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-   -   Tsar Samoil and the Archbishopric of Ohrid in Macedonia (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=879)

Soldier of Macedon 09-16-2009 03:10 AM

Samuel wasn't an ethnic Bulgar of the Turkic type, no medieval writer ever made such a claim that I am aware of. Too many of Samuel's actions go against the bogus theory that he was an "ethnic Bulgar", whatever that was supposed to mean during that period. This is what is certain:

1) The core territory of his state, that eventually became an empire, was Macedonia proper, including places like Ohrid, Bitola, Prilep, Skopje, etc. Not Nesebar, Pliska, Pleven or other places that formed the first Bulgarian state.

2) His capitals were in Prespa-Ohrid, and he never relocated them east towards the territory of the first Bulgarian state, even though he gradually absorbed that region into his empire.

3) His core religious institutions were in Prespa-Ohrid, again, he never relocated them east towards the territory of the first Bulgarian state, even though he gradually absorbed that region into his empire.


Any sentimentality towards the "ethnic Bulgars" should have been reflected in such actions, it never was.

Risto the Great 09-16-2009 03:31 AM

"Emperor of the Bulgarians" had as much significance as the first "Emperor of Greece". Nothing to do with ethnicity.

Good source TM, thanks.

TrueMacedonian 09-16-2009 04:07 PM

The simple sentence Stephenson wrote; "The practice of claiming the title Emperor of the Bulgarians, therefore, had no ethnic siginificance" is pure gold.

makedonin 11-02-2009 11:32 AM

There is nice book for you to read, called [B]The Legend of Basil the Bulgar-Slayer[/B].

Here is something from the summary:

[QUOTE] In chapter five, Stephenson explores how the contemporary authors referred to Basil. [B]An extensive survey of the Byzantine sources reveal [U]that instead of Voulgaroktonos[/U], Basil was generally referred to [U]as porphyrogennetos or "born in the purple"[/U] to show he was the reigning emperor. [/B]Otherwise he was referred to as "the younger" or "the second". Thus Basil was known to the chroniclers and others as Basil II. This trend continued in the literature well beyond the life of Basil. Stephenson also reveals that this was well known even to biographers in the seventeenth century.

It is not until chapter six that [B]the mystery is revealed in [U]why Basil transforms from porphyrogennetos into the Voulgaroktonos.[/U] As one might suspect [U]it has more to do with political changes, particularly in the ways that Bulgars were viewed in the twelfth century[/U], rather than any particular historical activities.[/B] However, Basil image would decline again in later centuries, particularly with the rise of the Turks and a decline in the threat from the Bulgars.


Source: [url]http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Stephenson_basil.htm[/url]

[/QUOTE]

Very interesting book.

I don't really need to see Samuil as Macedonian King. He may as well have been of mixed stock, Macedonian and Armenian. Some suggest he is was of Vlach descent.
Who cares.

BUT, to view him as Bulgarian is simply wrong.

The Capital of his Empire was shifted to Ohrid, which is not traditional for the Bulgarian Kings. His territories accompanied large Territories of which are known as non Bulgarian lands, such as Macedonia, Thessaly or Serbia and Bosnia.

Cause of the Territories his Empire subdued, his Empire was certainly multy ethnic as was the Byzantine.

That only tells us, that Medieval Kingdoms can't be seen through 19-20 Century nationalistic terms.

makedonin 11-02-2009 12:22 PM

See more here: [url]http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2076&page=2[/url]

TrueMacedonian 11-02-2009 04:39 PM

Here's something else from Stephenson - [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1869[/url]

TrueMacedonian 11-20-2009 12:19 AM

Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before and during 1767?
 
My curiosity peaked here because I see the Bulgars keep stating that this was always a Bulgarian church system in Macedonia and that it was always called as such.

So let me make this question more specific from the title.

Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?

Pelister 11-20-2009 12:36 AM

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;27404]My curiosity peaked here because I see the Bulgars keep stating that this was always a Bulgarian church system in Macedonia and that it was always called as such.

So let me make this question more specific from the title.

Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?[/QUOTE]

I have often wondered about this same question.

Bratot 11-20-2009 06:51 AM

[QUOTE=TrueMacedonian;27404]My curiosity peaked here because I see the Bulgars keep stating that this was always a Bulgarian church system in Macedonia and that it was always called as such.

So let me make this question more specific from the title.

Was the Ohrid Archbishopric called "Bulgarian" before 1767 during the Ottoman Empire only? Is there evidence that it was called as such from people within Macedonia?[/QUOTE]


NO!

If there was, then the Bulgarian church would be based on our Ohrid archbishopric/patriachate.

But since there is no such connection nor it could be possible something like that, the Bulgarian church is formed by the SULTAN with a FERMAN - a turkish decree.

As such, it clearly points out that Bulgarian church is not legal - canonical or w/e you want to name it.

If the Bulgarians got only one evidence they would already claimed such thing, but clearly they CAN NOT!

Prolet 11-20-2009 08:33 AM

Bratot (The Brother)

Is it true that the first Macedonian Church in Canada was actually Bulgarian??

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KLXZHHcQyk]YouTube - The First "Macedonian" Church In Canada[/url]

I know for a fact that before the Ottoman Empire, we lead all the Orthodox Churches from Ohrid not CariGrad.


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