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-   -   Flags/Banners of Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8974)

Om3n 07-03-2018 08:00 AM

As a follow-up to my last post: after a bit of research I am certain that the colourised image above is another Bulgar forgery. I found a site which has a vectorised version of the flag in question [URL="http://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_8985.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. The vector image has a red background with a black lion which, based on the preponderance of such flags, I believe is a more accurate representation of the flag's original colour.

Moreover, in the comment section of that site, a Bulgar has made the assertion that the "original" flag colour is green; the lion red, and that "no one draws a black lion" (translated from Bulgar), no doubt referring to the colourised image. This statement is of course false since the flag of the Razlovtsi Uprising also has a black lion on a red backdrop. The Bulgar also claims that the text is white, but in the colourised image one can see that the green saturation is overlayed even on the "white text" (evidently cutting corners). But the most damning of all is that the Bulgar actually [I]links[/I] to the potential source of this manipulation, another Bulgar on Facebook who [URL="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3132770689828&set=a.3117366144724.2134024.1581624596&type=3&theater"][U]colourises old photographs[/U][/URL]. He is then duly called out on it in the reply.

To top it all of, here is a real-life reconstruction of the flag that I found. I wonder what their point of reference was...
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/152d64660d2605d57fcf5f52bb563466/5B547E60/t51.2885-15/e35/26871740_569452103432837_8105259034568818688_n.jpg[/img]

Niko777 07-03-2018 10:11 AM

You raise some good points, and at least you found the person behind the colorization. But I'm not entirely convinced yet on the color scheme.
It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone if red and green was the color scheme, look at Apostol Petkov's flag from Enidze-Vardar, it was half green and half red. So let's not play silly games and imply that if it was green it some how makes it less Macedonian.
Sofia already has a large collection of original Macedonian flags, perhaps the Zagorichani flag is on display in one of their museums. That would be the only way to confirm.

Apostol Petkov's flag:

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b4/Zname_Enidzhe.jpg/300px-Zname_Enidzhe.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://neumirai.org/sites/default/files/styles/content-img/public/news/novini-interesno-lyubopitno-3878.png[/IMG]

Om3n 07-03-2018 10:26 AM

It wasn't my intention to insinuate anything but to deal with the evidence matter-of-factly and postulate what is more [i]likely[/i]. And I would retort that it's your insinuation that the image is a colourisation of a monochromatic image based on the original colour scheme for which you have no proof only conjecture which is truly silly. Either the colourised flag is a product of Bulgar fantasising or the vectorised flag and the real-life example I provided a product of Macedonian fantasising. Pick one.

Niko777 07-03-2018 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=Om3n;174907]And I would retort that it's your insinuation that the image is a colourisation of a monochromatic image based on the original colour scheme for which you have no proof only conjecture which is truly silly. Either the colourised flag is a product of Bulgar fantasising or the vectorised flag and the real-life example I provided a product of Macedonian fantasising. Pick one.[/QUOTE]

Modern reconstructions and online vectorised flags are also irrelevant, it doesn't make anything more likely. Based on the link you provided, the Bulgars also reconstructed the flag, but this too means nothing:

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/mwqX5q9.jpg[/IMG]

Om3n 07-03-2018 10:58 AM

We have points of reference from the late-19th and early-20th centuries which provide us with "types". There are, as I said, examples of a black lion on a red backdrop and I'm aware of ones with a green backdrop (used seemingly exclusively by Bulgars) but the lion is always gold. My sleuthing skills could just be poor and I haven't come across an example of a red lion on a green flag as yet.

Niko777 07-03-2018 11:08 AM

I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQxsejVyOlFRL-MEcTwzVUvyb9mJ81yFwiJOXmL-5qDCPTO63wbg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/ioeecH.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG]

Liberator of Makedonija 07-03-2018 11:28 AM

[QUOTE=Om3n;174902]As a follow-up to my last post: after a bit of research I am certain that the colourised image above is another Bulgar forgery. I found a site which has a vectorised version of the flag in question [URL="http://documents-mk.blogspot.com/2009/08/blog-post_8985.html"][U]here[/U][/URL]. The vector image has a red background with a black lion which, based on the preponderance of such flags, I believe is a more accurate representation of the flag's original colour.

Moreover, in the comment section of that site, a Bulgar has made the assertion that the "original" flag colour is green; the lion red, and that "no one draws a black lion" (translated from Bulgar), no doubt referring to the colourised image. This statement is of course false since the flag of the Razlovtsi Uprising also has a black lion on a red backdrop. The Bulgar also claims that the text is white, but in the colourised image one can see that the green saturation is overlayed even on the "white text" (evidently cutting corners). But the most damning of all is that the Bulgar actually [I]links[/I] to the potential source of this manipulation, another Bulgar on Facebook who [URL="https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3132770689828&set=a.3117366144724.2134024.1581624596&type=3&theater"][U]colourises old photographs[/U][/URL]. He is then duly called out on it in the reply.

To top it all of, here is a real-life reconstruction of the flag that I found. I wonder what their point of reference was...
[img]https://scontent.cdninstagram.com/vp/152d64660d2605d57fcf5f52bb563466/5B547E60/t51.2885-15/e35/26871740_569452103432837_8105259034568818688_n.jpg[/img][/QUOTE]


Think you're onto it there Om3n and you are right about the black lion on the red background. Here is the flag from the Razlovci Uprising:

[IMG]https://vgy.me/FEbwGm.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Niko777;174910]I wonder if the green backdrop is a reference to or was borrowed from the green Ottoman flag?
It would explain why they had white crescents on it.

[IMG]https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQQxsejVyOlFRL-MEcTwzVUvyb9mJ81yFwiJOXmL-5qDCPTO63wbg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://vgy.me/ioeecH.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-noM71lMdXao/UBl4uRC7f6I/AAAAAAAAA0k/HXgwjQB1WQc/s1600/zagorichani+flag.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

This is possible as the fight was for autonomy within the Ottoman Empire, not total independence. So it would make sense to incorporate some Ottoman symbolism, we can't forget Sandanski posed with Ottoman flags during the Young Turk Revolution.

Om3n 07-03-2018 12:26 PM

[URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgnrmknjj8qcuby/flag-compare.png?dl=0a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430184_3132770689828_1581624596_32543621_2135572442_n.jpg"][U]Here[/U][/URL] is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.

Niko777 07-03-2018 01:21 PM

[QUOTE=Om3n;174915][URL="https://www.dropbox.com/s/jgnrmknjj8qcuby/flag-compare.png?dl=0a3.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/430184_3132770689828_1581624596_32543621_2135572442_n.jpg"][U]Here[/U][/URL] is how the flags desaturate.

This shows that when light green with dark red are desaturated there is a near non-distinction of the colours in the monochromatic image. However, when a darker green with a lighter red colour are desaturated, the red appears lighter in the monochrome (you can try it with the Bulgar flag and see for yourself). Thus the original colour scheme of the flag being a green backdrop with a red lion is highly improbable. Having red desaturate darker than green is achievable, but not without using ridiculously unrealistic colour schemes which have no exemplary archetype in any of the flags posted in this thread.[/QUOTE]

When was the Ilinden magazine published, 1920s? If technology back then yielded the same results as today's, then I agree with your post above.

Risto the Great 07-03-2018 01:23 PM

Of course you realise you weren't even allowed to wear green in Ottoman times unless you were a Muslim. If we see any Green on a Macedonian flag, I would regard it as an extreme act of aggression. What do you think Deliberator of Macedon?


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