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Epirot 08-17-2010 09:02 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67317]

I must say, Epirot, this was an excellent opportunity for you to put forth and corroborate your argument concerning the Illyro-Albanian connection. I am left far from convinced.[/QUOTE]

And I am left far from being convinced with your hypothesis of non-Illyrian origin of the Albanians. This was also an excellent opportunity for you to corroborate with valid proofs your doubts about Illyro-Albanian connection. I mean you never cited a single modern authority in history that deny Illyrian ancestry of Albanians.

Our Illyrian essence, as I've argued, is not a fake romantic tale as was the case of "Greeks". There are more evidences that goes in favour of Illyrian essence of Albanians. Nonetheless, I don't doubt that are other evidences that says the opposite but they seems little against well-argued Illyro-Albanian connection.

History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans. That is to say, that Albanians are native in their lands. The best candidate as being ancestor of Albanians is most likely Illyrians due to fact that Albanians peopled the lands of South Illyria.

Though I am not so familiar with Genetics speech, I shall post a very clear data that speaks volumes.


Epirot 08-17-2010 09:05 AM

An another scientific index on Genetic of Albanians:


Epirot 08-17-2010 09:38 AM

More about Illyro-Albanian linguistic connection:

[B]Universal geography, or, A description of all the parts of the ..., Volume 4 By Conrad Malte-Brun[/B]

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Red"]The Albanians are probably a tribe of the ancient Illyrians[/COLOR][/B], that migrated from the inland and mountainous countries, and became known when the weakness of the Roman empire compelled the mountaineers and shepherds

[B]Origin of tha Albanians, their language.[/B]

to trust to their own strength for the defence of their possessions; but it is not to be imagined that a primitive tribe, or one which remained unmixed during two thousand years, exists in a country like European Turkey, peopled by different nations that are confounded with each other.
[COLOR="red"][B]It has been shown from the language of the Albanians, that they have inhabited Europe, as long as the Greeks and Celts, with whom they appear to have been connected; it is not unlikely that the Illyrians, whose language resembles the one spoken by the primitive tribes of the Felusghi, JJaraani, Graiki and Makeaones, inhabited before the time of history, the Albanian mountains that were governed by hereditary chiefs, and situated near some tribes of that race which has been since called Slavonic[/B][/COLOR]. The Illyrians sent numerous colonies into Italy, but at the period of the great Celtic invasion into Greece and Asia, some Illyrians, among others the Albani, were subdued by warlike Celts and Germans in the same manner, and much about the same time, that the conquest of Galatia was effected. The Romans and Italians who made themselves masters of Illyria in a later age, were incorporated with the inhabitants of towns, [COLOR="red"][B]and from that period the pastoral tribes were distinguished by the Celtic name of Albani[/B][/COLOR]; their language was partly retained, but increased and corrupted by the addition of words and phrases in the vulgar Italian or Romana rustica and military jargon of the legions. These changes, and the fact that, in ancient times, the .Kolian. t[COLOR="red"][B]he Pelasgian, and perhaps the Illyrian, had some affinity with the Italian, enable us to explain how the Albanian[/B][/COLOR], the Daco-Latin, or modern Wallachian, originally formed from Oacian languages row unknown, were connected with the rustic and military dialects of the Romans; but the one and the other were again altered in the tenth century, when numerous hordes of Carpathian Slavonians, commanded chiefly by princes of the Gothic race, repeopled the south of Illyria.
It is thus that a new system may be established, of which Leibnitz* and Palmier de Grentesmenilb were not ignorant; it was in some degree elucidated by Masci0 and Thunmann,'1 but involved in numerous difficulties by Dolci and Sestrencewitz." Had it been connected with the researches of orientalists, much additional light might have been thrown on the history and ancient geography of Greece, Italy and Asia Minor. As the Albanian language is the living monument on which the whole depends, we shall examine it more fully; if we enter into a digression, it cannot be considered out of place in a geographical work.
I It is admitted, nay, it has been partly proved by philologists, that a number of languages spoken in different countries, which extend from the banks of the Ganges to the shores of Iceland, bear some resemblance to each other. If that fact be kept in view, the mixed nature of the Albanian language cannot be thought a local and particular phenomenon, as it was considered in the time of Leibnitz, but it may be accounted for by the analogy that pervades all the Indo-Gothic tongues. [B]Thus the word gneri signifies a man in Albanian, and corresponds with aner in Greek, nor in Persian, Sanscrit and Zend, and with nero, a strong man, nerietme, virile strength, in the Sabine or ancient Italian dialect; another remarkable instance may be adduced; ziarm is the Albanian word for heat, tjerm the Armenian, thermos the Ionian, tharmos the lolian, garm the Persian, and warm the German. These examples show that the words are similar, but it cannot be determined that any one of them is derived from any other[/B]; in the same manner reg, a king in Albanian, is not unlike rex in Latin, rix in Celtic, regin in Islandic, radja in Sanscrit, and other
• Leibnitz, Collect. VI. p. 2, p. 138. Annal. des Voyages, III. 157. b P. de Grentesmenil, Urxcia Antiqua, p. 213, &c. « Mnsci, Kssai sur les Albanais. Annales des.
Voyages, III. 145. ' Thunmann, Untenucliungcn uber die ocstliche voclker. « Dolci. de przstantia Lingujc Illyric*, Sestrettcewitz, Hecherclics sur les Slaves, &c.

synonymes, the primitives of which it is impossible to ascertain; the same remark is applicable to the grammar of the Albanian language; if it be in many respects like those of the Greek and Latin, it is a proof of its relation or connexion with these tongues, not of its derivation from them; it is certain that there must have been grammatical systems in Phrygia, Thrace and IHyria at the same time, or evert at an earlier age than in Greece. II lyria as well as Beotia may claim the inventions of Cadmus.
[B]Some Sanscrit words of a geographical nature must be re- • marked by every one who studies the Albanian. Mail, a moun- i tain,(hence maina in Thessaly and the Peloponnesus,) and gour, * """*• a rock or hill, are common terms in Albania; Candahar and Candavia have the same signification; these instances are by no means exceptions to the rule; with equal probability we may derive from the Sanscrit, and much more readily than from the Greek, the words Hcmus, Pindus, (Bindhia or Vindia,) Parnassus, (Paranischa,) and Kynthos;? it follows from these and other examples of the same kind, that a connexion subsists between all the Japhethic languages, of which the high districts in Armenia might have been the common centre.[/B]
[COLOR="red"][B]As to the character of the Albanian, it may be affirmed that more than a third of its primitives are Greek roots reduced to their primitive, barbarous and monosyllabic form; it is equally true that the Greek words in the Albanian are most closely allied to those in the jEolic dialect[/B][/COLOR], which does not differ radically from the ruder and older language of the Pelasghi,« that was mixed with the ancient Macedonian, Thessalian and Beotian; [B][COLOR="red"]thus the Albanian might have been partly the same as an ancient semi-Greek dialect that was spoken before the time of Homer[/COLOR][/B]; t[B]he other third of the roots appears to be common to the Latin, Sabine, Italo-Celtic, German and Slavonic, or to the languages that were spoken in the central and western regions of Europe.[/B] But no reason has yet been alleged, which could enable us to determine whether all its relations with these languages of ancient date, existed at the epoch when most of the European families inhabited the high countries in the peninsula of Hemus and Pindus, or whether they are later modifications resulting from different causes, among others, from the changes introduced by the Roman military colonies. The remaining roots have not been traced to their source; but from the analogy of geographical names, it is probable that they'are not widely different from others in the ancient languages of Thrace and Asia Minor. [B]We shall subjoin the proofs of these assertions, from which it may be inferred that the Albanian language is not only one of high antiquity, but serves to illustrate others of Pelasgo-Hellenic origin.[/B]
The Malic roots may be shown by the application of the digamma, the metathesis of the letter R, or by other transpositions peculiar to the jEolic dialect. Thus the Greek word trageirij to eat, becomes in the .K.olic form of the infinitive, tragen, and by the metathesis of the R, targen; hence the Albanian term darken, to eat. The pronoun I is expressed in the Albanian by mm and oune, which arc the same as the ion and ionga of the Beotians, and the egon of the .Kalians. [B]The head or bale in Albanian corresponds with the bala of the Macedonians, and thepAofaof the Beotians, which are both jftolisms that were used instead of Kephala. [/B][B]The Albanian name for Slavonia is tichienia, the country of strangers, from skenos, the jEolic form of xenos; the .V'.olic word skip/ios, a sword, may account for Skipatar, an Albanian name of which the meaning has not been explained.[/B] The digamma appears in many words; thus vraam, to kill or injure, from raiein; vel, oil, from
Kynthas in the island of Uelos, Zakynthos, the island of Arakynthos in Attica, Anakynthos in Acamania, Berckynthos in Crete, Idem in Phrygia, from Kyntha, a sacred hill. < See Palmier de Crcntesmcuil, Urzcia Antiqua, p. 54, 55.
Connexion lx?tweea the Albanian and jEoUnn.
elaion; verbuem, to bereave* orb&n (Larinj) verra, fine weather, from ear or er, the spring; in like manner Voioussa, the name of a river, the ancient Nomcsof Ma I -^ous or Aious. [B]The Albanian is by means of its jEolic characminnTnn' j ter connected with the Macedonian; Loos, the Macedonian rnouiiH. I name for the month of August, corresponds with the Loonarof the Albanians; the first and second brit, the names of two months in Albanian, recall to our recollection the beriiios and hyperberitios in the Macedonian calendar. Krios, a word used by the Macedonian peasants, is analogous to the Albanian kirsouer, for ouer signifies a season.[/B]11 We have •entered on a subject, which cannot at present be fully treated; no vocabulary of the Albanian language exists; the indigenous names of all the months have not hitherto been collected.
Connexion I ^e Pe'asg"lc character has been evinced by a curious and wWi'liieVe- important fact; the names of several Greek divinities, according tesgic- I to Herodotus, are derived from the Pelasgic. [COLOR="red"][B]Thus in the
Albanian language, deet signifies the sea; hence probably Tethys the goddess of the ocean; dee the earth, hence Deo and Demeter, surnames of Ceres; Mre, the air, Hert, Juno; dieli, the sun, Delios, a surname of Apollo, the god of the sun ; vranie, a cloud, uranos, the heavens[/B][/COLOR]. Herodotus mentions Juno only among these divinities; [B][COLOR="red"]but it is enough to show that the most ancient Greek words have been preserved in the Albanian language[/COLOR][/B]; besides, Herodotus, from his own confession, was ignorant of the Pelasgic ; having said that the Pelasghi were of a different origin from the Greeks,.he tells us in another part of his work that they were the ancestors of the Athenians, Arcadians, and Thessalonians; it may therefore be reasonably believed that the historian has accommodated the mythology of the Pelasghi to that of the Egyptians and Lybians. The Pelasghi were supposed in ancient times to have been the first who ruled over Greece; they inhabited Pindus at a very early period ; the Pelasgic Dodona was the centre of their worship, and their descendants were the people who styled themNamesoftJic i selves JLutochtones or Aborigines. It is not wonderful that an old, I rude, and monosyllabical dialect, although of semi-Greek ori
gin, appeared unintelligible to an Ionian like Herodotus; the very name of the Pelasghi, as well as those of Pella, Pellene, Pelion, Peligni, and twenty others of places and people, may explain the old Macedonian and Th«ssalonian word pela, a rock or stone.' It is vain to regard the hypothesis of different writers, or to make the Pelasghi come from the sources of the Nile, the summits of Caucasus, or the tower of Babel; they were in reality the ancestors of the Greeks, the people of the old rock, the stone builders; their worship was wholly European, and founded on the belief of a supreme being and inherent powers in nature.
The names which geography, and particularly physical geography, have consecrated, may be considered the most important documents of primitive history, or of history anterior to chronology. Men, long before they thought of computing years, or arranging events according to the order ol their dates, designated by local denominations, taken from the dialects in which they spoke, all the objects that surrounded them; the mountains that bounded their horizon, the rivers in which their thirst was quenched, the village that gave them birth, and the family or tribe to which they belonged; had that geographical nomenclature been preserved pure and entire, a map of the world might have been obtained, more valuable far than all the universal histories.
Connexion ^ *8 °est, in order to discover the Hellenic structure of the
Wml Hi.. 11,1 Albanian language, to compare words that are not of common
1 ' occurrence, or such as are used in dialects little known; thus
groua,-A woman, corresponds with Grain, a Grecian woman; kourm, the
h See Usscrius, dc Maccd. ct anno aolati. ' Sturtz, de Lingua Macedonia. T^elrcs
Chiliad. II. c. XV1L
body, with kormos, a throne or trunk of a tree; kfmnde, the nose, with chondrot, cartilage; dora, the hand, with doron, the palm of the hand; ziza, a nipple, with tilhe, a nurse; groust, the fist, with gronthos; cambe, the foot, with .'••.-«i/»:. flexion; ngrane, to nourish, wilh graien; flacha, a flame, with phlox; krupa, salt, with kruos, crystal; slepei, a house, with stephos, a roof or covering1; brecheir, hail, with brechein, to wet, and with cir, a tempest or thunder; iourte, prudent, with iotes, prudence (Homer;) in, young, with ear or err the spring; koitou, I remember, with kotheoo, I think; tie, an egg, with oveon, •a word used in the Cretan dialect; chala, poverty, with chalein, to want; skepetim, thunder, with skepto, I fall with force; phare, a division or tribe, with pharos, the pars of the Latins; prink, a father or chief, with prin, before (primus;) frike, fear, -with phrix, trembling; bastakes, a Beotian term for a farm, with basline, a rural domain in Albanian. We have cited such examples as are not very obvious: the relation between them is not at first discovered ; but a great number of analogies more evident and more easily traced, must strike those who study the language. Many Albanian and Greek words differ only in their grammatical forms; thus/mm and piein, to drink, pounouem andponein, to labour, zieim and zeein, to boil; luem, to anoint, loam, to wash, and loudn, to bat he; piluem^ to ask, and pythesthai; prim and proienal, to go before; the prepositions, rule, within, (»u/o,) paa, without, and apo, from, me and meta, with; the adverbs mo and me, not; and other instances too numerous to be adduced.
[B]It is observable that some Albanian terms are Hellenic compounds, although there are no single words corresponding with them in the Greek.[/B] Panoni, the Albanian term for anarchy', is formed from the preposition pa, which is not different from the Greek apo, and nomos, law; it may therefore be considered the same, as the old or obsolete Greek term aponomia. The Greek wprd hippos, a horse, was probably derived from the Albanian verb, hippune, to mount or leap; the names of mountains and people in primitive Greece, were perhaps of Albanian origin.
The Albanian words derived from the Latin might have been , Conn(,,ioll introduced at different epochs; at all events it is not easy to I withine determine the relation between these two languages; some ety- ' Ln"n' mologists observe an analogy in the jfiolic, the Albanian and ancient Latin; but much of the resemblance between the two last may be attributed to the mixture of the Celtic with the Albanian and old Italian dialects; besides, the Roman military colonies must have disseminated the Romano, ruslica in Illyria and Epirus. If the history of the Tyrrhenians and other Italian tribes were not involved in obscurity, more accurate notions might be formed on the subject, but it is easy to adduce several instances, by which [B][COLOR="red"]it must appear that the Albanian is connected with the dialects of ancient Italy. [/COLOR][/B]Kiel, the heavens, ccelum; lioume, a river, jlumen; mik, a friend, omicui; »ok, a companion or ally, socius; luke, a marsh or lake, locus; flocltele, hair, floccits; liyta, war or struggle, lucta; pisch, a fish, pisds; pecme and poina, fruits; remb, a branch, ramus; fdkic, the face, fades; inartuem, to marry, mariiare; turbuem, to trouble, turbare; pulchnem, to please, piastre; descirucm, to desire, desiiterare; kiam, to cry, (chiamar,-) vape, moderately • warm, vupidus; spess, thick, spissus; cundra, against, contra; per, by or through,per. It may be remarked that the Latinisms or Italianisms in the Albanian are very like those in the Wallachian, or Daco-Roman; that cir-. cumstancc alone may, in some measure, show how long the Albanian has been connected with the Latin. The word mi expresses the comparative in the Albanian, and is analogous to the irregular comparatives minor and melior of the Latins. Ssum, the term for the superlative, (or according to its pronunciation, scJioume) appears to be the same as summe.
To ascertain the Celticisms and Germanisms in the Albanian . cettkimw is by no means an unprofitable task ; they cannot be attributed I ^cirruMU to accidental causes, for .these words form a part of a numerous '
class in different languages; thus larlli in Albanian, lard in French and English; lardum in Latin, lar, fat in Celtic, and larix, laeriche, larch, laerke, a resinous tree in Latin, German, English and Danish, indicate a resemblance between the northern and western tongues. Bret, a king, breteri, a kingdom, brii, a horn, bar, grass, fires, a girdle, droe, dread; brittune, to diffuse or radiate, and bleem, to buy, are evidently Celto-Gallic words. Miel, flour, buck, bread, hethe, fever, goistie, a feast, chierra,n car; cand, an angle; gind, kind, tim, smoke, (dimma in Swedish) aim, a shower, nota, night,- dera, a gate, ti/, a star in the dialect of Epirus; (ild, fire in Danish,) bir, a son; baern,bairns, children in Danish and Scotch; oulk, a wolf, fiou, eyes, ve, an oath, and many others are almost literally German or Gothic. It is difficult to account for these facts from the migrations of different people, but they may be easily explained, if we admit that the ancient population of Hemus was made up of Celtic, Slavonic and German tribes, as well as Pelasgian, Hellenic and Asiatic.
We now come to the third division of the Albanian language, which consists of unknown roots, or at least of such as have not hitherto been explained; we might at first have been apt to leave the examination of the subject to orientalists, -and to suppose that these words were exclusively of Asiatic origin, because they are apparently foreign to every known European language. But as we have occasionally been able to account for some of these roots, and to connect them, in spite of their irregularity, with the Hellenic and other European dialects, [COLOR="red"][B]we were led to conclude that the primitives of a pure and indigenous language like the Albanian,must have been at one time common to the Thracian, Illyrian, Phrygian and Lydian[/B][/COLOR], and that the unknown roots are not the least valuable part of each or all these languages. T[B][COLOR="red"]he Albanian, according to this hypothesis, might become as useful, in an historical point of view, as the language of Orpheus or Deucalion, and might enable us to explain the meaning attached to the names of many ancient people and places.[/COLOR][/B] We have been able in the present imperfect state of our information to interpret some of these words ; [COLOR="red"][B]thus, it is likely that Mount Scardus has been so called from its indented peaks, for scarra and card signify a saw, (sierra.)"[/B][/COLOR] The Scomius is a high mountain (scume mal;) the passes of Sure i in Hemus extend across small hills, (sukhe.) The Oeagrius, or Hebrus, is the river near wild woods, the Pontus abounds in marshes, the Dryn is shaded with forests. Vedi, (Aous) signifies water, and the Voioussa, a never-failing stream. [B][COLOR="Red"]Mount Bora has derived its name from its snows, (bora or More,) and the Bernus probably from perrune[/COLOR][/B], a torrent; Candavia is a rugged country, and in ancient times it was traversed by winding or angular roads, (cando-ign,") But, without entering into more minute details, if the names of the districts, mountains, and rivers in the country between the Achelous on the south, [B][COLOR="red"]Mount Balle on the north-west, and Scomius on the north, are for the most part of Albano-Illyrian origin, it may be allowed that the study of the Albanian is connected with that of geography.[/COLOR][/B] It might furnish us, too, with some interesting ethnographical indications, and serve to explain the different names that have been applied to the Albanians.
- [B][COLOR="red"]A native of the country calls himself an tfrvenesce, according pitars'.'&'c. I to Ibarth, and a Skipitur, according to Thunmann.[/COLOR][/B] The last ' name, it has been said, is derived from skip, which denotes the language; hence Skipitar, he who speaks Skip, and Skiperi, the country in which Skip is spoken; but no signification has been assigned to the word itself. Ancient geographers describe the Albanians as a mountainous and wandering people; early historians inform us that they became afterwards
k Diction. Epirot, Blanche, (Ibarthc) incorrectly called Biomli by Major LeakC. See vocabulary in Leakc's Researches in-Greece, and those by Thunmann and Pouqueville. MS. glossary in the library of the king of France. MS. Grammars—Idem.
a warlike nation, hence it may be thought more probable that Skipitar means an armed man, or one provided with a sword, or skiphos. The word Albanian, though long1 forgotten, is perhaps as ancient; the mount Albanus of Ptolemy is the Albia or Albion of Straboj and the commentators are not to be commended, who effaced the Albani and Albanopolis from the text of Ptolemy; with equal justice, all the Albas and Albani in Italy, Gaul and Spain might have- been obliterated from the ancient maps of these countries. Albhain in Gaelic, and Alb in Germanic, signify mountain pasturage; from such facts it may be inferred that the name of the Albani is indigenous and of very ancient date; it is also likely-that Arbenesce, or as it is written by the Byzantine historians, Arvanitae, is a corruption of Albaniue. The Turkish term Arnaut is perhaps derived from the SlavoIllyrian arvania, war or combat; if that be the case, Arnaut is a literal translation of Skipitar or Schypetar.
[B][COLOR="red"]The names of the Illyrian'tribes appear to be of Albanian origin; the Parthini or Parthyni in Illyria, were the white or fair people, (i barthe,) and wholly distinct from the Parthians[/COLOR][/B]; the Dassaretes were isolated tribes, the Dalmates or Delmates, signify the young. There is a meaning in the names of many Albanian towns and districts; the port Eled or Elet. described by Scylax, is the genitive of Elea, which is mentioned by other writers. I[B][COLOR="red"]f so many geographical terms can be explained by means of the language •till spoken in ancient Illyria, why should its origin be sought in Caucasus?[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="red"][B]It may be of use to compare these indications with others obtained from the ancient Macedonian,[/B][/COLOR] and it may be better to confine our inquiries to the countries known to the Greeks than to examine the regions beyond the Euphrates, from which it is not likely much informalion can be gained concerning different European states, as the Maedi, Lydi, Pelasghi, Phryges or Vrighes.
[COLOR="Blue"][B]The unknown primitives in the Albanian are perhaps ancient Illyrian words; and if that opinion be correct, the inquiry may be limited to the countries within and near the boundaries of Illyria. It has been already seen that several Thracian words were not in use in Illyria and Macedonia, among others bria, a town, and para, a height or elevated place; it may be added that the terminations in issos, itza, dava, and ava, are most common in the Thraco-Getan dialects; and the Illyrian, if it did not form a separate class, was a distinct branch of the Thracian. It is not easy to account for the introduction of Strymon, a Slavonic word, and .the name of a river, (Strzumien, in Polish; Strcem, Strcemmen, Straum, &c. in Scandinavian;) to trace its connexion.with the Albanian is like an attempt to discover the original form of an edifice wholly in ruins. [/B][/COLOR][B][COLOR="Green"][B]The Dardano-Illyrians, who, according to an ancient tradition, were the ancestors of the tribes dispersed in Troas, Epirus, and Italy,TM might have been of Albanian origin; Ilion is an Albanian word which signifies a high place[/B][/COLOR][/B]; there was not only a small town in Macedonia, but a mountain of that name in Laconia; it is as rash to reject these indications as to found any conclusion on them, in the ^ present state of our knowledge or "ignorance; much greater information' must be obtained, before it can be determined whether the early population of Italy were descended from the Ombrici and Siculi of ancient Illyria, or connected with the 'foskes of modern Albania.
The Albanian language has been considered in its relation I Albanian to geography; some remarks may be made on its grammatical | Giammarstructure."
1 Tou, itar, and atar, are Albanian terminations, which denote a profession or trade; and th$y correspond with the ariusand tor of the Latins.
" Homer, Virgil, Pliny, Lycophron, 8cc. I am aware that the learned M. Niebuhr con•idered the migration of jfeneas a fable< but the migrations of the Dardani might have been true, independently of the poetical fictions with which they have been mixed.
• Oiservazione Grammaticale, by F. M. Lecce, Rome, 1716. Leake, Researches in Greece. Vater, Tables comparatives, &c. 1822. Vellara, Fragment. MS.
Vol. IV.—P

The Albanian has some resemblance to the Latin, the Greek and Slavonic; but it is not so rich as the two first, and its constructions are less varied than those in the last; it abounds in auxiliary words; thus to express the adjective idle, it is necessary to say, Te paa punt, (literally in Greek outoi apo ponou,) those without occupation. Its compound substantives are of two forms ; the one corresponds with the onus or ton of the Latins; the other with the erei or erie of the Germans. Thus from luftttj war is derived, luftetar, a warrior; and from bret, a king, breteteri, a kingdom ; but the most of the compound substantives are infinitives, preceded by the neuter article; te pym, signifies a drink, and is the same as if we said in Italian,t/ftewre, or in French, le boire. The physical terms are more numerous aud more varied than we might be apt to conclude from perusing the printed treatises on the subject; but there are comparatively few words that indicate the faculties or operations of the mind.
The article is generally put at the end of'the substantive; thus grout, woman, groueia, the woTnan,#ow, stone,gouri, the stone, barc/c, belly,barckou, the belly; but the same rule is not applicable to the adjective; mir, signifies good, and t mir, e mir, te mir, are the same word with the masculine, feminine, and neuter articles prefixed to it. The declension of the pronouns is regular, the first and second persons are in some respects analogous to the Latin. There are ten conjugations, but that number may be reduced to eight; they are distinguished by the infinitive; four terminate in am, em, im, and oum, or in the same manner as the four present tenses in the Armenian; two in one and oune, and two in le and re. The most of the present tenses end in agn, egn, ign, and ogn, and the greater number of preterites in ava, eva, iva, and ova. It is not unlikely that the Albanian verb is made'up of two distinct formations, introduced at different periods; the first or earliest ends in the four vowels, a, e, , o, the second must be attributed to successive additions or innovations; to distinguish the Pelasgo.ivili' from the Thracian terminations is the great difficulty in the study of the language. The infinitive is always preceded by the article me, when the sense is .active, and by meou, when the sense is passive or reciprocal. The imperfect, perfect, future, conditional, imperative and infinitive are formed by inflections, and the other tenses by means of the auxiliary verbs to have, and to be. The passive is formed by the verb to be and the infinitive of the active voice, which is changed into a supine by the omission of the article mi. .'
The Albanian grammar is remarkable for its originality; it may be considered a monument of the simplicity ofthe nation for which it was framed; such might have been the grammatical systems of Orpheus, Linus and Cadmus.
I The Albanian books published at Rome by the College «fe Propaganda fide, are printed in modern Italic characters with the addition of four other letters; the Albanians themselves make use of the modern Greek alphabet and the same four letters. But there is, if we may so term it, an ecclesiastical alphabet, which consists of thirty letters; and many of them are not unlike the Phenician, Hebrew, Armenian and Syriac characters; few of them have any resemblance with the Bulgarian or Mesogothic, and we look in vain for the Pelasgic, Etruscan or Runic letters. The ancient Albanian alphabet might have been altered by Christian priests, cither in the second century, when Christianity was introduced into the country, or in the ninth, when the Albanian church was united with that of Rome; but it is evident that the alphabet, even in its present shape, is derived from another much more ancient, and which at one period was used in Illyria, Macedonia and Epirus.
The national Albanian songs are illustrative of the manners of the people;, it might be worth while to know them, although they are for the most part written after the time of Scanderbeg. An examination of the inscriptions which in all likelihood exist in Upper Albania, might throw additional light.on the histqry and languages of ancient nations.
It is in the country of the Mirdites or in the town of Scutari, that the traveller may reasonably expect to gain information concerning the manners and-barbarous customs which the Illyrians have transmitted to their descendants, the Albanians. The divisions by cettas and pharos . were mixed with feudal customs by the Christian Albanians, c^£'u"1 who migrated into the kingdom of Naples; but in Albania itself ' P these institutions are more connected with the character of a democracy. All the cettas in the mountains of Upper and Mean Albania join in punishing murder, rape, and adultery; these crimes can only be avenged by the blood of the guilty; but theft is not a capital offence; he who steals an ox may escape punishment by paying a sum of money. In the rural assemblies, of the cettas the members often deliberate with their swords in their hands; some of the individuals mark their skin with gunpowder, that they may more readily know the cetta to which they belong; a similar practice existed among their ancestors, the Illyrians. The sacrifice of a , young woman, a wife and a mother, is recorded in their national ' SuPcretlUonlrsongs. Three brothers founded the town of Scutari, and interred their sister alive near the castle; the rural genii had assured them, if that condition were fulfilled, the town would be always abundantly supplied with provisions. The victim implored her husband (and he too was her brother) that she might be permitted to nurse her infant; her milk flowed miraculously through an aperture in the grave; and afterwards a never-failing fountain, efficacious in the cure of all diseases, rose from her ashes. The Schypetar converses occasionally with the Mires or good goddesses,0 and the mountaineer in the interior of Upper Albania believes, like the Servian, in supernatural prophetesses or Vyles;' witches, though greatly feared, are well known under their ancient Latin, and perhaps Thessalian name, of itriga. Christian and Mahometan women in Albania attend funeral processions, and make the air resound with their inhuman yells. The Albanian hunters and shepherds have many traditions concerning wild beasts, the habitations of souls banished from eternal repose; but it is possible by means of enchantments and anathemas to dislodge these wretched spirits from their prison house.
The fishermen in the north of lake Scodra take a kind of fish, • which they call scoranza, in the following manner:—a species JIf°fl9 of crow that is held sacred, arrives in great flocks at certain sea- ' sons of the year;—the fishermen cast their nets in the rivers and lakes;— the Iman or Greek priest pronounces his benediction;—the crows, it is said, remain while that ceremony lasts, at the edge of the water or on the branches of trees without making the least noise. The consecrated grain is afterwards thrown into the stream; it floats on the water, and attracts many fish to the surface; then, and not till then, the crows dart on them with hoarse-sounding cries, and the frightened fish are easily caught in the nets; a portion of the draught is regularly set apart for the crows and priests; and these animals seldom fail to accompany the fishermen.
The district of Montenegro or the Slavonic Czerna-Gora, i Monten the Turkish Kara-Tag or the Albanian Mal-Isi, is about 150 '
° These divinities have been considered the Moi/«u or fates of the ancient Greeks, the n»mes of both are pronounced in the same manner. Although the Mires worshipped by the Athenians and the inhabitants of Hellas might have been the Mofou, it does not follow that they were the same with the Illyrian Mires. Mir, with the articles, i, r, it, affixed to it, is the Albanian adjective for bonus, a, tint, and corresponds with the ancient Greek word fatfot or i >.•(..", desirable.
f Vylc is of the same class as Si-bylla, or according to the Greek pronunciation, si-vj'llaj -•i is an abbreviation of tio, an /I'olic word, which signifies then; si-bylle is then a divine or godlike ryle. Wyll or gwyll is a Welsh word for a spectre or sorceress. Vala, of which the genitive is vacta, means, in Icelandic, a supernatural being with the gift of prophecy. square leagues or 1350 square miles in superficies; it is inhabited by a robust, warlike and turbulent population of 58,732 individuals ; but in that number are included the inhabitants of five Servian-Greek villages, or 13,600 souls, and of five Albanian catholic villages, or 6880 persons. These villagers are the allies of the Montenegrines; thus the inhabitants on a surface of 96 square leagues or 864 square miles in that district, are not more than 38,252. The territory is divided into four nn/o*,« and governed by a sovereign council; the members are the captains or sardars of each no/a, the knez or chiefs of every village, and those among the aged, who are most revered by the community. The assembly meets in the burgh of Cettina; the vladika or president does not possess much power, and is often restrained in the exercise of his just rights by the bishop of the diocese, who resides at the fortified convent of Stagnovich in the country that once belonged to the Venetians, and is at present attached to the Austrian empire.' All the men in the district, from the bishop to the shepherd, are soldiers, and all of them are provided with fire-arms. The ambitious Mahmoud-Pacha was slain by Montenegrine troops, who have often defeated the Ottoman satraps of Scutari. The present bishop, observing Austria and France divide the spoils of Venice, made himself master of the town and harbour of Budua,but being unable to contend against these powers, he relinquished his conquest. The Montenegrines are vindictive, jealous, and barbarous, but they are hospitable; their intercourse with one another is frequent, for they are all engaged in the same profession; patriotism is • not unknown amongst them; they believe in communications ' with a world of spirits, and hold converse with the shades of their ancestors who wander in the clouds. The people are Slavonians by birth, they speak a Servian dialect, and form, to the great regret of the patriarch of Constantinople, a part of the Servian and Russian church. Their mountains are fertile in pasture,, and in many places covered with flocks, which are exported into neighbouring countries; the plains do not yield much corn, but a great quantity of wine. The allied districts on the north of the lake Scutari are more fruitful, the mountains are better wooded, and the rivers better stored with: fish; the inhabitants are not so dispersed as the Montenegrines; the former live near one another, the others reside on their farms or domains. The free country which we have described is of small extent, but it and Servia may perhaps accelerate the dissolution of the Ottoman empire in the west.
I Some remarks have been already made on the physical geography of Dalmatia, which is divided into two parts; the inland is possessed by the Ottomans, the maritime by the Austrians; an account of the one shall be given in our description of Hungary; the other or the Turkish territory has successively been called the kingdom of Roma and the dutchy of St. Saba, hence the terms hertzegovina, a dutchy, andAerseA, a duke, have been introduced into geography. The north-east extremity, where the Moraca waters its solitary valley, is inaccessible to
I travellers; but Tribunia is built in a calcareous and fertile country that is better known; its population amounts to 9000 souls; the most of the inhabitants were at one time Serbes, they have since become Mahometans; so great is their fanaticism, that the Catholic
Rivera with- I DisnoP of the city is compelled to reside at Ragusa. There ouiembou. I are no outlets for the rivers in the districts of Trebigny and chare*. ' Popovoj the latter is fertile in oil, corn and wine. The Trebinitza, after having received the waters of the Kliutch, throws itself into the river of Popovo, or, as appears to us more likely, it is then known by
1 1vellio, Montenegrin, Anuales des Voyages, 1. 11. p. 381. Adrien Dunn', sur le Montenegro, ibid. t. XV. p. 119.
' Notice sur le Montenegro, dans les Annales des Voyages, t. IV. p. 220. Viala, Voyage dans le Montenegro.
that name, and directs its course towards Narenta; obstructed by the mountains, it loses itself in a small lake or gulf; that supposition) however, is at variance with the opinions of the Ragusans, who maintain that the Otnbla forms a subterranean passage for the lake of Popovo." The whole of the water is not discharged into the gulf; the fields in the neighbourhood are inundated during the winter season;1 a pestilential vapour rises from the marshes on the upper banks of the Narenta; and at no great distance from them is situated the flourishing but ill-fortified town of Mostar, which itpeopled by 12,000 inhabitants; its trade consists in arms; the swords of Mostar are not inferior to those of Damascus. The place has derived its name from a stone bridge of a single arch fifty yards in width; it was built on the river according to the plan of a joiner, a native of the town, after the Turkish architects had given it up in despair.0 The country in the vicinity of Mostar is covered with orchards,, olive trees and vineyards. The town of Livno or Hliuno is situated in the high districts; it is surrounded by a rampart and a ditch, defended by three castles, and commands the most important entrance into Bosnia; kullas or forts are built at regular distances along the roads, which.arc very bad;1 independently of their natural disadvantages, they are in many places strewed with trees or obstructed by mounds; carabines are fired on every side at the approach of strangers, a sort of salutation with which they would willingly dispense; the Turco-Bosnian garrisons are the most barbarous troops in the pay of the Sultan.
Bosnia is watered by a great many rivers; the most of them • B^,, tlld , flow towards the Save, and divide the country into a number of Turk»h narrow valleys; the land, although not much assisted by art, for I roa *• the inhabitants are indolent and barbarous, produces abundant crops; the most fertile districts are those on the banks of the Drinna, the Verbagna and Korovitza; the soil in Bosnia Proper, Croatia and Rascia is almost every where of a fine quality; the vallies and the sides of the hills are covered with a thick layer of vegetable mould; is lighter on the summits, but not unfruitful.' Such are the remarks of a French traveller, but they have been modified by a German author who frequently visited the country, and concluded from his observations that the greater part of the land in Bosnia is better adapted for the rearing of cattle than the culture of corn. Thyme, rosemary and other aromatic plants cover the rocky • summits of the mountains; cherries, plums, pears, quinces, JScu!>en«. nuts and walnuts grow in the northern part of the country; apri- ' cots, peaches, figs, and almonds are the productions of the southern districts. The trees, though seldom cut, and never grafted, produce fruit of a good quality; the pears and apples in particular are remarkable for their size and agreeable taste. The grape seldom arrives at maturity in the mountainous districts, but it ripens in the country on the banks of the Drinna. Slivovitza or a strong dxink made of plums, is taken by Christians and Turks, as a substitute for wine ; and all the lands in the neighbourhood of the villages are planted with plum trees. Pekmes, a sweet juice of the consistence of honey, is extracted from pears.
The vegetables cultivated in the gardens are cucumbers, gourds, red and white beetrave, beans, onions and melongena; cabbage is the chief article of food during winter; it is kept in casks in a state of fermentation. The different kinds of corn are wheat, maize and barley; the quanti- • Com ty produced exceeds greatly what is necessary for the consump- ' tiou of the people, and the surplus, of which the value amounts nearly to
• The Ombla, the rival of the Timavus, is called the Arion by Pouqueville, but the Arion. Wm probably confounded with another river by the copyist of Scylax.

I maintain a firm stand regarding the Illyrian continuity theory, I believe Albanians do have relations to Illyrians whether in genetics or language. Nevertheless, this is not sufficient to say with certainty that Albanians derive only from Illyrians. South Illyria and Epirus (that corresponds with modern Albanian territory) was a place when many kindred languages meet and converged with one another. For instance, we do have some Etruscan words that can be explained through Albanian. I shall open a new promising perspective: Why some pre-Hellenic and 'Hellenic' gods and place names are etymologized in Albanian by some scholars? A number of scholars maintained the view that consider Illyrians as a kindred with Pelasgian (or pre-Hellenic peoples of Hellas). If this theory is correct, then it is added greatly in favour of Illyrian descedancy of Albanian.
We know that the last "islands" in the sea of assimilation by barbarian waves through centuries were Southern Illyria, Epirus and Macedonia because they were well-established military and economically states that had a glorious background. The populations of those regions moved in all sides, some went in mountainous remote lands, while others co-operated with the new masters and became vassals of them. That is why Albanian has some ancient Macedonian words and perhaps is the same that some Illyrian words can be found in todays Macedonian.

Epirot 08-17-2010 09:55 AM

I shall enumerate some of most representative facts about Illyro-Albanian linguistic relationship.

[B]Illyrian geographical toponymes:[/B]

1. [B][I]Ulcinium[/I][/B]= Ulk (Ujk) that means 'volf'.
2. [B]Dardania[/B] = 'Pear land' (Dard = Dardhë (pear); An=anë (side);
3. [B]Dalmatia[/B] = Delme that means 'flock of sheeps'
4. [B]Parthia[/B] is transparently equal with Alb. 'Bardh' means 'White'
5. [B]Scardus[/B] = [B][I]Sharrë[/I][/B] that fits perfectly to the rugged relief of Scardus hills.
6. Troy = Troje (pluaral) > Truall (sing.) which means 'land'. The Troy's city was founded most likely by Dardanian emigrants that settled there. Even the mythological foundation of Troy was owed to Dardanians. That's why Homer use often that epithet to Trojan heroes.

Some anthroponymes

1. [B][I]Hyllus[/I][/B] is by all means the same with Alb. '[B]Star[/B]'. Even north Albanian language has preserved a very close form of that: HYLLI I MENGJESIT (a XIX century magazine in Shkodra) - the star of morning.
2. [B]Bardulis[/B] is without doubt a pure Albanian name that is composed of two-words: [B]Bardh(ë) + Yll = The white star. [/B]

Вардарец 08-17-2010 10:50 AM


1. Ulcinium= Are you speaking for Ulcinj? Then please consider that the montenegrin(serbo-croat) word for wolf is vuk, which is very similar to ulk. In Macedonian/Bulgarian the word is volk, so the montenegrins didn't borrow that from the albanians in the area.

2. Dardania = Dar, the slavic word for gift (we call Alexander - Aleksan[B]dar[/B])

4. Parthia = Is located near Albania in the Caucasus


Now, i am looking for some answers of some questions, because, so far, in my life no albanian was able to give me precise answer.

From what i see, i can't see real connection between Illyrians and Albanians in your posts. All is blank, you either speak of Illyrians, Epirotes and Dardanians, or Albanians.

[B][SIZE="3"]#1 [/SIZE][/B]What am i looking for is: Can you give me one simple quote that is before the 19 century, where some Albanian states that they are descendants from Illyrians. It doesn't have to be from Albanian even, it can be from anyone, so please provide it for me.


[B][SIZE="3"]#2[/SIZE][/B] I'm looking for explanation of this map


How can Albanians and Greeks label Macedonians and the rest of the Slavic speaking peoples in the Balkans as ethnic Slavs and newcomers (compared to them), while they claim to be untouched by the Slavs who entered the area - something is fishy here.

Hey! Look at the slavic tribes of Ezerites (in the Peloponessus).
As SoM said:
Oserites in Illyrian, lake. Ezero in slavic, lake.
Ezerites... what could it mean.


[B][SIZE="3"]#3 [/SIZE][/B]I'm looking for a quote, where Georgia Kastriot (Or someone from his period) states that he is Albanian. To specify, i don't want a quote where Skenderbeg is presented as ruler of Albania/Epirus, but for a quote from his period (or before 19th century) where someone states that he is Albanian, you know, ethnic one.
His father lineage comes from Kostur (Kastoria) and the lineage from his mother is from Tetovo Polog valley (his mother named Vojsava, a non-albanian).


[SIZE="3"][B]#4[/B][/SIZE] I am looking for a quote where it is clearly written that Albanians live in Kosovo and/or Kumanovo, Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar and Struga regions in Macedonia. As far as i know, Albanians only lived around Debar (Diber in Albanian).

As i know, Albanians were given lands in this regions as present from the Turks for accepting Islam. Where are the Albanian peoples in these regions prior the Ottoman conquest of the Balkan peninsula? Please elaborate.

And please, i don't want quotes where Illyrians, Dardanians or Thracians are living in the above mentioned regiones.


[B]#5 [/B]What happened to the Albanians of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, eastern & northern Montenegro and central/northern Serbia. You know, all these countries + Albania were making the Illyrian region in ancient times.

As i remember, there was the Illyrian kingdom in the 17th century (located around Slovenia).
As i remember, there was the Croatian national revival under the name "Ilirski pokret"
As i remember, and as other member of the forum stated, there are books from the 16th century where instead of Serbian/Croatian it is written "Illyrian language".

Where are the Albanians in these events? I think no where.

[B]Believe me, your "Illyrian" connection was given to you by the Austrians, [U]who wanted to deprive the Croats from claiming their native land by labeling them as newcomers Slavs[/U][/B]. [U]After the "Ilirski pokret" by the croats, the theories of the massive "slav migrations in the balkans" started to appear[/U].Rings any bells? Prior to that event, i haven't seen any linking of the Illyrians and Albanians, no quotes that support your claims.


Now, what answers can you give to the 5 questions above? I would really like to hear from you!

Epirot 08-17-2010 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=Вардарец;67418]Parthia = Is located near Albania in the Caucasus[/QUOTE]

I wasn't talking about Persian province of Parthia but for an Illyrian tribe that use to live in todays central Albania.

[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]The Parthini or Partheni or Peerthenetai[/B][/COLOR] (Greek Παρθῖνοι, Παρθηνοί) [73] [B]were Illyrians[/B] , part of the Taulantii[74] [B]who may be placed to the north in the mountainous[75] neighborhood of Epidamnus[/B], and thus, next to the Taulantii.[/QUOTE]

I just like to open a short parenthesis that some thought the name of Albanians as a translated Latin form of 'Parthini' (which in Alb. means 'Bardhë). The indo-european -Alb root means the same.

[QUOTE]Believe me, your "Illyrian" connection was given to you by the Austrians, who wanted to deprive the Croats from claiming their native land by labeling them as newcomers Slavs. After the "Ilirski pokret" by the croats, the theories of the massive "slav migrations in the balkans" started to appear.Rings any bells? [/QUOTE]

How do you expect to believe you when you afford no source that our Illyrian connection was granted by Austrians?! In order to convince about your claims you have to find some modern foreign historians that consider Illyrian theory as a fallacious one that was made in Austria....

[QUOTE]How can Albanians and Greeks label Macedonians and the rest of the Slavic speaking peoples in the Balkans as ethnic Slavs and newcomers (compared to them), while they claim to be untouched by the Slavs who entered the area - something is fishy here.[/QUOTE]

The comparison you draw between Greece and Albania is totally wrong. Greece was touched more than every country in Balkans by Slavic invasions. That is a fact and I have a plethora of stuff to provide my opinion. And let me inform you that I never claim that Albania was untouched by Slavic waves. I just pointed out that those Slavic invasions touched less Albania because of its geographical position as being the most mountainous region in all Balkans.

[QUOTE]I'm looking for a quote, where Georgia Kastriot (Or someone from his period) states that he is Albanian.[/QUOTE]

We should ask to the Ottoman sources for a bit of help in your questions. Ottomans who knew their opponent labeled him as an 'Arnaut'. I do not think that it is wise to doubt some things that are well-attested by hundreds of sources...

[QUOTE][B]His father lineage comes from Kostur (Kastoria)[/B] and the lineage from his mother is from Tetovo Polog valley (his mother named Vojsava, a non-albanian).[/QUOTE]

Any evidence about his father lineage coming from Kostur? Interestingly, his best biographer (Marin Barleti) never mention any indication of Kostur!

[QUOTE]I am looking for a quote where it is clearly written that Albanians live in Kosovo and/or Kumanovo, Skopje, Tetovo, Gostivar and Struga regions in Macedonia.[/QUOTE]

Since my time is very limited to give response to all of your requests I'll take as an enough proof the following source:

[QUOTE]Uskup is a stern place with a breath of the mountains upon it. It is but an eight hours’ journey from Salonica, but, thanks to the restrictions of travel and intercourse, wholly free of a Levantine atmosphere. [COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="2"]It is peopled principally by Arnauts – as the Turks call the Albanians[/SIZE][/B][/COLOR] – and Slavs, both men of character, though their morals are of a peculiar code.
(The Balkan trial [i.e. trail]Autorzy Frederick Moore, pg.185[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]As i know, Albanians were given lands in this regions as present from the Turks for accepting Islam. Where are the Albanian peoples in these regions prior the Ottoman conquest of the Balkan peninsula? Please elaborate.[/QUOTE]

Do not make an assumption! Saying that Turks gave lands for all Albanians that admitted Islam isn't accurate at all. Those Albanians who chose to convert in Islam were ""liberated"" from some taxes and tributes. Before coming of the Turks, all of todays Greece was peopled mostly by Albanians, was not? Do you think that Albanians were settled here only because they admitted Islam, don't you?

[QUOTE]What happened to the Albanians of Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, eastern & northern Montenegro and central/northern Serbia. You know, all these countries + Albania were making the Illyrian region in ancient times.[/QUOTE]

1. Some Albanian elements were able to hold their identity and to withstand assimilation into Slavs in Hercegovina up to the XVIII century.
I shall present some proofs that Albanian boundaries reaches as far as Hercegovina:

[QUOTE]The Gheghides, who boast of having numbered among them such a hero as Scanderbeg, unite, according to the learned topographer of Greece (Colonel Leake), “the cruelty of the Albanian to the dulness of the Bulgarian.” They have long enjoyed a greater share of independence, under the Pashas of Scodra, than any other of the Albanian tribes. They are equally good soldiers with the latter, and have preserved more of their natural stubbornness, from the fact of their having been less often employed as such by the Turks. [COLOR="red"][B]Their country extends from the frontier of the Austrian territory of Cattaro round the Montenegro, which may be considered an independent state; and, following the ridges which unite it to Mount Scardus, [SIZE="2"]it reaches the Herzegovina[/SIZE], [/B][/COLOR]while it is bounded on the south by the river Drino. Scutari, or Scodra, is their chief town, and Dulcigno, Alessio, and Durazzo belong to them.

James Henry Skeene:
The Albanians


2. Raguza:

[QUOTE][COLOR="red"][B]By the early fourteenth century there are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence[/B][/COLOR] in the mountains of [B]Montenegro, and as far north as the [COLOR="red"]Ragusan hinterland[/COLOR][/B].

KOSOVO A SHORT HISTORY, Noel Malcolm, 1999, pg. 28[/QUOTE]

3. Montenegro:

[QUOTE]The [B]Montenegrins[/B], who are the tallest people in Europe… are linguistically Serbs, [COLOR="red"][B]but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking[/B][/COLOR], the only real differences being those of language and religion

`Races of Europe’ Carlton S. Coon Chapter 14:The Greeks 1939[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]M.E. Durham (1863-1944), who travelled widely in Albania and Montenegro and devoted much time to the study of Montenegrin and Albanian tribes, came to the conclusion that [COLOR="red"][B]the Montenegrin is not so much a Slav as a Slavized descendant of the older inhabitants, i.e., of Vlachs, and Albanians [/B][/COLOR](see Some Tribal Origins, Laws, and Customs in the Balkans, London, 1928, PP. 13-59).

[B][COLOR="red"]That the Montenegrin tribes were originally Albanian tribes was already indicated by K. Jirecek[/COLOR][/B], "Albanien in der Vergangenheit," Illyrisch-Albanische Forschungen, (Munchen und Leipzig 1916, p. 69).

The marked distinction between the Serbs and the Montenegrins was pointed out by Prof. Savo Birkovic in a recent work: 0 postanku i rasvoju Crnogorske nacje, Graficki Zavod, Titograd, 1980.

4. Sandjak of Novi Pazar


[QUOTE]"NOVI PAZAR, no’ve pa-zar’ (formerly, Raska or Rashka; ancient Rascia), a city in Yugoslavia, situated on the Raska (Rashka) river, approximately 115 miles (185 km) directly south of Belgrade (Beograd). The population consists mainly of Greek Orthodox Serbs and [COLOR="red"][COLOR="Blue"][B]Muslim Albanians."[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR]

(~The encyclopedia Americana, Volume 20, 2000, pg. 511)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Can you give me one simple quote that is before the 19 century, where some Albanian states that they are descendants from Illyrians. It doesn't have to be from Albanian even, it can be from anyone, so please provide it for me.[/QUOTE]

Here you have it:

[QUOTE] Since Mr Hubener is passing through here on his return from Holland, I asked him to get hold of a manuscript in the King's Library, which I am sending back to you with thanks, and I have the honour of writing to you at the same time. I was very pleased to hear that you have received a book and a Dictionary of the Albanian Language. By it we see what the language of the ancient Illyrians was like. I nonetheless notice that there is much Latin in it. Attiyne for "our father" corresponds to the Scythian languages. It would also seem that there are small traces of words which are like German, such as seet for "earth," Enandeyenée "to pardon," and ndetekech "in temptation."

[...] On this occasion, I would beg you, Sir, to send me the Lord's Prayer in the[B][COLOR="blue"] Epirotic (Albanian) language[/COLOR][/B] in an interlinear version and would be obliged to you if you could add the Credo, if possible.

(Hanover, 28 December 1711)
… The modern European alphabets are derived from Latin, with the exception of the two Slavic ones: Cyrillic and so-called Glagolitic. Some authors later attributed these to Saint Jerome who was of Illyrian origin, but falsely so, as if the ancient Illyrian language were some sort of Slavic. But the Slavs were late to arrive in Illyria, not before the age of Justinian. The ancient Illyrians were of Celtic origin. They used a language closely related to Germanic and Gaulish. [COLOR="blue"][B]It is evident that relics of this are preserved in the modern language, in particular in that of the Epirots, of which I have seen specimens published.[/B][/COLOR] [I][B]Nowadays they generally call the Slavic language Illyrian because the Slavs settled in Illyria[/B][/I]. …

Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz:
Correspondence on the Albanian Language[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]I would now like to turn to the actual history of the [B][COLOR="blue"]Albanians and of the country they inhabit. They are the descendents of the ancient Illyrians[/COLOR][/B], whereas their neighbours, the Vlachs, whose ancient history I will deal with later, are the children of the Thracians. I will try to prove these statements as best I can.

Johann Thunmann:
On the History and Language of the Albanians and Vlachs

For a further reading follow: [url][/url][/QUOTE]

Bill77 08-17-2010 07:29 PM

[QUOTE=Вардарец;67418] Believe me, your "Illyrian" connection was given to you by the Austrians, who wanted to deprive the Croats from claiming their native land by labeling them as newcomers Slavs. After the "Ilirski pokret" by the croats, the theories of the massive "slav migrations in the balkans" started to appear.Rings any bells?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Epirot;67434] How do you expect to believe you when you afford no source that our [B]Illyrian connection was granted by Austrians[/B]?! In order to convince about your claims [B]you have to find some modern foreign historians that consider Illyrian theory as a fallacious one that was made in Austria....[/B] [/QUOTE]

Albanians can thank the London conference on December 16 1912 and inparticulor the Austrians for there state.


And it was not till the end of May 1913, the ambassadors determined the frontiers of Albania.





There for considering that Albania was formed as a state (Thanks to the Austrians) and its frontiers were designed by Western Ambassadors in this London Conference, It is plausible What Vardarec may say, to have substance to it.

Soldier of Macedon 08-17-2010 07:57 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]And I am left far from being convinced with your hypothesis of non-Illyrian origin of the Albanians. This was also an excellent opportunity for you to corroborate with valid proofs your doubts about Illyro-Albanian connection.[/QUOTE]
That's not quite the way it works, although I find the replicated terminology amusing. The thread was created for you to prove something, you haven't done it, and I think I have been quite clinical in deconstructing your arguments.
[QUOTE]I mean you never cited a single modern authority in history that deny Illyrian ancestry of Albanians.[/QUOTE]
I don't think there is a need to cite a modern authority when you can't even produce a single ancient or medieval reference to an Albanian-Illyrian connection.
[QUOTE]There are more evidences that goes in favour of Illyrian essence of Albanians.[/QUOTE]
You keep saying that, but after several pages and posts in this thread, you still haven't shown anything concrete.
[QUOTE]History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans. That is to say, that Albanians are native in their lands.[/QUOTE]
It's not so easy. History doesn't clearly record the migratory pattern of the Roma from India to the Balkans either, that doesn't mean they are native to the region. There is a source from the 11th century that apparently speaks of Arbanites being settled in Epirus from Sicily, it's written by George Maniakos, but I am having difficulties trying to obtain the text so I can confirm its validity.

Soldier of Macedon 08-17-2010 08:10 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]I maintain a firm stand regarding the Illyrian continuity theory, I believe Albanians do have relations to Illyrians whether in genetics or language.[/QUOTE]
That large article doesn't reveal anything new, does it?

Soldier of Macedon 08-17-2010 08:39 PM

[QUOTE][B]Illyrian geographical toponymes:[/B][/QUOTE]
Ok, now we are getting more to the specifics.
[QUOTE]1. [B][I]Ulcinium[/I][/B]= Ulk (Ujk) that means 'volf'.[/QUOTE]
Volk in Macedonian, Vuk in Serbian, it's an IE cognate, in Proto Balto-Slavic it would probably be W'lk or Wulk, bringing it within closer proximity to Illyrian, both phonologically and time-wise.
[QUOTE]2. [B]Dardania[/B] = 'Pear land' (Dard = Dardhë (pear); An=anë (side);[/QUOTE]
That is hard to confirm, and if it is accepted as a possibility, then so too must other suggestions, such as dardania meaning 'gift' or 'given gift'.
[QUOTE]3. [B]Dalmatia[/B] = Delme that means 'flock of sheeps'[/QUOTE]
Is Dalmatia historically known as a place where flocks of sheep are bred? How has this conclusion been reached?
[QUOTE]4. [B]Parthia[/B] is transparently equal with Alb. 'Bardh' means 'White'[/QUOTE]
But also equal with PIE Bardhe, which means 'beard'. How can we be sure which one is related?
[QUOTE]5. [B]Scardus[/B] = [B][I]Sharrë[/I][/B] that fits perfectly to the rugged relief of Scardus hills.[/QUOTE]
You mean Shar Planina? What does Shar mean in Albanian?
[QUOTE]6. Troy = Troje (pluaral) > Truall (sing.) which means 'land'.[/QUOTE]
How do you know what Troy meant? Is it recorded anywhere?
[QUOTE]2. [B]Bardulis[/B] is without doubt a pure Albanian name that is composed of two-words: [B]Bardh(ë) + Yll = The white star. [/B][/QUOTE]
It does look very similar, and the etymology is plausible. However, there are other examples that can be cited which also look similar, such as the previously mentioned Bardhe for 'beard'.

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