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-   -   Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=879)

makedonin 11-20-2009 09:05 AM

Prolet, what you posted has nothing to do with the Ohrid Aherpiskopija.

Ohrid Aperhiskopija had jurisdiction over whole Macedonia, Bosnia, Serbia (Kosovo) Montenegro, Moesia (Bulgaria with out Thracia), Romania and parts of Thessaly.

So it could not be Bulgarian in the sense that the Bulgarian claim it.

Bratot 11-20-2009 09:36 AM

Prolet, there are many churches built by the Macedonian community in oversea countries, which today have been usurped by the Bulgarian or Serbian churches in the period before 1960 and MPC.

[QUOTE]The work of the holy Apostle Paul and the holy emperor Justinian I was continued by the holy brothers Methodius and Cyril and their disciples Saints Clement and Nahum of Ohrid. In the second half of the 10th century, within the borders of Samuel's state, the autocephalous Ohrid Archdiocese was established with the rank of patriarchate, on the foundations of Justiniana Prima. After the fall of Samuel's state, the Ohrid Archdiocese was reduced to a lower rank of church hierarchy (archbishopric) and it existed as such for eight centuries,[B] until its abolishment in 1767 by the Turkish sultan Mustapha III ([B]my note: UN-CANONICALY[/B]) , and its dioceses were annexed to the Patriarchate of Constantinople[/B]. From this moment on Macedonian people made all possible efforts to restore the Archdiocese. Its dioceses were [B]under several jurisdictions [/B]of the neighbouring Orthodox Churches and this struggle became particularly fierce in the second part of the 19th and the first part of the 20th century. [U]Convenient conditions for restoration of the independence were created not earlier than during World War II (1941-1945). [/U]Right before the end of the war, in 1944, in the village of Gorno Vranovci, an Initiative Board for Organisation of the Macedonian Orthodox Church was formed. In March, 1945, in Skopje, a Resolution to restore the Archdiocese of Ohrid as Macedonian Orthodox Church was made at the First Clergy and Laity Assembly. This decision was submitted to the Holy Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church, [B][U][COLOR="Blue"]since before World War II several dioceses in Macedonia were under the United Orthodox Church of Serbs, Croats and Slovenians, known later as Serbian Orthodox Church. [/COLOR][/U][/B]The Synod of the Serbian Orthodox Church did not accept this decision, which resulted in the following actions of the Initiative Board: instead of as an autocephalous, the Board insisted on the Church being recognised as autonomous. This request was also rejected. In [B]1958, the Second Clergy and Laity Assembly was held in Ohrid and the proposal for restoration of the Ohrid Archdiocese of Saint Clement as a Macedonian Orthodox Church was accepted [/B]and Dositheus was appointed the first archbishop. [/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.mpc.org.mk/MPC/istorija.asp[/url]

One example is the church in Detroit sponsored by Ilic, our businessman who now refuse to donate for further church causes since he was fraud and instead a Macedonian church, now the church belongs to the Bulgarian authorities.

Prolet 11-20-2009 11:26 AM

Makedonin, You're right it doesnt but the Bulgarians are accusing us of stealing their churches.

Bratot, I thought Mike Ilich was Macedonian? He owns those Pizza shops throughout America im quite sure that he is part of MPO.

Why was he a fraud?? I thought he was a proud Macedonian??

I dont understand how can the Bulgarians take that church in Detroit?? Did they register it under the Bulgarian Orthodox Church?? The one in Toronto has Bulgarian flags all over it we are talking about 1910 here before Macedonia was divided.

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 12:17 PM

[QUOTE=Prolet;27421]Bratot (The Brother)

Is it true that the first Macedonian Church in Canada was actually Bulgarian??

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KLXZHHcQyk]YouTube - The First "Macedonian" Church In Canada[/url]

I know for a fact that before the Ottoman Empire, we lead all the Orthodox Churches from Ohrid not CariGrad.[/QUOTE]

This post has nothing to do with this topic. However this can easily be refuted on many grounds.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktUYnUHB3PY&feature=player_embedded]YouTube - Keith Brown on the ethnic identity of Macedonians 1930-40's[/url]

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=835&page=8[/url]

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 01:55 PM

Bratot, Makedonin thanks for the replies. I guess this destroys yet another Bulgar myth that the Ohrid Archbishopric was "always Bulgarian" in the "nationalistic" sense that Bulgars would like to believe.

ohridski 11-20-2009 03:02 PM

[quote] Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?[/quote]

Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.

[quote] In the first half of the 20th century, most of the Macedonians were largely classified as Bulgarians or Macedono-Bulgarians.[13][14][15] At that time the political organization by the Slavic immigrants from the region of Macedonia - the Macedonian Patriotic Organization has also promoted the idea of Macedonian Slavs being Bulgarians.[16]
[/quote]

[quote] In 1910 they established Sts. Cyril and Methody Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church in Toronto. [10]
[/quote]

[quote] The church Saint's Cyril and Methodius was consecrated in Toronto in 1910. This was followed by the St. George Macedono-Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the Holy Trinity Macedono-Bulgarian Church.
[/quote]

[quote] However the opinion of the President of the Central Committee George Lebamoff is that the MPO was pro-Bulgarian, but now the independent Republic of Macedonia needs help and it is time to forget the past. According to him, only Macedonians who were educated under the old Yugoslav government are anti-Bulgarian oriented.[8] Unexpectedly later in an interview for the Macedonian magazine "Kapital" he sharply criticized the policy of Republic of Macedonia stating, by this way, hiding the truth about the Bulgarian roots and history of the Macedonian people, it has no future.[9]
[/quote]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Canadians[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Patriotic_Organization[/url]

Daskalot 11-20-2009 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=ohridski;27443]Iím not exactly sure if there are any documents on this that exist today.. but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.

Thereís obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.

From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks. Iíve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but Iíve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.

I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.









[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Canadians[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Patriotic_Organization[/url][/QUOTE]

Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
By the looks of it you are.

Daskalot 11-20-2009 03:47 PM

Ok, you just disappeared so let me answer your above statements.

[QUOTE]but there must have been some sort of association or link between Macedonians and Bulgarians.
[/QUOTE]

Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.

[QUOTE]There’s obviously a connection between present day Macedonians and Bulgarians as they share a common culture, history, music, and traditions. They celebrate the same heroes of history and their languages seem to be dialects of the same language.[/QUOTE]

All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.

[QUOTE]From what I know, when our forefathers immigrated to Canada they did so due to the pressure of Serbs and Greeks.[/QUOTE]

Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?

[QUOTE]I’ve been to most Macedonian churches in Toronto, including those that are designated as Macedono-Bulgarian.. but I’ve never seen a Macedono-Serbian or Macedono-Greek church. On the other hand, the churches that are designated as Macedonian only seem to have been built much more recently than the Macedono-Bulgarian ones.[/QUOTE]
I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?

[QUOTE]I think that the differences between Macedonians and Bulgarians are mostly political.[/QUOTE]
So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?

Risto the Great 11-20-2009 05:20 PM

Ohridski, there is no doubt there are similarities. But there is also no doubt the ancestry of these peoples is from different places. There is also no doubt which direction the language came from. I see Bulgarian as a dialect of Macedonian. Do you care to differ?

ohridski 11-20-2009 05:51 PM

[quote] Pardon me Ohridski, but are you an ethnic Bulgarian?
By the looks of it you are.[/quote]

Iím an ethnic Canadian, born in Ohrid.. one of my parents is from Pirin Macedonia. But, Iím definitely not anti-Bulgarian. Iíve been to Bulgaria, and several other Balkan nations. From what Iíve seen, Bulgarians are the ones who mostly refer to Macedonians as Macedonians and not Vardarians or FYROMians etc.


[quote] Of course there is a link between us Macedonians and Bulgarians, a link which we share with other Slavic nations on the Balkan and else where, we also share many cultural traits whom we also share with our other Balkan neighbors. There are many factors, but you seem to be of the assumption that we are the same yet the Serbians are also quite similar to the Bulgarians.[/quote]

A little generic, donít you think? If we use this logic, we would be able to conclude that all ethnicities are linked as we are all humans. What I meant, is that it seems Macedonians and Bulgarians are most similar to each other than to any other group, be they Serbs, Greeks, Romanians, or Albanians. In fact, as far as I know, around 25% of Bulgarians are Macedonian descendents.


[quote] All of us on the Balkans do share many of our neighbors characteristics, this does not however make us into one and the same.
Our language similar, but that is not strange since Old Church Slavonic has it origins in the language spoken around Salonica Macedonia in the 9th century, the Slavic version of the Bible was translated in this language. This language is the one you speak today, or at least a version of it.[/quote]

From what Iíve read, Macedonians and Bulgarians were rather close in the past. I think its recent politics that have been driving a wedge between the two countries. Iíve also read that when Serbia and Greece occupied Macedonia in the early 1900ís, they aimed at claiming it as their own land. Bulgaria, however, seems to have promoted the idea of a Macedonia independent from the Ottomans. I also think that the past is reflected in more recent years, as Bulgaria was the first nation to recognize Macedonia under its constitutional name after it separated from Yugoslavia.


[quote] Serbs and Greeks you say, so why then were Macedonian associations in Bulgaria banned in the early 20th century and Macedonians imprisoned?[/quote]

I donít know much about the Macedonian associations you speak of, but I havenít come across any sources, which state that Bulgarians imprisoned Macedonians solely due their ethnicity.
[quote] I have not been to Toronto so I do not have the knowledge on the above mentioned Churches, but you seem to be fairly knowledgeable about them, would you care to tell us how many churches there are of the Macedono-Bulgarian, Macedonian and Bulgarian kind in Toronto today?[/quote]


As far as I know, there are three Macedono-Bulgarian churches and two Macedonian churches in Toronto. Iíve been to most of these. There is a separate Bulgarian and a separate Macedonian church in the surrounding areas. The interesting thing is that the Macedono-Bulgarian churches are the oldest and were built in the early 1900ís. The separate Bulgarian and Macedonian churches are more recent, they were built within the past 40-50 years or so. This is why I think that the differentiation between Macedonians and Bulgarians is mostly due to recent politics.


[quote] So it is political when you fight for your right for your own country with your own kinsmen inhabiting it, ie "Macedonia for the Macedonians"?[/quote]

Coming to a Macedonian forum, with people who actually speak the language fluently, I thought the responses would be more knowledgeable. The statement above is completely out of context. The Macedonian revolutionaries were fighting against the Ottomans, and later against Serbs and Greeks, they didnít fight Bulgarians. The Bulgarian government supported a free and independent Macedonia.

ĎMacedonia for the Macedoniansí has been used by people who have identified as ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Bulgarians alike.


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