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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Sovius 02-15-2011 01:24 AM

Excellent work by the way.

Soldier of Macedon 05-01-2011 07:09 PM

Continued on from here:

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1610&highlight=history+serbs+bulgarica&page=7[/url]

[QUOTE="Epirot"]There is a plethora of historical facts emphasizing Albanian character of the above-mentioned region. I'm quite surprised how an educated Macedonian like you has no knowledge for something that is so self-evident. [/QUOTE]
That 'plethora' of information doesn't go against what I suggested before, namely, that Albanians spread to these regions as a result of the Ottoman Empire. And that fact is evidenced in the texts you provided, as the Albanians living around Morava or Nish were all Muslims. There is no evidence of permanent Albanian habitation in these regions prior to the Ottomans and the conversion of your people (at least most of them) to Islam. If you think you're able to prove otherwise, I am happy to hear your arguments.
[QUOTE]More or less.[/QUOTE]
Well, you'd be wrong if you were, because there was no such thing at the time. The Serbs, like other Orthodox Christians, belonged to the 'Rum' (Roman) millet. That the Serb identity was used by others in the region as a descriptor for an Orthodox Christian is another matter, because it wasn't considered a millet until much later. The sources you posted from the Serbian authors are interesting though, thanks for that.
[QUOTE]But if you ask me if Albanians as nation are more consistent than Serbs, my Answer would be YES........Albanians were consolidated as an ethnic group which trace back its origin to the Illyrians and the Epirotes.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, that sounds like something extracted straight out of Mein Kampf. Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group.

Droog 05-02-2011 12:26 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97263] Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group.[/QUOTE]

Actually that's a very outdated concept. Most Turkish loanwords have been removed and replaced since the 19th century.

Soldier of Macedon 05-02-2011 01:03 AM

Actually, it isn't. I don't recall mentioning Turkish loanwords as a significant factor, do you (even though most of your kinsmen have Turkish or Arabic first and last names)? Try seeing how many Slavic, Greek and Latin words there are, I can assure you that they collectively outweigh the 'Shqipe' words in your language. Or perhaps you too were having a Mein Kampf moment by referring to the 'consistency' of Albanian ethnicity since antiquity?

Epirot 05-02-2011 07:12 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97263]That 'plethora' of information doesn't go against what I suggested before, namely, that Albanians spread to these regions as a result of the Ottoman Empire. And that fact is evidenced in the texts you provided, as the Albanians living around Morava or Nish were all Muslims. There is no evidence of permanent Albanian habitation in these regions prior to the Ottomans and the conversion of your people (at least most of them) to Islam. If you think you're able to prove otherwise, I am happy to here your arguments.
[/QUOTE]

But then how do you explain the common similarities found between Albanian and Rumanian. The very fact that Albanians and Rumanians share either linguistic and cultural components has lead many scholars to suggest that Albanians and proto-Rumanians shared a common frontier at least since Roman period. This smash the blatant myth of Albanian arrival in Kosova and adjecant areas.

[url]http://www.promacedonia.org/en/dr/dr_map_21s.jpg[/url]

As you can see from the above map, the Albanian presence (namely in Morava valley) is quite close with the Rumanian speaking areas (Vlachs of Nishava and Timok valley). This long vicinity between two peoples was snapped when Serbian conquering armies took the control of Toplica region (inhabited by Albanians).

[QUOTE]The sources you posted from the Serbian authors are interesting though, thanks for that.
[/QUOTE]

You're welcome! In fact, I have to research much more in my data base because I collected a lot of similar documents (written by Serb intellectuals) pointing out the same story as Greece's case.

[QUOTE]Epirot, that sounds like something extracted straight out of Mein Kampf. Your highly bastardised (look the word up, I don't mean it in a derogatory way) language should be an indication of how non-consistent your people have been as an ethnic group[/QUOTE]

I would be the last man in earth to maintain Nazistic doctrines about racial purity and other craps. I apologize if my post was perceived so. Albanians as every Balkans people received certain foreign ingridents (linguistic borrowings, etc, etc). But Albanian people in its genesis was not emerged by absorption of foreign peoples. For instance, the Serbs, Bulgarians and Greeks emerged as nations (of course with the generous helps of Europe) by assimilating various Orthodox peoples.
Therefore my point was that Albanians and Serbs are totally different stories...I mean they differs in their consolidation as nations.

Soldier of Macedon 05-03-2011 12:04 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]But then how do you explain the common similarities found between Albanian and Rumanian.[/QUOTE]
Define those similarities, I have often heard of them, but aside from a few common lexical examples, I can't seem to find anything on the internet. Please use verifiable examples also, and if you're going to refer to an Illyro-Dacian link from antiquity, then be specific, cite words present in today's Albanian, Romanian - and Illyrian or Dacian. Let's see how many there are.
[QUOTE]The very fact that Albanians and Rumanians share either linguistic and cultural components has lead many scholars to suggest that Albanians and proto-Rumanians shared a common frontier at least since Roman period.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't necessarily mean that the Albanian side of that frontier was west of Romania. It could also have been east of Romania, which opens up the possibility of Proto-Albanian speakers migrating westwards across Dacia and the Balkans. I will wait for you to respond with details regarding the suggested commonalities between Albanians and Romanians, before I provide my opinion.
[QUOTE]As you can see from the above map, the Albanian presence (namely in Morava valley) is quite close with the Rumanian speaking areas (Vlachs of Nishava and Timok valley). This long vicinity between two peoples was snapped when Serbian conquering armies took the control of Toplica region (inhabited by Albanians).[/QUOTE]
Actually, you're timing is wrong, because Slavic-speakers lived in those areas well before that map was produced. I don't think you responded to my previous question - where are all of the Albanian place-names in these areas?

Epirot 05-03-2011 05:29 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97387]Define those similarities, I have often heard of them, but aside from a few common lexical examples, I can't seem to find anything on the internet. Please use verifiable examples also, and if you're going to refer to an Illyro-Dacian link from antiquity, then be specific, cite words present in today's Albanian, Romanian - and Illyrian or Dacian. Let's see how many there are.

?[/QUOTE]

Actually, this matter is very complex since no general study has been made yet. Scholars who have made such claims were concentrated only in some points: cultural, linguistic, etc. However, I'll try in following to extract some significative details that may throw some lights in this problem.

[QUOTE]Albanians and Romanians have always been neighbors, except during the Slavic dominance. Their close ties reveal themselves in language, folklore, customs, traditions, clothing, and toponymy. In his work titled “Rumanische Toponomastik” (1924), Iorgu Iordan gives names that are direly linked to the Albanian, such as Arbănaşi (in Buzău), Arnăutul (Negru), Fāntāna Arnăutului, Movila Arnăutului, Arnaut Bostan-Dere (in Constantza), etc. Some authors believe that arbănaş also means Aromanian. Daco-Romans from Muntenia and Moldavia often referred to Aromanians as Albanians, because they came from the Albanian provinces, as they did in Bulgaria. It is similarly known that Albanians who settled in Romania in centuries past were known to the locals as arnăuţi and even Turks. The Romanian toponymy has a number of words other than arbănaşi and arnăut which relate to the Albanian toponymy. The Romanian-Albanian ties have remarkable features that relate to time, space, history, social-psychology, religion, culture, and art.

In short (scurt in Romanian, shkurtimisht in Albanian), Albanians and Romanians have developed commonalities in terms of spirituality, language, history, and ethnography over our multi-century civilization. Folk dances, national costumes, and behavior are all proof of their brotherhood; we may call Albanians our co-nationals who say fort bukur for foarte frumos (English translation: very beautiful).

According to Nicolae Iorga, “the Romanians’ and the Albanians’ foundation are the Illyrian-Thracian-Dacian tribes which inhabited the Balkan Peninsula and later crossed the Danube, took the name of Getae and Dacians, and later spread all over Transylvania.”

In a paper discussing Romanian-Albanian links, the editor-in-chief of a Bucharest magazine wrote, using the pseudonym Boirevista, that “There is no element in present day Romania towards which we have more affection than is the Albanian element, for it is more than twenty centuries old.” Within the Balkan language family, Albanian and Romanian are closely related. “This relatedness manifests itself in phonetics, morphology, syntax construction, phraseology, the formation of words, vocabulary.” In a paper about the origin of common linguistic elements, independent trajectories, and distinct Thracian-Dacian or Thracian-Illyrian inheritances, Professor Grigore Brāncuş underlined that “the Romanian and Albanian languages are related through a sublayer which is the source of common innovations. manian-Albanian and Thracian-Illyrian relations are ancient; for this reason, there are many similarities, parallels, interlinkages in terms of spiritual and cultural life.

[url]http://www.zemrashqiptare.net/article/english/10194/[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]About 300 words found only in Romanian or with a cognate in the Albanian language may be inherited from Dacian, many of them being related to pastoral life (for example: balaur "dragon", brānză "cheese", mal "shore"). Some linguists have asserted that Albanians are Dacians who were not romanized and migrated southward.[43]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_language[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]That doesn't necessarily mean that the Albanian side of that frontier was west of Romania. It could also have been east of Romania, which opens up the possibility of Proto-Albanian speakers migrating westwards across Dacia and the Balkans. [/QUOTE]

I've thought also for this possible scenario but I did not find any supportive evidence to back it up! The well-known Romanian historian I.I. Russu proposed a possible idea that Albanians may have orgniated from Carpi that were pushed from Hunnic and Slavic pressures. He went as far as to suggest that their tribal name is Albanian (Carpi <---> alb. Karpė, rock). I've dedicated much of my time in the study of Carpi culture but I haven't detected any resemblance with Albanian one. If our ancestors came really from Carpi region, then we would be called ourselves as Carpi, Dacians, etc not as Albanians. It is more plausible that proto-Albanians were not distant from western Rumania (Timoko Valley and adjecant areas). This place Albanians in the region of Dardania...so the fact that Albanians were able to influenced linguistically Proto-Romanians and at the same time to adopt Dacian elements indicate that Albanians from the remote antiquity were present in today's Kosova. So, the hypothesis of any Albanian arrival in Kosova cannot be sustained for the above reasons.

[QUOTE]Actually, you're timing is wrong, because Slavic-speakers lived in those areas well before that map was produced. I don't think you responded to my previous question - where are all of the Albanian place-names in these areas[/QUOTE]

Well...what are your evidences to support your claim that Slavic-speakers lived previously in those areas? About your request for any Albanian place-names in these areas, I can find out a lot of them:

[QUOTE]Vendbanime me A:
Alikinci, Alabana ,Arbanashka, Arbanashci, Araqa, Hasanovci (edhe Asanovic).

Vendbanime me B:
Balltiqi, Barllova, Bajshtica e Epėrme, Bajshtica e Poshtme, Balinovci, Baca, Banjska, Bajqiqi, Bajqinca, Buci, Borova, Banja e Repanjės, Bajqinovci, Bardyzi, Banja, Babviqevci, Babatica, Babishevci, Banjabara, Bajra, Batushica, Barlova, Berila, Bedila, Bellanica, Belibregu, Bellotini, Bellobregu, Bellanovci, Berxhika, Beselica, Berbatofci, Bellpola, Belegu, Bubavci, Berjana, Beashtica e Poshtme, Binovci, Bllaca, Boka, Borovci, Borinci, Bojniku, Bunovci, Bogujevci, Bujanovci, Bugujevci (nė rrethin e Jabllanicės), Buzhurana, Breznica, Bresternavi, Brallova, Brajshori, Branina, Bresi, Brezniqiqi, Breznica, Bullatovci, Buqinca, Bublica, Bufca, Burevica, Burinci, Budeci, Bumbereku, Bullaini, Bukollrami, Bukozhani, Bukovagllava, Bushtrani, Buqinca, Byqmeti i Epėrm, Byqmeti i Poshtėm, Byqmeti i Mesėm, Bugunuvci.

Vendbanime me C:
Cervaneku, Cernoverni, Cerrcavci i Epėrm, Cerrcavci i Poshtėm, Cerrnatova;

Vendbanime me Ē:
Ēestelina, Ēiftliku, Ēokoti, (njė ne qarkun e Nishit e njė nė Jabllanicė), Ēukovci.

Vendbanime me D:
Dankoviqi, Devotini, Dedinca, Devqa e Epėrme, Degermeni, Dediqi, Dekutina, Deshullovci, Dedishka, Dikovci, Dllugojnica, Dobratiqi, Debrejance, Dobrasheva, Dobridolli, Dragideli, Dragusha e Epėrme, Dragusha e Poshtme, Dranica, Dragobuzhda, Draganci, Drevina, Drenova, Drenci, Drenovci, Dubrava, Dubranja, Dubnica, Durnjaci, Dubova, Dugidelli, Dugolluka, Dublica, Dukati, Drugalevci, Dubulevi.

Vendbanime me G:
Gazdara, Gajtani, Gabinca, Graica, Granica, Gesolica, Gegla, Gerguri (nė Jabllanicė), Gerguri (nė rrethin tė Prokuples), Gojnofci, Gopnja, Gollaku, Govori, Grabofci, Gragoqevci, Grabovica, Gerbafci, Grebolica, Gllasoviku, Gllasnoviqi, Gradni, Gunjaraku, Gurivica, Gubetini, Gurgurofci, Gurgurova, Gurgora.

Vendbanime me Gj:
Gjemnica, Gjelekari, Gjelekara, Gjaka e Epėrme, Gjaka e Poshtme, Gjukella, Gjorgjefci, Gjushica, Gjingjusha, Gjurkofci, Gjurefci, Gjikolli, Gjurgjefci.

Vendbanime me H:
Hergaja, Huruglica e Epėrme, Huruglica e Poshtme.

Vendbanime me I:
Igrishta (e Vranjės), Igrishta (e Pusta Rekes), Ivankulla, Ivanja, Izumna.

Vendbanime me J:
Jabuqa, Jakofci, Jashanica e Epėrme, Jashanica e Poshtme, Jellashinca.

Vendbanime me K':
Kamenica, Katundmorina (rrethi i Nishit), Komotena, Kumareva, Kallabofci, Katuni, Kacabaqi, Katiqi, Kapiti, Klaiqi, Klisurica, Konjufci, Koprani, Konxheli, Korbevci, Kodra, Konjuva, Konjuhi, Kojqiqi, Koqane, Kremenata, Kertoku, Krivaqa, Krushevica, Kerqmara e Epėrme, Kerqmara e Poshtme, Kovanlloku, Kutllovci i Epėrm, Kutllovci i Poshtėm, Kuqi, Krushevica, Kutllova, Kutllat, Kozmaqi, Koznica, Kordinci i Poshtėm, Kordinci i Epėrm, Kastrati, Kallabovci, Kalimanca, Koshareva, Konjina.

Vendbanime me L:
Legatica, Lebofci, Levqa e Epėrme, Lebana, Leci, Leskovabara, Lepanja, Leboshtica, Letovnishte, Leturna ,Lumeqi, Lepenica, Lipovica, Lusha.

Vendbanime me Ll:
Llallinca, Llazalla, Llapashtica, Llozana, Llozna, Llopetinca, Llugiqi, Llumnica, Llukova, Llugari.

Vendbanime me M:
Manistirishta, Masurica, Magashi, Mazareqi, Maleivci, Makovci, Magova, Magarenja, Marovci, Maqedonci, Maqestena, Magjera, Maqina, Maqkovci, Matarova, Matajevci i Madh, Matajevci i Vogėl, Merqezi, Megja, Maqkovci, Mekishi, Merofci, Mesgraja, Megjuana, Mehanja, Mealica, Mernica, Medveci, (Merqa, Mellova, Merveshi, Mekishi, Meshica, Merkonja, Merlaku, Merkoviqi), tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e paza pas M, Megjurova, Milina, Miroqica, Mikullofci, Mikulani, Mirovci, Miroshevci, Milivojci, Miskiqi, Mirosllavi, Mirinca, Mihalica, Molla e Kuqe, Momqilli, Mugosha, Muzaqa, Muqena, Muleviqi.

Vendbanime me N:
Novosella, Neredovci i Epėrm, Neredovci i Poshtėm, Negosavla, Novosella (nėqarkune e Toplicės), Novosella (nė qarkune e Vranjės), Neveda, Nelaku, Nesushta.

Vendbanime me O:
Orlishte, Orana, Orlana, Oraqi, Obertinca, Obllaqina, Ostrogllava, Obarda, Orashci.

Vendbanime me P:
Paqarada, Parada, Pasjaqa, Pasjaqa (Nish), Pavllovci, Pallata, Pashici, Petrovci, Pevatica, Perunika, Pestishi, Pestini, Petrila, Pertata, Peqenci, Pokofci, Pervetica, Peroshtica, Pllana e Madhe, Pllana e Vogėl, Plakova, Plloqniku, (pėrkatesisht Pllashniku i Epėrm), Pllashniku i Poshtėm, Poterzhani, Popovci, Popova, Poturqoi, Pareqi, Pollomi, Pollomi (nė qarkun e Vranjės), Pollomi (nė qarkun e Prokuples), Prebeza e Epėrme, Prebeza e Poshtme, Prekoqna, Pretreshnja, Prekodelli, Prekedini, Prevallci, Preboji, Preseka, Prekopqellnika, Prekopuca, Prekorogja, Prekashtica, Preobrazhenja, Preopollci, Piskala, Pishteva, Pustoshillova, Pustovojllovci, Pukovci, Pupovica.

Vendbanime me Q:
Qyqalla, Qunglla.

Vendbanime me R:
Radeci, Radovci, Rabovci, Rafuna, Rakovica, Rashka, Rashica, Rastelica, Raqa, Rasuhaqa, Ramabaja, Ramnishta, Ravnishori, Ravnareka, Rashevci, Rataji, Rastavica, Rumanovci, Raputofci, Rastavica, Rasturrula, Ragjenovci, Radinovci, Ramadeni, Relinci, Reēica e Epėrme, Reēica e Poshtme (nė Toplic), Teēica e Leskovcit, Retkoceri i Epėrm, Retkoceri i Poshtėm, Resinci, Ribinci, Rudari, Rukofci, Runjiku, Rubofci.

Vendbanime me S:
Samakova, Sellova, Seoce, Sekicolli, Seqinica, Selishta, Sekiraqa, Sllavnica, Sllamniku ,Sllabniku, Sllatina, Siarina, Slishani, Slivnica, Slivova, Simnica, Sinanova, Sodarca, Skobari, Skoverqa, Statovci, Stublla, Stashillova, Starasella, Starobanja, Surdulica, Suvidolli, Suvojnica, Suvamorava, Sudimla, Svinjisishte, Sfirca, Svinjarina, Sfarqa e Epėrme, Sfarqa e Poshtme, Sagonjeva, Samarinci, Sagorjeva, Studenci, Spanca, Smrdani, Stropska, Smiloviqi, Stullca.

Vendbanime me Sh:
Sharprinci, Shahiqi, Shqrrlinci, Shahinovci, Shatra e Epėrme, Shatra e Poshtme, Sharci, Shanalluka, Shuliqi, (pėrkatesisht: Shylyshi), Shillova, Shipovci, Shishmanovci, Shirokonjeva, Shulemaja, Shushnjaku, Shtullca.

Vendbanime me T:
Talirofci, Terstena, Ternava e Poshtme, Ternave e Epėrme, Ternava (Nish), (Terpeza, Terrha, Termkolli, Terbunja e Epėrme, Terbunja e Poshtme, Ternavillazi) tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e-paza pas T, Tena, Tihofci, Toqani, Toverlani, Toshi, Topllaci, Topanica, Togaqevci, Treqaku, Trebinja, Tullari (Jabllanic), Tullari (Prokuple), Tmava, Turjana, Tupalla, Tupalla (Nish), Turqica, Tubuzhde.

Vendbanime me U:
Umi, Uzllok, Ushi.

Vendbanime me V:
Vardeniku, Vardini, Vasiqevci, (Verbica, Verbova, Verbovci, Vertopi) tė gjithė kėta emra nė kllapa janė me e-paza pas V, Vrella, Vagermeni, Veqa, Vllasa e Epėrme, Vuqaku, Vishesella, Vitosha, Vllahinja, Vllasa (e Prokuplės), Vllasa (e qarkut tė Vranjės), Vllahova, Vova, Vojllovci i Epėrm, Vodica, Vojiznova, Verbovci i Epėrm, Vrezhina e Poshtme, Visoka, Vershefci, Vranovci, Vuqjaku, Vukojefci, Vuqa, Vujanova, Vujiznova (Nish).

Vendbanime me Z:
Zagragja, Zaravinja, Zllatokoni, Zakishenje, Zuqa, Zllata, Zubuvci, Zebica.

Vendbanime me Zh:
Zhapska, Zhegrova, Zhdelova, Zhinipotoku, Zhitorogja, Zhuqa, Zhuqi.

Qytete:
Prokupla, Kushumlia, Leskoci, Vranja, Nishi, Sharqoj, Sheherqoj (Piroti), Bellapallanka, Tėrni. [/QUOTE]

P.S: Some of them were probably Slavic but doesn't mean that they were peopled by Slavic-speakings.

This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution!

Soldier of Macedon 05-03-2011 06:47 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]Actually, this matter is very complex since no general study isn't made yet. Scholars who have made such claims were concentrated only in some points: cultural, linguistic, etc.[/QUOTE]
So why have you cited it in support of your argument, if you aren't able to adequately elaborate?
[QUOTE]In his work titled “Rumanische Toponomastik” (1924), Iorgu Iordan gives names that are direly linked to the Albanian, such as Arbănaşi (in Buzău), Arnăutul (Negru), Fāntāna Arnăutului, Movila Arnăutului, Arnaut Bostan-Dere (in Constantza), etc.[/QUOTE]
I doubt any of them were there prior to the Ottoman Empire.
[QUOTE]Folk dances, national costumes, and behavior are all proof of their brotherhood................Within the Balkan language family, Albanian and Romanian are closely related. “This relatedness manifests itself in phonetics, morphology, syntax construction, phraseology, the formation of words, vocabulary"...........Professor Grigore Brāncuş underlined that “the Romanian and Albanian languages are related through a sublayer which is the source of common innovations. manian-Albanian and Thracian-Illyrian relations are ancient; for this reason, there are many similarities, parallels, interlinkages in terms of spiritual and cultural life.[/QUOTE]
I have never seen such claims as the above corroborated in detail. And the suggestion of a Thraco-Illyrian link is dubious on linguistic grounds, because (attested) Thracian and Illyrian combined share far more lexical similarities with Balto-Slavic languages than they do with Albanian and/or Romanian.
[QUOTE]About 300 words found only in Romanian or with a cognate in the Albanian language may be inherited from Dacian, many of them being related to pastoral life (for example: balaur "dragon", brānză "cheese", mal "shore"). Some linguists have asserted that Albanians are Dacians who were not romanized and migrated southward.[/QUOTE]
All speculative without any further elaboration. Furthermore, I doubt there are many words which are common to Albanian, Romanian and Thracian or Illyrian. Happy to see any evidence to the contrary.
[QUOTE]It is more plausible that proto-Albanians were not distant from western Rumania (Timoko Valley and adjecant areas). This place Albanians in the region of Dardania...so the fact that Albanians were able to influenced linguistically Proto-Romanians and at the same time to adopt Dacian elements indicate that Albanians from the remote antiquity were present in today's Kosova....[/QUOTE]
Why is it plausible? What Dacian 'elements' have Albanians adopted? When and from whom, the Dacians or Romanians? Your reasoning thus far, although it may sound good to yourself as an Albanian, is not at all convincing.
[QUOTE]Well...what are your evidences to support your claim that Slavic-speakers lived previously in those areas?[/QUOTE]
You can start with the fact that Slavic place-names, hydronyms, etc far outnumber and predate Albanian and Turkish ones in the region. Those areas, like most of the Balkans, were generally controlled by Slavic-speaking peoples from the 6th century, and that remained the case until the Ottomans invaded.
[QUOTE]About your request for any Albanian place-names in these areas, I can find out a lot of them:[/QUOTE]
Do you have a link? Which particular areas are those place-names located in, and when were they recorded?
[QUOTE]P.S: Some of them were probably Slavic but doesn't mean that they were peopled by Slavic-speakings.[/QUOTE]
Some of them? Epirot, most of them are place-names in Slavic languages, so most would be peopled (or would have been at some point) by Slavic-speaking peoples.
[QUOTE]This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution![/QUOTE]
Likewise, look forward to your response to the above.

Onur 05-03-2011 12:11 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;97392]
This thread is getting interesting because it's a great opportunity to reveal our knowledge and research there! It's more than welcomed your contribution![/QUOTE]

OK, here is my contribution;

You cant reach to any point with Albanian-Romanian connection because it`s genetically, historically and linguistically proven that today`s Latin like speaking Romanians/Vlachs are nothing but various Balkanic people who has been assimilated by Latin people. Most probably their linguistic assimilation has been completed soon after crusader raids around 13th century.

So, in regards to genetics, Romanians are relatives of literally all current Balkanic peoples. The closest relatives of them are probably Hungarians but i also saw some DNA researches who finds genetic similarity between Turks and Romanians. So, in genetics wise, They are various Balkanic people who shows minor resemblances with medieval Latins.

So, your Albanian connection with Romanians doesn't prove anything because literally every Balkanic people connected with them, both linguistically and genetically.


Also, I have read another interesting similarity between Albanians and Romanians b4. AFAIK, Albanian language has much more Latin words and grammatical forms than any other Balkan language and most likely Albanian language adopted these Latin forms, words before 20th century. So in that sense, we can say that Latins has been fully assimilated Romanians/Vlachs in linguistic wise but Albanian language also shows traces of similar linguistic shift(or assimilation, change, whatever you call) in medieval era, not evident as Romanian language tough. Genetics wise, Albanian people has no relation at all with Latin peoples, just like Romanians. Ofc Albanians are genetically related with other Balkanic people again.

Soldier of Macedon 05-03-2011 09:18 PM

Here is a text of an article regarding Albanians in Romania:
[QUOTE]An Albanian community inside the Danubian Principalities was [B][COLOR="Red"]first attested in Wallachia under Prince Michael the Brave[/COLOR][/B]: a report drafted by Habsburg authorities in Transylvania specified that [B][COLOR="red"]15,000 Albanians had been allowed to cross [U]north of the Danube[/U] in 1595[/COLOR][/B]; Călineşti (a village in present-day Floreşti, Prahova County) was one of their places of settlement, as evidenced in a document issued by Michael's rival and successor, Simion Movilă, who confirmed their right to reside in the locality. [B][COLOR="red"]The community's presence was first recorded in Bucharest around 1628. In Moldavia, an ethnic Albanian, Vasile Lupu, became Prince in 1634.[/COLOR][/B]

The Albanian community was strengthened during the Phanariote epoch, when numerous immigrants opened businesses in a large number of cities and towns, and were [COLOR="red"][B]employed as bodyguards of Wallachian princes and boyars[/B][/COLOR] (being usually recorded as arbănaşi, akin to Arvanites, and its variant arnăuţi, borrowed from the Turkish arnaut). In 1820, a survey indicated that there were 90 traders from the Rumelian town of Arnaut Kioy present in the Wallachian capital, most of whom were probably Albanians and Aromanians.[/QUOTE]
As can be seen, Albanian influence in the region of Dacia begins from the 16th century - during Ottoman times, as I had suggested previously. As the favoured mercenaries of the Ottomans, Albanians were able to spread out across the empire in such a way - all thanks to the Turks. Take note also of the fact that several thousand Albanians settled north of the Danube. Now see the below from an article regarding the Romanian language:
[QUOTE]......the first printed book of Romanian grammar in 1780, by Samuil Micu and Gheorghe Șincai. There, the [COLOR="red"][B][U]Romanian dialect spoken north of the Danube[/U][/B][/COLOR] is called lingua Daco-Romana to emphasize its origin and its area of use, which includes the former Roman province of Dacia (though it is spoken also south of the Danube, in Dobrudja, Central Serbia and northern Bulgaria).[/QUOTE]
Albanian has been recorded in written form no earlier than the 15th century, whereas Romanian was first attested in written texts from the 16th century, and its first grammar was printed in the 18th century. All of this happened during the Ottoman period (note: although the first text in Albanian was just prior to the fall of Skenderbeg's realm, it was a mere baptismal sentence, so not that informative).

Could the linguistic commonalities between Albanian and Romanian have resulted from interaction during Ottoman times? I would like to see how one would argue against such an assertion.

Soldier of Macedon 05-03-2011 09:35 PM

The below is in relation to a proposed link between Albanian and Indo-Iranian.

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=94980#post94980[/url]

[QUOTE][QUOTE]Albanian language forms its own branch of the Indo-European family and is not closely related to any other Indo-European languages. This complicates attempts to trace the origin of the Albanians further. A study published in Nature in 2003 tentatively put [B]Albanian in the Indo-Iranian branch[/B], but with a high degree of uncertainty.[/QUOTE]
Gray RD, Atkinson QD (2003) Language-tree divergence times support Anatolian theory of Indo-European origins. Nature 426:435-439.[/QUOTE]
Here is something else about Albanian and Iranian:
[QUOTE][url]http://books.google.com.au/books?id=_kn5c5dJmNUC&pg=PA245&lpg=PA245&dq=albanian+iranian+language&source=bl&ots=hTjzy098jN&sig=b-w9jzzU754qKpgS_otUNookJ2w&hl=en&ei=UXSZTaHCHpGougOUpInpCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&sqi=2&ved=0CEYQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=macedonia&f=false[/url]

It (Ossetic) has taken on many features of the neighbouring Caucasian languages, such as glottalized consonants and a system of nine cases in the noun. It has also preserved the inherited subjunctive and optative as distinct moods, making it one of the rare modern languages to do so (the others being [B]Albanian and one or two other Iranian languages[/B]).[/QUOTE]
And something further to that:
[QUOTE]Iranian studies in Albania although not academically pursued, have always enjoyed Albanian people interest. The diffusion of Persian literature and culture in Albania is closely linked with the presence of Ottoman Empire in Albania and with the heavy influence Persian culture exerted on the ottoman administration and Turkish culture of the era. Another key factor in the popularisation of the Persian culture among Albanians is also the expansion of Islam in the territories lived by Albanians during the XVI-XVII centuries. [B]Meanwhile, during the XIX century Persian language was widely used among Albanian intellectuals[/B].

Naim and Sami Frashėri, two famous Albanian writers, were among the most prominent scholars of the oriental and Iranian studies in Albania. Naim Frashėri has published two books in Persian language: the first one named “Grammar of the Persian language” was published in Turkey, in 1871, while the second one, a compilation of poems in Persian language, named “Tehajjulat” was published in Turkey, in 1885, representing a cornerstone for the Persian literature and culture in Albania.

Other prominent personalities of iranology in Albania include: Vexhi Buharaja, candid translator into Albanian language of many Persian books (such as “Gjylistani dhe Bostani” “3500 verses from Shahname”, etc), [B]Tahir Dizdari, author of an important dictionary “Persian words in Albanian language”[/B], Hafiz Ali Korca and Fan Noli, with his brilliant translation of Omar Khajam’s famous “quatrains”, Dalan Shapllo, scholar, writer and translator of Hafiz Shirazi’s mystical poems and many more contemporaneous Albanian linguists, scholars and writers.

A precious contribution to the tightening of the cultural links between Albania and Iran has made the first Iranian organisation established in Albania – Cultural Iranian Foundation “Saadi Shirazi”, founded in Tirana, in 1996. During the same year, was issued the first edition of the scientific magazine “Perla (the Perl)”, dedicated to the scientific research and study of Iranology. In 2001, in Tirana, was opened the first non-public school, College “Saadi”. The contribution of this school in the pre-university education of the Albanian-speaking young students, has received considerable recognition.

Meanwhile, today’s establishment of the “Firdeusi” Institute for Iranian and Persian Studies, marks an important development in the field of Persian research and study in Albania.[/QUOTE]
Most of those words may have come into Albanian during the Ottoman period, but I am curious to know just what sort of grammatical, syntax, etc similarities there are between Albanian and Persian, and if any of them are of a fundamental nature. Basically - what separates Albanian from other Indo-European languages and what classifies it as a separate linguistic branch of IE?

Epirot 05-04-2011 04:33 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97397]So why have you cited it in support of your argument, if you aren't able to adequately elaborate?[/[/QUOTE]

I doing my best to explain it in a concise terms...

[QUOTE]And the suggestion of a Thraco-Illyrian link is dubious on linguistic grounds, because (attested) Thracian and Illyrian combined share far more lexical similarities with Balto-Slavic languages than they do with Albanian and/or Romanian.[/QUOTE]

Why do you suspect the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic links? In the linguistic circles, the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic group is widely accepted, even though there are some attempts to reject this because according to their arguments, Illyrian belongs to the "C"(entum) languages, while Thracian to the 'S' (atem) ones. But, Thracians and Illyrians were not distant lingustically from one another, so both languages were mutually intelegible, I guess. In Balkans exists a wider zone, stretching from Upper Danube up to the Axius river, when Thracians and Illyrians intermingled with one another. I really do not know much things about Balto-Slavic lexical similarities with Thraco-Illyrian, but I can say that Albanian in geograhical terms is emerged in a zone, where initially lived Illyrian and Thracian tribes, so it is more representative of them than Balto-Slavic group languages.

[QUOTE]Furthermore, I doubt there are many words which are common to Albanian, Romanian and Thracian or Illyrian. Happy to see any evidence to the contrary.
[/QUOTE]

See this...

[QUOTE]A hypothesis that the Thracian and the Albanian language are kindred languages remains one of the major current theories, although contested. There are cognates between Thracian and Albanian, but this may indicate only language interaction between the groups and not language affinity.[13] There have been significant changes in the Albanian language since Thracian times, and a Thracian link is difficult to demonstrate. Still, the relation of Thracian to Albanian is given much consideration even today.

Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: [COLOR="Red"][B][U]the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to Albanian mėz (=pony), [/U][/B][/COLOR]as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), [COLOR="Red"][B]and it is agreed that Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'[/B][/COLOR]; [COLOR="Blue"][B]Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). [/B][/COLOR]It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak). [COLOR="Red"][B]Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes.[/B][/COLOR] This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip', and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_of_Thracian#Albanian[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Why is it plausible? What Dacian 'elements' have Albanians adopted? When and from whom, the Dacians or Romanians? Your reasoning thus far, although it may sound good to yourself as an Albanian, is not at all convincing.
[/QUOTE]

The common words that exists both in Albanian and Rumanian are thought to be inherited from Dacian.

[QUOTE]Dacian language is also known through about 1,150 proper names[8][12]), about 900 toponyms.[8] Finally, there are few hundreds words in modern Albanian and Romanian languages, which were often suggested to originate in ancient languages like Dacian (see List of Romanian words of possible Dacian origin).

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#Illyrian[/url][/QUOTE]

Epirot 05-04-2011 05:07 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97453]As can be seen, Albanian influence in the region of Dacia begins from the 16th century - during Ottoman times, as I had suggested previously. As the favoured mercenaries of the Ottomans, Albanians were able to spread out across the empire in such a way - all thanks to the Turks. Take note also of the fact that several thousand Albanians settled north of the Danube. [/QUOTE]

It would be better to re-read your quoted extract because there is no mention that these Albanians were settled in Walachia from Turks. The Wallachian royal authorities probably voluntarily accepeted this wave of Albanian orthodox emigrants. As far as I know, most of Albanians in Rumania were (and still are) of Orthodox faith. So I'm asking myself why Ottomans 'settled' Albanian Orthodoxes instead of Muslim Albanians!? If Albanians were settled in Rumania as colonizers of Turks, then they would be the ruling class there. This wasn't the case. In your source we read the following: [I]The Albanian community was strengthened during the Phanariote epoch, when numerous immigrants opened businesses in a large number of cities and towns, and were employed as bodyguards of Wallachian princes and boyars[/I].
Later on, the majority of Orthodox Albanians of Rumania were engaged mostly in the trade with Danubian areas. What is more funny, they were often called as 'Greeks' :). By the way, thanks for posting the above passage...

[QUOTE]Could the linguistic commonalities between Albanian and Romanian have resulted from interaction during Ottoman times? I would like to see how one would argue against such an assertion[/QUOTE]

In a certain degree yes but these linguistic commonalities obviosuly start in an earlier time, at least from Roman period.

[QUOTE]Albanian has been recorded in written form no earlier than the 15th century, whereas Romanian was first attested in written texts from the 16th century, and its first grammar was printed in the 18th century. All of this happened during the Ottoman period (note: although the first text in Albanian was just prior to the fall of Skenderbeg's realm, it was a mere baptismal sentence, so not that informative).
[/QUOTE]

We aren't that sure if the first written text in Albanian belongs to the 15th century. I find very siginificative the following quote of Scanderbeg: "If our chronicles do not lie, we call ourselves as Epirotes". To what chronicles was Scanderbeg refereing to? So there are possibilities that Albanian texts were written even be4 Scanderbeg!

Epirot 05-04-2011 11:26 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;57984]Epirot, check the below link for a Thracian glossary.

[url]http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html[/url]

Are you able to explain why the majority of the words listed have a cognate and etymology in the Balto-Slavic group of languages? And why Albanian examples fall far short?[/QUOTE]

The above link contains a very good summarization of Thracian glossary. Thanks for posting that!

To my humble opinion, Thracian had a great extension in Eastern Europe. The literary tradition asserts that some powerful Thracians tribes expanded themselves in what is today Eastern Europe.

[IMG]http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_4F.jpg[/IMG]
According to this map, Thracian reaches up to the Baltic shores!!!

Let us not neglect the very fact that Thracian was very affected by Eastern borrowings. A number of toponymes found in Northern Thrace were of Scythian provenience. Correct if I am wrong? I do not know which one from you guys has posted a map of Thracian toponymes...and as far as I remind..there were some toponymes with Scythian features. Scythians were one of the mightiest people that extended themselves from Bactria (or some says from Northern India) up to the Danubian shores. They might have been the inter-mediators of Thracian words to proto-Slavs...

Soldier of Macedon 05-04-2011 07:07 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]In the linguistic circles, the Thraco-Illyrian linguistic group is widely accepted........[/QUOTE]
No 'linguistic circles' have produced any convincing arguments in favour of Albanian being descended from Illyrian (or Thracian, for that matter). And if there was anything, you would have already posted it on this forum by now (given the previous discussions). The connection you speak of is basically limited to a handful of words, and for each correspondence that Albanian has with either Illyrian or Thracian, there are several more in Balto-Slavic.
[QUOTE]I really do not know much things about Balto-Slavic lexical similarities with Thraco-Illyrian, but I can say that Albanian in geograhical terms is emerged in a zone, where initially lived Illyrian and Thracian tribes, so it is more representative of them than Balto-Slavic group languages.[/QUOTE]
That 'zone' must be Dardania (Kosovo), where Thracian and Illyrian tribes meet, but this 'emergence' you're referring to is questionable in terms of location. Nevertheless, even if that notion is entertained, it is only one zone. Balto-Slavic-speaking peoples live in the overwhelming majority of the territory (both south and north of the Danube) where Illyrians and Thracians lived. If anybody is representative on geographical grounds, it is them, and not the Albanians.
[QUOTE]See this...[/QUOTE]
Not really much to see. For each of the Thracian words cited in that quote which may have an Albanian connection, there is a Balto-Slavic equivalent.
[QUOTE]The common words that exists both in Albanian and Rumanian are thought to be inherited from Dacian.[/QUOTE]
That 'list' is speculative as there is nothing to link those words (or at least not most of them) to Dacian aside from historical revisionism - which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but without further corroboration it means very little. Furthermore, several of those words appear to have cognates in Latin.
[QUOTE]It would be better to re-read your quoted extract because there is no mention that these Albanians were settled in Walachia from Turks. The Wallachian royal authorities probably voluntarily accepeted this wave of Albanian orthodox emigrants.[/QUOTE]
Christian Albanians (like their Macedonian, Serbian, Bosnian, etc neighbours) did settled in Hapsburg lands to escape the Ottomans. But their numbers pale in comparison to their Islamic kinsmen who spread out across the Ottoman Empire. Either way, there is nothing to suggest an Albanian (Christian or Muslim) connection to Dacia prior to the 16th century - it all appears to have taken place during the Ottoman period.
[QUOTE]In a certain degree yes but these linguistic commonalities obviosuly start in an earlier time, at least from Roman period.[/QUOTE]
I don't see anything 'obvious' about it. You haven't shown me anything that suggests an Albanian relationship with Romanian prior to the Ottoman Empire.
[QUOTE]I find very siginificative the following quote of Scanderbeg: "If our chronicles do not lie, we call ourselves as Epirotes".[/QUOTE]
Where is that quote cited? I can't seem to find a source for it on the internet.

Soldier of Macedon 05-04-2011 08:24 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;97503][IMG]http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_4F.jpg[/IMG]
According to this map, Thracian reaches up to the Baltic shores!!![/QUOTE]
Indeed it does, and just looking at their living space indicates clearly that most of it is inhabited by Balto-Slavic peoples today.
[QUOTE]They might have been the inter-mediators of Thracian words to proto-Slavs...[/QUOTE]
The Scythians weren't always a homogenous group, and Balto-Slavic-speakers would have featured heavily among them. There is no chance of 'inter-mediators' between Balto-Slavic and Thracian because the lexical correspondences, sound changes, etc are just too close to be borrowings from one to another. There is only one way to explain it, and that is pre-existing commonalities stemming from a single mother-tongue. That is why people from Macedonia, to Slovenia, to Poland, to Russia and to the Baltic states use a word akin to Illyrian 'osseria' for a lake.

Soldier of Macedon 05-05-2011 02:10 AM

On the link below there is a comparison table of Iranian languages.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages[/url]

I notice that the word [B][COLOR="blue"]gisht[/COLOR][/B] for 'finger' in Albanian is identical to that in Zazaki, which is a dialect of Kurdish. In Albanian, this word can also mean 'hand', and the word for 'hand' in Zazaki is [B][COLOR="blue"]dast[/COLOR][/B]. Both words in Zazaki likely come from the same root.

This is only one example, but I am sure that more can be found. Of course, given the major changes that Albanian has underwent since its 'proto' stage, the number of correspondences will be limited - however, if they can be found in those words considered unique in Albanian, then it strengthens the argument for a connection between Albanian and Iranian languages.

Soldier of Macedon 05-05-2011 03:07 AM

Here is something from wikipedia about the Principality of Arbanon:
[QUOTE]n the beginning the name Arbanon was applied to a region in the mountainous area to the west of Lake Ochrida and the upper valley of the river Shkumbin in 11th century AD. There are very few sources about the creation of the principality with this name. In 1166 in a ceremony held in Kotor, an Andrea prior Arbanensis is mentioned among the participants accompanied by Lazarus Episcopis Arbanensis. A year later in 1167, Pope Alexander III, in a letter directed to Lazarus, congratulates him for returning his bishopric to Catholic faith and invites him to acknowledge the archbishop of Ragusa as his superior. After some resistance from local officials, the bishopric of Albania was put under the direct dependence of the Pope, as documented in a Papal letter dated in 1188 . We know very little about Progon who was the first Albanian ruler of the Principality of Arbėr in the 12th century. He gained the possessions of Kruja fortress and the lands surrounding it between 1190 and 1198 and had the title of archon (mentioned in the Gėziq inscription). After the castle of Kruja became his possession, Progon proclaimed himself a Prince in 1190. He was succeeded by his son Gjin who later was succeeded by Dhimitėr Progoni. [/QUOTE]
Epirot, what can you tell us about this? Information on the internet seems to be extremely scarce, with the main source being the below (which itself doesn't go into too much detail):
[QUOTE][url]http://books.google.com/books?id=bclfdU_2lesC&pg=PA786#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]

The New Cambridge Medieval History: c. 1198-c. 1300, page 786: " [I]little arbanon, shut away in the hinterland, with its main political center in Kruja, opted for a continuing attachment to the Orthodox tradition and for subjection to Epiros, as well as alliance to Serbia...[/I] "[/QUOTE]
Here is something else with regard to the name 'Arbanon':
[QUOTE]The name may be derived from the Illyrian tribe of the Albani recorded by Ptolemy, the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria who drafted a map in 150 AD that shows the city of Albanopolis (located northeast of Durrės).

The name may have a continuation in the name of a medieval settlement called Albanon and Arbanon, although it is not certain this was the same place. [B]In his History written in 1079–1080, Byzantine historian Michael Attaliates was the first to refer to Albanoi as having taken part in a revolt against Constantinople in 1043 and to the Arbanitai as subjects of the Duke of Dyrrachium.[/B] During the Middle Ages, the Albanians called their country Arbėr or Arbėn and referred to themselves as Arbėresh or Arbnesh.

As early as the 16th century the placename Shqipėria and the ethnic demonym Shqiptarė gradually replaced Arbėria and Arbėresh. While the two terms are popularly interpreted as "Land of the Eagles" and "Children of the Eagles", they derive from the adverb shqip, which means "understanding each-other".

Under the Ottoman Empire Albania was referred to officially as Arnavutluk and its inhabitants as Arnauts. The word is considered to be a metathesis from the word Arvanite, which was the Medieval Greek name for the Albanians.[/QUOTE]
Do you have any information on Michael Attaliates? He apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042. I have seen this repeated on the internet, but never confirmed with a source.

Droog 05-05-2011 04:49 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97551]On the link below there is a comparison table of Iranian languages.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages[/url]

I notice that the word [B][COLOR="blue"]gisht[/COLOR][/B] for 'finger' in Albanian is identical to that in Zazaki, which is a dialect of Kurdish. In Albanian, this word can also mean 'hand', and the word for 'hand' in Zazaki is [B][COLOR="blue"]dast[/COLOR][/B]. Both words in Zazaki likely come from the same root.

This is only one example, but I am sure that more can be found. Of course, given the major changes that Albanian has underwent since its 'proto' stage, the number of correspondences will be limited - however, if they can be found in those words considered unique in Albanian, then it strengthens the argument for a connection between Albanian and Iranian languages.[/QUOTE]
a)You have mixed up even the basic rules of linguistics
b)gisht doesn't mean hand
c)it's modern form is gisht, but its medieval one is glisht
d)read the works of real linguists
[URL="http://books.google.com/books?id=xZftQtCaYE0C&pg=PA178&dq=glisht&hl=en&ei=a3LCTdfyO4SDOqK6qJ0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=glisht&f=false"]http://books.google.com/books?id=xZftQtCaYE0C&pg=PA178&dq=glisht&hl=en&ei=a3LCTdfyO4SDOqK6qJ0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=glisht&f=false[/URL]
e)Although there aren't congates of course Iranian languages are related to Albanian as they are IE. Zazaki also uses the word "name" for name as English and that means nothing else other than this: Zazaki and English are both IE languages whose word *h1nomn̥ underwent the same development.

Soldier of Macedon 05-05-2011 05:11 AM

I used google translate as I didn't have any Albanian dictionaries near me at the time. For the word 'hand' it listed 'gisht' lower on the list, which suggest that in some context it can also be used to refer to a 'hand'. Is this incorrect? If so, go and advise your kinsmen at google translate who provided the translation. I hardly need your advice on the basic rules of linguistics, offer it to someone who wants to go backward in your direction. Furthermore, you don't need to waste my time with your elementary understanding of how cognates work. If you wanted to reply with something clever, you should have shown me which other languages aside from Albanian and Iranian use the word 'gisht' for a 'finger'. Can you manage that?

Droog 05-05-2011 05:32 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97565]I used google translate as I didn't have any Albanian dictionaries near me at the time. For the word 'hand' it listed 'gisht' lower on the list, which suggest that in some context it can also be used to refer to a 'hand'. Is this incorrect? If so, go and advise your kinsmen at google translate who provided the translation. I hardly need your advice on the basic rules of linguistics, offer it to someone who wants to go backward in your direction. Furthermore, you don't need to waste my time with your elementary understanding of how cognates work. If you wanted to reply with something clever, you should have shown me which other languages aside from Albanian and Iranian use the word 'gisht' for a 'finger'. Can you manage that?[/QUOTE]
SoM do you know what the term phonological development means? You're assuming that two words that seem similar to you 1) have the same ph.d. 2)are pronounced in the same way 3)belong in the same era(which they obviously don't as I explained above) etc. You'd be making the same mistake with the word "name" that is the same in English and Zezaki.

ps. gisht never meant hand
ps2. don't use google translate

Epirot 05-06-2011 06:22 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97556]

Do you have any information on Michael Attaliates? He apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042. I have seen this repeated on the internet, but never confirmed with a source.[/QUOTE]

Well...I have to check it out in my files once again what does really meant Michael Attaliates with the 'Arbanitai' of Sicilia. As far as I remember, he nowhere implied that Albanians of Dyrrachium were transplanted there from Sicily. I find it as fairly non-plausible because how could a few mercenaries impose their name to a people, who during Middle age had a great territorial extension.

[QUOTE]Epirot, what can you tell us about this? Information on the internet seems to be extremely scarce, with the main source being the below (which itself doesn't go into too much detail):[/QUOTE]

In fact, the period between VII century (when Slavic upheaval seem to cease) up to the X century contains only a few accounts for the situation in the inner Balkans. Almost all Byzantine accounts were concentrated mainly in the struggles to gain the royal throne in Constandinople or in eventual secessionist riots that took place in several parts of Byzantine Empire. During this time, Byzantine chroniclers did not pay much attention about post-Illyrian remnants like Albanians or Vlachs, who were retained in the distant mountain regions of Montenegro, Dardania and Epirus.

Epirot 05-06-2011 06:39 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;97520]No 'linguistic circles' have produced any convincing arguments in favour of Albanian being descended from Illyrian (or Thracian, for that matter). And if there was anything, you would have already posted it on this forum by now (given the previous discussions). The connection you speak of is basically limited to a handful of words, and for each correspondence that Albanian has with either Illyrian or Thracian, there are several more in Balto-Slavic.

.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it is not that convincing to you, but the mainstream of modern linguists consider Albanian as being derived from either Illyrian and Thracian. I am aware that the information regarding these ancient idioms is extremely scarce, but we have to deal only with those glosses, words, toponymes that have links to modern languages. And a sizable number of them are linked with the Albanian.

[QUOTE]Balto-Slavic-speaking peoples live in the overwhelming majority of the territory (both south and north of the Danube) where Illyrians and Thracians lived. If anybody is representative on geographical grounds, it is them, and not the Albanians.
[/QUOTE]

I am left far from being persuaded. If the speakers of Balto-Slavic are more representatives of Thracians than Albanians, then can you corroborate further your assertion with other arguments. For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?

[QUOTE]Either way, there is nothing to suggest an Albanian (Christian or Muslim) connection to Dacia prior to the 16th century - it all appears to have taken place during the Ottoman period.[/QUOTE]

I will dedicate this response to your previous question about Illyrian-Thracian linguistic similarities. So, the Illyrian influence toward Dacia begun at least from Appian’s times. Romans saw no difference at all between Mysians, Dacians and Illyrians.

[QUOTE]There I shall tell more about the Mysians. [COLOR="Red"][B]For the present, since the Romans consider the [U]Mysians a part of Illyria and this is my Illyrian history[/U],[/B][/COLOR] in order that it may be complete it seems proper to premise that Lucullus invaded Mysia as a general of the republic and that Tiberius took it in the time of the empire.

CHAPTER V[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Where is that quote cited? I can't seem to find a source for it on the internet.
[/QUOTE]

The original is in Italian. I will find it and post here!

makedonin 05-06-2011 08:12 AM

[quote=Epirot;97636]For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?
[/quote]

There certainly are some but we first have to establish what were this Thracian cultural traits!

Now, not that I agree with all that the following author has written, but she made a interesting observation about Macedonian customs:

[quote]
[FONT=Tahoma]It was the Thracian Rider, a deity worshipped [B]all over ancient Thrace and Macedonia,[/B] whom some think to be a form of Rhesus, the hero of whom Homer wrote. [/FONT][FONT=Tahoma]. He had a long lease of life, for the Roman legionaries of Thracian origin went on worshipping him, and his shrines are found wherever the legions went, and in Rome itself. You may find several sculptures representing him in the Budapest Museum. The mystery of Prince Marko was solved. There had been two similar processes and a synthesis of the results. [/FONT]

[B]The cult of the Thracian rider was practiced in Prilep[/B], and was driven underground by Christianity; but it never left the hearts of the people but it never left the hearts of the people, who in this uncomfortable life liked to think of a comfortable immortal, happy as eternities long, unacquainted with pain. Even so, when prince Marko was lowered from power to vassalhood he too never left the hearts of the people, who under the yoke of the Turk liked to think of the milder yoke of this reflective Christian prince. Therefore the two became fused in the common mind, the happy god, the sad mortal, and the imagination of folk-song followed now one strain and now another in this entanglement of opposites.

[URL="http://replay.web.archive.org/20070329055054/http://knigite.abv.bg/en/rw/rw_bitolj2.html"]from the Web Archive > Rebecca West[/URL]
[URL="http://www.gendersee.org.mk/files/Rebecca%20West_chapter7.doc"]for download the relevant part: Rebecca West[/URL]

[/quote][URL="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Ethnic_Macedonian_Dance_1.JPG"][IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a2/Ethnic_Macedonian_Dance_1.JPG[/IMG][/URL] Rusalii - Macedonian Ethnic Dance.

Up from 7:20 you can watch Rusalii dance:
[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-N_bSWSeIs&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Folk dances and songs ensemble-Tanec,Macedonia (Part3)[/url]

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MISwfHq-rkw&feature=player_embedded#at=21]YouTube - Folk dances and songs ensemble-Tanec,Macedonia (Part4)[/url]

Bratot 05-06-2011 11:56 AM

[QUOTE]Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to [B]Albanian mėz (=pony), [/B]as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), and it is agreed that [U]Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'[/U]; Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). [B]It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak[/B]). Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian [U]buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes[/U]. This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in [B]Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip',[/B] and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'.[/QUOTE]

So everything can be linked to slavic with much more certainity.

If one can link menzana with mėz than I guess we can add Macedonian 'mazga'(mule) or 'magare'(donkey) as well.

Onur 05-06-2011 06:37 PM

[QUOTE]Among the cognates between Thracian and Albanian: the Thracian inscription mezenai on the Duvanli gold ring has been unanimously linked to Messapian menzana (=horse deity) to Albanian mėz (=pony), as well as to Romanian mānz (=colt), and it is agreed that Thracian mezenai meant 'horseman'; Thracian manteia is supposed to be cognate to Albanian mand (=mulberry). It may also be connected to the Slavic mantija (=cloak). Sorin Paliga, a linguist at the academy of Bucharest, recently linked Romanian buză (=lip) and Albanian buzė (=lip) to the Thracian personal names Buzas, Buzo, Buzes. This word also exists in Bulgarian where it means 'cheek', in Serbian obraz means 'cheek', in Macedonian with the meaning of 'lip', and in Polish buzia where it means 'mouth' or 'lips'. [/QUOTE]

Epirot, it`s quite normal for your language to have this level of similarity with Polish, Thracian or with any slavic tongue but this doesn't prove much and it`s not enough to claim that Thracian, Dacian and Albanian were/are close relative languages.

Also, these similarities are evident in all languages of the world. For example, if i remember correctly, Anatolian Hittites of 1700 BC were calling "water" as "watah". Or i can give you a list of 900+ Sumerian words from 3500 BC which exists in today`s Turkic languages or 1400+ in today`s Hungarian. So, just because we can find these similarities, today`s English people were neighbors/relatives of Hittites?? or today`s Hungarians, Turks relatives of Sumerians??

Epirot 05-07-2011 05:25 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;97690]Epirot, it`s quite normal for your language to have this level of similarity with Polish, Thracian or with any slavic tongue but this doesn't prove much and it`s not enough to claim that Thracian, Dacian and Albanian were/are close relative languages.

[/QUOTE]

Onur, I agree with you that there is no enough linguistical stuff because the heritage of ancient Paleo-Balkans languages is fairly scarce. In absence of inscriptions (neither Thracian nor Illyrian were written languages) we are compelled to deal only with a handful of glosses, words, toponymes and anthroponymes. In the present state of things, many Thracian and Illyrian words can be etymologized via Albanian. The link of Albanian with both Illyrian and Thracian are strengthen even from supportive evidences like: cultural, geographical and historical ones. The Albanian inhabited area stands in what once was called as [B]Southern Illyria (Dardania, Praevalitana, Epirus Nova, Epirus Vetus). [/B]The Thracian component in Albanian may be explained from any latter migration of Northern Thracians who were pressured to leave their native lands from 'Barbarian' invanders.

Soldier of Macedon 05-08-2011 12:58 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;97636]Maybe it is not that convincing to you, but the mainstream of modern linguists consider Albanian as being derived from either Illyrian and Thracian.[/QUOTE]
The reason why they tend to classify Albanian as either Illyrian or Thracian is because they haven't been able to classify it within any other modern IE linguistic family, and the reason for this is the significant bastardisation of the language since it began from Proto-Albanian. It has nothing to do with their concrete certainty that Albanian was indeed either Illyrian or Thracian.
[QUOTE]I am aware that the information regarding these ancient idioms is extremely scarce, but we have to deal only with those glosses, words, toponymes that have links to modern languages. And a sizable number of them are linked with the Albanian.[/QUOTE]
But there are several more lexical correspondences that Thraco-Illyrian shares with Balto-Slavic. Shouldn't it be the other way around, if Albanian is the true descendant of these languages?
[QUOTE]I am left far from being persuaded.[/QUOTE]
If I can't persuade you with regard to that point, then take a look at a map from antiquity and a map from today, and you will persuade yourself when you notice that the overwhelming majority of territory inhabited by the Thracians and Illyrians is today peopled by Balto-Slavic speakers.
[QUOTE]If the speakers of Balto-Slavic are more representatives of Thracians than Albanians, then can you corroborate further your assertion with other arguments.[/QUOTE]
Aside from the geographical connection, language is another strong indicator. Sound changes, fundamental vocabulary and even lexical innovations are all probable. I will cite some examples in the other thread relating to the Macedonian and Albanian linguistic comparison.
[QUOTE]For instance, is there any cultural similarity of Balto-Slavs with the Thracians?[/QUOTE]
For the large part, culture evolves over the centuries, so I am not sure if too many placid and direct connections can be established between a modern culture and an ancient one. John Wilkes cites several possible examples between Illyrian and South Slavic cultures. Can you be more specific? Is there something that culturally links Albanians to Thracians or Illyrians that isn't shared by any other Balkan culture?
[QUOTE]Romans saw no difference at all between Mysians, Dacians and Illyrians.[/QUOTE]
I believe that all of the Paleo-Balkan peoples were linguistically related in a manner similar to how the majority of the Balkan populations are today, that majority being speakers of South Slavic languages. The reason why the Romans saw no difference is also attributed to the fact that they basically named the whole of the Balkan peninsula after Illyria, most probably because the Illyrians were geographically closest to Italy.
[QUOTE]The original is in Italian. I will find it and post here![/QUOTE]
Please do. I am curious to know how this was recorded as a quote by Skenderbeg. Did the author of the text know him personally?

Soldier of Macedon 05-08-2011 09:57 AM

[QUOTE="Droog"]SoM do you know what the term phonological development means?[/QUOTE]
I believe the answer to that would be yes, unless I have been locked in an underground cave all of my life with no access to reading material or the internet. Let me know if you have any more similarly presumptuous and silly questions.
[QUOTE]You're assuming that two words that seem similar to you[/QUOTE]
What, they only look similar to me, and not to you? I find your effort to negate the similarity of the two words quite comical, given that they represent [U]exactly the same thing[/U] and that they are spelled in [U]exactly the same way[/U]. I doubt the sound in each when pronounced differs in any significant way, it's not exactly a tongue-twister of a word. There is really only a few ways to pronounce 'gisht', and they're all similar.
[QUOTE]belong in the same era(which they obviously don't as I explained above) etc.[/QUOTE]
Your explanation was invalid. The term used by both the Albanians and the Zazaki today is not only similar, it is exactly the same. Have you looked into the history of the Zazaki word to prove beyond doubt that it hasn't followed a similar phonological development? Any reason why you think it wouldn't, aside from your desire to try and distance Albanian from Iranian languages, or some possible Illyrian fantasy that you harbour?
[QUOTE]You'd be making the same mistake with the word "name" that is the same in English and Zezaki.[/QUOTE]
Not exactly, because although Germanic and Iranian languages are both IE, they do not belong to common sub-groups that branched away from PIE. The same cannot be said with certainty regarding the Albanian language. What you need to ask yourself is this: [B]Which other IE language today uses something similar to 'gisht' for 'finger', aside from Albanian and Zazaki?[/B] Come back with some answers on that, and I may start to take your intervention here a little more seriously. It is quite a unique word so I am genuinely interested if anybody else uses it. All I am doing is exploring a possibility, and it's not like I am the first person to suggest a common link between Albanian and Iranian languages.

Onur 05-09-2011 05:33 PM

I found an interesting article about Illyrians and Albanians written by a Russian linguist. Epirot, you may find this interesting since you were talking about the similarities between Albanian and Romanian languages;

[QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B]The genesis of the Balkan Peoples[/B][/COLOR]

The formation of a people is the result of continuous and extremely complicated processes. In determining the ethnogenesis of the population of a region, the first question to be answered would seem to be: what is the origin of the tribes or peoples that dwelt in the region concerned in antiquity, that is to say, what were those peoples that represent the substratum of the contemporary ones? The first task to be solved is, therefore, the problem of the substratum, i.e. the problem of the protohistory of the region under examination.

The problem of the genesis of a people may be examined linguistically, historically, archaeologically and ethnologically. As a linguist, I shall try to put forward some linguistic considerations and data towards a solution of this problem in relation to the Balkan peoples.

For the periods for which there are no written documents archaeologists determine regions belonging to the same culture by means of the identification of excavated objects. Linguists use a similar method. The linguist's material consists of toponyms, especially those which present a fairly wide frequency. By specifying a region where a characteristic toponym often appears we are able to delimit a linguistic or ethnic unity. Thus on the basis of the very frequent place names of the type Brighton, Frinton, Honiton, Leamington, Luton, Northampton, Royston, Southampton, Taunton, etc. formed with -ton (= town) an English-speaking region can easily be determined. In the same way, on the basis of frequent toponyms of the type Neustadt, Bernstadt, Heiligenstadt, etc. it is possible to define a German-speaking region (German Stadt 'town', 'city'), and on the basis of the type Belgrad, Stargard, Vyšegrad, etc. a Slavonic-speaking region (Slavonic gard, grad 'town', 'city').

By means of this method, and also on the basis of various other considerations, linguistics in the last twenty years has achieved very important findings about the ancient population of the Balkan Peninsula.
[B]
VII. The Illyrian Region[/B]
A theory dominant for a long time was that the entire western part of the Balkan Peninsula was inhabited by Illyrians. But the ethnic situation in this part of the Peninsula is not so clear as in its other parts. Here toponyms with a large-scale frequency are not to be found. (in ) appears only four times, also four times and Ulc- (in Ulcisia, Ulcinium) three times.

After the recent studies of H. Kronasser, R. Katicic', Rendic'-Mioevic' and G. Alföldy, it can be regarded as very probable that Illyrian was spoken only in Illyria and some neighbouring regions. In middle Dalmatia another language was spoken, in Liburnia also another one (Liburnian), and the Venetic language was close to Latin, not to Illyrian. In the opinion of the present writer, Illyrian is an IE language intermediate between Venetic and Phrygian. This question still remains open.

Daco-Mysians, Thracians, Greeks, pre-Greeks, Macedonians, Phrygians and Illyrians formed, therefore, the main substratum that underlies the Balkan peoples of today. In the first half of the first millennium b.c. the Greek colonisation began, embracing the eastern and south-eastern shores of the Peninsula. In the first millennium a.d., ancient Thrace gradually became strongly Hellenised.

Towards the end of the first millennium b.c., the Roman conquest of the Balkan Peninsula began, gradually resulting in a partial Romanisation of the northern and north-western zones of the Peninsula. The so-called Jireek line that leads from northern Albania (Lesh) to Serdica (today Sofia) and north of the Balkan mountains as far as the Black Sea separates the two zones of Roman and Greek influence respectively. In the north-eastern part of the Balkan Peninsula, especially in the area of what is now Rumania, invasions of certain Iranian tribes occurred at different times from the 7th century b.c. After the 3rd century a.d. continuous invasions of Goths began, followed by various Turkic tribes as well as Slavs. Between the 6th and the 9th centuries a.d., Slavs occupied large parts of the northern central zone of the Peninsula, and penetrated also into some regions of its southern zone.

After the 14th century, the Peninsula was invaded by the Turks.

The mediaeval and modern history of the Balkan peoples is better known. Hence I would like to touch briefly only upon two very much disputed problems, namely, the origin of the Albanians and the Rumanians, and the invasion of the Slavs.
[B]
VIII. Albanians and Rumanians[/B]
Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians, although there are no other data supporting such a claim. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pārvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.
[LIST][*]The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.[/LIST][LIST][*]The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.[/LIST][LIST][*]The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.[/LIST][LIST][*]Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.[/LIST][LIST][*]The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.[/LIST][LIST][*]The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. lupt, Arum. luft, Alb. luftė

Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.[/LIST][LIST][*]Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazre = Alb. modhullė 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.

The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem. The most important fact to be revealed has been the separation of Daco-Mysian from Thracian. It has thus been established that the phonemic system of Albanian is descended directly from the Daco-Mysian.

In this way it has been definitively proved that Albanian is descended from Daco-Mysian. Therefore the primitive home of Albanian is a Daco-Mysian region, probably Mysia Superior (Dardania, Dacia Mediterranea) or western Dacia. This fact enables us to explain the numerous typical agreements between Albanian and Rumanian.

Rumanian and Albanian took shape in the Daco-Mysian region;
Rumanian represents a completely Romanised Daco-Mysian and Albanian a semi-Romanised Daco-Mysian.[/LIST]
Vladimir Georgiev (The Slavonic and East European Review 44, no. 103, 1960, pp. 285-297)

[url]http://groznijat.tripod.com/vg/vg.html[/url][/QUOTE]


Interesting article but it ignores the Iranian elements in Albanian language by totally focusing on Latin elements in it. Nevertheless, the author concludes it by saying that Albanians has been linguistically semi-assimilated by the Latins/Romans. Thats what i always thought about them too.

So, i still believe that Evliya Celebi`s writings about Albanians is the most reasonable claim about their origins.

Soldier of Macedon 05-09-2011 10:42 PM

Some of the points he makes are very significant. If we entertain the notion of an Iranian origin for the Proto-Albanians, we could probably outline a possible scenario as follows:

1) The Proto-Albanians started as a westward-migrating tribe from the eastern parts of 'Scythia' (or maybe even beyond)

2) By the 6th century, they reached areas north of the Danube, within close proximity to Dacia where Proto-Romanian was spoken

3) The formation of the Albanian language (from the original Proto-Albanian mixed with Slavic, east Latin, and others) is probably almost complete by the 9th or 10th century.

4) Come the 10th century, Hungarian advancements contributed to the mixture of people in parts of Pannonia and adjacent territories, which at that time were peopled by Slavs, Bulgars and Vlachs - as recorded in the [I]Gesta Hungarorum[/I].

5) From that region in Dacia, pastoral peoples migrated southwards throughout the Balkans, among whom were both Vlachs and Albanians, although there is little distinction between them at the time. Many of them settled in what came to be known as Albania.


Of course, this is just one scenario. It would be good to get non-sentimental opinions about why this may or may not have happened.

Epirot 05-11-2011 04:44 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;97952]I found an interesting article about Illyrians and Albanians written by a Russian linguist. Epirot, you may find this interesting since you were talking about the similarities between Albanian and Romanian languages;
[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the article! Vladimir Georgiev is beyond any doubt, a great linguist. By the way, he is not Russian, but Bulgarian:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I._Georgiev[/url]

Georgiev's article provides some interesting points, especially on Albanian-Rumanian connection. I agree at a certain degree with his conclusions that Dardania is the cradle of formation of Albanian people. But this doesn't mean that Albanians are not authochonous in Albania and Epirus as he suggests. The second error he made during his research on ethnogenesis of Albanians is that he ignore completely some Illyrian features of Albanian and other elements. Anyway, he admit that his hypothesis is not proper at all: [COLOR="Red"][B]"The above arguments are well known, but they have not been regarded as sufficient for a definitive solution of the problem". [/B][/COLOR]

I personally accept Georgiev's assertions as half-truth. He is right when he stresses out the Thracian component in Albanian, but he is dead wrong when he assumes that Albanians arrived in todays Albania. There is aboslutely no proof to witness any Albanian arrival in Albania.

[QUOTE]Interesting article but it ignores the Iranian elements in Albanian language by totally focusing on Latin elements in it. Nevertheless, the author concludes it by saying that Albanians has been linguistically semi-assimilated by the Latins/Romans. Thats what i always thought about them too.
[/QUOTE]

The Iranian elements in Albanian? That's weird! I haven't read not a single account elaborating the Iranian component of Albanian, so far! you're more than welcomed to present any detailed account in regard with your claim. Thanks!

[QUOTE]So, i still believe that Evliya Celebi`s writings about Albanians is the most reasonable claim about their origins[/QUOTE]

What? You're suggesting to take in consideration a 17th century travaler?? His credibility is disputed...which is why his assertions have no echo at modern scholarship. He wrote in his account as following:

[QUOTE]Accordingly, the Albanian people boast that they are descended from the Quraysh, the companions of the Prophet[/QUOTE]

I am pretty sure he was refering to a section of fanatic Islamic sects among Albanians who thought themselves as descendants of Prophet's companions. Albanians of Celebi's time had no idea who were 'Quraysh'. I heard no legend, no tradition about him...
For instance, Catholics all over the world may consider themselves as having descended from Jesus...Should we assume that they're remote descendants of Jesus's people!??

Onur 05-11-2011 12:44 PM

Epirot, you seem like a quite reasonable person but unfortunately you Albanians playing the same antiquity game like today`s noe-hellenes. I am quite sure that you have Illyrian heritage because you live in same place as they lived b4 but you gotta accept that no one in Balkans can relate their heritage with a single source and thats valid for Albanians too. So, you cant explain every cultural elements you have today with your Illyrian theory.


[QUOTE]The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.[/QUOTE]

This is quite an important indication that you have migrated to the current Albanian lands. For example, in Turkish, nearly all the names of fish types special to Aegean sea are Greek words and all most of the maritime terminology are Greek too. This is an indication that Turkish speakers wasn't living by the sea, at least not by the Aegean sea and we learned that terminology from the local Greek speaking inhabitants when we came here.

Btw tell us the names of fish types specific to your Adriatic coast and your maritime terminology. What is the etymology and roots of these words? The etymology of those words in your language would probably explain about who were living in current Albanian coasts when you came there and what language they were speaking.

Don't be afraid about that and don't be fooled with the game of Greeks play. You Albanians are living there for centuries or millenia and you don't need to be the descendants of ancient Illyrians to have a legitimacy for current Albania. Thats bullshit and a stupid thing. Greeks play that antiquity game because they have to since they cant claim any legitimacy for neither medieval nor modern age but this is not the case with you Albanians, so you don't need to do that.

I really appreciate your national unity with catholics, muslims, orthodoxs, living together peacefully by all being Albanians and i think your motto should be an example for all other Balkan states. But like i told you, you don't need to create and pursuit antique Illyrian myths to continue with this.



[QUOTE=Epirot;98171]The Iranian elements in Albanian? That's weird! I haven't read not a single account elaborating the Iranian component of Albanian, so far! you're more than welcomed to present any detailed account in regard with your claim. Thanks![/QUOTE]
Check this msg;

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3389[/url]

You will see that Albanian language is kinda distinct from all other languages but it gets it`s position close by Romanian in terms of grammatical features but for vocabulary, it`s standing by Indo-Iranian languages, Persian being closest.


So, what Evliya Celebi said about Albanians?;
Some Iranian tribe with the Albanians from Caucasus Albania migrated to current Albania from the north of Blacksea and they got mixed with the Frankish(Latin and Romance speakers) people in there.

I think this claim shouldn't be cast away so easily. Also did you ever wonder why we dont have anything about your islamisation? For example, we know that Bosnians was bogomils before and we have documents, illustrations and testimonies about their conversion but we have nothing about Albanians. It`s quite clear that Albanians was already muslim when Ottoman empire gone there in 1390s. Thats what Evliya Celebi learned from Albanian leaders in 17th century and wrote this.

Epirot 05-12-2011 07:26 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;98226]Epirot, you seem like a quite reasonable person but unfortunately you Albanians playing the same antiquity game like today`s noe-hellenes.
.[/QUOTE]

I do not think we have much in common with our assimilated southern brothers in regard with antiquity "games". It's only Albania that cannot be blamed for using selective parts of antiquity to legitimize its politic goals or something like that. I hope you get my point! Unlike Greece, Albania has never purified foreign cultural signs by reviving ancient Illyrian names. Greece when finished its invading campaigns in Epirus, Macedonia, Thessaly, Thrace and Aegean islands erased all "foreign names" by replacing with 'Hellenic' ones. That's why today, there are just a few 'foreign' names into Northern areas of Greece. Albanians never played with Illyrian cards to put forward territorial claims towards their neighbors. Albanians never emerged any expansionist platform on behalf of former Illyrian lands. This cannot be said for our 'Ellines'.

[QUOTE]Btw tell us the names of fish types specific to your Adriatic coast and your maritime terminology. What is the etymology and roots of these words? The etymology of those words in your language would probably explain about who were living in current Albanian coasts when you came there and what language they were speaking.. [/QUOTE]

E. Ēabej, the renowned specialist in linguistics stresses out that there are some original Albanian terms relating with sea, fish types, etc. I'll try to find out his account and to post parts of it here.

[QUOTE]It`s quite clear that Albanians was already muslim when Ottoman empire gone there in 1390s. Thats what Evliya Celebi learned from Albanian leaders in 17th century and wrote this[/QUOTE]

Your claim cannot sustain since there are incontestable evidences that Albanians were initially Christians before they passed as Muslims.

Soldier of Macedon 05-12-2011 08:35 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]Unlike Greece, Albania has never purified foreign cultural signs by reviving ancient Illyrian names. [/QUOTE]
Maybe not on placenames, but on personal names, you absolutely have. How many Albanians were called Bardyl or Teuta prior to the 19th century?
[QUOTE]Albanians never emerged any expansionist platform on behalf of former Illyrian lands.[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure about the distant past, but they certainly do now with the dreams of 'Dardania' in Kosovo and 'Ilirida' in Macedonia.
[QUOTE="Onur"]Some Iranian tribe with the Albanians from Caucasus Albania migrated to current Albania from the north of Blacksea and they got mixed with the Frankish(Latin and Romance speakers) people in there. [/QUOTE]
The Iranian theories need to be looked at more closely, there is definetly something there worthy of further research.

Epirot 05-14-2011 04:55 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;98365]Maybe not on placenames, but on personal names, you absolutely have. How many Albanians were called Bardyl or Teuta prior to the 19th century?.[/QUOTE]

To be honest, I simply do not know if 'Bardhyl' and 'Teuta were in use before XIXth century. But I've read that 'Agron' and 'Pirro' (Pyrrhus) were in use by Northern Albanians.

[QUOTE]I'm not sure about the distant past, but they certainly do now with the dreams of 'Dardania' in Kosovo and 'Ilirida' in Macedonia.[/QUOTE]

I assure you that Albanians of Kosova got their idendepence because their will was so and not because some politicans were inspired from the remote Dardanian past. When Albanians rose up against Serbian yoke, they did so because they wanted to be free. No Albanian was ever motivated from distant Illyrian past. It would be an absurd of its kind to struggle on behalf of antiquity past. But we have an exception here: for our southern assimilated brethern, it was that normal to struggle on behalf of the imaginary ancient Hellas...

Soldier of Macedon 05-15-2011 09:25 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;98464]To be honest, I simply do not know if 'Bardhyl' and 'Teuta were in use before XIXth century. But I've read that 'Agron' and 'Pirro' (Pyrrhus) were in use by Northern Albanians.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, I am almost certain of Bardyl and Teuta. With regard to Pirro and Agron, I don't know, at the moment I doubt it, but if you can provide something that proves this, then I have no issues accepting it.

Soldier of Macedon 05-16-2011 12:03 AM

The PIE root *[B][I]ank[/I][/B]- which means 'bend', ie; 'angle', gave rise to Latin [B][I]angulus[/I][/B], Greek [B][I]ankylοs[/I][/B], etc. Here is how the Zazaki word would have likely evolved:

Middle Persian [B][I]angust[/I][/B] -> Persian [B][I]angošt[/I][/B] -> Zazaki -> [B][I]gisht[/I][/B].

It appears that there may have been a stage during and after Indo-Iranian where the 'l' was still present in the word, hence, a hypothetical example for Proto-Iranian would perhaps be something like [B][I]angulust[/I][/B]. In this case, some similarities can be drawn when comparing the Iranian and Albanian word:

- Both eventually dropped the 'l' in the word
- Both eventually dropped the 'an' at the beginning of the word
- Both had an st ending which developed to a sht ending
- Both use the final product to describe a 'finger'

Coincidence or not, this is a very similar phonological development. And I am sure if one were to dig further there would be more examples.

Soldier of Macedon 07-17-2011 09:52 PM

[QUOTE="Soldier of Macedon"]Do you have any information on Michael Attaliates? He apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042. I have seen this repeated on the internet, but never confirmed with a source.[/QUOTE]
I wrote this earlier in the thread. The reason I bring it up again is because of what I read on an article relating to the Norman crusaders from wikipedia (although there is no source for it and the terminology relating to East Rome or Byzantium is somewhat bizzare):

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normans[/url]
[QUOTE]Several families of Byzantine Greece were of Norman mercenary origin during the period of the Comnenian Restoration, when Byzantine emperors were seeking out western European warriors. The Raoulii were descended from an Italo-Norman named Raoul, the Petraliphae were descended from a Pierre d'Aulps, and that [B]group of Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from Normans who served under George Maniaces in the Sicilian expedition of 1038.[/B][/QUOTE]
And the below relating to George Maniaces:

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Maniaces[/url]
[QUOTE]George Maniakes (Greek: Γεώργιος Μανιάκης, transliterated as Georgios Maniaces, Maniakis, or Maniaches, Italian: Giorgio Maniace) (died 1043) was a prominent Byzantine Greek general during the 11th century, he was the catepan of Italy in 1042. He is known as Gyrgir in Scandinavian sagas.[1]

Maniakes first became prominent during a campaign in 1031, when the Byzantine Empire was defeated at Aleppo but went on to capture Edessa from the Seljuk Turks.[B] His greatest achievement was the partial reconquest of Sicily from the Arabs beginning in 1038. Here, he was assisted by the Varangian Guard, which was at that time led by Harald Hardrada, who later became king of Norway. There were also Norman mercenaries with him[/B], under William de Hauteville, who won his nickname Iron Arm by defeating the emir of Syracuse in single combat. However, he soon ostracised his admiral, Stephen, whose wife was the sister of John the Eunuch, the highest ranking man at court, and, by publicly humiliating the leader of the Lombard contingent, Arduin, he caused them to desert him, with the Normans and Norsemen. In response, he was recalled by the emperor Michael IV, also brother-in-law of Stephen. Although the Arabs soon took the island back, Maniakes' successes there later inspired the Normans to invade Sicily themselves.

Maniakes' accomplishments in Sicily were largely ignored by the Emperor, and he revolted against Constantine IX in 1042, though he had been appointed catepan of Italy. The individual particularly responsible for antagonizing Maniakes into revolt was one Romanus Sclerus. Sclerus, like Maniakes, was one of the immensely wealthy landowners who owned large areas of Anatolia - his estates neighboured those of Maniakes and the two were rumoured to have attacked each other during a squabble over land. Sclerus owed his influence over the emperor to his famously charming sister the Sclerina, who, in most areas was a highly positive influence on Constantine. Finding himself in a position of power, Sclerus used it to poison Constantine against Maniakes - ransacking the latter's house and even seducing his wife, using the charm his family were famed for. Maniakes response, when faced with Sclerus demanding that he hand command of the empires forces in Apulia over to him, was to brutally torture the latter to death, after sealing his eyes, ears, nose and mouth with excrement.[2] Maniakes was then proclaimed emperor by his troops (including the Varangians), and marched towards Constantinople, in 1043 his army clashed with troops loyal to Constantine near Thessalonika, and though initially successful, Maniakes was killed during the melee after receiving a fatal wound (according to Psellus' account). Constantine's extravagant punishment of the surviving rebels was to parade them in the Hippodrome, seated backwards on donkeys. With his death, the rebellion ceased. In Sicily, the town of Maniace and the Syracusan fortress of Castello Maniace are both named after him.[/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 04:01 AM

I would like to suggest an alternative 'theory' as to the origin of the Albanian language. I will cite it in point form:

- By the 6th century, the Dacian region was populated by Balto-Slavic (and more specifically the Slavic component) peoples, in addition to Latin colonists and some Turkic and Iranian groups that were dominant (in terms of rule and not numbers) above the rest. Germanic by way of Gothic may have also had a presence. Most numerous was the Balto-Slavic group.

- By the 10th century, Hungarians had also moved near and into the area, adding another dimension to the already comsopolitan make-up and becoming the dominant force. A 'common tongue' probably began to take shape as a result of amalgamation between Balto-Slavic, Latin, Germanic and to a lesser degree Turkic, under the possible 'hegemony' of Iranian or Hungarian - but probably wasn't distinct enough and was used by too few a number, hence its absence from the Gesta Hungarorum.

- Groups from this region made several sporadic incursions into the Balkans. One of these groups may have settled in the western Balkans near the Adriatic coast and mingled with the local Slavic-speaking groups (who previously absorbed the related Illyrian populations and some of their characteristics, such as loanwords from ancient Greek). Aside from those speaking the 'common tongue', others spoke a predominantly Latin tongue (Vlachs), and this may be why there is often a lack of distinction between Albanians and Vlachs in the earlier centuries after they were first recorded.

- A group of Varangian and Norman warriors arrived in the western Balkans and fought under the leadership of George Maniaces, who reconquered parts of Sicily in 1038. A group of later Albanian clans known as the Maniakates were descended from these Norman warriors. The 'common tongue' may have been solidified during this period, which gave rise to Proto-Albanian.

Some of the above may loosely correlate with certain aspects of the explanation from Celebi:
[QUOTE]When the blessed Omar conquered Jerusalem, Jabal could not remain any longer in that place, so they boarded ships and took refuge with the king of Spain. Jabal-i Alhama was given the mountains of Dukat, Progonat and Frengis in the Albanian regions of Avlona and Delvina to live in, which were then under Spanish rule. These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and, mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic.[/QUOTE]
I guess the question would then be, how close are western Romance languages to Albanian? Is it more or less significant that the influence from Vulgar latin? Did Norman French have a similar effect in Albania as it did in England? Did Germanic languages play more of a role? Or was the Norman influence mainly restricted to creating conditions for a Proto-Albanian tongue to arise, rather than playing any significant part in terms of the language? The Italo-Celtic or Celto-Latin combination in languages makes for an interesting case, quite often the 'sound' of languages such as Portuguese appears similar to Albanian.

The above may be able to explain the various elements contributing the Albanian language and ethnos. Interested in any thoughts. To any Albanians answering, this is just an opinion which I have presented for criticism, so don't come here beating your chests, I want to see some logical suggestions and rebuttals.


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