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Epirot 08-21-2010 03:03 PM

I shall present some of my research about any possible relationship between Albanian language and any Caucasian language! The Udi language is considered by most of linguists as the last remnant of a language once spoken in Caucasian Albania.

Linguists have never thought about any relation between Albanian and Udi. They classified it to be of a totally different stock from Albanian of Balkans:

[QUOTE] Genetic affiliation

[B][COLOR="Red"]Udi belongs to the Southern (or Lezgian)group of the East Caucasian language family.[/COLOR][/B] [B]It can be regarded as a marginal Lezgian language stemming from a Proto-Lezgian dialect that became separated from the central ‘Samur’ branch quite early (1500 BC ?). It can be assumed that the Proto-Lezgian ‘urheimat’ was located in Northern Azerbaijan [/B](roughly speaking in the region between the Kura and Alazani rivers). Archi, another marginal language, was the first dialect to leave this continuum, lateron followed by what then became the Samur languages (Eastern Samur: Lezgi proper, Tabasaran, and Aghul), Western Samur (Rutul, Tskahur), Southern Samur (now in the Shah-Dagh mountains) (Kryts and Budukh). The speakers of Early Udi obviously stayed in the southern and eastern parts of the Proto-Lezgian urheimat. The so-called ‘tenth’ Lezgian language, namely Khinalug (in the Shah-Dagh mountains) probably emerged from contact of a Proto-Lezgian dialect with another yet unidentified East Caucasian language (or vice versa). Udi shares some important isoglosses with the Western Samur language Tsakhur. There are no significant isoglosses with languages outside the Lezgian branch of East Caucasian (Nakh, Awaro-Andian, Tsezian, Lak, or Dargwa).


If we want to establish ties between two language, we have to start from basic vocabularies of both languages. Let begin with the numerical system:

In Udi:

[QUOTE]The basic ordinals (1-10) are as follows:

1 sa
2 p’a?
3 xib - xe.b - xe.?b
4 bip’
5 qo
6 u?q
7 vu?g/ - vug/
8 mu?g/ - mug/
9 vui
10 vic’




1. Njė
2. Dy
3. Tre
4. Katėr
5. Pesė
6. Gjashtė
8. Tetė
9. Nėntė
10. Dhjetė[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Numbers from 11 to 19 are formed by adding -(e)c’c’e to the first decade which is derived from vic’ ‘ten’ (an opaque element -e is added). The numerals of the first decade may experience slight (in parts idiosyncratic) modifications (especially in allegro speech):

11 sac’c’e
12 p’a?c’c’e
13 xibe’c’ce
14 bip’ec’c’e
15 qoc’c’e
16 u?qec’c’e
17 vu?g/ec’c’e
18 mu ?g/ec’c’e
19 vuic’c’e - vuiec’c’e


In contrast, in Albanian numbers from 11 to 19 aren't formed by adding such suffixes.

[QUOTE]The hundreds are based on bac/ ‘hundert’:

100 (sa)bac/
200 p’a?bac/
300 xibbac/
400 bip’bac/ - bip’p’ac/
500 uqbac/
600 qo?bac/
700 vu?g/bac/
800 mu ?g/bac/
900 vuibac/
1000 hazar


The hundreds in Albanian are based on 'qind'/ 'hundred'

George S. 08-21-2010 04:13 PM

Sovius regarding the illyrians Arguments against Illyrian origin:
The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on linguistic grounds.
According to linguist V. Georgiev, the theory of an Illyrian origin for the Albanians is weakened by a lack of any Albanian names before the 12th century and the relative absence of Greek influence that would surely be present if the Albanians inhabited their homeland continuously since ancient times The number of Greek words borrowed in Albania is small; if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, there should be more.
According to Georgiev, although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian. Furthermore, placenames can be a special case and the Albanian language more generally has not been proven to be of Illyrian stock.
Many linguists have tried to link Albanian with Illyrian, but without clear results.[Albanian belongs to the satem group within Indo-European language tree, while there is a debate weather Illyrian was centum or satem. On the other hand, Dacian and Thracian] seem to belong to satem.
There is a lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while Albanians scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, most scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romance language. Recently, some Albanian archeologists have also been moving away from describing the Komani-Kruja culture as a proto-Albanian culture.
The Illyrians as a people went extinct, so did their languages by the 6th century.Today, almost nothing of it survives except for names. Ancient Illyrians were subject to varying degrees of Celticization, Hellenization,Romanization and later Slavicisation.
part from the linguistic theory that Albanian is more akin to eastern Romance (i.e. Dacian substrate) than western Roman (with Illyrian substrate- such as Dalmatian), Georgiev also notes that marine words in Albanian are borrowed from other languages, suggesting that Albanians were not originally a coastal people (as the Illyrians were). The scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory - if Albanians originated in the region of Illyria there would surely be a heavy Greek influence.
study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age.[95] This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age, belonging to some cultures such as Tei, Monteoru and Noua were found in graves from some necropoles SE of Romania, namely in Zimnicea, Smeeni, Candesti, Cioinagi-Balintesti, Gradistea-Coslogeni and Sultana-Malu Rosu; and the human fossil bones and teeth of 27 individuals from the early Iron Age, dating from the 10th to 7th century B.C. from the Hallstatt Era (the Babadag Culture), were found extremely SE of Romania near the Black Sea coast, in some settlements from Dobrogea, namely: Jurilovca, Satu Nou, Babadag, Niculitel and Enisala-Palanca.[95] After comparing this material with the present-day European population, the authors concluded:
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).[95]

Sovius 08-22-2010 12:22 AM

[QUOTE]you did not offer a single proof to establish any linguistic link between Albanian and any Caucasian language.[/QUOTE]

Yes I did. Re-examine the evidence that I previously provided for your benefit. You’re simply avoiding facts which cannot be blurred by assumptions that have been passed down as accepted truths. There is a difference between an Indo-European language and a language or group of languages that came to be Indo-Europeanized and blended together over time. Albanian is a language isolate, the product of many different languages (including Illyrian). Sharing a few commonalities with another people is not the same thing as actually being that other people.

Regarding your comparisons, explain to me how this is not evidence that one set of numerical terms was not simply replaced by another, albeit, corrupted set of terms due to re-settlement. Take some time to study the symmetry of the Croatian numbering system and then take a look beyond the Danube. Your numbers indicate an intrusive presence. Your 1 through 10 is loosely based on another people’s way of communicating the same values.

Soldier of Macedon 08-22-2010 04:05 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]It is useless to disqualify Illyrian theory only because was well-established during European expansion of XIX century. Nonetheless, such theory dated back into Byzantine times.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, you have made the same claim several times, but you are yet to once corroborate it.
[QUOTE]Our Illyrian lineage is terminated by the combination of many factors like: language (a considerable number of Illyrian can be explained through Albanian), territory (Albanians inhabit almost the same territories as Southern Illyrians), genetics (many genetic studies have indicate autochthony of Albanians), culture (our culture bears many Illyrian and Pelasgic signs), etc.[/QUOTE]
A 'considerable' number of words? Pelasgian culture? No corroboration. Can you notice the developing trend?
[QUOTE]The hundreds in Albanian are based on 'qind'/ 'hundred'[/QUOTE]
How is 'q' pronounced in Albanian when the word 'qind' is said?

Epirot 08-22-2010 04:44 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67900]

How is 'q' pronounced in Albanian when the word 'qind' is said?[/QUOTE]

'Q' in Albanian is pronounced like 'ch' in English.

Bratot 08-25-2010 02:16 AM

fire - zjarr - јара (Јарило, слов. бог) топлина
grudge - inat - инат
spark plug - kandelė - кандило (свеќица модерно)
shore - breg - брег
boat - barkė - арка
wave - valė - вал
wood - dru - др`о / дрво
father - atė - тате (старослов. ата)
mother - мама - мама
you - ti - ти
carpet shoe - papuēe - папуча (којзнае чив е)
fog - mjegull - магла
hole - gropė - рупа
drink - pi / pije - пи / пие
window - parvaz - превез
barn - stallė - штала
plough - plug - плуг
water - vadis - вода
come on - hajde - ајде
cattle - gjedhė - гоедо
garden - bahēe - бавча
drunkard - pijanec - пијаница
chubby - buēko - буцко
meat - mish - месо
root - rrėnjė - корење

makedonin 08-25-2010 02:47 AM

[QUOTE]mother - мама - мама
water - vadis - вода[/QUOTE]

I don't know if you compare Albanian with Slavic or Macedonian. But in this case I don't think those words corespond to each other.

Albanian water> ujė and mother > nėnė. I haven't heard Albanian to this day that says mama or vadis, although it is possible who knows.

Interesting word would be:
mother-in-law vjehėrr (vjehrra) in Macedonian svekrva.

Soldier of Macedon 10-22-2010 01:18 AM

Onur, are you able to get your hands Celebi's works relating to the Balkans?

Onur 10-22-2010 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;74898]Onur, are you able to get your hands Celebi's works relating to the Balkans?[/QUOTE]

I only have the part where it relates Albania as PDF file but it`s in Turkish.

Evliya Celebi`s complete Seyahatname is total of 10 volume. Only one volume consists a book of ~950 pages. So it`s close to 10.000 pages in total. I don't have this full set tough.

makedonin 10-22-2010 10:33 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67374]If you want to concern yourself with Celebi's own opinion then have a think about why he said your people actually do look like Arabs. Or have you missed that?[/QUOTE]

I have met Lebaneses whom I thought to be Albanians. The face features are extraordinary similar. Interestingly enough one of them told me that he was usually asked on the streets something in a strange language. Afterwards he was informed that he was mistaken for an Albanian.

Ain't that odd!

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