Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   Macedonian History (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=879)

makedonin 11-20-2009 09:05 AM

Prolet, what you posted has nothing to do with the Ohrid Aherpiskopija.

Ohrid Aperhiskopija had jurisdiction over whole Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia (Kosovo) Montenegro, Moesia (Bulgaria with out Thracia), Romania and parts of Thessaly.

So it could not be Bulgarian in the sense that the Bulgarian claim it.

Bratot 11-20-2009 09:36 AM

Prolet, there are many churches built by the Macedonian community in oversea countries, which today have been usurped by the Bulgarian or Serbian churches in the period before 1960 and MPC.

[QUOTE]The work of the holy Apostle Paul and the holy emperor Justinian I was continued by the holy brothers Methodius and Cyril and their disciples Saints Clement and Nahum of Ohrid. In the second half of the 10th century, within the borders of Samuel's state, the autocephalous Ohrid Archdiocese was established with the rank of patriarchate, on the foundations of Justiniana Prima. After the fall of Samuel's state, the Ohrid Archdiocese was reduced to a lower rank of church hierarchy (archbishopric) and it existed as such for eight centuries,[B] until its abolishment in 1767 by the Turkish sultan Mustapha III ([B]my note: UN-CANONICALY[/B]) , and its dioceses were annexed to the Patriarchate of Constantinople[/B]. From this moment on Macedonian people made all possible efforts to restore the Archdiocese. Its dioceses were [B]under several jurisdictions [/B]of the neighbouring Orthodox Churches and this struggle became particularly fierce in the second part of the 19th and the first part of the 20th century. [U]Convenient conditions for restoration of the independence were created not earlier than during World War II (1941-1945). [/U]Right before the end of the war, in 1944, in the village of Gorno Vranovci, an Initiative Board for Organisation of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was formed. In March, 1945, in Skopje, a Resolution to restore the Archdiocese of Ohrid as Macedonian Orthodox Church was made at the First Clergy and Laity Assembly. This decision was submitted to the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church, [B][U][COLOR="Blue"]since before World War II several dioceses in Macedonia were under the United Orthodox Church of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, known later as Serbian Orthodox Church. [/COLOR][/U][/B]The Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church did not accept this decision, which resulted in the following actions of the Initiative Board: instead of as an autocephalous, the Board insisted on the Church being recognised as autonomous. This request was also rejected. In [B]1958, the Second Clergy and Laity Assembly was held in Ohrid and the proposal for restoration of the Ohrid Archdiocese of Saint Clement as a Macedonian Orthodox Church was accepted [/B]and Dositheus was appointed the first archbishop. [/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.mpc.org.mk/MPC/istorija.asp[/url]

One example is the church in Detroit sponsored by Ilic, our businessman who now refuse to donate for further church causes since he was fraud and instead a Macedonian church, now the church belongs to the Bulgarian authorities.

Prolet 11-20-2009 11:26 AM

Makedonin, You're right it doesnt but the Bulgarians are accusing us of stealing their churches.

Bratot, I thought Mike Ilich was Macedonian? He owns those Pizza shops throughout America im quite sure that he is part of MPO.

Why was he a fraud?? I thought he was a proud Macedonian??

I dont understand how can the Bulgarians take that church in Detroit?? Did they register it under the Bulgarian Orthodox Church?? The one in Toronto has Bulgarian flags all over it we are talking about 1910 here before Macedonia was divided.

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 12:17 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;27421]Bratot (The Brother)

Is it true that the first Macedonian Church in Canada was actually Bulgarian??

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KLXZHHcQyk]YouTube - The First "Macedonian" Church In Canada[/url]

I know for a fact that before the Ottoman Empire, we lead all the Orthodox Churches from Ohrid not CariGrad.[/QUOTE]

This post has nothing to do with this topic. However this can easily be refuted on many grounds.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUYnUHB3PY&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Keith Brown on the ethnic identity of Macedonians 1930-40's[/url]

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=835&page=8[/url]

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 01:55 PM

Bratot, Makedonin thanks for the replies. I guess this destroys yet another Bulgar myth that the Ohrid Archbishopric was "always Bulgarian" in the "nationalistic" sense that Bulgars would like to believe.

ohridski 11-20-2009 03:02 PM

[quote] Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?[/quote]

Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.

[quote] In the first half of the 20th century, most of the Macedonians were largely classified as Bulgarians or Macedono-Bulgarians.[13][14][15] At that time the political organization by the Slavic immigrants from the region of Macedonia - the Macedonian Patriotic Organization has also promoted the idea of Macedonian Slavs being Bulgarians.[16]
[/quote]

[quote] In 1910 they established Sts. Cyril and Methody Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Toronto. [10]
[/quote]

[quote] The church Saint's Cyril and Methodius was consecrated in Toronto in 1910. This was followed by the St. George Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the Holy Trinity Macedono-Bulgarian Church.
[/quote]

[quote] However the opinion of the President of the Central Committee George Lebamoff is that the MPO was pro-Bulgarian, but now the independent Republic of Macedonia needs help and it is time to forget the past. According to him, only Macedonians who were educated under the old Yugoslav government are anti-Bulgarian oriented.[8] Unexpectedly later in an interview for the Macedonian magazine "Kapital" he sharply criticized the policy of Republic of Macedonia stating, by this way, hiding the truth about the Bulgarian roots and history of the Macedonian people, it has no future.[9]
[/quote]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Canadians[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Patriotic_Organization[/url]

Daskalot 11-20-2009 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27443]Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.









[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Canadians[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Patriotic_Organization[/url][/QUOTE]

Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
By the looks of it you are.

Daskalot 11-20-2009 03:47 PM

Ok, you just disappeared so let me answer your above statements.

[QUOTE]but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.
[/QUOTE]

Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.

[QUOTE]There’s obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.[/QUOTE]

All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.

[QUOTE]From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?

[QUOTE]I’ve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but I’ve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.[/QUOTE]
I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?

[QUOTE]I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.[/QUOTE]
So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?

Risto the Great 11-20-2009 05:20 PM

Ohridski, there is no doubt there are similarities. But there is also no doubt the ancestry of these peoples is from different places. There is also no doubt which direction the language came from. I see Bulgarian as a dialect of Macedonian. Do you care to differ?

ohridski 11-20-2009 05:51 PM

[quote] Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
By the looks of it you are.[/quote]

Iím an ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid.. one of my parents is from Pirin Macedonia. But, Iím definitely not anti-Bulgarian. Iíve been to Bulgaria, and several other Balkan nations. From what Iíve seen, Bulgarians are the ones who mostly refer to Macedonians as Macedonians and not Vardarians or FYROMians etc.


[quote] Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.[/quote]

A little generic, donít you think? If we use this logic, we would be able to conclude that all ethnicities are linked as we are all humans. What I meant, is that it seems Macedonians and Bulgarians are most similar to each other than to any other group, be they Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, or Albanians. In fact, as far as I know, around 25% of Bulgarians are Macedonian descendents.


[quote] All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.[/quote]

From what Iíve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians were rather close in the past. I think its recent politics that have been driving a wedge between the two countries. Iíve also read that when Serbia and Greece occupied Macedonia in the early 1900ís, they aimed at claiming it as their own land. Bulgaria, however, seems to have promoted the idea of a Macedonia independent from the Ottomans. I also think that the past is reflected in more recent years, as Bulgaria was the first nation to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name after it separated from Yugoslavia.


[quote] Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?[/quote]

I donít know much about the Macedonian associations you speak of, but I havenít come across any sources, which state that Bulgarians imprisoned Macedonians solely due their ethnicity.
[quote] I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?[/quote]


As far as I know, there are three Macedono-Bulgarian churches and two Macedonian churches in Toronto. Iíve been to most of these. There is a separate Bulgarian and a separate Macedonian church in the surrounding areas. The interesting thing is that the Macedono-Bulgarian churches are the oldest and were built in the early 1900ís. The separate Bulgarian and Macedonian churches are more recent, they were built within the past 40-50 years or so. This is why I think that the differentiation between Macedonians and Bulgarians is mostly due to recent politics.


[quote] So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?[/quote]

Coming to a Macedonian forum, with people who actually speak the language fluently, I thought the responses would be more knowledgeable. The statement above is completely out of context. The Macedonian revolutionaries were fighting against the Ottomans, and later against Serbs and Greeks, they didnít fight Bulgarians. The Bulgarian government supported a free and independent Macedonia.

ĎMacedonia for the Macedoniansí has been used by people who have identified as ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Bulgarians alike.

ohridski 11-20-2009 06:09 PM

[quote]I see Bulgarian as a dialect of Macedonian. Do you care to differ?[/quote]

Is this a serious statement!? I don't think anyone can claim that Bulgarian is a dialect of Macedonian, just like no one can claim that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.

Both languages are based on regional dialects from within the countries today. The interesting thing is that Macedonian and Bulgarian are most similar to each other than to any other Slavic language. The Torlakian dialects also seem to share many similarities with Macedonian and Bulgarian that are absent from standard Serbian.

Have you not read Misirkoff?

Daskalot 11-20-2009 06:12 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27452]Iím an ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid.. one of my parents is from Pirin Macedonia. But, Iím definitely not anti-Bulgarian.[/QUOTE]

Ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid Macedonia by one parent coming from Pirin Macedonia, shall we assume that your other parent is/was from Ohrid then?

So how does this make you into an ETHNIC Canadian?

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 06:16 PM

Ohridski I see where you are coming from. I think all the peoples in the balkans share alot of the same cultural traits than they care to admit. We also derive alot of this culture from the 500 years of Ottoman rule. I think that politics has come between everyone in the Balkans. Before the rise of nationalism peoples referred to themselves regionally, as Romans or Christians, or through Socio-labor labels and rarely as "Serbians" "Croatians" "Macedonians" "Romanians" etc, in a nationalistic sense.
If we put a Croat and a Serb in a room together would we know who was who if we just walked into the middle of their conversation? Probably not. Their divide is a religious one. Not a linguistic one (all nationalism on the side, of course). However we cannot base ethnicity solely on linguistics. This is not a sort of "ethnicity radar".

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 06:18 PM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;27455]Ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid Macedonia by one parent coming from Pirin Macedonia, shall we assume that your other parent is/was from Ohrid then?

So how does this make you into an ETHNIC Canadian?[/QUOTE]


The only way that could happen is if he was a Native Indian. I highly doubt that.

Daskalot 11-20-2009 06:18 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27454]Is this a serious statement!? I don't think anyone can claim that Bulgarian is a dialect of Macedonian, just like no one can claim that Macedonian is a dialect of Bulgarian.

Both languages are based on regional dialects from within the countries today. The interesting thing is that Macedonian and Bulgarian are most similar to each other than to any other Slavic language. The Torlakian dialects also seem to share many similarities with Macedonian and Bulgarian that are absent from standard Serbian.

Have you not read Misirkoff?[/QUOTE]

If none can claim the one being a dialect of the other why are you then so keen on highlighting the similarities, would you be equally keen on highlighting the similarities between Croatian and Serbian to?

Macedonian shares many similarities with both Serbian and Bulgarian.

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 06:20 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27443]Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.









[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Canadians[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Patriotic_Organization[/url][/QUOTE]


Please don't use wiki because I could claim that Michael Jordan is chinese on there.

As for why Macedonians would tend to lean more towards the Bulgarians here's some reasons why - [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1929[/url]

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 06:31 PM

So I guess now would be a good time to ask if in 1767 when the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished was it to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?

ohridski 11-20-2009 06:35 PM

Ethnicity is a learned trait, not an inherited one. Iíve spent most of my life in Canada and I feel Canadian. Iím not a Native Canadian, but Iím Canadian none the less!


[quote] If none can claim the one being a dialect of the other why are you then so keen on highlighting the similarities, would you be equally keen on highlighting the similarities between Croatian and Serbian to?[/quote]

Why are you so keen on emphasizing the differences?

And whatís wrong with Wikipedia? I find it to be much more objective than some supposed scholars. And in this case, as Iíve mentioned, Iíve been to these churches.

Bratot 11-20-2009 09:18 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;27428]Makedonin, You're right it doesnt but the Bulgarians are accusing us of stealing their churches.

Bratot, I thought Mike Ilich was Macedonian? He owns those Pizza shops throughout America im quite sure that he is part of MPO.

Why was he a fraud?? I thought he was a proud Macedonian??

I dont understand how can the Bulgarians take that church in Detroit?? Did they register it under the Bulgarian Orthodox Church?? The one in Toronto has Bulgarian flags all over it we are talking about 1910 here before Macedonia was divided.[/QUOTE]

Prolet,

Ilich is Macedonian, he is not the fraud - he was the victim of it.

Ask the Macedonian community about the case, I just talked recently to one of them who told me that story. I have no reasons not to believe him.



[QUOTE=ohridski;27463]Ethnicity is a learned trait, not an inherited one. Iíve spent most of my life in Canada and I feel Canadian. Iím not a Native Canadian, but Iím Canadian none the less!




Why are you so keen on emphasizing the differences?

And whatís wrong with Wikipedia? I find it to be much more objective than some supposed scholars. And in this case, as Iíve mentioned, Iíve been to these churches.[/QUOTE]

Idi bre izgubi se od ovde, ebate stalkerot.

Zimi kurov slucajno se pojavi na temava, na dedo ti sestrata vakvi prikazni da i raskazuvas.


P.S. Old fashioned, bulgarian deja vu propaganda. Always claiming some ancestry from Ohrid(mk) or Pirin just to add some value to the propaganda, those kind of bullshits keep for yourself Ganchos.

Try to full around with some other ppl!Not here!

Prolet 11-21-2009 12:55 AM

[QUOTE]So I guess now would be a good time to ask if in 1767 when the Ohrid Archbishopric was abolished was it to Hellenize the population in Macedonia?
[/QUOTE]

No it not, it is a good thread though for our churches relating to the Bulgarian one and the first church built in Canada.

[QUOTE]Please don't use wiki because I could claim that Michael Jordan is chinese on there. [/QUOTE]

I do agree its not exactly the most reliable source of information

[QUOTE]Prolet,

Ilich is Macedonian, he is not the fraud - he was the victim of it.

Ask the Macedonian community about the case, I just talked recently to one of them who told me that story. I have no reasons not to believe him.[/QUOTE]

Bratot, Why is it that these Billionaires dont do anything for Macedonia?? With a few hundred thousand they could renovate 5-6 churches there. At the very least they can buy a house in Macedonia, look at the Greek Billionaires they've spent a fortune in Greece.

Speaking of Mike Ilich if he is part of MPO then it means he is pulling towards Bulgaria, sure its good to get his help in certain ways but i wouldn't want a person like him leading Macedonian Politics, we can be friends with the Bulgarians i got no problem with that and i encourage good neighborly relations however we are Macedonians and they are Bulgarians and we have to keep it at that.

We had a situation here were the Bulgarians took our church Sveti Kiril i Metodija in Northcote,Melbourne this church and land is valued at over $20 million its massive and we lost it because it was registered under BPC because we where still under Serbian Occupation. From what people tell me that church is now a ghost town, hardly anybody goes there.

George S. 11-21-2009 07:28 AM

I remember reading that during the ottoman occupation both Bulgarian & Greek clergy were busy infiltrating the Macedonian churches trying to teach the population that they were either Greek or Bulgarian.This is in the 16,000-17000s.THese clergy were working in a frenzy trying to change the religion of their respective populations.Obviously people writing about it keep harping that Macedonians are Bulgars or Greeks.The macedonian people are not stupid to change their religion for the sake of some clergy.

ohridski 11-21-2009 12:44 PM

[quote]I remember reading that during the ottoman occupation both Bulgarian & Greek clergy were busy infiltrating the Macedonian churches trying to teach the population that they were either Greek or Bulgarian.This is in the 16,000-17000s.THese clergy were working in a frenzy trying to change the religion of their respective populations.Obviously people writing about it keep harping that Macedonians are Bulgars or Greeks.The macedonian people are not stupid to change their religion for the sake of some clergy.[/quote]

George, I think you are a bit confused. The religion of Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Greeks is one and the same; Eastern Orthodox.

It was the Greek clergy that had full authority in the Ottoman lands, and Macedonians and Bulgarians alike were grouped under the Greek Millet. No one was changing the religion, as it was/is the same religion, the Greeks were just seen as the official administrative unit of Eastern Orthodox populations in Macedonia and Bulgaria.

And if you really read up on this topic in detail.. it seems that most of the Bulgarian clergy were Macedonians.

This is exactly what I’m trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.

Soldier of Macedon 11-21-2009 01:14 PM

[QUOTE="Bratot"]P.S. Old fashioned, bulgarian deja vu propaganda. Always claiming some ancestry from Ohrid(mk) or Pirin just to add some value to the propaganda, those kind of bullshits keep for yourself Ganchos.[/QUOTE]
While responding to Ohridski in another thread, I had a feeling he may be another pretender. And then I see this thread. They just keep coming and coming, these liars and pretenders do.
[QUOTE="Ohridski]This is exactly what I’m trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.[/QUOTE]
If they are that obvious even to an 'ethnic Canadian' like yourself, why are you still trying to learn about them? What are they? Why are they so?

George S. 11-21-2009 01:15 PM

Ohridski, i know what i'm talking about.I don't beleive that the Macedonians ie the clergy would teach their flock bulgarian.You forget that during the ottoman occupation the Bulgarian clergy were trying to teach the Macedonians that they were Bulgarian.This was heavy duty propaganda from the bulgarians aimed to the macedonians to tell them that they were bulgarian.You say it was Macedonian clergy that's wrong why would macedonians teach themselves to be bulgarian???Why did the bulgarians try to do this it was for dominance.Over time we can see like the other neighbouring countries like bulgaria
wanted macedonian lands.If you look at your history there is no BUlgarians they are tartars.They adopted the macedonian language & customs.THat is the only link we have with the bulgarians.

ohridski 11-21-2009 01:43 PM

[quote] If they are that obvious even to an 'ethnic Canadian' like yourself, why are you still trying to learn about them? What are they? Why are they so?[/quote]
My degree is in international relations.. Itís interesting for me.. Iíd like to learn more about my birthplace and the region altogether, as there are so many different sides and perspectives.

One of my parents is from Macedonia and the other from Bulgaria, but I grew up in Canada.

[quote] Ohridski, i know what i'm talking about.I don't beleive that the Macedonians ie the clergy would teach their flock bulgarian.You forget that during the ottoman occupation the Bulgarian clergy were trying to teach the Macedonians that they were Bulgarian.This was heavy duty propaganda from the bulgarians aimed to the macedonians to tell them that they were bulgarian.You say it was Macedonian clergy that's wrong why would macedonians teach themselves to be bulgarian???Why did the bulgarians try to do this it was for dominance.Over time we can see like the other neighbouring countries like bulgaria
wanted macedonian lands.[/quote]
I have never come across any sources from the early 1900's, which show that Bulgaria tried to claim Macedonian lands as its own. All sources from the early 1900ís show that Bulgaria wanted an independent Macedonia, free from the Ottomans.

Soldier of Macedon 11-21-2009 01:49 PM

[QUOTE]One of my parents is from Macedonia and the other from Bulgaria.........[/QUOTE]
All the more reason why you should be familiar with these similarities or 'connections' that you speak of. Yet still, you haven't defined them. Are you waiting for something?
[QUOTE]All sources from the early 1900’s show that Bulgaria wanted an independent Macedonia, free from the Ottomans.[/QUOTE]
Which sources? Which Bulgarians? Can you corroborate anything you are saying, or are you saying it just for the sake of saying it?

ohridski 11-21-2009 02:09 PM

[quote]

All the more reason why you should be familiar with these similarities or 'connections' that you speak of. Yet still, you haven't defined them. Are you waiting for something?[/quote]
I already mentioned that from what I know and from what Iíve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians seem to be most similar to each other than to anyone else. The culture, the cuisine, the traditions, the national heroes etc. are pretty much identical, yet it looks to me that Macedonians in general feel closest to Serbs than anyone else.
[quote] Which sources? Which Bulgarians? Can you corroborate anything you are saying, or are you saying it just for the sake of saying it?[/quote]
Of course I can. However, I didnít come to this forum to try and convince anyone of anything. Even if I made the effort to go through all the books Iíve read, the members on here will most likely ignore these findings. It seems everyone on here tries to differentiate Macedonians from their neighbors, and any similarities that are found are brushed over to the side.

Soldier of Macedon 11-21-2009 02:21 PM

[QUOTE]The culture, the cuisine, the traditions, the national heroes etc. are pretty much identical, yet it looks to me that Macedonians in general feel closest to Serbs than anyone else.[/QUOTE]
What culture, cuisine and traditions? How much of it is not shared by other neighbours? Why the lack of transparency in your posts? Who are you to make the false judgement that Macedonians feel closer to Serbs than anyone else? Which Macedonians, from the Republic? From Pirin? You're a propagandist fool.

Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?

[QUOTE]It seems everyone on here tries to differentiate Macedonians from their neighbors[/QUOTE]
Is there something wrong with people that are dedicated to the unique aspects of Macedonian culture? It seems that your whole aim since you arrived here has been to deface anything unique about Macedonian culture and smear it with Bulgar or Serb lies.

You must be a sad little person. And if you really are from where you claim, then you don't know the first thing about your true history. Go and find a Bulgar to hug and talk about your 'connections', it will make you feel better than dealing with people who will, by default, bring reality and the Macedonian truth to your attention, wether you like it or not.

ohridski 11-21-2009 04:02 PM

[quote] Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?[/quote]
Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth. These are all shared. I don't know of any such historic figures that are shared between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.
[quote] What culture, cuisine and traditions? How much of it is not shared by other neighbours? Why the lack of transparency in your posts? Who are you to make the false judgement that Macedonians feel closer to Serbs than anyone else? Which Macedonians, from the Republic? From Pirin? You're a propagandist fool.[/quote]
Just an observation based on the people Iíve come across in real life.
[quote] Is there something wrong with people that are dedicated to the unique aspects of Macedonian culture? It seems that your whole aim since you arrived here has been to deface anything unique about Macedonian culture and smear it with Bulgar or Serb lies.[/quote]
Iím sorry you feel that way; my aim was to explore a neutral point of view.
[quote] You must be a sad little person. And if you really are from where you claim, then you don't know the first thing about your true history. Go and find a Bulgar to hug and talk about your 'connections', it will make you feel better than dealing with people who will, by default, bring reality and the Macedonian truth to your attention, wether you like it or not.
[/quote]
This is the problem.. instead of exploring the possibilities, you choose to be defensive and not talk about them.

As I said, from what Iíve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians were much closer in the past then they are today, which is why I believe that the differences are primarily political. Why else would Macedonians immigrate to Bulgaria when the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia? About ľ of Bulgarians today descend from Macedonia.

On the other hand, I donít know of any Bulgarian invasion in Macedonia that caused Macedonians to immigrate to Serbia or Greece.

TrueMacedonian 11-21-2009 04:06 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27509]George, I think you are a bit confused. The religion of Macedonians, Bulgarians, and Greeks is one and the same; Eastern Orthodox.

It was the Greek clergy that had full authority in the Ottoman lands, and Macedonians and Bulgarians alike were grouped under the Greek Millet. No one was changing the religion, as it was/is the same religion, the Greeks were just seen as the official administrative unit of Eastern Orthodox populations in Macedonia and Bulgaria.

And if you really read up on this topic in detail.. it seems that most of the Bulgarian clergy were Macedonians.

This is exactly what Iím trying to learn more about, there was obviously some connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that was not shared by either Serbs or Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Hmmm,,, Why must we assume that this clergy was "greek"? Are you referring to them as "greek" in a nationalistic sense?

ohridski 11-21-2009 04:13 PM

Within the Ottoman Empire, the East Orthodox populations were all administratively placed under the Greek Millet. The clergy of the Greek Millet was Greek. There are many uncertainties as, even today, a person who is East Orthodox and speaks Greek is considered to be purely Greek in Greece.

TrueMacedonian 11-21-2009 04:20 PM

SoM asked;
[QUOTE]Which national heroes? Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?[/QUOTE]
Ohridski answered;
[QUOTE]Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth. These are all shared. I don't know of any such historic figures that are shared between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Gruev was born in Smilevo, Sandanski near Melnik, and Misirkov in Pella. The Bulgarians celebrate our heroes because of their state propaganda. Now if you wish to discuss nationalism and use of the term "Bulgarian" amongst the Macedonians, including Misirkov, then let's take it here - [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=835[/url]

ohridski 11-21-2009 04:33 PM

[quote] Gruev was born in Smilevo, Sandanski near Melnik, and Misirkov in Pella.[/quote]
So then we are to judge a person’s ethnicity based on their birth place!? I was born in Ohrid, but I feel Canadian and identify as such ethnically.

Are we to conclude that if a white person is born in Africa that person should be classified as an ethnic African?

The point is that all of the shared national heroes (between Macedonia and Bulgaria) have at one point or another identified as both; Macedonian and Bulgarian.

And as I mentioned before, ethnicity is a learned trait. You are what you feel yourself to be, you are not born as an ethnic anything.

TrueMacedonian 11-21-2009 04:45 PM

[QUOTE]So then we are to judge a person’s ethnicity based on their birth place!? I was born in Ohrid, but I feel Canadian and identify as such ethnically.

Are we to conclude that if a white person is born in Africa that person should be classified as an ethnic African?[/QUOTE]

You just contradicted yourself in the worse way. But I guess this is just a habit of yours.

[QUOTE]The point is that all of the shared national heroes (between Macedonia and Bulgaria) have at one point or another identified as both; Macedonian and Bulgarian.[/QUOTE]

Yes and there are plenty of reasons why they identified as both. However not in the way you are thinking.

[QUOTE]And as I mentioned before, ethnicity is a learned trait. You are what you feel yourself to be, you are not born as an ethnic anything.[/QUOTE]

This is what anthropologists have called "imagined communities"(Benedict Anderson). Great in theory concerning communities. However this falls to the wayside if you are born to parents of the same ethnicity or of different ethnicities, whether you like it or not the truth is you are not an ethnic Canadian. No such thing exists. A citizen of Canada you very well may be. Just like a citizen of modern "greece". You may "feel" Canadian through their North Americanized culture. However you are not an ethnic Canadian so stop with the bullshit already. If you want a serious debate then let's have at it or don't waste the forums time with your 15 year old answers. If you want to discuss when [B]Nationalism[/B] discovered the Balkans en mass then we can discuss this too. Because there you will see the absurdity of what you call "Bulgarian", a new born state and ideology, start a rigorous propaganda program for Macedonia. I suggest you click the link I posted in the above post. If you are supposedly neutral then click the link and let's take it from there.

TrueMacedonian 11-21-2009 04:49 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27537]Within the Ottoman Empire, the East Orthodox populations were all administratively placed under the Greek Millet. The clergy of the Greek Millet was Greek. There are many uncertainties as, even today, a person who is East Orthodox and speaks Greek is considered to be purely Greek in Greece.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately I don't think this to be true. I think that the supposed "greek" clergy was first and foremost a Christian in the [B][I]RUM[/I][/B] millet. Not the "greek" millet that modern "greek" nationalists assert. If the clergy did call themselves anything it would have been Rum or "Roman", not "greek". Misinterpretations like these are unwarranted.

Risto the Great 11-21-2009 05:05 PM

Ohridski, are you suggesting the people in charge of the church were Greek after the Phanariot fueled abolishing of the Ohrid Archbishopric? Or are you saying it was always Greek? Define Greek within that context instead of making basic and stupid assumptions.

Soldier of Macedon 11-21-2009 08:04 PM

[QUOTE]Dame Gruev, Krste Misirkov, Yane Sandanski and so forth.[/QUOTE]
My question was - [B]Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians?[/B] Well, can you?

Your comments and views are outdated and simply wrong. Rather than coming here to understand our side, you support the views of Macedonia's enemies and ask for understanding in the name of neutrality, you are no better than the other liars, propagandists and deliberately confused racists that are more openly brazen. The only difference with you is that you try and veil your racisms with civility, but your aims are still more than obvious, know that.
[QUOTE]Why else would Macedonians immigrate to Bulgaria when the Serbs and Greeks occupied Macedonia? About ľ of Bulgarians today descend from Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
You have no clue about the historical circumstances, and it is clear that you have no intention to accept the truth.

In response to an accusation by a Greek interviewer, where it was suggested that the Macedonians wished to unite with Bulgaria, Nikola Karev stated the following:

[QUOTE]We resemble a man who has fallen in the sea and is in danger of drowning any moment. In order to save himself will this man not grab anything he finds before him at the moment, [B]even a snake?[/B] We are in this kind of situation. Even if a Turk offers his hand to save us, we will grab it with gratitude. (Acropolis, 8th May 1903)[/QUOTE]

Is that not neutral? If you want to be neutral, understand the Macedonian perspective and stop trying to smother us with one-sided propaganda that has only the aim of dividing the Macedonians between their neighbours. You want neutral? Let the Macedonians be Macedonians, and go and look for 'connections' and similarities between Croats and Serbs, you will find plenty more there than you will between Macedonians and Bulgars.

ohridski 11-21-2009 08:58 PM

[quote] This is what anthropologists have called "imagined communities"(Benedict Anderson). Great in theory concerning communities. However this falls to the wayside if you are born to parents of the same ethnicity or of different ethnicities, whether you like it or not the truth is you are not an ethnic Canadian. No such thing exists. A citizen of Canada you very well may be. Just like a citizen of modern "greece". You may "feel" Canadian through their North Americanized culture. However you are not an ethnic Canadian so stop with the bullshit already. If you want a serious debate then let's have at it or don't waste the forums time with your 15 year old answers. If you want to discuss when Nationalism discovered the Balkans en mass then we can discuss this too. Because there you will see the absurdity of what you call "Bulgarian", a new born state and ideology, start a rigorous propaganda program for Macedonia. I suggest you click the link I posted in the above post. If you are supposedly neutral then click the link and let's take it from there.[/quote]
This is a rather ignorant response. An ethnic Canadian is any person who feels as such, that’s that.
[quote] Unfortunately I don't think this to be true. I think that the supposed "greek" clergy was first and foremost a Christian in the RUM millet. Not the "greek" millet that modern "greek" nationalists assert. If the clergy did call themselves anything it would have been Rum or "Roman", not "greek". Misinterpretations like these are unwarranted.[/quote]
Rum or Romaeoi is a term that may be used synonymously to Greek.
[quote] ________________________________________
Ohridski, are you suggesting the people in charge of the church were Greek after the Phanariot fueled abolishing of the Ohrid Archbishopric? Or are you saying it was always Greek? Define Greek within that context instead of making basic and stupid assumptions.
[/quote]
Greek Millet = Rum Millet
[quote] My question was - Can you tell me which 'heroes' from Bulgaria are celebrated by Macedonians? Well, can you?[/quote]
Samuel for example
[quote] Your comments and views are outdated and simply wrong. Rather than coming here to understand our side, you support the views of Macedonia's enemies and ask for understanding in the name of neutrality, you are no better than the other liars, propagandists and deliberately confused racists that are more openly brazen. The only difference with you is that you try and veil your racisms with civility, but your aims are still more than obvious, know that.[/quote]
I think you misunderstand. I believe that Macedonian is an ethnicity separate from the Bulgarian, Serbian, and Greek ones. But from what I’ve read, there is some sort of connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that didn’t exist between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks. I don’t understand why you’d call me a racist based on what I’ve said. If you are a little more objective we may indeed be able to have a proper discussion.

[quote] You have no clue about the historical circumstances, and it is clear that you have no intention to accept the truth.

In response to an accusation by a Greek interviewer, where it was suggested that the Macedonians wished to unite with Bulgaria, Nikola Karev stated the following:[/quote]
But you claim that Bulgarians have committed the same atrocities to Macedonians that were committed by Serbs and Greeks. Clearly, that would not have been the case, and your statement shows exactly that. If Macedonians were willingly immigrating to Bulgaria that means that Bulgaria was not seen as an enemy, and if it was, it wasn’t seen the same way that Serbs and Greeks were seen.

[quote] Let the Macedonians be Macedonians, and go and look for 'connections' and similarities between Croats and Serbs, you will find plenty more there than you will between Macedonians and Bulgars.[/quote]
I never disputed that Macedonians are Macedonians.. and if I was born in Serbia or Croatia, my interest may indeed have been focused elsewhere.

George S. 11-21-2009 10:04 PM

Ohridski there is a connection between Bulgarians & Macedonians & it's called zilch,zero connection.We have no connection.Did you know there's no such thing as bulgarian it doesn't exist.THe Bulgarians are descended from the Tartars,they adopted the Macedonian language & customs.The rest is propaganda.You have no idea what you have been talking about.Bulgaria had a pretence to take the whole of Macedonia It probably still does.It is harbouring irrendentist ideals.There is absolutely no connection between Tartars & Macedonians.It's like chalk & chesse.Stop sking silly questions we have seen the bullshit that went on under bulgarian propaganda.Bulgaria have allways stated that Macedonians are Bulgarians,Greece has stated Macedonians don't exist Greece is MacedoniaTHey can't make up their mind.The only connection is the crap propaganda you beleive that there is some kind of connection,you'll beleive that incessantly.Real Bulgaria does not exist it was wiped off thousands of years & then the Tartars came they are similar to the MONGOLS who adopted THE MACEDONIAN language,customs,Macedonian heroes,music,dancing,they try to say everything is Bulgarian which we know IS FALSE.

Soldier of Macedon 11-21-2009 10:56 PM

[QUOTE]Samuel for example[/QUOTE]
Is that it, just one example? That's some connection, you made it sound like there were thousands. [B]Please refer me to the contemporary or medieval source that states Samuel's birthplace[/B], and a logical explanation as to why, even after he took control of the territory of the old Bulgar kingdom in Moesia, he did not move his capital, patriarchate, centre of control back to Bulgaria? Why in Macedonia instead of his apparent "birthplace" which was under his control?
[QUOTE]But from what I’ve read, there is some sort of connection between Macedonians and Bulgarians that didn’t exist between Macedonians and Serbs or Greeks.[/QUOTE]
Have I denied anywhere that Macedonians and Bulgarians share similarities that are not shared with others? No. However, you dwell on these similarities like its the 'glue' that should have kept us 'together' with the Bulgars. We saw how well that type of 'glue' worked with the much stronger linguistic and cultural similarities shared by Serbs, Croats, Bosnians and Montenegrins in the late 20th century. Yet, even since the early 19th century Macedonians have been telling Bulgars that despite our similarities we are different ethnicities and we want our own.

Why are the similarities so important to you? What are you trying to establish?
[QUOTE]I don’t understand why you’d call me a racist based on what I’ve said.[/QUOTE]
You are alluding to the Macedonian revolutionaries and Macedonians in general as having a 'connection' to the Bulgars, and you are doing your utmost to keep the significance on that point. Again, why are these 'connections' so important to you? What's next, the proposal of union? Would you be in support of such an idea?
[QUOTE]But you claim that Bulgarians have committed the same atrocities to Macedonians that were committed by Serbs and Greeks.[/QUOTE]
Where do I claim that which you quote, in the way you just wrote above? Were Bulgarians as evil an enemy for the Macedonians? Absolutely. You seem to keep suggesting that by the 1900's the Bulgars weren't doing anything untoward in respect to Macedonia and the Macedonians, yet, in 1903, Krste Misirkov wrote the following:
[QUOTE]Oh, Macedonians! [B]It is time we realized that the greatest demon Macedonia must battle against is none other than Bulgaria[/B] (On Macedonian Matters, Misirkov, 1903)[/QUOTE]


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:03 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation