonia (Latin: Provincia Macedoniae, Greek: Επαρχία Μακεδονίας) was officially established in 146 BC, after the Roman general Quintus Caecilius Metellus defeated Andriscus of Macedon, the last Ancient King of Macedon in 148 BC, and after the four client republics ("tetrarchy") established by Rome in the region were dissolved. The province incorporated ancient Macedon, Epirus, Thessaly, and parts of Illyria, Paeonia and Thrace.

The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD

The Diocese of Macedonia (Latin: Dioecesis Macedoniae, Greek: Διοίκησις Μακεδονίας) was a diocese of the later Roman Empire, forming part of the praetorian prefecture of Illyricum. Its capital was Thessalonica.The diocese was formed, probably under Constantine I (r. 306337), from the division of the Diocletianian Diocese of Moesia. It included the provinces of Macedonia Prima, Macedonia Secunda or Salutaris (periodically abolished), Thessalia, Epirus vetus, Epirus nova, Achaea, and Crete. The Diocese of Macedonia, together with the Diocese of Dacia and (up to 379) the Diocese of Pannonia, made up the Prefecture of Illyricum.
Therefore, your selected quotes indicate nothing about the ethnicity of Macedonians. They were referred to administrative boundaries of Macedonia and Greece. It's true that Strabo wrote:"...έστι μεν ουν Ελλάς και η Μακεδονίαν", but this cannot sustain as a solid proof on the alleged Greekness of Macedonians. Again its Strabo himself who leaves no doubt about the geographical boundaries of Epirus and Macedonia, which were excluded either geographically and ethnically from Greece.

The Peneius forms the boundary between Lower Macedonia, or that part of Macedonia which is close to the sea, and Thessaly and Magnesia; the Haliacmon forms the boundary of Upper Macedonia; and the Haliacmon also, together with the Erigon and the Axius and another set of rivers, form the boundary of the Epeirotes and the Paeonians.*.html

ὅτι Πηνειὸς μὲν ὁρίζει τὴν κάτω καὶ πρὸς θαλάττῃ Μακεδονίαν ἀπὸ Θετταλίας καὶ Μαγνησίας,
μετὰ μὲν οὖν τοὺς Ἠπειρώτας καὶ τοὺς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Ἑλλήνων Ἀκαρνᾶνές εἰσι καὶ Αἰτωλοὶ καὶ Λοκροὶ οἱ Ὀζόλαι

After the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, then, come the following peoples of the Greeks: the Acarnanians, the Aetolians, and the Ozolian Locrians; and, next, the Phocians and Boeotians.
In another place Strabo did call Thessalians as Greeks living in the most northerly region:

Strabo 11.14.12.

ἔδει μὲν γὰρ αὐτοῖς ἐπιθέτου κόσμου τοιούτου τινός, οἱ δὲ Θετταλοὶ μάλιστα βαθυστολοῦντες, ὡς εἰκός, διὰ τὸ πάντων εἶναι Ἑλλήνων βορειοτάτους καὶ ψυχροτάτους νέμεσθαι τόπους ἐπιτηδειοτάτην παρέσχοντο μίμησιν τῇ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν διασκευῇ ἐν τοῖς ἀναπλάσμασιν

"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region".

Ἔφορος μὲν οὖν ἀρχὴν εἶναι τῆς Ἑλλάδος τὴν Ἀκαρνανίαν φησὶν ἀπὸ τῶν ἑσπερίων μερῶν ταύτην γὰρ συνάπτειν πρώτην τοῖς Ἠπειρωτικοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes
Your buddies tried unsuccessfully to invent a ridiculous response:

Strabo talks about the story of Armenus who accompanied Jason in Armenia. In other words at the time of Argonautic expedition which of course happened centuries *before* the Macedonian migration from Pindos and *obviously* at the time being, Thessalians were “in the most northerly and coldest region” since Macedonia didnt exist.
I've a couple of questions:

Let admit that Strabo is referring to the Argonautic expedition (XIII-XII century B.C it is guessed, correct if I am mistaken). But, how come that Strabo did not describe for examples Epirotes as Greeks living in the most northern regions? All the ancient geographers did not count Macedonians and Epirotes as Greeks. For them, Greece starts from Ambracia Gulf and river Peneus must have been the boundary which separated Greek speaking world from 'barbarian' one.

Last edited by Epirot; 08-18-2011 at 07:29 AM.
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