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Po-drum 04-29-2012 03:45 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;126269]
Are there other examples of Slavic loans into Albanian which show the vowel change [B]e > i[/B] (Plesh > Plis)?[/QUOTE]
I can't find many examples with similar development, except maybe
Debar - Dibra.

Soldier of Macedon 05-03-2012 10:27 AM

[QUOTE]Both Gheg and Tosk dialects share the sound change l > r (similar to a western Indo-Iranian development, where laghu becomes raghu, zald become zar, etc), thus the Latin exonym 'Albania' which became prominent during the Norman invasion of the Balkans (via the eastern Adriatic coast) in the 11th century, became Arbania. This rhotic sound change is also evident in the Neapolitan dialect of Italy, spoken in many of the Italian regions conquered by the Normans prior to their invasion of the Balkans.[/QUOTE]
Something further to the above which is quite interesting. This is a sign written in the so-called 'Tsakonian' dialect of Greek. Notice that the word 'g[B]l[/B]ossa' is instead written as 'g[B]r[/B]oussa', which has the same rhotic sound change as Albanian. The same may also apply to the Albanian word for 'white', which is Barde < Balto (Blato after metathesis in Slavic languages).

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/deletep.jpg/][IMG]http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/414/deletep.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Po-drum 05-05-2012 02:28 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;126508] The same may also apply to the Albanian word for 'white', which is Barde < Balto (Blato after metathesis in Slavic languages).[/QUOTE]
How do you mean "blato" is connected with "white"??
Maybe "bledo"? blato>bledo

Soldier of Macedon 05-06-2012 02:24 AM

[QUOTE=Po-drum;126718]How do you mean "blato" is connected with "white"?? Maybe "bledo"? blato>bledo[/QUOTE]
The Macedonian word [I]blato[/I] (< balto) is said to have originally derived from PIE [I]*bʰel[/I], which means 'light' or 'bright'. Of course its meaning today (which is basically 'mud') is different due to a semantic shift which came about when aquatic elements began to be associated with colours that are found in swamps, seas, etc. Albanian also has 'balte' for 'mud', but this is a borrowing from Proto Slavic (pre metathesis) after the semantic shift took place. Here is a comparison with other IE languages:

- *bʰel (Proto Indo-European)
- balta (Illyrian)
- balto/bolto (Proto Slavic)
- baltas (Lithuanian)
- balts (Latvian)
- barde (Albanian)
- bhárga (Sanskrit)

The reason why I have made reference to the rhotic similarity (l > r) between Albanian and Indo-Iranian (which can be seen again with the Sanskrit example above) is because it is not improbable that the latter (via Iranian languages spoken by certain Scythian populations) influenced the former during some earlier stage of development. Furthermore, looking at the [B][I]g[/I][/B] in Sanskrit [I]bhár[B]g[/B]a[/I], it could have subsequently developed into a [B][I]d[/I][/B] in Albanian, hence [I]bar[B]d[/B]e[/I]. Although this is not a specific rule, it is common in Albanian for both voiced/aspirated and palatal/plain velars. See below examples:

*dʰé[B]ǵʰ[/B]ōm (earth) became [B]d[/B]hè in Albanian.
*[B]gʰ[/B]érsdʰo (barley) became [B]d[/B]rithë in Albanian.
*[B]ǵ[/B]ómbʰo (tooth) became [B]d[/B]hëmb in Albanian.
*[B]g[/B]lag (milk) became [B]d[/B]hallë in Albanian.

Po-drum 06-03-2012 05:41 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;126508]Something further to the above which is quite interesting. This is a sign written in the so-called 'Tsakonian' dialect of Greek. Notice that the word 'g[B]l[/B]ossa' is instead written as 'g[B]r[/B]oussa', which has the same rhotic sound change as Albanian. The same may also apply to the Albanian word for 'white', which is Barde < Balto (Blato after metathesis in Slavic languages).

[URL=http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/deletep.jpg/][IMG]http://img827.imageshack.us/img827/414/deletep.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/QUOTE]
Is this rhotic sound change also characteristic for church-slavonic when compared with other languages, or this example is just exception..

[IMG]http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/1259/rily.jpg[/IMG]

[url]http://www.scribd.com/doc/37122719/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B7%D0%B2%D1%83%D1%86%D0%B8-%D0%B2%D0%BE-%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B5%D1%88%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE-%D1%81%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%B8-%D0%B1%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%82%D0%B8-Nasal-vowel-sounds-in-present-day-macedonian-slavic-and-bulgarian-dial[/url]

Nexus 11-12-2012 07:03 AM

Personally i think that albanians have the right to search for their origins, like every nation in this world. They search for their "illyrian" origins, i have no problem with this. But look now, what's happen; they label now everything illyrian as albanian, that's why you can see " Oh no Alexander the Great was albanian, he speaks pure albanian ...". They must understand that the ancient illyrians, if they survived, have not become EXCLUSIVELY albanians, there are others nation who can also pretend an illyrian origin : the bosnians, the croats, the montenegrins, and the ... serbs ! "But it is impossible ! They are slavs !" ... They adopted a new mentality very similar to our friends the Greeks, they pretend to have pure genes, pure blood, pure heritage. Maybe i will say something that can shock, but i think if the Ottomans had not conquered the Balkans, the albanians peoples will not exist today. I know it's a extreme statement, but i think it has some truth ... I am not anti-albanian, and i am interested by their culture, history, they are my "neighbors", and if i am wrong, correct me and i will apologize . But i can't ignore the actual events, and the fact that extremists albanians claim macedonians territories, and we can't hide the fact that their ideas are very popular amongst the majority of the albanian people ...

Nexus 11-13-2012 09:46 PM

I do not believe so much at the "bosnisized" or slavisized muslims albanians, or slavisized albanians who became the today's montenegrins. During the Ottoman time, i think that albanization was more common than slavicisation. The turkish empire has stopped the process of slavicisation and hellenization in the region. It was like a benediction for the albanian people because they has certainly faced extinction at the time. With the Ottoman empire, and their conversion to Islam, they have gained power and strengh. It explains also the expansion of the albanians people, and the beginning of an albanization. If theres are solid facts about a "slavisization" of albanians, then show me. (I am little bit disturbed now, i am 25 percent montenegrin and the idea that i can have albanian origins ... does not please me very much :D).

George S. 11-14-2012 01:27 PM

i beleive in the theory that the albanians in albania have no connection with the illyrians in albania & that they originally came from asia minor where there was an albania there.The albanians emigrated from there in about 7century ad.Long time ago the illyrians seemed to cease to exist.Some think that the serbs & croats are the illyrian people.The albanians have got nothing to be proud of they used to be called the most backward people in europe because they shut themselves off europe for centuries.Their language reminds me of italian,they borrowed a lot of words from them.So they got nothing to be proud about there is nothing pure about them.Today's albanian have more slavic then you could poke a stick at.

Chiche 11-18-2012 02:47 AM

"Today's albanian have more slavic then you could poke a stick at."
Who are the 'Slavs', the term is used by many, they are as much a myth as the Albanians and Greeks.

George S. 11-19-2012 10:08 PM

Slav is a nother label they put on people.Supposedly slavs were from the caspian area towards russia.Different kinds of slavs were around.Originally all people came from mesopatamia.Some were from the sumerians.The point is the greeks,albanians are all slavs & just as much slav influence in macedonia.But the macedonians still exist & they are still macedonian.

Chiche 11-21-2012 12:51 AM

Not without trying, I can not find any Kings or remnants of a "SLAVIC" Nation- I hate this term as much as the fyrom label. These Mythical people came from the Imaginations of those who have no facts to prove an Idea.

Nexus 11-23-2012 06:04 PM

I delete my previous message because i think that it was not very understandable. The translation with google was not very successful, so i will translate myself the parts of the text that cought my attention. Here's the original link in French : [URL="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-illyrien"]http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-illyrien[/URL].

[QUOTE]L'origine illyrienne de l'albanais ont été graduellement abandonnées par les linguistes et notamment les indo-européanistes modernes. Le fait que l'albanais ne peut descendre phylogénétiquement en ligne directe de l'illyrien est admis aujourd'hui par l'ensemble des linguistes aptes à se prononcer sur la question.[/QUOTE]

The illyrian origin of the albanian language was gradually abandonned by the linguists and in particular by the modern specialists of the indo-european (languages and peoples). The fact that albanian language cannot descend phylogenetically directly of the illyrian is accepted by the whole linguists who are able to give an opinion about the question.

[QUOTE]Ce consensus parmi les linguistes n'est contesté aujourd'hui que par des historiens albanais.[/QUOTE]

This consensus among the linguists is contested only by albanian historians (and by other hisorians like the pro-albanian Serge Métais).

[QUOTE]Les arguments favorables à l’hypothèse des historiens sont contredits par la plupart des linguistes :

(1) les lieux albanais ayant conservé leur appellation antique ont évolué selon des lois phonétiques propres aux langues slaves; ce qui conduit à envisager une occupation slave des piémonts et des plaines avant l'arrivée des Albanais;
(2) l'albanais a emprunté tout son vocabulaire maritime au latin et au grec; ce qui pourrait être une indication que les ancêtres des Albanais vivaient à l'intérieur des terres, les régions côtières (thème du Dyrrhacheion) restant gréco-latines ;
(3) les emprunts les plus anciens de l'albanais aux langues romanes proviennent du diasystème roman oriental et non de l'illyro-roman (qui était la langue romane anciennement parlée en Illyrie suite à la disparition de l'illyrien); ce qui fait supposer une implantation albanaise antérieure plus orientale qu'aujourd'hui, tout au moins à la période où les Albanais sont entrés en contact avec des populations parlant une langue romane.[/QUOTE]

The favourable arguments for the hypothesis of the historians are contraticted by the most of linguists :

(1) The albanian places who have preserved their antic naming/designations have evolved according to phonetic laws proper to slavonic languages; it leads to envisage a slavic occupation of the piedmonts and the plains before the arrival of the albanians;
(2) The albanian language have borrowed all his maritime vocabulary to the latin and greek languages; it might be an indication that the ancestors of the albanians lived inside the lands, the coastal regions (Dyrrhacheion Theme) stayed latin-greek (origin of the presence).
(3) The most ancient borrowings of the albanian language to the romance languages came from the oriental/eastern romance languages ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Romance_languages[/url]), and not from the illyrian-romance languages (which was the romance language spoken in Illyria after the disparition of the illyrian in the ancient times); it leads to suppose an anterior implantation/etablishment of the albanians more oriental than today, at least at the time when the albanians entered in contact with the populations who spoke a romance language.

To remind you, the oriental romance languages are also know under the name of Vlach languages ...

[QUOTE]Le tout est indicatif d’une origine géographique albanaise à l’est de l’antique Illyrie, dans le Kosovo et la Serbie actuelle. Au-delà de ce consensus, les perspectives théoriques sont divergentes:

(1) Les correspondances observables parmi les langues de l’ensemble thraco-illyrien s’expliquent plus facilement comme phénomènes d’emprunts et de convergence dans un contexte de contacts linguistiques, à l’image de ce qui se passe dans les Balkans de la modernité, où toutes les langues de la région convergent dans leurs structures vers un modèle typologique prédominant, le "Sprachbund des Balkans". Dans cette perspective, les langues de l'ensemble thraco-illyrien appartiennent à des branches distantes les unes des autres dont la divergence est très antérieure au développement des caractéristiques communes, celle-ci résultant d'un phénomène de convergence linguistique plutôt que d'un héritage ou d'un substrat ancien commun.
(2) Dans la perspective où le rapprochement illyrien-messapien est hypothétique en raison de la rareté des données sur l’illyrien et où les faits du messapien sont mieux connus que ceux de l’illyrien, les faits linguistiques du messapien ne s’expliquent d’aucune façon comme proche de l’albanais.
(3) Le messapien appartenant indubitablement au groupe centum des langues indo-européennes, une parenté avec l’albanais, langue satem, doit être exclue.
(4) Les faits linguistiques de l’albanais s’expliquent mieux dans un ensemble phylogénétique daco-thrace (groupe satem de l’ensemble thraco-illyrien).[/QUOTE]

The whole is indicative of a geographical origin of the albanians in the east of the antic Illyria, in the actual Kosovo and Serbia. Beyond this consensus, the theorical perspectives are divergent :

(1) The observable correspondances amongst the languages of the Thracian-Illyrian family are easily explained by a phenomenom of borrowing and of convergence in the context of linguistic contacts, like what is happening in the modern Balkans, where all the languages of the region converge in their structures on a predominant typological model, the "Sprachbund" of the Balkans. In this perspective, the languages of the Thracian-Illyrian family belonged to distinct branches, wich the divergence is anterior of the development of common characteristics. This divergence was resulted by a phenomenom of linguistic convergences rather than an heritage or a ancient common substrat.
(2) In the perspective of an illyrian-messapian rapprochement is hypothetical because of the rarity of data about the illyrian and where the facts about the messapian are better well-know than the facts of the illyrian, the linguistic facts of messapian cannot be explained in no way at all like close to the albanian language.
(3) The messapian belongs indisputably to the centum group of the indo-european languages. A relationship with the albanian, wich belongs to the satem group, must be excluded.
(4) The linguistic facts of the albanian can be explained better in an daco-thracian phylogenetical ensemble (satem group of the thracian-illyrian).

[QUOTE]En conclusion, s'il y a consensus, c'est pour rejeter tout lien de l’albanais avec le messapien et l'illyrien; un courant majoritaire pour laisser la position de l’albanais dans l’ensemble thraco-illyrien indéterminée, et un courant minoritaire pour rattacher l’albanais au groupe daco-thrace des langues thraco-illyriennes.[/QUOTE]

In conclusion if there is a consensus, it's for rejecting any links of the albanian languages with the messapian and illyrian; a majority trend for leaving the albanian in the thracian-illyrian group in a undetermined place, and a minority trend to attach the albanian in the daco-thracian group of the thracian-illyrian family (like the conclusion of Vladimir Georgiev).

Nexus 12-04-2012 03:44 PM

From a post by Delodephius :

The Position of Albanian
[url]http://www.kroraina.com/balkan/ehamp.html[/url]

The genesis of the Balkan Peoples
[url]http://www.kroraina.com/vg/vg.html[/url]

[QUOTE]
VIII. Albanians and Rumanians

Whether the Albanians are the successors of die Illyrians or the Thracians is a problem that has long been debated. Today the Albanians dwell in a region that was known in antiquity as Illyria. For that reason the Albanians have often been regarded as the heirs of the ancient Illyrians, although there are no other data supporting such a claim. In the same way, the Bulgarians might be considered as Thracians if the other Slavonic peoples and languages were not known.

But many linguists and historians, e.g. H. Hirt, V. Pârvan, Th. Capidan, A. Philippide, N. Jokl, G. Weigand, P. Skok, D. Detschew, H. Baric', I. Siadbei, etc. have put forward very important considerations indicating that the Albanians cannot be autochthonous in the Albania of today, that their original home was the eastern part of Mysia Superior or approximately Dardania and Dacia Mediterranea, i.e. the northern central zone of the Balkan Peninsula, and part of Dacia.

Now, however, when it is clear that Daco-Mysian and Thracian represent two different IE languages, the problem of the origin of the Albanian language and the Albanians themselves appears in quite a new light. The most important facts and considerations for determining the origin and original home of the Albanians are the following.

1. The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shköder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.

2. The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Rumanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.

3. The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

4. Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.

5. The Albanians are not mentioned before the 9th century a.d., although place names and personal names from the whole region of Albania are attested in numerous documents from the 4th century onwards.

6. The old home of the Albanians must have been near to that of the proto-Rumanians. The oldest Latin elements in Albanian come from proto-Rumanian, i.e. eastern Balkan Latin, and not from Dalmatian, western Balkan Latin that was spoken in Illyria. Cf. the phonetic development of the following words:

Vulgar Latin caballum 'horse' Rum. cal, Alb. kal
Vulgar Latin cubitum 'elbow' Rum. cot. Alb. kut
Vulgar Latin lucta 'struggle, fight' Rum. luptǎ, Arum. luftǎ, Alb. luftë
Therefore Albanian did not take shape in Illyria. The agreement in the treatment of Latin words in Rumanian and in Albanian shows that Albanian developed from the 4th till the 6th century in a region where proto-Rumanian was formed.

7. Rumanian possesses about a hundred words which have their correspondences only in Albanian. The form of these Rumanian words is so peculiar (e.g. Rum. mazǎre = Alb. modhullë 'pea(s)') that they cannot be explained as borrowings from Albanian. This is the Dacian substratum in Rumanian, whereas the Albanian correspondences are inherited from Dacian.[/QUOTE]

I read somewhere that Albanians are Mardaites (from Asia Minor) and theses "Mardaites" were settled in the Balkans by the Roman-Byzantines.
Any informations about this theory?

Nexus 12-04-2012 03:51 PM

I have a question: Could the peoples who carrying the name [U]arnautovic[/U], [U]arnautov[/U], [U]arnautovski[/U], [U]arnautovska[/U], [U]arnautoff[/U] have an albanian descent?

And I want to know if the peoples labelled as "Arnaut" during the Ottoman times were exclusively albanians? I read somewhere that it can also refers simply to a muslim, ottoman soldier or not.
Because a lot of persons in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro even in Macedonia bear this surname, and the albanians said that they are in fact slavisised albanians, it catchs my attention.

How the "Arnaut" during Ottoman occupation got this surname? By the turks? In which circumstances?

Thanks.

EDIT: A last question, did surnames with "Arnaut" exist amongst the albanians?

Epirot 12-05-2012 09:57 AM

[QUOTE=Nexus;137481]I have a question: Could the peoples who carrying the name [U]arnautovic[/U], [U]arnautov[/U], [U]arnautovski[/U], [U]arnautovska[/U], [U]arnautoff[/U] have an albanian descent?

And I want to know if the peoples labelled as "Arnaut" during the Ottoman times were exclusively albanians? I read somewhere that it can also refers simply to a muslim, ottoman soldier or not.
Because a lot of persons in Serbia/Croatia/Bosnia/Montenegro even in Macedonia bear this surname, and the albanians said that they are in fact slavisised albanians, it catchs my attention.

How the "Arnaut" during Ottoman occupation got this surname? By the turks? In which circumstances?

Thanks.

EDIT: A last question, did surnames with "Arnaut" exist amongst the albanians?[/QUOTE]

Ottomans got such a name from Greeks who used to call Albanians 'Ar[B]b[/B]anites' or 'Ar[B]v[/B]anites'. Initially, Ottomans adopted it as 'Arnavud', as can be seen in their chronicles. Later, they switched that name by formalizing as 'Arnaut'. This comes probably because they were acquainted by a similar word which existed already in Persian "Arnaut". Its original meaning was 'those who did not turn back'. probably referring to the Albanian soldiers who were hired as mercenaries of Ottomans. With the drift of time, Arnaut was closely associated with stubbornness and bravery. I don't have any clue if such an appellation was given to Slavs too. Judging from its usage, it seem that 'Arnaut' referred exclusively to the Albanians. In the folklore of Montenegrins, Serbs and Macedonians, Albanians are called constantly as 'Arnaut'. I've heard many times some cases when Serbs quarrel with one another. They call their opponent as having 'Arnaut blood'. The same goes even for Turkey...

Nexus 12-05-2012 10:01 AM

Thanks Epirot, it's interesting.

Carlin 12-07-2012 11:33 PM

[QUOTE=Nexus;137480]

I read somewhere that Albanians are Mardaites (from Asia Minor) and theses "Mardaites" were settled in the Balkans by the Roman-Byzantines.
Any informations about this theory?[/QUOTE]

Hi Nexus,

Go to page 30 of this very same thread. You will find more info about Mardaites there (..although I am working on additional sources). Did you know that there were Albanians living in Cyprus during Venetian times? :) Also, and I may have mentioned this already, but -- A. Rambaud identified the Mardaites as the Albanian Mirdites.

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=eDx1dyiEchIC&pg=PA191&dq=Mardaites+Mirdites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=o8PCUKSACaPUygGk9IDQDg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Mardaites%20Mirdites&f=false[/url]

Here is another interesting quote -

[SIZE="3"]"Albanian race designates itself by two general names: the name of Mirdites, derived from Persian [B]Mardaites[/B] (braves), now applies to the noblest part of the population, and seems like the words German, Slav, Frank, having been [B]originally a title of honor[/B]; name Shkipetars (inhabitants of the rocks) designates the people in general."[/SIZE]

Revue des Deux Mondes - 1842 - tome 31. page 358.

Unrelated, but here is something about "Bagenetia".

The sack of Butrint, c. AD 800
Richard Hodges, Solinda Kamani, Matthew Logue & Joanita Vroom
[url]http://antiquity.ac.uk/projgall/hodges/[/url]
[SIZE="3"]
Butrint, ancient Buthrotum, located 3km from the Straits of Corfu on the Vivari Channel at the south end of Lake Butrint in Albania (Figure 1), is a typical illustration of an ancient city that declined in late antiquity before experiencing a Mid Byzantine revival that endured until the later middle ages (Hodges et al. 2004). Occupying a fertile coastal niche extending 10km into a mountainous valley and with access to legendary amounts of fish in Lake Butrint, the seaport of Butrint - on a major artery through the central Mediterranean - was a weathervane of geo-political changes in the region. Recent excavations at Butrint have thrown light on a significant if previously unknown historical episode in its post-Roman history that, in turn, begs questions about the settlement history, ethnicity and geo-politics of this region in the eighth and ninth centuries AD.

[B]Butrint lies in a region known by the thirteenth century as Bagenetia or Vagenetia, a term that can be traced back to the Slavic tribe known as the Baiounetai [/B](Chrysos 1997: 184-5; Soustal in Hodges et al. 2004: 20-22; Curta 2006: 103) and [B]which survived until the sixteenth century. [/B]The so-called [B]Partitio Romaniae[/B], a document of 1204 describing the division of the Byzantine Empire, records the [B]chartularaton de Bagenetia[/B].

Between the seventh and tenth centuries the few sources make it difficult to judge whether Butrint was in Byzantine or Slavic hands. Occasional finds of so-called Komani jewellery from the region point to contacts with [B]post-Roman tribes[/B] from inland Albania (see Bowden 2003; Curta 2006: 103-4). However, a lead seal found in the Lower Danube region, belonging to a certain Theodorus who was the imperial spatharios and archon of Vagenetia, suggests the region and perhaps Butrint's allegiance was to Byzantium (Curta 2006: 103; see also Chrysos 1997: 184-5). In the so-called Notitia of the Iconoclasts, compiled after AD 754, Butrint - Bythipotu - is listed as the fourth and penultimate city of Old Epirus, subject to Nikopolis. In 880-884, St. Elias the Younger and his pupil Daniel were accused of being Hagarenes (foreigners) and spies, and imprisoned at Butrint (polis epineios) by a man presumed to be a Byzantine official. In 904 the relics of St. Elias, who had died in Thessalonika, were brought to Butrint to be taken from there to Calabria. Little more is known about Butrint as a town at this time. Arsenios of Corfu (876-953), who apparently visited Epirus to plead with Slav pirates, recorded that Butrint was rich in fish and oysters, with a fertile hinterland. [B]In sum, between the seventh and ninth centuries Butrint lay in a territory controlled by a local tribe - possibly of Slavic affinity or origin [/B]- that intermittently maintained official connection with Constantinople and adhered to a Byzantine administrative ethos (Soustal in Hodges et al. 2004).[/SIZE]

Carlin 12-08-2012 09:04 AM

Mardaites/Mirdites (Albanians):

1) "Les uns furent [U]établis en Thrace, en Epire[/U] ([B]où les Mirdites sont leurs descendants[/B]) [U]et dans le Péloponèse[/U]; le plus grand nombre fut installé dans le thème cibyrrhéote..."

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=a51nRvG3c-gC&q=Sathas+Mardaites+Mirdites&dq=Sathas+Mardaites+Mirdites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NEfDUPbjGay6yAGY84HIBg&ved=0CEEQ6AEwBQ[/url]

2) Resettlement of Mardaites into Asia Minor and the Balkans (Justinian II's policy).

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=VfYnu5F20coC&pg=PA160&dq=Ostrogorsky+Mardaites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=dkfDUK6yCIWByAGdxYGoAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Ostrogorsky%20Mardaites&f=false[/url]

3) M. Sathas says that they were [U]divided into two bodies[/U], of which [B]one was scattered throughout Hellas, especially Epirus, where to the present day their descendants are called Mirdites[/B], while the other division was ultimately settled in the Cibyraiot theme.

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=K1YZAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA321&dq=Sathas+Mardaites+Mirdites&hl=en&sa=X&ei=NEfDUPbjGay6yAGY84HIBg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Sathas%20Mardaites%20Mirdites&f=false[/url]

4) "...certainly there was a coast-guard of Albanians in Cyprus under Venetian rule.."

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=jYxi-PQiDL8C&pg=PA261&dq=Albanians+Cyprus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=oknDUOu2L4LaygHlrYDAAQ&ved=0CDsQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Albanians%20Cyprus&f=false[/url]

Carlin 12-08-2012 02:00 PM

Although Normans have nothing in common with modern Albanians, you will see in this post how ethnic names, terms, descriptions, identities can evolve, change in meaning, or interchange and attach themselves to new ethnic groups.

1) Evolution Of Norman Identity: 911-1154 - By Nick Webber
[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=ltmP5GFRiv8C&pg=PA87&dq=Albanoi+Normans&hl=en&sa=X&ei=B4nDUKazEaqBygGo_YDADw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Albanoi%20Normans&f=false[/url]

[FONT="Times New Roman"][SIZE="3"]Please go to pages 87 and 88.

You will find the following:

- It was the Normans who first appeared under the heading [I]Albanoi[/I] (foreigners).
- In Byzantine documents, the people to whom [I]Albanoi[/I] referred were the Normans.
- [I]Albanoi[/I] was not purely an ethnic term, but in fact it is a common noun which corresponds to the medieval Latin [I]albanus[/I], meaning "aliens" or "men from a different jurisdiction".
- According to Lucio Melazzo, when the Normans settled in southern Italy they used the name [I]albani[/I] for a certain time to refer to themselves.[/SIZE][/FONT]

2) Anglo-Norman Studies - By Marjorie Chibnall
[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=QjlBTqnrcrIC&pg=PA247&dq=Albani+Normans&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nY7DUJKZGoS0yAGX4IDYBA&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Albani%20Normans&f=false[/url]

[SIZE="3"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Go to Pages 244-248:

- The "Latinoi" of whom Michael Attaleiates speaks are the old inhabitants of Italy whom Scylitzes calls "Italoi", namely the Lombards or Longobards. The Normans, the "Fraggoi" (Franks) of Scylitzes, are named "Albanoi"/"Alvanoi" by Michael Attaleiates. [So - the Lombards, a Germanic people, were being called Latins or Italians, while [B]the Normans were called Franks or Albanians[/B].] This term corresponds to the well-known word of medieval Latin 'albani', meaning "aliens" and denoting those who, as foreigners, were not subjects of the country in which they had settled.

- It is highly probable that the Normans, who began to appear in the south of Italy from 1017 and obtained their first permanent possession in 1030 were considered aliens. From the facts under discussion, however, we can draw inferences of considerable interest. To begin with, the noun Albanoi, being a word of Latin origin, must have arrived in Byzantium from Southern Italy, where it undoubtedly applied to the foreigners from Normandy; otherwise Michael Attaleiates could not have applied it as a correct denomination for the Normans either in the passage mentioned above or in another where, saying that George Maniaces rose against Emperor Constantine IX Monomachos with his Byzantine and Norman soliders, he calls the former Romaioi and the latter Albanoi.

Romaioi (Byzantines) = Romans
Albanoi (Albanians) = Normans

- Albanoi can have come only from a Latin albani stressed on the last syllable. [B]Such a form uttered with a particular foreign accent can have flowed only from the mouths of people who had spoken Old French from birth [/B]and transferred the habit of stressing the last syllable of all words from their native language to any other language they had to speak.[/FONT][/SIZE]

Nexus 12-27-2012 10:35 PM

From a post of TrueMacedonian :

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=15062&postcount=1[/url]

[Quote]THE ALBANIAN RACISM TOWARDS THE NEIGHBOURS IS
BASED ON HISTORICAL FALSIFICATIONS

VD: - You are regarded as a unique, Albanian Mandela, but also as a political prisoner-record holder on the Balkan. For the insufficiently informed, at the beginning, tell us briefly about this.

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In former Yugoslavia, I was sentenced two years strict imprisonment, allegedly for propaganda against the socialism and the “brotherhood and unity”. After I served the punishment to the last day in the jail Idrizovo, wishing to escape to the Soviet Union I got stuck in Albania with which the USSR exactly those days severed its diplomatic relations. After the ten-year internment, I was arrested by the Albanian authorities and sentenced 43 years of a most monstrous imprisonment, again allegedly for antigovernment propaganda, in possession of some revolver without license, preparing to escape and for insulting the investigator. Thus, in total, I am sentenced 45 years, of which 37 for antigovernment propaganda, with which I think that I am the most heavily sentenced political prisoner on the Balkan and maybe I am a unique world record holder. Actually, if it wasn’t for the (political) changes in Albania I would probably have still been in jail today. To this sentence needs to be added the severed marriage in Yugoslavia, in which fortunately I didn’t have any children and also the second marriage, in Albania, in which I had two children. During the whole time of my incarceration, not only that I wasn’t allowed to see my children, but I didn’t even know if they were alive. No one was allowed to visit me, or to give me a piece of bread. Not even the other prisoners. Those who did that were punished and the poet Gani Shkudra, who came to see me, not only that they didn’t allow him to see me, but in front of the jail, on the spot, they arrested him and sentenced him with 10 years imprisonment, allegedly for political propaganda. The only transgression attributed to him in the accusation is recorded as: “he had gone to the jail Burel to see the public enemy Kaplan Resuli and brought him bread”. While I was languishing in the infamous jail Burel, ten times they skinned me alive, literally, wanting from me to abandon my Yugoslavian (Montenegrin) citizenship, the Yugoslavian (Montenegrin) nationality, my ideals, even my children. They were forcing me to declare myself an Albanian, not only as citizen, but also in nationality (ethnicity). Several times, they attempted to liquidate me, even after I was released from jail; three times they have attempted to assassinate me – twice in Tirana and once in Geneva. The Albanians themselves, not only my friends, but also even the others who were antagonistic towards me, while I was in my jail cells, pronounced me an Albanian Mandela. Even my most open adversary, the Albanian writer Ismail Kadare, those days, the beginning of the nineties, in his attempts to befriend the European circles and Amnesty International who were involved in my freeing, did not shirk from naming me a martyr and a hero of Albania.

VD: - Before we turn towards that period and to Your specific relationship with the most famous, but undoubtedly the most controversial person of the Albanian academy, as well, Ismail Kadare, lets return to the most important phases of your creative activities which led to Your wider literary and scientific affirmation?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In Dubrovnik in 1952, I published the poem “Bojana” in which I openly named Yugoslavia and Albania, Golgotha, in which the people struggle and suffer. I was instantly called on the phone by my “countryman” Milovan Gjilas who then threatened me that he will squeeze my head so hard that instead of singing I would begin to wail. And it turned out thus. I hear in Yugoslavia he is regarded as the No.1 dissident. If truly there is no other person, then I know that I was that at least a little bit before him.

VD: - Your first jail sentence, unfortunately, occurred to You in Macedonia, where for some time in that period You worked as an educator?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Yes, I was a tutor in Tetovo when they arrested me. As it can be seen from the charges, in Macedonia I had done nothing wrong. I was accused that, allegedly, I had been involved in an antigovernment propaganda in Montenegro. And because I was and am a Montenegrin citizen, the court proceedings should have been there, in my birth town of Ulcinj. The reason for my prosecution in Tetovo was that there I didn’t have any relatives and UDBa (Yugoslavian state security), which knew that I am absolutely innocent, was afraid that my prosecution among my Ulcinj people could provoke some unwanted problems. For that reason, it ordered my prosecution in Tetovo, behind closed doors. Although I am not from Tetovo, the people of this town, especially my students knew me well, as a professor and as a writer. Along the streets of the town from the court to the jail I was greeted with an open support from many of them and most likely for many of them it will be interesting to know that the key UDBa witness against me was then their collaborator, now allegedly a big fighter for the Albanian cause, Adem Demaçi. The state prosecutor in his concluding talk, accusing me as “agens spiritus” of the Yugoslavian youth against the regime and seeking to be charged as such, stated that I had been and hoped that I will continue to be in future, as well, a “constructive citizen” of Yugoslavia. It is interesting that Fatos Nano (Albanian socialist premier) after my release from jail, here in Geneva described me as a “constructive citizen” of Albania, asking me to return there, in Tirana.

VD: - Your first more significant life’s disappointment, You said, implanted in You the idea to leave for the Soviet Union, but fate wanted again to play with you in a brutal fashion and “retain” You many years in the Albanian jail Burel.

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - True, that was some time after my completion of the jail sentence in Idrizovo. Burel was not a jail, but a place of horror. While in Idrizovo they would say “You are not here for us to fatten you up, but to count your bones” in Burel it was: “This place is called Burel, where one can get in, but can not get out”.

VD: - The numerous works which You wrote here most likely helped You to strengthen your spirit and, eventually, to survive. Actually, exactly here is created your most famous work, the novel “Treason”?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - From approximately 200,000 pages written during those thirty years, half of them I succeeded in transferring out of jail and to have them here, in Geneva. The authorities took the other part from me and I have no idea what has happened with them. The novel “Treason”, otherwise, the Albanians themselves proclaimed it as a masterpiece of the Albanian literature. One of the most eminent Albanian critics, Prof. Tair Zavallani, even described it as the only worthy work published in Albania after World War II. That type of reception for the novel in Albania and amongst the Albanian Diaspora perturbed Enver Hoxha who was attempting to establish his likeminded relative Ismail Kadare as the greatest Albanian literary. That is why all of a sudden they “discovered” that I had not written the novel, attempting even to physically eliminate me, but it had been the work of Adem Demaçi (Demachi), for whom they were hoping that, in the meantime, he would perish in the Yugoslavian jails. Since Demaçi got out of jail alive and I also survived, now, via the printed media, they have widened a campaign against me, unseen in the history of mankind, which, imagine, the novel had been written for me by UDBa, in order to establish myself with it in Albania and thus usurp the government from Enver.

V.D. - Thus far twice, in similar context, You mentioned Kadare and I would like to remind You of 1991 when Amnesty International, as well, engages in the requests for Your release from jail and, absurdly, the one who attempted to block it was none other, but Kadare. How, actually, could that be explained?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Kadare is catapulted in the West by Ramiz Alia and the widow of Enver Hoxha, with a well planned mission. At that time, it was only one of his missions – to diminish my credibility amongst the Albanian public and the Diaspora, fearing that I may unmask them, spoiling their future plans. For that reason, not only in private, as was the case with Adem Demaçi, but also publicly, at meetings and via the printed media he barked against me and would accuse me, as they were instructing him from Tirana. Kadare and Demaçi are the main conspirators in of the most monstrous demonstrations in the history of mankind, when they stirred the Albanian professors and students at Prishtina university to demonstrate in February 1991 against my release from jail.

VD: - On the subject “Kadare”, You have up till now written much, to which special attention in the Albanian public, but also in the European community have attracted Your books “The true face of Ismail Kadare” and “The lies do not alter the truth”. When, actually, began Your rivalry and what is, as You have mentioned, his well planned mission?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - In these books, actually, with documents and with facts, but also with his own self confessions, I have proven that he is catapulted in the West as an agent of Sigurimi (Albanian state security), because he was that from always. As a principal ideologue of Enver, with secret interpretations on our works he was “passing judgment” for our maltreatments, internments and arrests. Actually, this was publicly stated, on Albanian Radio-Television in 1996 by the former head of Sigurimi, Zylfiar Ramizi, verifying that Kadare was in their service under the pseudonym General. He was a provocateur trained by Sigurimi to accuse anyone who, according to him, stood in his way, as he did that with me. And why? Because academic professor Dimitar Suterilli, in his principal paper which he read out at the second Congress of Albanian Writers, placed my name and novel before his. At one plenum of the Union in 1966, I openly criticised him, which enraged him, as he was not used to being criticised. Much later, after my release from jail, a major from Sigurimi involved in my arrest openly declared that, although totally innocent, they had arrested me because they had received a secret 12-page long accusation against me and my activities, exactly from Kadare. In the meantime, he totally put his pen and talent in the service of his benefactor Enver whose political speeches he was transforming into poems and novels. I don’t know if you are aware of the fact that Kadare published a complimentary poem lauding Enver’s “patriotic” dog, which somewhere at the border catches and pulls apart some unfortunate Albanian, only because the poor soul attempted to escape from Enver’s paradise. These are only a few pieces of evidence about the moral profile of the “great” literary and “certain” Nobel prize winner Ismail Kadare, whose main preoccupation today is to poison and deceive the West with the Albanian historical falsifications about the alleged famous Illyrian - Albanian past and culture, which, what absurdity, had suffered multi-centuries harm from the activities of its surrounding barbaric “slavic” peoples.

VD: - This is, I think, an opportune moment to begin our discussion for Your third, certainly an important segment, as well, of Your writings – the scientific-research work. You have published numerous works from the sphere of the Albanian historiography and linguistics, which brought You significant prestige, scientific titles and also an honorary membership in the Albanian Science Academy. When did actually begin Your scientific interest for the Albanology?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Already in 1995 at the University of Skopje, it became clear to me that there will not be peace on the Balkan until the Albanian question is clarified. For that reason I switched from the law faculty to the albanological studies and here, contrary to what was being said and written not only by the Albanian, but also by our, Yugoslavian scholars, contrary to what is being taught not only in the Albanian language schools (in Albania, as well as in Macedonia), but also in the schools of “south-slavic” languages, I discovered that not only the Albanians are not autochthonous people, but they are also not related in any way to the Pelasgians or the Illyrians. Understandably, not one of the professors in Alban ology has said this to me. They continued with the tale that allegedly Albanians are autochthonous Pelasgoillyrian descendants. I discovered that by chance, studying the Albanian language, which, all agree, is of the type SATEM. According to that global division of languages, researching the Illyrian language I discovered that it is of the type KENTUM. The most elementary logic was saying to me that one SATEM language can not be a direct descendant, not even a kind of derivative of some KENTUM language, without a change of its substrate. Since the Albanian language does not have any changes in its substrate, that means that the Albanians can’t be, under any circumstance, genealogical descendants of the Illyrians. Later I discovered this, as well, in the works of the world renown professors and scholars Paul, Hirt, Vaigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many others, who with numerous scholarly arguments, linguistic and historical, have proven that the Albanians not only do not have anything in common with the Illyrians, not only that they are not autochthonous at any place in the Balkan, but they are not even autochthonous in the territories of modern day Albania. Vaigand for example has formulated 12 arguments. To all of those I’ve added another five. Unfortunately, these scientists are not being mentioned in (the study) Albanology, nor in Albania, nor are they mentioned in Yugoslavia, or in Macedonia, because the Albanian professors consciously hide the truth about the origins of the Albanians and, instead of it (the truth), to their pupils and students they serve up the lies about their autochthony and Illyrian origin. Via those lies, they poison the whole nation. This is not done accidentally, but with the aim to incite the Albanians against the neighbouring nations, thus, hooking them on the “fishing line” of some invented, wide ethnic territories, to use them as cannon fodder for the interests of some criminalised leaders and the international Capital.
The primary motive that inspired me to oppose the Albanian pseudo science about their Illyrian origin was the truth, the love for the truth, my special inclination towards it, but second and equally as important motive was the fact that, watching the Albanians being breast-fed with chauvinism and racism, are being encouraged to fight their neighbouring peoples (nations), I was hoping that if the truth is explained to them, they will move away from the tales, legends and myths about their autochthony and illyromania, thus ceasing with their inexcusable and baseless hatred towards their neighbours.

VD: - How did the Albanian public receive Your albanological research and discoveries?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Once even Enver Hoxha was forced to admit that the Albanian science lacks scientific objectivity. The Albanian poet Mimoza Erebara in the Science Academy asked them directly what was the situation with my scientific discoveries. They had told her: “We know that very well even before Kaplan, but now is not the time for all of that to be told” Since in the publication “YLBERI” (comes out since 1993, in Geneva) and especially through my albanological collection THE ILLYRIANS AND THE ALBANIANS I demonstrated in written form my points of view, the Albanian academic Vincent Golleti, in the printed media stated: “The stances of Kaplan Burovich about the albanological problems, especially on the problem of the origin of the Albanians, need to be greeted most warmly, while the studies which he publishes in relation with those problems should be propagated throughout the whole of the scholarly world”. After him followed the Albanian scholar Dr. Adrian Qosi who in the middle of Tirana openly opposed the hypothesis about the Illyrian origin of the Albanians. With me agreed, via the printed media, several other younger scholars of whom I would especially mention Fatos Lubonja, Prof. Adrian Vebiu and others. I can say that today appeared a group of new Albanian scholars who do not agree with the false myths and courageously accept the scientific truth. I am proud that I lead this group and that they took up from me the necessary scholarly courage. Because, believe me, that is not easy at all, as the extreme Albanian nationalists, chauvinists and racists led by Ismail Kadare, through the most severe forms of chicanery and satanising are attempting to silence us at any cost. The mentioned Dr Adrian Qosi when he stated that the hypothesis for the Illyrian origin of the Albanians is unfounded, added: “But it is better not to talk about that because they will declare us anti Albanians”. And they did.

VD: - Since when actually dates the oldest evidence for the existence of the Albanians and the Albanian language?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The oldest evidenced text in an Albanian language is “Formula ë paleximit” (Formula for communion), translated from Latin in 8-11-1462 by the Montenegrin Pavle Angelic, whom the Albanians have albanised with the name Pal Engjylli. The first book in Albanian is “Meshari” (The Book of Thoughts), a manual for religious sermons, dates from 1555 and is written by the Croatian Ivan Buzuk and published in Montenegro. And, understandably, they albanise him with the name Gjon Buzuku. For your information, the first primer in Albanian, after the proclamation of the Albanian independence is a work of “Slavs” and Vlachs. Dositej Obradovich is the first in history who opens a school in Albanian language, while it was exactly Serbia, which was the first state to recognise independent Albania. The Macedonians have a significant input in the development of the Albanian culture. For example, one of the oldest publishers in Albania is the Macedonian Petar Budi (1566-1622) who has published three books in Albanian, and also a Macedonian is Jovan Kukuzel, whom the Albanians have claimed as their own and have albanised with the name Jan Kukuzeli, although it is known that when he was born in Drach, XI century, here there still is not even one Albanian. Let me remind you also of Grigor Prlichev (1830-1893) who for some time is a teacher in Tirana and published the wonderful poem “Skenderbeg”. Undeniable is the fact that always at the forefront of all of their positive processes the Albanians had namely non-Albanians. Lets mention, as well, at this opportune time only Georgi Kastriot – Skenderbeg, of an undeniable “slavic” ancestry, Naim Frasheri (a Vlach, an Albanian national poet) or Fan Noli (a Greek, whose real name is Theophanous Mavromatis), Petar Bogdan, a Serb, or Ismail Kemali, a Turk who was proclaiming the Albanian independence in 1912. As you can see, the foundations of the Albanian culture and statehood are laid by non Albanians, from which a large number are “Slavs”, but that does not stand in the way of the Albanian nationalists, or “Marxists Leninists”, all the same, to thump their chests and declare that they have achieved everything by themselves and that the other people (nations), especially the “Slavs” have only been their enemies.

VD: - Undeniable is the fact that in Albania the toponyms are, say, without exception “slavic”. To what is that owed?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - On the territory of today’s Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, from whom I have already mentioned some, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium (Drach, Durrës). The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century. In the meantime, understandably, the Slavs have already named all mountains, valleys, rivers, towns and villages, and built some new ones, giving them their own names. When the Albanians arrive on the Balkan and today’s Albania, there is nothing else they can do except to take those toponyms. A large part of Albania is flooded with Serbian and Macedonian toponyms. Just as an example, I wish to mention the towns of Pogradec, Korça (Korcha), Çorovoda (Chorovoda), Berat, Bozigrad, Leskovik, Voskopoja, Kuzova, Kelcira, Bels and others.

VD: - In the Macedonian community, little is known that more than 90 percent of the lexical fund of the Albanian language are words taken up from other languages. You especially have analysed the subject of the “slavisms” in the Albanian language. It would be interesting some more to be said about this.

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - For the first time I graduated in Skopje, exactly with the theme “Slavisms in the Albanian language”. The second diploma, as well, at the university of Tirana, I defended with a linguistic theme. Especially in “The Dictionary of the Albanian Language in Ulcinj” I have elaborated the etymology of all words. Actually, it can be supposed that if the Turks did not come to the Balkans, the Albanian language in not more than 100-200 years would have been completely “slavicised”. The Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian languages have penetrated so much into the Albanian language that they have flooded not only the lexicon, but they have displaced its phonetics, morphology and syntax. Besides the significant cultural prestige of these languages compared to the Albanian, this is also due to the significant albanisation of not a small number of Serbs, Macedonians and Montenegrins, especially the ones who were previously islamised. As it is known, the Albanians have a strongly developed power of assimilation. That a good part of them by origin is Serbs, Macedonians or Montenegrins, is witnessed by their patrons, surnames, but many of them even today speak their “slavic” language. In Albania, there are whole regions along the border, especially towards Macedonia, settled with a compact “slavic” population, which is even more numerous, lets say, than the Albanians in Macedonia.

VD: - Lets talk a little also about the numerous ethnonyms which from the Albanian side, often baselessly, are forced as synonyms. How come so many ethnic names for the Albanians?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - That, as well, witnesses the ethno genesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern Albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they haven’t any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi (an) s, they are a Celtic tribe, which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Today’s Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done today’s Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or today’s French, from the old Germanic Franks, deforming the old Celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the “Slavs” are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name, which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the Turkish Empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as Muslims they serve under the Turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the Albanian appellative Shqiptar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in Turkish is “eagle”, while in Albanian it is “shquipe”. Thus, the Albanians of Muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the Muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not Albanian at all, but pan Islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks.

VD: - Here as well, is the known division Ghegs-Toscs from which originates the known language question which, it seems, still has not been overcome by the Albanians.

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The language question in Albania is not settled even today. Although formally (and by force) Enver Hoxha established as a common, official language the Tosc dialect (until then it was the Gheg dialect), the Ghegs have not given up. They still continue to speak and write in their dialect, although they are persecuted and maltreated because of it. When in 1965 in Albania I published the novel “Treason” in the Gheg dialect the Albanians of northern Albania openly requested the language of this book to be declared as the literary and official language of Albania. That too was one of the reasons for my satanisation, which still continues. You should know that the difference between the Tosc and the Gheg dialects is much bigger than the differences between some “slavic” languages, for example the Macedonian and the Serbian. >From another side, more Albanians, about two thirds, speak in Gheg, which is lexically richer, purer and also has much greater expressional opportunities. With the enforcement of the Tosc dialect, which was of a pure political nature (motive), a crime has been perpetrated against the Albanians and their culture.

VD: - One of the fallacies (delusions), unfortunately, it seems somehow silently accepted even outside of Albania is the so called monolithic nature of the Albanian population in the Republic of Albania in which allegedly live 97-98% ethnic Albanians, for which You have already said something previously. What is, according to You, the reality in that respect in Albania?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - When Albania is proclaimed and recognised as an independent nation (1912-1913) its population numbered 700,000 of which hardly 50% were Albanians, while the other half was made up of Vlachs (around 20%), “Slavs” (Macedonians, Serbs, Montenegrins, around 15%),Greeks (around5%) and others (Turks, Roma, Cherkesians, Italians, Jews and others, around 10%). With the passing of time, mostly by force, with denial of all national rights, including the right to speak in their own languages at home, or to carry their own national family names, they are to a certain extent assimilated. But, even besides the such forced albanisation, in Albania even today over 30% of the population speaks a non Albanian language and retains its non Albanian national identity, although they are registered as Albanians, as they are not permitted to declare differently. The non Albanian origins of the population of Albania is also evident from their surnames Bello, Blushi, Bogdani, Buda, Budi, Dida, Dobraci, Dragovoja, Dragusha, Haveri(ch), Kapisuzi(ch), Mexi, Millani, Milloshi, Mojsiu, Muzaka, Najdeni, Peku, Prela, Ruka, Sillil, Shkura, Shundi, Ziu and many others.

VD: - In Your research, You have also paid special attention to the ethnic expansion of the Albanians in the past 2-3 centuries towards its neighbouring (Serbian, Macedonian, Greek and others) regions, for which now, the last several decades, to begin to proclaim exactly them as their “ethnic territories” in which they allegedly lived from eternity?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - This truly is absurd and, in any case, it is good that there remain numerous proofs for their undeniable expansion, which I have integrally collected and published in my study “The origins of the Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia, Montenegro and Greece”. One needs to be objective and tell the truth, not because of the truth itself, but because it will contribute toward overcoming of the many problems on the Balkan. That the Albanians only in the past couple of centuries have expanded admitted publicly, via the printed media, the most eminent contemporary Albanian scientist, academic professor Elrem Cabej (Tsabej), who, forced by the numerous arguments, was unable, but to conclude that today’s territories on which the Albanians live are not “a zone of RESTRICTION”, but “a zone of EXPANSION”. And not only he! That also is verified in the “HISTORIA Ë SHQIPERISË” itself, compiled by the Albanian scientists themselves.

VD: - Recently from Tirana were launched some “evidences” about an existence of 14 million Albanians. Amongst the numerous “Albanians” who had indebted the world civilisation was included, as well, Alexander of Macedonia!

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I’ve read that, as well. The Albanian academic, Prof. Dr Skender Rizaj once even in his “scientific” works stated that, also all Serbs, Montenegrins, Macedonians, Bosnians and Herzegovians are, in reality, “slavicised” Albanians. By that method, we should “admit” that they are not only 14, but also possibly even 140 millions. I have already published a study about the “scientific” work “The Illyrians spoke Albanian – The Albanians speak Illyrian” published by Preloc Margiljaj. I would like to present for this suitable moment only a few short quotes which can also be found in other Albanian historical-linguistic “experts”: “The Albanians are one of the oldest nations (peoples) in Europe” (page 438) “it is clear that Crete is the first fireplace of culture and civilisation in the Aegean region and in Europe. Crete from the forgotten times of the past was settled with the Pelasgian, rather the Illyrian or Albanian people, thus in Crete ruled the Albanian language, which in other words, is the starting point and the first source of the European culture and civilisation”. (page296). Starting from this, this Albanian “scientist” wants the Albanian language to be taught in all schools around the world as a compulsory language because, according to him, without knowing that language it would not be possible to comprehend the world culture(!?). In respect of Alexander of Macedonia, even Enver Hoxha has written that he is an Albanian, expressing that also in one discussion with the Indian ambassador in Tirana, as if personally he, Enver, had sent him to India, even as an ambassador to establish friendly relations between these two countries and peoples. These undoubtedly racist yearnings of the Albanians are certainly the result of their economic and cultural poverty, of their backwardness and late development in comparison with the other nations, amongst which are those of its neighbours, I would say of their frustration because of all of that.

VD: - Do You believe, regardless, in the possibility that the young, unburdened scientists and politicians in Albania will accept the reality and they, abandoning the greater Albanian dreams, to give their own contribution towards the development in real good-neighbourly relations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - I do believe! I have already cited several names of such young scientists. I can also give you names of young politicians unburdened of the greater Albanian yearnings. But they still don’t have the power for that, except their pens and good intentions, with which they can’t act freely because the Albanian print media is strictly censured by the greater Albanians, and the streets of the cities, unfortunately, are still patrolled by gangsters who, in the service of the social-fascist band, are ready to hit anyone with a brick on the head or with a bullet in the forehead!

VD: - For ten years, as a political emigrant, You have been living in Geneva, Switzerland. Do you have an impression that the so-called democratic Europe and the West, generally, understand our Balkan situations?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - Democratic Europe, I’m afraid, at least in respect of us, does not exist at all. The antidemocratic one, on the other hand, hand never understood them, nor wants to understand our Balkan difficulties. Europe was and still is in the service of The Capital. Its “democracy” is only an _expression of that Capital. It uses our Balkan peoples and situations for penetration (expansion) and for ruling the world, for its own battle against the true, real democracy and its carriers.

VD: - Concordant with Your rich life experience, after all that in the past period happened on the Balkan, and which, sadly, culminated with several bloody wars, are You of the opinion that all of that, simply, had to happen?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - No! Absolutely not! All of that could and can, even needs to be solved without blood. Let the Albanians prove that even Moscow is theirs, thus give them even it. But until they prove that, they should not be given even one stone from our fatherlands, not only to prevent them from desecrating it, but also in order to prevent them from smashing their own heads with it.

VD: - To conclude, I believe it would be interesting to hear Your prediction how the things could be developing in the near future?

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich: - The Americans have reached their aim – on the Balkan, they have installed their military bases. Let us hope that they will not support the terrorism and to use the Albanians as cannon fodder. And the Albanians, certainly, in the meantime will wake up and will not allow either the Americans or whoever else to use them as such. For that, understandably, with self criticism, all of us need to assist them. I hope that for this will also contribute this interview, for which I most sincerely thank you, not as a foreigner, but as your brother, because I have always thought of Skopje as my second birth town and Macedonia as my second, true fatherland. I use this opportunity to send my greetings to my school friends from the Skopje gymnasium “J. B. Tito”, also the personnel from the Macedonian embassies in Geneva and Tirana with whom I have met many times and keep wonderful memories from the discussions with them, especially with the recent (former) ambassador in Albania, Risto Nikovski. Understandably, special greetings to my friends and “comrades” from KPD “Idrizovo”.[/Quote]

momce 12-27-2012 10:46 PM

Interesting. I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2013 09:44 PM

[QUOTE=momce;138056]I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?[/QUOTE]
Both are closer to Balto-Slavic than they are to Albanian.

George S. 01-23-2013 12:22 AM

One thing's clear the albanian claims that they are related to the illyrians doesn't carry much weight as on one of the threads it was pointed out the serbs or croats might be the remnants of the illyrians.As for their language it resembles something like italian than illyrian.The people inhabiting albania today probably migrated in the 6 or 7th century during the so called slavic invasions.So it's not odd to say there is slavic in them albanians.

Epirot 01-28-2013 09:55 AM

One thing that has struck me so far is the evolution of opinion about the ancestry of the Albanians. If they are about to create a kind of federation between Greece and Albania, then Albanians are nothing else but seeds of Pelasgians. According to this view, both Greeks and Albanians trace their origin back to a common predecessor. When it became profusely clear that Albanians were hesitant to accept any kind of federation, Greek historians suddenly switched their opinions. Now Albanians had nothing Hellenic, furthermore they might have come from elsewhere. Knowing that no evidence was found to back up such claims, they probably opt for the Dacian ancestry of the Albanians. Digging in dumpsters of Romanian and Serbian school, Dacian outlandish hypothesis fits perfectly to their imagination that Albanians are nothing else but migrants in the Hellenic soil. It would be to time consuming to bother with such groundless hypothesis. What matters the most is that no scholar has yet endorsed that hypothesis, which lacks of any historical support.

[QUOTE]A further factor is that [COLOR="Red"][B]there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and t[U]here is not any vestige of their presence in that land[/U])[/B][/COLOR], while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.

[url]http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Here I shall display the opinion of 'Greeks' whether Albanians were Dacians :)

One of the most striking evidences is to be found at the Mazaris's book "The Journey to Hades" (1414/15), where he stated: "Ιλλύριοι" - ως 'Αλβανοί':

[QUOTE]«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι,[COLOR="Red"][B] Ιλλυριοί,[/B][/COLOR] Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/11m3x8w.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/1h6kqv.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/a5dte1.png[/IMG]

Ephraemius (Byzantine chronicler - 14th cent.)

[QUOTE]χρατιΐ Θισσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιάάμνω
[COLOR="Blue"][B]Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς[/B][/COLOR](1)
ευρύ δέ οι τι &ησι μάλλον το χλέος
η κατά Πέτρου Λατίνου λαμπρά νίχη
γαμβρός γαρ ούτος είς άδελψην τνγχάνων
Έρρή Βαλδουίνου τι των βασιλέων
προς πάπα χρισ&εϊς άς χρατάρχψι Λατίνων
Έρρή θανόντος είς Βνζαντος εστάλη
εις Έπιδαμνίων δ χατάρας πόλιν
δι Αλβανών έσπευδε την Κωνσταντίνου(2)
μετά στρατιάς χαταλαβεϊν ευόπλου
άλλα προφθ άσας Θεόδωρος γεννάδας
τοϋτον τροπονται χαί νιχα κατά κράτος[/QUOTE]

Has any Greek ever tried to comprehend why no account exist referring to the Albanians as Dacians? I am also thrilled to know why the Medieval Albanians had no memory of their supposed Dacian origin? How come they had no memory of Duras, Decebalus and Burebista? Instead they cherished a lot of traditions linking themselves with Pyrrhus...:

[QUOTE]Οι Αλβανοί σε μεγάλο βαθμό κατάγονται από τους αρχαίους Ηπειρώτες. Αξιοσημείωτο είναι ότι στις παραδόσεις των Αλβανών δεν υπάρχουν αναφορές για καταγωγή τους από τους Ιλλυριούς αλλά από τους Ηπειρώτες. Χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η απάντηση του Αλβανού ήρωα Σκεντέρμπεη σε έναν πρίγκιπα του Τάραντα που ειρωνευόταν τους Αλβανούς και δεν τους είχε ικανούς να αντισταθούν στους Τούρκους: ‘’Δεν τους ξέρεις καλά τους Αρβανίτες μου…[COLOR="Red"][B]Οι πρόγονοί μας ήταν Ηπειρώτες, από τους οποίους βγήκε εκείνος ο Πύρρος[/B][/COLOR], στου οποίου την ορμή μόλις που μπόρεσαν να αντισταθούν οι Ρωμαίοι.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B]Kōnstantinos Paparrēgopoulos[/B]: Άλλ' οί Αλβανοί δεν δύνανται ακριβώς ειπείν νά λογισΟώσιν ώς φυλη άλλοτρία της ελληνικής. Οί Αλβανοί εΐναι απόγονοι τών αρχαίων Ιλλυριών, οΐ- τινες πολλην έχοντες ανέκαθεν την οικειότητα προς τούς κατοίκους τών μεσημβρινωτέρων χωρών (1877:386)[/QUOTE]

Paparrēgopoulos points that Albanians are not alien to the Greeks. According to him, Albanians are the descendants of ancient Illyrians.

[QUOTE][B]Kōstas Eleutheroudakē[/B]: Αλβανοί, απόγονοι των αρχαίων Ιλλυριών (197?: 75)[/QUOTE]

If a century ago you unhesitatingly accepted our being as Epirotes, why is so fucking difficult to accept it right now?

[QUOTE][B]Pandōra: syngramma periodikon, Volume 10[/B]: Δέν είναι λοιπόν παράδοξον, δτι ο'ι Αλβανοί έπωνομάσθησαν -κιπετάροι από τοϋ Σκίπιε ώς δπαδοί η1 απόγονοι τοΰ Πύρρου τοΰ έπονομασθέντος Αετοΰ = Σκίπιε (1860: 518)[/QUOTE]

To our southern neighbours, history goes hand-in-hand with the geopolitics. While Athens still claims parts of southern Albania, Greek historians are pretty cautious to restrict Hellenism within Tosks but not to the Ghegs:

[QUOTE][B]Dēmētrios Euangelidēs[/B]: "Ισως μάλιστα οί Τόσκηδες να είναι οί αρχαίοι Ηπειρώτες κάτοικοι πού ανακατεύτηκαν με τούς Ιλλυριούς στα βόρεια αύτα σύνορα της Ηπείρου. (1962:26) [/QUOTE]

Any idea why?

Nexus 01-28-2013 07:27 PM

това страница е за албанската вистина или за македонската вистина ,што сака да ни каже тој момче, дека шиптарите пелазги и илириски ли са?

Soldier of Macedon 01-29-2013 04:25 AM

[QUOTE="Nexus"]......што сака да ни каже тој момче, дека шиптарите пелазги и илириски ли са?[/QUOTE]
Do you disagree? If so, you should explain why. Better yet, first do some research on the topic to better understand the different points of view. You can start here:

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012[/url]
[QUOTE="Epirus"]* Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7213[/url]

Does the article actually refer to Kolokotronis as an Albanian?
[QUOTE]A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia.......[/QUOTE]
There is no historical record which mentions the arrival of Roma in the Balkans, but linguistics indicates that they came from India. The theory that Proto-Albanians, or at least a tribe of people that contributed to Albanian ethnogenesis, once lived among the ancestors of modern Romanians, is also based on linguistics.
[QUOTE].......while [B]there are many documents proving that the Vlach people[/B] lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia![/QUOTE]
There are no 'documents' prior to the Roman occupation of Dacia which make reference to "Vlach people" by the southern Adriatic coast.
[QUOTE]Ephraemius (Byzantine chronicler - 14th cent.)

Quote:
χρατιΐ Θισσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιάάμνω
Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς(1)
ευρύ δέ οι τι &ησι μάλλον το χλέος
η κατά Πέτρου Λατίνου λαμπρά νίχη[/QUOTE]
Can you please provide a link and translation to this text?

Epirot 01-29-2013 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]Does the article actually refer to Kolokotronis as an Albanian? [/QUOTE]

Yes it does! While Androutsopoulos was speaking in the context of αρβανίτικη θυσία (Albanian sacrifices), Kolokotronis and the rest are being mention.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]Can you please provide a link and translation to this text?[/QUOTE]

The above verses were dedicated to the Emperor of Nicea, Theodor II Laskaris who attempted to extend his authority over the territories of Western Balkans. A rough translation of the cited passage would be:

[QUOTE]He became at the same time the lord of Thessaly, Achaia,
Macedonia and parts of Thrace. He received Dalmatia along with the Epidamus,
an Illyrian land, mountainous Albanians.
But he gain more pride after his victory against Petro the latin.

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vhUTAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9+%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD+%CF%84%CE%B9+%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD+%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89+%CE%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1+%CE%B3%CE%B7%CE%BD,+%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82+%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%86%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%82&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ViwIUf-pMMiRswbLgIGQBQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%20%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD%20%CF%84%CE%B9%20%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%20%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89%20%CE%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1%20%CE%B3%CE%B7%CE%BD%2C%20%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82%20%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%86%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%82&f=false[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]
The theory that Proto-Albanians, or at least a tribe of people that contributed to Albanian ethnogenesis, once lived among the ancestors of modern Romanians, is also based on linguistics. [/QUOTE]

Albanians has heaps of Dacian elements indeed. As far as ancient sources are concerned, no account has evidenced any Dacian shift towards modern Albania. Knowing that Dacians were utterly Romanized, there is no basis to ascribe them as ancestors of Albanians. A certain section of Dacians did not succumb to the Romanization, but they were to be found in the eastern parts of Dacia. Known as Free Dacians, they used to inhabit the regions of modern Moldavia. Its less convincing that they fled in south to became subjects of Roman empire. Had the proto-Albanians lived in Dacia, they would left their vestiges behind them. I've sought in vain to trace any cultural vestige which would indicate the presence of Albanians there but could not find any. To sum it up, the linguistic commonalities found in both Albanian and Romanian might be attributed to the fact they lived in close neighborhood. An additional factor that should not be neglected is also the ethnogenesis of Romanians. Nearly all historians believe that proto-Romanians used to live in south of Danube. Although no one has been able to exactly pinpoint the cradle of Romanians, the German scholar Schramm points that they lived in a territory, most probably in the higher zones of the Pirin, Rila, and Rhodope Mountains, close to the regions inhabited by Albanians (Schramm 1997, pp. 311., 323.)

[QUOTE]Therefore, based on the facts that we can take for certain at this time, [COLOR="Blue"][B]it can be stated that not a single geographical name (the name of a river, a mountain, or a place) exist in Romania which could prove the plausibility of the survival of a language island, even solely in a smaller territory[/B][/COLOR], from the Antiquity to the Middle Ages. Whereas whole Romania is entwined with conclusive geographical names which excludes any form of continuity there.
Schramm, Gottfried (1997), p. 105.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]All a scholar of the Middle Ages can declare relatively safely after having examined the circumstances [COLOR="blue"][B]at the end of the 9th century is that there is no trace of (...) Romanians in Transylvania in this period.[/B][/COLOR]
—Kristó, Gyula (2003)[/QUOTE]

Being so, proto-Romanians might have lived somewhere in nearby of Albanians, which is why their vocabulary is imbued with Albanian words. It seems quite likely that Albanians were to be found in the province of Dardania, where they kept intact their identity without being fully Romanized. In favor of that speaks also the very fact that Dardanians were Illyrian on the ground that most of their names pertain to the Illyrian onomasticon (Katicic as cited by Wilkes). History afford no hint that Dardanians might have been Dacians or Mysians. Moreover, most of sources are able to sharply distinguish them. Anxious to dislocate Albanians in a place far away from Greece, Greek net-warriors pick up selectively Georgiev's writings. The Bulgarian linguist has indeed coined for the first time the term 'Daco-Mysian'. He put forth the hypothesis that Albanians might have stem from Dacians. But Georgiev was aware that this scenario is not backed up by any historical evidence. One does not whether to cry or laugh with Andreas Kyropoulos and his like, who delight themselves on such untenable hypothesis.

Soldier of Macedon 01-29-2013 10:44 PM

[QUOTE="Epirus"]Yes it does! While Androutsopoulos was speaking in the context of αρβανίτικη θυσία (Albanian sacrifices), Kolokotronis and the rest are being mention.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I will add the quote to the 'Kolokotronis the Albanian' thread.
[QUOTE]The above verses were dedicated to the Emperor of Nicea, Theodor II Laskaris who attempted to extend his authority over the territories of Western Balkans. A rough translation of the cited passage would be:
[QUOTE]He became at the same time the lord of Thessaly, Achaia, Macedonia and parts of Thrace. He received Dalmatia along with the Epidamus, an Illyrian land, mountainous Albanians. But he gain more pride after his victory against Petro the latin.

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vhU...%CF%82&f=false[/url][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
If you come across a more accurate translation, please post it here.
[QUOTE]Albanians has heaps of Dacian elements indeed.[/QUOTE]
Can you name any specifically 'Dacian' elements in the Albanians? Even the so-called 'Dacian substratum' in Romanian is largely dubious, as words that were once assumed to be 'Dacian' were in fact proven to belong to other languages.
[QUOTE]Knowing that Dacians were utterly Romanized, there is no basis to ascribe them as ancestors of Albanians.[/QUOTE]
The connection I was referring to has much more to do with the prominent eastern Romance elements in Albanian.
[QUOTE]Had the proto-Albanians lived in Dacia, they would left their vestiges behind them. I've sought in vain to trace any cultural vestige which would indicate the presence of Albanians there but could not find any.[/QUOTE]
If language is anything to go by, then the Albanian ethnicity is an amalgamation of several elements. That being the case, it is natural that there is no "presence of Albanians" in Dacia, as the formation of Albanians (as they're currently known) hadn't yet reached its final stages.
[QUOTE]Nearly all historians believe that proto-Romanians used to live in south of Danube.[/QUOTE]
That's not true. The 'south of Danube' theory tries to explain the similarities shared between Romanian and Albanian in favour of the latter, but there are some obvious problems, like the fact that there is still a Macedonian ethno-geographical buffer between them, and the lack of Albanian place names east of Macedonia. Where exactly then, according to this theory, did the Proto Romanians acquire 'Albanian' loanwords? How does this theory explain why there is a large concentration of eastern Romance speakers in what was once Dacia, and only sprinkles of eastern Romance speakers elsewhere in the Balkans? Does it make more sense that the sprinkles congregated into one region (Dacia) over time, or that small groups began to break away from the concentrated mass? Think about it.
[QUOTE]It seems quite likely that Albanians were to be found in the province of Dardania, where they kept intact their identity without being fully Romanized.[/QUOTE]
What identity did they keep?

Epirot 01-30-2013 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139031]
Can you name any specifically 'Dacian' elements in the Albanians? [/QUOTE]

Too begin with, our knowledge on Dacian is very slim as long as no inscriptions were found on that language. So assuming that Dacian might have been the ancestor of Albanian is very hazardous. In terms of specific concordances, Albanian and Dacian are matched together on the development of *au> a (Orel 2000: 12) and the development of *e as well (Orel 2000: 1). It would seem natural to assume that Illyrian and Dacian were more similar that we think. The former has considerably affected Dacia on the ground that during Roman period, thousands of Illyrians were settled there especially in Transylvania, where many mines were in function. Thus Duridanov has reconstructed some Dacian words which have their parallels in Illyrian.

*aba, apa (water, river) > Apos is a Dacian or an Illyrian river name.
*balas (white) > Illyr. Ballios (Ballius, Balleus) possibly stemming from a PIE root *bhel-.

[QUOTE]About 160 of the Romanian substratum words have cognates in Albanian and [COLOR="Blue"][B]therefore may be of Illyrian origin rather than Dacian (1)[/B][/COLOR], as many contemporary scholars consider Albanian to be a modern descendant of the ancient Illyrian language.A possible example is Romanian brad ("fir-tree"), Alb. cognate bradh (same meaning) (2). Duridanov has reconstructed *skuia as a Dacian word for fir-tree,[COLOR="blue"][B]strengthening the possibility that brad may be an Illyrian word for this tree [/B][/COLOR](3).

[B]Ref:[/B]

(1) Polome 1982, p. 998.
(2) DEX brad.
(3) Duridanov 1969, p. 94.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Balaur ("dragon"), ascribed a Dacian origin by some scholars, exemplifies the etymological uncertainties. According to DEX, balaur has also been identified as: a pre-Indo-European relic; or derived from Latin belua or beluaria ("beast" cf. It. belva), or ancient Greek pelorion ("monster"); [COLOR="blue"][B]or as a cognate of Alb. buljar ("water-snake") thus possibly of Illyrian origin.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]To reach the Eastern Balkans, Baltoidic Pre-Thracians and Pre-Dacians had to pass through Albanoidic territory in the Carpathians. I believe they captured some Albanoidics and brought them to the Eastern Balkans as slaves. Some of these Albanoidics escaped westward into the mountains to hide. From these less hospitable, poorer West Balkan areas some of these escaped Albanoidics crossed the Adriatic to Italy and became known as Messapians.[COLOR="blue"][B] The rest remained in the Western Balkans and became known as Illyrians whose direct descendants, I believe, are the Albanians who, incidentally, have kept up their old tradition of wandering on to Italy. [/B][/COLOR]This scenario explains some of the Non-Romance, "native" lexical corespondences between Rumanian and Albanian. Some of these items are Thracian and Dacian words which the ancestors of the Albanians learned from their Baltoidic Thracian and Dacian masters.

[url]http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The Polish linguist Milewski Tadeusz (1966 and 1969) suggests that in the southern regions of Poland appear names that are unusual in northern Poland, possibly related to Dacian [B][COLOR="blue"]or Illyrian names[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Albanian as the result of a mixture of Illyrian and Thracian or Dacian elements. (John Hewson, Vít Bubeník 1997: 104[/QUOTE]

Thus far I cling rather to the theory that a considerable proportion of Albanian names found in Romanian are because of the fact Illyrian has largely influenced Dacian. This rejects any possibility that Albanians have used to live in Dacia. It should be noted that most of Dacian words/names are not explained via Albanian.

Carlin 01-30-2013 07:54 PM

On pages 30, 32, and 33 of this thread I have already argued and posted links & quotes supporting a possible Mardaite origin of modern Albanians.

Herebelow are some additional screenshots.

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury1_zps2d4f25b9.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury2_zps08b943f2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury3_zps241de98e.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury4_zps2955f37d.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/VeikouEpirus_zps02cfdd96.png[/IMG]

Note that Nikopolis, Kephallenia, Dyrrachion refer to Byzantine (Roman) Themes or [U]Regions[/U] - not towns. Here is a quick map as a reference:
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Byzantine_Greece_ca_900_AD.svg[/url]

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou1_zps7a2aa498.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou2_zpscf2a7768.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou3_zps1ff4dd64.png[/IMG]

Last paragraph:
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Marada_zpsc1a5d5d7.png[/IMG]

Risto the Great 01-30-2013 10:14 PM

Interesting.
Is there any information on the Mardaites language?

Epirot 01-31-2013 10:54 AM

Carlin,

A link between Mirdites (one of the chief Albanian tribes) and Mardaites is untenable at best. You're clutching at straws if you try to show them as being the same. Its nothing but a mere of coincidence which comes probably from the similarity on the names. I remind just vaguely a passage I've read somewhere which claimed a possible connection between Alb. Mirdites and an obscure tribe of Persia (being called Mirdi). But even a distant link with Mardaites is altogether false for most of Mirdites bear names which are exclusively Albanian.

[QUOTE] Some of the Mirdites might pass anywhere for Englishmen [COLOR="Blue"][B]of the blonde type[/B][/COLOR].

[url]http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_1/AH1913_7.html[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]and the confederation of [COLOR="Blue"][B]the Mirdites, who are Roman Catholics[/B][/COLOR] and governed by a chief of the Doda family.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]In North Albania, [COLOR="blue"][B]the Mirdites and most of the Malissori are Roman Catholics,[/B][/COLOR] and they are the descendants of the men who, in 1320, after the Serbian Czars, at that time holding Scodra and the plain, had abandoned Catholicism and adopted Orthodoxy, refused to give up their allegiance to the Pope. [/QUOTE]

One is perplexed to know how come that Mirdites were of Roman faith? Had they been from Lebanon, they would be Muslims. Therefore such a connection is nowhere near the truth. The name of Mirdita (region of Mirdites) is quite Albanian. Here is a legend how they received that name:

[QUOTE]Passing from the domain of history to that of philology, he proceeded to explain the derivation of the name Mirdite, according to the tradition of the country. This relates that, on the morning of the battle of Kossova, Sultan Amurath meeting the chief of their tribe, who had brought an auxiliary force to his assistance, was [COLOR="blue"][B]saluted by him with the words mire dite (" good day " in Albanian) [/B][/COLOR]; and that in consequence of this, when the battle was over, and he undertook to guarantee the rights of his valiant allies, [COLOR="blue"][B]he gave them the name of Mirdites, in commemoration of the words of good omen which he had heard in the morning.[/B][/COLOR]

Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mount, Henry Fanshawe Tozer - 2004[/QUOTE]

Considering several posts of yours, I guess you opt for an Arabian origin of the Albanians. As the Muslim turned A. B. Kopanski (of Polish descent) has argued, many Muslim writers were fond of arabizing the origin of certain people who received Islam. I don't know whether you've read Kopanski's article, so I extracted some interesting parts:

[QUOTE]The Muslim ethnographers and chroniclers of the 'European' Middle Ages tried to explain the ethnogenesis of Albanian 'Al-Arna'uts' according to their own knowledge. They identified the ancestors of these Al-Arnauts with the Christian Arab tribes who migrated to the heartland of Byzantine empire. [COLOR="Red"][B]The Arab writers of the classic ages of Islam knew the geographical treatises of cosmographos Ptolemy from Alexandria ( the 2nd century CE), who described the Illyrian tribe 'Albanoi' as the bellicose inhabitants who lived between the Roman-controlled Dyrrachion and Albanopolis.[/B][/COLOR] The Muslims of al-Andalus and Sicily also [COLOR="red"][B]knew very well the Sakaliba, or the Alanic-origin Slavicized Croats and Serbs who as the 'mamluks' of the Altaic Avars invaded the Illyrian part of the Balkans in the first years of Hijrah. [COLOR="red"][U]The Slovenians and the Slavicized Croats and Serbs forced the native Albanoi herdmen to desert their ancient cradle Arbanon, north of the lake Ohrid[/U][/COLOR]. [/B][/COLOR][COLOR="Blue"][B]Known to the medieval Europeans as Arber or Arben, these Albanian fiset (clans) fortified themselves in the hills of south-western Illyricum.[/B][/COLOR] Probably some Arab Christian emigrants from Syria lived in Macedonia in the seventh century CE. It is possible that they joined the expelled Illyrian Albanians on their trek to a new settlement inside the Shqeptaria. The Byzantine sources indicate that the Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut, fled from Syria during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, was himself a scion of of Jabal, the last Ghassanid chieftain. During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum.' (1)

In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious dark-skinned Morovlachi from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christianswere completely Serbicized in the end of sixteen century.

There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily
and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the
narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills . How many survivors of the massacre of the
Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the Crne Arapi (Black Arabs) of the medieval Hum, Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim
intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto ('Amir Abad'). (2)

Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

[COLOR="blue"][B]Like the medieval Christian humanists who identified the Turks with the ancient mythical 'Teucros' described by Homer, or the Muslims with the ancient 'Musulami'(the warlike people of African Numidia), [U]the Muslim writers of the classic ages of Islam tried to 'Arabize' origin of many peoples with the mythical nations known to them from the pre-Islamic Arab legends[/U].[/B][/COLOR] For example, [U]the medieval Arabs believed that the Caucassian peoples are descendants of Banu Kureish, and the Nordic Sakaliba (Slavs), as well as the Turkic Bashgurd (Bashkirs) and Bulgars were descendants of the giant Yemenites of Ad.[/U] (3)

Before the Osmanli conquest of the eastern coast of Adriatic Sea, no army representing centralized government has ever penetrated the Albanian heartland. The Roman legions ignored the rocky hills, reducing their own presence to the fortified posts alongside the famous Via Egnatia. [COLOR="blue"][B]The majestic remotness of 'White Hills' reinforced the cultural isolation of its people. This outlying mountains of Albania acted always as a natural bulwark and the Adriatic coast below them as a rampart against any foreign invasion.[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][B]Albanians are the last and the most virile European nation of clans.[/B][/COLOR] They preserved their doughty love of patriarchal freedom and the extraordinary degree of masculine dignity

[url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/shqiperia/message/1174[/url][/QUOTE]

George S. 01-31-2013 12:26 PM

How about the albanians who were from Albania in asia minor.Their movements to Albania
(illyria) about 6 -7 century .Seems to be a more plausible theory.The Mardaites is it really talking of albanians?If so what were their language??Seems to be very little evidence.

Carlin 01-31-2013 12:51 PM

Hi Epirot -

[Quote]Carlin,

A link between Mirdites (one of the chief Albanian tribes) and Mardaites is untenable at best. You're clutching at straws if you try to show them as being the same. Its nothing but a mere of coincidence which comes probably from the similarity on the names. I remind just vaguely a passage I've read somewhere which claimed a possible connection between Alb. Mirdites and an obscure tribe of Persia (being called Mirdi). But even a distant link with Mardaites is altogether false for most of Mirdites bear names which are exclusively Albanian.[/Quote]

The link between Mirdites and Mardaites is as untenable as the link between Illyrians and Albanians, or Dacians with Albanians. It's a hypothesis nonetheless, just like the Illyrian theory (..but we know virtually nothing of the Illyrian languages and dialects, so they can't be classified in any way. The connection of Illyrian with modern Albanian is conjecture and speculation - it's not based on linguistic facts or other readily available information that can be compared and evaluated. It's an "assumption" and a hypothesis.)

As I have already indicated, my hypothesis rests mainly on historical facts and reports which tell us that a people named [I]Mardaites[/I], were settled in significant numbers in Epirus, Aetolia, Kephallenia and other Balkan lands as per policy of Roman (Byzantine) emperors. This settlement and migration is as well attested as that of Slavic and Bulgar settlement in the Balkans. I have no reason to doubt or dispute its historicity.

In general, migrations (voluntary or involuntary) and settlements occurred quite frequently. [I]Local[/I] migrations took place as well, and oftentimes went unnoticed by the historian. Due to wars and famines entire tribes and towns used to be depopulated (more than once), and had to be replaced by newcomers. The villages and towns in border areas between states and empires suffered the most; many such migrations and re-settlements happened as a result of politics and diplomatic or political agreements.

[Quote]Some of the Mirdites might pass anywhere for Englishmen of the blonde type.[/Quote]

They may as well be of the blonde type. This is of no interest to me.

[Quote]and the confederation of the Mirdites, who are Roman Catholics and governed by a chief of the Doda family.[/Quote]

I know that many Albanians are Roman Catholics.

[Quote]In North Albania, the Mirdites and most of the Malissori are Roman Catholics, and they are the descendants of the men who, in 1320, after the Serbian Czars, at that time holding Scodra and the plain, had abandoned Catholicism and adopted Orthodoxy, refused to give up their allegiance to the Pope.
One is perplexed to know how come that Mirdites were of Roman faith? [B]Had they been from Lebanon, they would be Muslims.[/B] Therefore such a connection is nowhere near the truth. The name of Mirdita (region of Mirdites) is quite Albanian. Here is a legend how they received that name..[/Quote]

Incorrect. The Mardaites were non-Orthodox Christians (most likely Monothelete Christians), even when they lived in Lebanon and adjacent areas. I have already indicated this in one of my previous posts. They were not Muslims.

Even as Monotheletes the Romans used the Mardaites as allies and proxies in their wars and battles against the Muslims (Arabs) and other enemies.

In addition to this, here is a copy & paste from one of my previous posts which I have not edited (but reserve the right to update/edit my views as I continue reading and learning):

[I]The regions of Albania and Epirus have traditionally been under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople church, and the Roman/Byzantine authorities regarded the inhabitants of these provinces as Orthodox Christians (regardless of what their ethnic background might be). I'm not aware that Western Christians/Catholics exerted any meaningful influence on these territories prior to the (roughly) 1000s but I might be mistaken. Anyway, it seems that no such influence can be found and it would appear plausible to conclude that Illyrians were Christianized (at some point) by Constantinople/Eastern church.

This is where the problem arises. If Illyrians became Orthodox Christians, how come the Albanians were not? If anything, a neutral observer would expect them to remain pagans but this is not the case. The Byzantines regarded them as "heretic" Christians and "half-believers", just like the Mardaites!

If we now trace the history of the settlement of Mardaites in these territories, starting with Epirus, the attitude of the Byzantine authorities starts to make more sense as Mardaites were either Monothelite or Monophysite Christians. These branches of Christianity originated in the Levant.

At best, the influence of the Roman Catholic church started only after 1082, when the Normans captured Durres. After the Normans, Venetians appear on the scene. It was the Roman Catholics who further popularized the term Albania, establishing Regnum Albanae.[/I]
[Quote]Passing from the domain of history to that of philology, he proceeded to explain the derivation of the name Mirdite, according to the tradition of the country. This relates that, on the morning of the battle of Kossova, Sultan Amurath meeting the chief of their tribe, who had brought an auxiliary force to his assistance, was saluted by him with the words mire dite (" good day " in Albanian) ; and that in consequence of this, when the battle was over, and he undertook to guarantee the rights of his valiant allies, he gave them the name of Mirdites, in commemoration of the words of good omen which he had heard in the morning.

Researches in the Highlands of Turkey: Including Visits to Mount, Henry Fanshawe Tozer - 2004[/Quote]

No problem.

[Quote]Considering several posts of yours, I guess you opt for an Arabian origin of the Albanians. As the Muslim turned A. B. Kopanski (of Polish descent) has argued, many Muslim writers were fond of arabizing the origin of certain people who received Islam.[/Quote]

You did not read my posts in detail. The Mardaites were not Arabs. They most likely spoke an Indo-European language or dialect. Some have thought the Mardaites to be Persians, Kurds, or Armenians - but not much is known and such assertions are based on "belief" and not facts (even in this scenario it would place them in the Indo-European family of languages and peoples).

I refrain from taking any final 'stand' or final 'point of view' (as more evidence and facts may always be uncovered) on anything.

Based on the evidence I have read so far I opt, [I]probabilistically[/I], for a Mardaite origin of Albanians.



--> Updated note with additional info:

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Gordon1_zpsabc86781.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Gordon2_zps4f151768.png[/IMG]


What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text [B]compiled around the beginning of the 11th century[/B]. [34] It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: Orthodox, half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians) and non-believers. [B]The Albanians find their place among the nations of [U]half-believers[/U].[/B] If the dating of Grujic is accepted, which is based primarily upon the contents of the text as a whole, this would be the earliest written document referring to the Albanians as a people or language group. [35]

It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are twelve languages of half-believers: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), [B]Arbanasi (Albanians)[/B], Croatians, Hizi, Germans.

34.^ R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th – 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3
35.^ Extract from: Grujic, Radoslav: Legenda iz vremena Cara Samuila o poreklu naroda. in: Glasnik skopskog naucnog drustva, Skopje, 13 (1934), p. 198 200. Translated from the Old Church Slavonic by Robert Elsie. First published in R. Elsie: Early Albania, a Reader of Historical Texts, 11th – 17th Centuries, Wiesbaden 2003, p. 3. Albanian History.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians[/url]

Epirot 01-31-2013 04:54 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;139108]as untenable as the link between Illyrians and Albanians, or Dacians with Albanians.[/QUOTE]

Carlin, all kinds of inquiry points to an Illyrian origin of the Albanians. Our knowledge on Illyrian is scanty as long as no Illyrian inscription has been found so far. But Albanian stand near than any other language to the Illyrian (several toponymes as well as anthroponymes were explained via Albanian). When several Messapian words were discovered, linguists noticed some similarities with Albanian, making plain the fact that Albanian is a continuation of one of the Illyrian dialects. A more convincing connection is demonstrated by the culture. There is ample evidence to point out certain Illyrian traditions and customs which in Albania are still in use. One may mention in passing the polyphonic singing, white cap - pileus - as well as Pyrrhic dance. Additional evidence might be found as well in genetics - one of them draw the attention to the considerable Illyrian component on modern Albanians.

[QUOTE=Carlin;139108]The connection of Illyrian with modern Albanian is conjecture and speculation - it's not based on linguistic facts or other readily available information that can be compared and evaluated.[/QUOTE]

Actually the Illyrian theory is still the most received by modern scholars. Even the most scepticists agree with the Illyrian theory, although they have their hesitations at the place where the Albanians were shaped. In short, linguists are still arguing whether proto-Albanians lived always in Albania or they came from the interior Balkans (they consider province of Dardania as more plausible). That assumption is based on the fact that Albanian is lacking of maritime terminology, while admitedly its vocabulary is way richer in the field of livestock. If Albanian is lacking of original nautical terms, this might be attributed to certain factors. They might have used to live throghout Adriatic shores before they shifted to the mountains. The Slavic invasion, thus, prompted a switch from the agriculture to the semi-nomadic type of sheep-breeding. Its very plausible that transhumance has most contributed to the impoverishment of maritime terminology. Other linguists have opted for other locations like Dacia Rispensis (Orel) or Carpia (Russu), but their hypothesis are totally unfounded considering that no source indicate the arrival of Albanians. The most palpable arguments on the Illyrian origin of Albanians are as following:

- Not all Illyrians did succumb to the Romanization. Roman sources are abounds with references to a non-Romanized population which used to live in Illyria. Its worth of mentioning the opinion of Fanulla Papazoglu: [B][COLOR="Red"]"In conclusion, Dardania is evidently one of the less Romanized Balkan provinces".[/COLOR][/B].

- Powerful Illyrian streams from North found shelter in northern Albania, which suits perfectly for survival due to its rugged terrain. In accord with that is perhaps the fact Slavs were barely to be found in northern Albania including Montenegro (who geographically form one unit):

"Not only is there no evidence of the Slav' period in the cities of Dukle, but [COLOR="red"][B]no Slav settlement or necropolis has been found anywhere in Montenegro[/B][/COLOR], with the probable exception of the mixed necropolis of Mijela near Virpazar on Lake Shkoder".

[IMG]http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-I4RLUldB3mE/UOCqCE7ncCI/AAAAAAAALms/unZljI1iKHI/s320/%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%8C%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%B9%CF%82+2.jpg[/IMG]

I don't give much weight to the repeated statement that Albanians went unnoticed down to XIth century. All of Roman Empire was in state of upheaval making difficult to record every corner of territory. When some tranquility took place, Byzantines caught their attention to several scattered pockets which were evidently non-Slavic. That's why the Byzantines restored their power precisely on the Albanians and Vlachs. Both of them were mentioned approximately at the same time. Byzantines had no hint that Albanians arrived from elsewhere. Their chroniclers constantly refer to Albania as Illyria or to its inhabitants as Illyrians:

[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/1zywlma.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2cxdyjq.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/2m469ab.jpg[/IMG]


[QUOTE][B]Donald M. Nicol, “The Despotate of Epiros (1267 -1479), p. 192-3:[/B]

The Chronicle of Tocco, though it breaks off seven years before he died, must stand as the encomium and the epitaph of Carlo Tocco. Bessarion would not have approved of its vulgar language and its lack of finesse. But in its simple way it is more eloquent of the truth of Carlo's life and of the people whom he conquered and ruled than the sophistries and artificialities of the numerous encomia and epitaphs produced by more polished and learned Byzantine writers of the age. One of them, Isidore of Kiev, author of a lengthy panegyric of John VIII Palaiologos, devotes four of his sixty-seven pages to the achievements of Carlo Tocco. He was, says Isidore, a man of action, well trusted by the emperors and honoured by them with the title of Despot. His ancestral realm was insular, comprising the islands of Ithaka, Zakynthos, Leukas and Cephalonia. Little by little he added to it the Epirote portion of the Aitolians as far as the lands of the Thesprotians and the Molossians, and the area from Acheloos up to the Euenos river. The coastal parts of this territory, writes Isidore, eager to show off his erudition, are inhabited by Hellenes; [COLOR="red"][B]but the interior and upper regions are peopled by barbarians … (among whom) [U][COLOR="red"]are the Albanians, an Illyrian race[/COLOR][/U][/B][/COLOR] of nomadic and wretched lifestyle, with no cities, castles, villages, fields or vineyards. The cities of Epiros, however, are still of pure Hellenic stock: Ambrakia (Arta), on the Gulf of that name, and the other (Ioannina) a city founded by one John, which stands on the Acherousian Lake and may have been the Ephyra of the ancient Thesprotians.
[/QUOTE]

The link between Albanians and Illyrians is more than a mere assumption. It's a well-rooted tradition which can be traced back to the Byzantine authors. Recent investigation has just bolstered it by proving that Albanians were descendants of Illyrians.

[QUOTE=Carlin;139108]This settlement and migration is as well attested as that of Slavic and Bulgar settlement in the Balkans. I have no reason to doubt or dispute its historicity.[/QUOTE]

I do not dispute it either. Your chief error consist on the fact you make generalization on Mardaites. Based on what you assume that Mardaites were spread in a large territory including all of Albania?

[QUOTE=Carlin;139108]This is where the problem arises. If Illyrians became Orthodox Christians, how come the Albanians were not? If anything, a neutral observer would expect them to remain pagans but this is not the case.[/QUOTE]

Yet there is an interesting proof. No source ascribe the Christianization of Albanians which plainly means that Albanians have embraced the new faith centuries before Slavic invasions. Had the Albanians been pagans at that period, Byzantines surely would sent their missionaries to baptize them as they did with Bulgarians and certain barbarian peoples. But no missionary has been sent to Albanians.

Soldier of Macedon 02-02-2013 05:27 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;139059]In terms of specific concordances, Albanian and Dacian are matched together on the development of *au> a (Orel 2000: 12) and the development of *e as well (Orel 2000: 1).[/QUOTE]
In which words?
[QUOTE]It would seem natural to assume that Illyrian and Dacian were more similar.......[/QUOTE]
Right, but are those similarities shared with Albanian? The surviving Dacian list of words seems to have more similarities with Balto-Slavic than with Albanian.
[QUOTE]About 160 of the Romanian substratum words have cognates in Albanian..........[/QUOTE]
Which of those common words between the two are cognates with recorded Dacian and/or Illyrian words?
[QUOTE]The Polish linguist Milewski Tadeusz (1966 and 1969) suggests that in the southern regions of Poland appear names that are unusual in northern Poland, possibly related to Dacian or Illyrian names......[/QUOTE]
How many of those regional names can be explained through Albanian?

George S. 02-02-2013 06:45 AM

Nothing is said of a connect of albanians with dacians except that the romanians originated from the dacians.

Epirot 02-02-2013 08:06 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139165]In which words?
[/QUOTE]

I think Orel's study deals with that:

[IMG]http://i50.tinypic.com/14v5ztc.jpg[/IMG]

Whereas the following link display several phonetic commonalities:

[url]http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/35070[/url]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139165]Right, but are those similarities shared with Albanian? [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139165]Which of those common words between the two are cognates with recorded Dacian and/or Illyrian words?[/QUOTE]

Before I further proceed on asnwering your question, I shall demonstrate some interesting cognates which link Illyrian with Dacian. I'd be interested to know your opinion if a link between the above languages is feasible. The name of Dacian has a cognate in Illyrian:

[QUOTE]Bronwen Riley and Dan Dinescu, Transylvania: The ancient geographer Strabo wrote that the Dacians, the original inhabitants of Romania, once called themselves '[B][COLOR="Red"]Daoi', which has been linked with the Phrygian word for wolf, daos, and [U]the Illyrian word dhaunos[/U], of the same meaning[/COLOR][/B] ( 2007: 107)
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] Budimir, however, discussing only the word acomw, connects it with the [B][COLOR="Red"]Illyrian sabaia, "beer", and also with the Dacian seba-[/COLOR][/B]
(Papazoglou 1978: 219)[/QUOTE]

Certain Dacian words which have possibly been noticed in Romanian are to be found in Albanian as well:

[QUOTE]Linguists have studied the Romanian language to find which words come from Dacian origin. They have discovered one hundred and sixty words with this origin.

These terms cover a very wide area beginning with the human body (buz| = lip; ceaf| = nape; grumaz = neck; guÕ| = goitre), the family (copil = child; prunc = baby; zestre = dowry) . . . agricultural, pastoral, viticultural, piscicultural activities (maz| re = peas; Ûarin| =tilled land; baci = shepherd making cheese; mînz = colt; strung| = small gate through which sheep are passed to be milked; Ûarc = enclosure . . .gard = fence), the physical environment (m| gur| = lone hill or mountain; mal = bank) the flora (brad = fir-tree; copac = tree) . . . Certainly the number of these terms will increase following subsequent research; they will also show us other aspects of the linguistic inheritance; scholars already consider as belonging to this inheritance the suffixes -esc, -e Õ te, which are so frequent in Romanian and characteristic of it (Giurescu 60-61).

[url]http://linguistics.byu.edu/classes/ling450ch/reports/romanian.html[/url][/QUOTE]

*Mal is well-attested in Illyrian.
*Karpa is well-attested in both Illyria and Dacia.
*Buza is also attested in Illyrian as well as in Thracian. The most plausible theory remain that which links with Alb. buzë/a (lip).

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139165]How many of those regional names can be explained through Albanian?[/QUOTE]

The Polish linguist drew attention to the name of Carpati:

[QUOTE]the name Karpaty only the old short a remained and a, conf. with the Greek Kagfidrr/;, German Harfada, [COLOR="Red"][B]Albanian karpę[/B][/COLOR].[/QUOTE].
Even the name of Balaton lake is being associated with Albanian by Milewski. It might have been of Illyrian origin considering that Illyrians were well-established there.

[QUOTE]G. Bonfante (1985) and others after him also posit an Illyrian word *balta that lives on in the Albanian language (balte 'silt, mud')[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]V. Toporov showed that *balt 'swamp' survives in many place names [COLOR="Red"][B]from the southern shores of the Baltic down to the Mediterranean [/B][/COLOR](Toporov 1975-90/1, 189)[/QUOTE]

In addition with that, there are several other examples which points to that name in Illyria (the Lombardian dialect palta, the Trieste dialect paltan (=mud), ancient Dalmatian balta (= wet), Albanian balte).

Carlin 02-03-2013 11:50 AM

Hello Epirot.

1) I don’t want to retread the arguments for the Illyrian origin of Albanians (so I will not address some of your comments at this moment). There are strong arguments against this theory as well, but I will not post them either.

In short, I am very doubtful of the linguistic explanations and arguments provided but of course it is a valid, working hypothesis.

All of the proposed Messapian cognates you outline are only proposed and likely etymologies. For each of them there are other cognates from a variety of languages; but we are dealing with a handful of words at best. To the best of my knowledge, both Illyrian and Messapian are classified as extinct languages and linguists can't say much about them in general. Albanian being a continuation of one of the Illyrian dialects simply does not follow here, and is again an assumption. It does not constitute a convincing proof or connection. In many cases linguists play 'etymological games' with one another and come up with words and etymologies that rest on faulty assumptions.

There are tons of theories out there. Here is one -
SLAVIC, A BALTICIZED ALBANIAN?
[url]http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm[/url]

2) You are correct about Albanians' appearance in history. Even if the Albanians were mentioned for the first time in the 11th century it does not follow that Albanians arrived in the Balkans only in the 11th century. They were there earlier, but how ‘earlier’ is a question for investigation. Another question would be: if they did appear earlier, did they appear under a different designation or name? Do we have any literary or other sources?

Tribes and population groups usually appeared under various and different names or terms, depending on the time period and inclination and writing style of the chroniclers. The Byzantine writers were notorious as being unreliable in this respect; they usually “classicized” names of peoples indiscriminantly and used antiquarian terms at will. They referred to Slavs as Scythians, Sarmatians, Moesians, and other names; after a few centuries Scythians “turned into” Pechenegs and Cumans. Turks were Persians, and even Slavs of Thessaly were referred to as being Achilles’ Myrmidons. Serbs were Dalmatians and Triballians; Vlachs, Goths, Turkic tribes and others were all styled as Dacians depending on the time, context, and agenda of the writer.

I do not doubt that a [I]tradition[/I] developed at some point which prompted the writers to refer to Albanians as Illyrians (but traditions are quite unreliable and can be invented and developed; they may have been conjured up by the writers themselves who in many cases emulated the literary styles of Herodotus and Thucydides).

I would say that some Byzantine writers were quite deluded, and exhibited similar tendencies. Gemisthus Pletho thought that the populations of Morea were direct descendants of the ancient Hellenes – even though I’m sure he was well aware of the fact that Slavs, ‘Illyrians’ (Albanians), Jews, ‘Egyptians’ (Roma), ‘Italians’ (Venetians and other Roman Catholics from the Italian peninsula), and other ethnic groups lived in Morea at that time period. Chalkokondyles wrote that the Serbs are the autochthonous population of the Balkans and identified them with Triballians, an ancient Thracian tribe with Celtic and Illyrian influences. Niketas Choniates also wrote: [I]“… Shortly after this, he campaigned against the [B]nation of Triballians[/B] (whom someone may call Serbians as well)..”[/I]

If we are forced to discount such claims and traditions about the modern Serbs or Bulgarians (who were Moesians according to some authors), why should we accept similar claims and language used to describe the Albanians? Such expressions were merely literary devices and quite popular in the Middle Ages.

Question for you: When did Ephraemius write his piece? It seems it was after the 11th century.


3)

[Quote]

The link between Albanians and Illyrians is more than a mere assumption. It's a well-rooted tradition which can be traced back to the Byzantine authors. Recent investigation has just bolstered it by proving that Albanians were descendants of Illyrians.

[/Quote]

What recent investigation?

Have you read about the Avar archaeological finds or Avar-Slav culture in Albania? Many areas of Albania, Epirus, and even Thessaly were populated by Slavs in significant numbers (and even further south).

Some modern Greek authors, but also others, deliberately seek to minimize or whitewash the impact of Slavic colonization south of and including Epirus. Such arguments are mostly quasi-scientific in nature and are motivated by ideological biases.


4) On the Mardaites again.

After the Mardaites were settled in Epirus, Aetolia, Acarnania, Kephallenia, and Peloponnese they may have expanded into adjacent territories and areas. I have also provided a citation that states that Mardaites may have settled even in the Theme of Dyrrachion, which is significant as it represents the coastal and inland regions of modern day Albania.

Note that the territories Mardaites were reported to have settled in directly correspond to historical [I]ethnic Albanian lands [/I](as late as the 19th century). According to a document of the Latin sovereigns of Corfu dated 1365, which ratifies an earlier (1246) decree of Michael II, the ruler of Epirus, refers to a “decarhia Mardatorum”. (Does this refer to Albanians?) I leave it to the reader to conclude whether it seems probable that Mardaites could have expanded into new territories. I will provide some comparable and detailed examples in a different post to illustrate the plausibility of rapid ethnic change in a given territory and/or new population groups replacing and pushing out the previous inhabitants. I maintain that Mardaites expanding into adjacent territories is not an incorrect assumption, as we have many similar examples throughout human history.

As you pointed out, the Byzantine Empire was in a repeated state of upheaval and continually devastated by wars, invasions, and other calamities. In general, I agree with statements by those historians that the greater part of the population was unfortunately wiped out, and replaced by colonists from different regions within the empire, and even outside of empire’s borders. [B]Even in the days of Strabo, Epirus was desolate, and contained only ruined villages*[/B]. The following centuries only brought further devastation and repeated settlements of various ethnic groups all over the Balkan peninsula. Albania and Epirus were not immune from this process. To conclude, by the time Mardaites were settled in Epirus and other regions, they may have settled (and expanded) into lands that were in great part depopulated and desolate.

* - Page 223, [I]A Handbook for Travellers in the Ionian Islands, Greece, Turkey, Asia Minor ...[/I]:

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=3A0NAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA223&dq=Strabo+Epirus&hl=en&sa=X&ei=T5QOUY6rFqW10AH_m4GoDQ&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Strabo%20Epirus&f=false[/url]

George S. 02-03-2013 03:11 PM

Carlin; how about the country called ALBANIA IN ASIA MINOR.In old days it was on the maps what happened to the albanian population.How can these people be illyrian???,Thracian??
Dacian??I think it's all far fetched.If the Dacian's spoke a language what was it???There are far too many inconsistencies.


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