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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Epirot 08-18-2010 11:28 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67567]I am positive that pears were/are also grown outside of historical Dardania, speaking of which, were Krushevo and Korche in Dardania?[/QUOTE]

For some period Kora's plain was under Dardanian domination as many archeological findings had indicated (see Nicholas Hammond). Dardanians took possession of Lake Lyhnid and regions around itand possibly left some traces. I find as an interesting case some survival toponymes in Kora like the name of a small village called [B][I]Dardh. [/I][/B]

More about it geographical location:

[QUOTE]KOR: Grammos Mountains (Mali i Grammozit), ca 3.8 km southwest of village Dardh, northern slope of Mount.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2a/Epirus_ethnic_(Greek_point_of_view).JPG[/url]

[QUOTE]How would you use the word 'delme' in a sentence today? From what I can see, the Albanian word for sheep is either 'dhen' or 'dele'. [/QUOTE]

You're right about two words that are used in Albanian to denote a 'sheep'. We usually use [B][I]'dhen'[/I][/B] when we talks about sheeps (in plural) and '[B][I]dele[/I][/B]' (in singular) or 'dele[B]t[/B]' in plural.

[QUOTE]In Macedonian 'shar' means stripes or marks, it can also mean colourful if said as 'sharen'. This can be connected to rugged-looking terrain. How would you use 'sharre' in a sentence today?[/QUOTE]

It looks interesting that in both two languages the cognate words for Sharr mountain are connected somehow with its rugged relief. Now I remind that it is even an another similar world in Albanian with 'Sharr' as its root. We use for instance 'Sharroj' to say 'fell down'. An example:
[B][I]Sharrova thell n nj pellg uji[/I][/B]
[B][I]I fell down deep in a puddle of water. [/I][/B]

[B]"Sharroj"[/B] is just a homonym with [B][I]'Sharroj'[/I][/B] that mean /[B][I]to cut down a tree[/I][/B]/.

Epirot 08-18-2010 11:38 AM

An another etymology that calls for some attention is the name of [B][I]Pelagonia[/I][/B]. If this ancient name is a pre-Illyrian name (i.e Paeonian one) then it has a cognate word in Albanian which fits to the geographical nature of Pelagonia as a land of waters. Pelagonia can be related with Alb. [B][COLOR="Red"][I]'pellg'[/I][/COLOR][/B] (or pellgje in plural) that means "[B][I]pool, puddle, backwater[/I][/B]":

[url]http://www.argjiro.net/fjalor/index.php3[/url]

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/PaeoniaPaioniaMap.png[/IMG]

You know that Pelagonia encompassed a region that was full of lakes and rivers.

Lakes:

- Lake of Ohrid
- Lakes of Prespa
- Lake "Orestiada" (Λίμνη Ορεστιάδα)

Rivers:

-Haliacmon
etc.

Epirot 08-18-2010 12:53 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67568]Where is that place?[/QUOTE]

Kastrat is close to the Albanian-Montengrin boundary.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastrat[/url]

Epirot 08-18-2010 12:55 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67567]Edith Durham was an Albanophile who spent most of her travels through the Balkans in Albania. [/QUOTE]

Taking in account some Albanian possibilities regarding some etymologies does not make anyone an Albanophile!

Sovius 08-18-2010 02:25 PM

Epirot,
Lets say we move beyond antiquated speculation for a bit and examine some concrete evidence:

identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria

Source:

[url]http://my.opera.com/macedonianneighbourhood/blog/show.dml/4235614[/url]

[SIZE="2"](visit often, much to learn)[/SIZE]



It would appear as though your strict argument allows you only two options:

Are you stating that the Ancient Illyrians migrated from the Caucasus region into Europe or are you stating that the Ancient Illyrians were a Caucasian language speaking people from the Balkans who conquered an entire region in Central Eurasia, yet left no trace of evidence that would suggest that they had ever done so, except for these place names?

It would be interesting to get your take on this conundrum here.

Bill77 08-18-2010 08:17 PM

Epirot,

Here is what one of your own says. You might know him :wink:

Dr. Kaplan Resuli-Burovich:

[QUOTE] That, as well, witnesses the ethno genesis of the Albanians after their arrival on the Balkan and populating the northern Albanian mountains. I have already mentioned about the Illyrians, but the second ethnonym to which they pretend, the Dardanians, it is known, were not Illyrians, but Thracians. Even if they (Dardanians) had been Illyrians, again they havent any connection with the Albanians, because that kind of connection neither have the Illyrians themselves. Science has proven that very clearly. In respect of the Albanoi (an) s, they are a Celtic tribe, which on the territory of Albania, in the region Mat, arrives in the IV century BC. Todays Albanians, actually, only much, much later take over their name, as have done todays Bulgarians from the non slavic Bulgars of Asparuh, or todays French, from the old Germanic Franks, deforming the old Celtic name Arlbn/Arlbr. Arbanasi is the other name with which our ancestors the Slavs are naming them during the Middle Ages. Arnauts is the name, which the Turks use for them. It should be known that not all Arnauts were at the same time Albanians, as well. Because the Arnauts (Albanians) got a reputation as good hired hands in the Turkish Empire, the other mercenaries were also called Arnauts. That means that there were Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians ARNAUTS, because some of them are also islamised, thus as Muslims they serve under the Turkish flag not only as common soldiers, but also as arnauts (mercenaries). Skiptar (or Shiptar and deformed Shiftar, all originate from the Albanian appellative Shqiptar) is the current national name of the Albanians, spread amongst them in the XVII-XIX century, influenced by the name Osman, as the Turks were naming themselves. Namely, osman in Turkish is eagle, while in Albanian it is shquipe. Thus, the Albanians of Muslim faith wanted to relate themselves with the Muslims Turks, which was also the aim of the Porte, even of the original platform of the Prizren League, which originally is not Albanian at all, but pan Islamic. And if its primary aims succeeded, most probably the Albanians would not exist today because all of them in the meantime would have become Turks. [/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 08-18-2010 10:25 PM

[QUOTE=slovenec zrinski;67546]They are bosnians and not albanians in Novi Pazar...

And btw..good work on this thread SoM.[/QUOTE]
Hey Zrinski, thanks.

It hasn't really been challenging thus far, to be honest.

Soldier of Macedon 08-18-2010 10:28 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;67583]Taking in account some Albanian possibilities regarding some etymologies does not make anyone an Albanophile![/QUOTE]
Epirot, she was an Albanophile, no doubt about it. I don't think she has ever written anything critical about Albanians, has she? Have you read all of her works concerning the Albanians? She appears to have been very anti-Slavic.

George S. 08-18-2010 10:40 PM

Do people know that the modern albanians have no connection to the iluyrians due to the fact that they emigrated from Albania in Asia.
Just asking people if they know because there's heaps of theories going about the origins of Albanians.

Soldier of Macedon 08-18-2010 10:44 PM

George, how are people going to know if you don't inform them? What has led you to this conclusion? What do you have in support of such an argument? This is what we need to see, otherwise anybody is capable of stating a one-liner.

Soldier of Macedon 08-18-2010 10:46 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;67582]Kastrat is close to the Albanian-Montengrin boundary.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kastrat[/url][/QUOTE]
Other accounts indicate that Kastriot's father came from much further south than the Montenegrin border. How are these two opposing views reconciled?

Soldier of Macedon 08-18-2010 10:50 PM

[QUOTE=Epirot;67581]An another etymology that calls for some attention is the name of [B][I]Pelagonia[/I][/B]. If this ancient name is a pre-Illyrian name (i.e Paeonian one) then it has a cognate word in Albanian which fits to the geographical nature of Pelagonia as a land of waters. Pelagonia can be related with Alb. [B][COLOR="Red"][I]'pellg'[/I][/COLOR][/B] (or pellgje in plural) that means "[B][I]pool, puddle, backwater[/I][/B]":

[url]http://www.argjiro.net/fjalor/index.php3[/url]

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/PaeoniaPaioniaMap.png[/IMG]

You know that Pelagonia encompassed a region that was full of lakes and rivers.

Lakes:

- Lake of Ohrid
- Lakes of Prespa
- Lake "Orestiada" (Λίμνη Ορεστιάδα)

Rivers:

-Haliacmon
etc.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, I think I have asked this a few times, but I am still yet to receive an answer from you. How do you explain the Illyrian word for lake having a close cognate and almost exact match in Macedonian and other Slavic languages? It couldn't have been borrowed by 'invaders' because the Russians also use the same cognate. Albanians don't.

What are your thoughts?

Epirot 08-20-2010 05:59 PM

[QUOTE]The Albanians

[COLOR="Red"][B]The Albanians, or more accurately their ancestors the Illyrians, "appeared" in the western Balkans around 1200 BC (or BCE, Before Christian Era).[/B][/COLOR] More precisely, we can say that around 1200 BC the archaeological record shows a "discontinuity," a significant break in material culture during a short span of time. Objects left in graves and the structure of grave sites changed. Nineteenth century writers explained this (and similar events, especially among the Greeks) by describing supposed waves of Indo-European invaders: men, women and children travelling in wagons out of the steppes, driving their herds before them and wiping out the existing population. Modern scholars argue for scenarios with less drama. Alterations in burials can mean a total change in population, but they can also mean that an existing population adopted new customs, with or without the arrival of large numbers of new people. For example, future archaelogists should not see the sudden appearance of Japanese VCRs in late twentieth century American landfills as evidence of migration or invasion, but only of trade and cultural contact. The same thing is true in Balkan prehistory. In 1200 BC, people in the Western Balkans took up the cultural practices that we call "Illyrian". Some new people probably entered the area, and some of the old population probably remained.

After 1200 BC, classical Greek records describe the Illyrians as a non-Greek people to the north and west. The Illyrians left no "historic" or written records of their own. We have to use linguistic and archaeological evidence to trace their story. Based on this evidence, scholars will say that the Illyrians inhabited the region which today makes up Albania and the former Yugoslavia. [COLOR="red"]Their descendants have remained in the mountains of present-day Albania continuously since 1200 BC: today's Albanians are in fact linked to the Illyrians. [COLOR="Blue"]In the rest of former Illyria, other peoples took their place[/COLOR].[/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"][B]Albanian is an Indo-European language, but one without relatives; it is believed to be the only surviving language descended from ancient Illyrian. The linguistic evidence is not simple. Modern Albanian is obviously very different from the language of its neighbors,[/B][/COLOR] but we have nothing written in the language before the year 1555 of the Christian era, unlike Greek and the Slavic languages, for which we have classical and/or medieval writings dating back to a very early period. Direct linguistic descent is easy to trace in those kinds of records, but not for Illyrian/Albanian. The linguistic evidence here relies on fields like "onomastics", the study of place names and the names for everyday objects, and complex reasoning from meagre facts.

[COLOR="red"][B]Archaeology is the second source for Albanian prehistory. Scholars can trace a continuous evolution of burial goods, ornamentation on costumes, and cultural practices (deduced from material remains) from 1200 BC forward to the historic Middle Ages.[/B][/COLOR] Based on that, and on the lack of recorded migration to the area by other groups, [COLOR="red"][B]scholars believe the Illyrians became the modern Albanians.[/B][/COLOR]

The Albanians today number about five million. Three and a half million live within Albania, another 1.7 million in the adjacent Kosovo region of Serbia, [COLOR="red"][B]and half a million in the new state known as the "Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia."[/B][/COLOR] Historically most Albanians have been Muslim since the time of the Ottoman conquest, with Eastern Orthodox and smaller Catholic minorities. The Kosovo region is a good example of competing historical claims to Balkan lands. Kosovo is a region of great cultural significance for Serbia, the site of important medieval events. [COLOR="red"][B]At the same time, it has a majority Albanian population today, and the Illyrian evidence says that proto-Albanians were there long before the Serbs. [/B][/COLOR]Both nations claim it. In cases like this, scholarship is mixed with nationalist politics: that is why controversy accompanies history here.

[url]http://staff.lib.msu.edu/sowards/balkan/lecture1.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Illyrians peoples in a compact manner zones of Western Macedonia. Historical sources recorded many Illyrian tribes that appeared in this region we are talking about:

-Dardanians
-Penestians
- Dassaretians
- Lyncestians

George S. 08-20-2010 06:31 PM

Epirot when did they start using the name Albania,what does the name mean?Also why did they stop calling themselves illyrian & call theselves Albanian.Also what's the connection of Albania With the one that's called Albania in Asia??thanks for your input.

Sovius 08-20-2010 10:57 PM

Epirot,
You still havent provided any real evidence to support your views. Youre just regurgitating beliefs. This latest barrage of idiocy is still simply a summarization of one particular school of thought regarding the history of the region during the 20th Century. Take a look at what this guy wrote about the people he refers to as The Greeks. Its like the 19th Century never even happened. These assumptions and pretentious associations will forever stand in contradiction to the biological evidence that now eclipses these outdated ramblings.

Its been almost 10 years now that the P37.2 Marker that Albanians carry was first determined to have ultimately descended from the ancestors of Modern Croatian and Bosnian populations. Look up some overviews of STR Diversity. What this means is that some Modern Albanians have biological ties to the ancient populations of the region by virtue of assimilation. If your genetic profile is defined by this marker then one of your ancestors must have gotten drafted or dove right into a new colonial presence.

The amalgamated ethnogenisis of European Albanians after the Ancient Period is actually quite interesting. It created a very unique language and Albanians obviously have their rightful place in European history, just not the historical legacy in a collective cultural sense you erroneously believe you carry. Its the 21st Century, time to move on.

Heres something to ponder. I believe Caucasian Albania is in very close proximity to the source region of the G Haplogroup. Would this not mean that there are very few true Albanians left in Albania, if any at all?

Epirot 08-21-2010 05:58 AM

George S. & Sovius - There is no valid proof to establish whatever link between two Albanias! It just a coincidence. Quite simple. This obsolete hypothesis has re-born only after 2000 when Greek and Serbian propaganda invaded internet.

[IMG]http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/static/temp/articles/article1375944-3-1282388562812/article1375944-3-001.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE][url]http://newspapers.nla.gov.au/static/temp/articles/article1375944-3-1282388562812/article1375944-3-002.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
The Brisbane Courier (Qld. : 1864-1933), Wednesday 23 October 1878, page 3

[QUOTE]The inhabitants, estimated at about a million, form a peculiar people, the Albanians or Arnauts; they call themselves Skyptears. They are descendants of the ancient Illyrians…[COLOR="Blue"][B]and not to be confounded with the Albani that live on the Caspian Sea”[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

It cannot be more clearer than that!

Sovius 08-21-2010 09:33 AM

[B]They are descendants of the ancient Illyrians.[/B]

This is a statement expressing an unsupported belief that was written during Western Europes expansionist period. It is not knowledge nor does it qualify as evidence. Have you, perhaps, suffered from a recent blow to the head? How many fingers am I holding up?

Epirot 08-21-2010 10:50 AM

[QUOTE=Sovius;67861][B]“They are descendants of the ancient Illyrians.”[/B]

This is a statement expressing an unsupported belief that was written during Western Europe’s expansionist period. It is not knowledge nor does it qualify as evidence. Have you, perhaps, suffered from a recent blow to the head? How many fingers am I holding up?[/QUOTE]

Solvios cut the tricks on :nono:
It is useless to disqualify Illyrian theory only because was well-established during European expansion of XIX century. Nonetheless, such theory dated back into Byzantine times.

Sovius 08-21-2010 01:42 PM

Albanoi was a Roman Period exonym for an Illyrian people. That means that there was a group of people who came to be referred to as Albanians, not there was a group of Albanians who came to be written about by Roman Period chroniclers. Youre incorrectly associating a contemporary term with an Ancient Period term and what each term meant or continues to mean. Caucasians and other groups of people who were allied with the Ottomans may have moved to Albania and, thus, came to be referred to as Albanians, but that did not make them Illyrians or Albanians, really, not even Scottish. The Albanoi were not Albanian in the sense that you would like to believe.

It looks like Modern Albanians arent Albanian, either; they are now simply referred to as Albanians. Im not exactly sure what that means, but there must be some way of making sense of it, nonetheless.

Epirot 08-21-2010 02:47 PM

[QUOTE=Sovius;67873]Albanoi was a Roman Period exonym for an Illyrian people. That means that there was a group of people who came to be referred to as Albanians, not there was a group of Albanians who came to be written about by Roman Period chroniclers. You’re incorrectly associating a contemporary term with an Ancient Period term and what each term meant or continues to mean. Caucasians and other groups of people who were allied with the Ottomans may have moved to Albania and, thus, came to be referred to as Albanians, but that did not make them Illyrians or Albanians, really, not even Scottish. The Albanoi were not Albanian in the sense that you would like to believe.

It looks like Modern Albanians aren’t Albanian, either; they are now simply referred to as Albanians. I’m not exactly sure what that means, but there must be some way of making sense of it, nonetheless.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]You’re incorrectly associating a contemporary term with an Ancient Period term and what each term meant or continues to mean. [/QUOTE]

Albanians do not base their claim of being Illyrian only in the similarity of name. Our Illyrian lineage is terminated by the combination of many factors like: language (a considerable number of Illyrian can be explained through Albanian), territory (Albanians inhabit almost the same territories as Southern Illyrians), genetics (many genetic studies have indicate autochthony of Albanians), culture (our culture bears many Illyrian and Pelasgic signs), etc.

[QUOTE]Caucasians and other groups of people who were allied with the Ottomans may have moved to Albania and, thus, came to be referred to as Albanians[/QUOTE]

You keep yapping about Caucasians while till now you did not offer a single proof to establish any linguistic link between Albanian and any Caucasian language. If Albanians really are descended from Caucasus, then they must be close related to any modern people there!? To which Caucasian people are related Albanians?

[QUOTE][COLOR="Blue"][B]This region should not be confused with modern-day Albania in south-eastern Europe.[/B][/COLOR]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania[/url][/QUOTE]

Epirot 08-21-2010 03:03 PM

I shall present some of my research about any possible relationship between Albanian language and any Caucasian language! The Udi language is considered by most of linguists as the last remnant of a language once spoken in Caucasian Albania.

Linguists have never thought about any relation between Albanian and Udi. They classified it to be of a totally different stock from Albanian of Balkans:

[QUOTE] Genetic affiliation

[B][COLOR="Red"]Udi belongs to the Southern (or Lezgian)group of the East Caucasian language family.[/COLOR][/B] [B]It can be regarded as a marginal Lezgian language stemming from a Proto-Lezgian dialect that became separated from the central ‘Samur’ branch quite early (1500 BC ?). It can be assumed that the Proto-Lezgian ‘urheimat’ was located in Northern Azerbaijan [/B](roughly speaking in the region between the Kura and Alazani rivers). Archi, another marginal language, was the first dialect to leave this continuum, lateron followed by what then became the Samur languages (Eastern Samur: Lezgi proper, Tabasaran, and Aghul), Western Samur (Rutul, Tskahur), Southern Samur (now in the Shah-Dagh mountains) (Kryts and Budukh). The speakers of Early Udi obviously stayed in the southern and eastern parts of the Proto-Lezgian urheimat. The so-called ‘tenth’ Lezgian language, namely Khinalug (in the Shah-Dagh mountains) probably emerged from contact of a Proto-Lezgian dialect with another yet unidentified East Caucasian language (or vice versa). Udi shares some important isoglosses with the Western Samur language Tsakhur. There are no significant isoglosses with languages outside the Lezgian branch of East Caucasian (Nakh, Awaro-Andian, Tsezian, Lak, or Dargwa).

[url]http://www.lrz.de/~wschulze/udinhalt.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

If we want to establish ties between two language, we have to start from basic vocabularies of both languages. Let begin with the numerical system:

In Udi:

[QUOTE]The basic ordinals (1-10) are as follows:

1 sa
2 p’a?
3 xib - xe.b - xe.?b
4 bip’
5 qo
6 u?q
7 vu?g/ - vug/
8 mu?g/ - mug/
9 vui
10 vic’

[url]http://www.lrz.de/~wschulze/morph5.htm#numer[/url][/QUOTE]

Albanian

[QUOTE]

1. Nj
2. Dy
3. Tre
4. Katr
5. Pes
6. Gjasht
7.Shtat
8. Tet
9. Nnt
10. Dhjet[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Numbers from 11 to 19 are formed by adding -(e)c’c’e to the first decade which is derived from vic’ ‘ten’ (an opaque element -e is added). The numerals of the first decade may experience slight (in parts idiosyncratic) modifications (especially in allegro speech):

11 sac’c’e
12 p’a?c’c’e
13 xibe’c’ce
14 bip’ec’c’e
15 qoc’c’e
16 u?qec’c’e
17 vu?g/ec’c’e
18 mu ?g/ec’c’e
19 vuic’c’e - vuiec’c’e

[url]http://www.lrz.de/~wschulze/morph5.htm#numer[/url][/QUOTE]

In contrast, in Albanian numbers from 11 to 19 aren't formed by adding such suffixes.

[QUOTE]The hundreds are based on bac/ ‘hundert’:

100 (sa)bac/
200 p’a?bac/
300 xibbac/
400 bip’bac/ - bip’p’ac/
500 uqbac/
600 qo?bac/
700 vu?g/bac/
800 mu ?g/bac/
900 vuibac/
1000 hazar

[/QUOTE]

The hundreds in Albanian are based on 'qind'/ 'hundred'

George S. 08-21-2010 04:13 PM

Sovius regarding the illyrians Arguments against Illyrian origin:
The theory of an Illyrian origin of the Albanians is challenged on linguistic grounds.
According to linguist V. Georgiev, the theory of an Illyrian origin for the Albanians is weakened by a lack of any Albanian names before the 12th century and the relative absence of Greek influence that would surely be present if the Albanians inhabited their homeland continuously since ancient times The number of Greek words borrowed in Albania is small; if the Albanians originated near modern-day Albania, there should be more.
According to Georgiev, although some Albanian toponyms descend from Illyrian, Illyrian toponyms from antiquity have not changed according to the usual phonetic laws applying to the evolution of Albanian. Furthermore, placenames can be a special case and the Albanian language more generally has not been proven to be of Illyrian stock.
Many linguists have tried to link Albanian with Illyrian, but without clear results.[Albanian belongs to the satem group within Indo-European language tree, while there is a debate weather Illyrian was centum or satem. On the other hand, Dacian and Thracian] seem to belong to satem.
There is a lack of clear archaeological evidence for a continuous settlement of an Albanian-speaking population since Illyrian times. For example, while Albanians scholars maintain that the Komani-Kruja burial sites support the Illyrian-Albanian continuity theory, most scholars reject this and consider that the remains indicate a population of Romanized Illyrians who spoke a Romance language. Recently, some Albanian archeologists have also been moving away from describing the Komani-Kruja culture as a proto-Albanian culture.
The Illyrians as a people went extinct, so did their languages by the 6th century.Today, almost nothing of it survives except for names. Ancient Illyrians were subject to varying degrees of Celticization, Hellenization,Romanization and later Slavicisation.
part from the linguistic theory that Albanian is more akin to eastern Romance (i.e. Dacian substrate) than western Roman (with Illyrian substrate- such as Dalmatian), Georgiev also notes that marine words in Albanian are borrowed from other languages, suggesting that Albanians were not originally a coastal people (as the Illyrians were). The scarcity of Greek loan words also supports a Dacian theory - if Albanians originated in the region of Illyria there would surely be a heavy Greek influence.
study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age.[95] This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 32004100 years, from the Bronze Age, belonging to some cultures such as Tei, Monteoru and Noua were found in graves from some necropoles SE of Romania, namely in Zimnicea, Smeeni, Candesti, Cioinagi-Balintesti, Gradistea-Coslogeni and Sultana-Malu Rosu; and the human fossil bones and teeth of 27 individuals from the early Iron Age, dating from the 10th to 7th century B.C. from the Hallstatt Era (the Babadag Culture), were found extremely SE of Romania near the Black Sea coast, in some settlements from Dobrogea, namely: Jurilovca, Satu Nou, Babadag, Niculitel and Enisala-Palanca.[95] After comparing this material with the present-day European population, the authors concluded:
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).[95]

Sovius 08-22-2010 12:22 AM

[QUOTE]you did not offer a single proof to establish any linguistic link between Albanian and any Caucasian language.[/QUOTE]


Yes I did. Re-examine the evidence that I previously provided for your benefit. Youre simply avoiding facts which cannot be blurred by assumptions that have been passed down as accepted truths. There is a difference between an Indo-European language and a language or group of languages that came to be Indo-Europeanized and blended together over time. Albanian is a language isolate, the product of many different languages (including Illyrian). Sharing a few commonalities with another people is not the same thing as actually being that other people.


Regarding your comparisons, explain to me how this is not evidence that one set of numerical terms was not simply replaced by another, albeit, corrupted set of terms due to re-settlement. Take some time to study the symmetry of the Croatian numbering system and then take a look beyond the Danube. Your numbers indicate an intrusive presence. Your 1 through 10 is loosely based on another peoples way of communicating the same values.

Soldier of Macedon 08-22-2010 04:05 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]It is useless to disqualify Illyrian theory only because was well-established during European expansion of XIX century. Nonetheless, such theory dated back into Byzantine times.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, you have made the same claim several times, but you are yet to once corroborate it.
[QUOTE]Our Illyrian lineage is terminated by the combination of many factors like: language (a considerable number of Illyrian can be explained through Albanian), territory (Albanians inhabit almost the same territories as Southern Illyrians), genetics (many genetic studies have indicate autochthony of Albanians), culture (our culture bears many Illyrian and Pelasgic signs), etc.[/QUOTE]
A 'considerable' number of words? Pelasgian culture? No corroboration. Can you notice the developing trend?
[QUOTE]The hundreds in Albanian are based on 'qind'/ 'hundred'[/QUOTE]
How is 'q' pronounced in Albanian when the word 'qind' is said?

Epirot 08-22-2010 04:44 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67900]

How is 'q' pronounced in Albanian when the word 'qind' is said?[/QUOTE]

'Q' in Albanian is pronounced like 'ch' in English.

Bratot 08-25-2010 02:16 AM

fire - zjarr - јара (Јарило, слов. бог) топлина
grudge - inat - инат
spark plug - kandel - кандило (свеќица модерно)
shore - breg - брег
boat - bark - арка
wave - val - вал
wood - dru - др`о / дрво
father - at - тате (старослов. ата)
mother - мама - мама
you - ti - ти
carpet shoe - papue - папуча (којзнае чив е)
fog - mjegull - магла
hole - grop - рупа
drink - pi / pije - пи / пие
window - parvaz - превез
barn - stall - штала
plough - plug - плуг
water - vadis - вода
come on - hajde - ајде
cattle - gjedh - гоедо
garden - bahe - бавча
drunkard - pijanec - пијаница
chubby - buko - буцко
meat - mish - месо
root - rrnj - корење

makedonin 08-25-2010 02:47 AM

[QUOTE]mother - мама - мама
water - vadis - вода[/QUOTE]

I don't know if you compare Albanian with Slavic or Macedonian. But in this case I don't think those words corespond to each other.

Albanian water> uj and mother > nn. I haven't heard Albanian to this day that says mama or vadis, although it is possible who knows.

Interesting word would be:
mother-in-law vjehrr (vjehrra) in Macedonian svekrva.

Soldier of Macedon 10-22-2010 01:18 AM

Onur, are you able to get your hands Celebi's works relating to the Balkans?

Onur 10-22-2010 09:49 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;74898]Onur, are you able to get your hands Celebi's works relating to the Balkans?[/QUOTE]

I only have the part where it relates Albania as PDF file but it`s in Turkish.

Evliya Celebi`s complete Seyahatname is total of 10 volume. Only one volume consists a book of ~950 pages. So it`s close to 10.000 pages in total. I don't have this full set tough.

makedonin 10-22-2010 10:33 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;67374]If you want to concern yourself with Celebi's own opinion then have a think about why he said your people actually do look like Arabs. Or have you missed that?[/QUOTE]

I have met Lebaneses whom I thought to be Albanians. The face features are extraordinary similar. Interestingly enough one of them told me that he was usually asked on the streets something in a strange language. Afterwards he was informed that he was mistaken for an Albanian.

Ain't that odd!

Napoleon 01-13-2011 11:42 AM

The Qeleshe...the 'traditional' Albanian hat
 
[IMG]http://www.spiegel.de/img/0,1020,948727,00.jpg[/IMG]

Above is an example of a 'Qeleshe', also referred as being a 'traditional' Albanian hat. Wikipedia and other dubious sources even go as far as stating the the Qeleshe originates from the ancient Illyrians. But...somebody forgot to tell all these propagandists that the Qeleshe is also a traditional hat of the various peoples of the Caucaus mountain region. Below is a picture of a typical Khalaj Turk peasant from northern Iran.

[IMG]http://i30.tinypic.com/m7w2og.jpg[/IMG]

Soldier of Macedon 01-13-2011 05:40 PM

Well, well, well.......

Soldier of Macedon 01-13-2011 06:08 PM

The word 'qeleshe' in Albanian is pronounced 'cheleshe' - very similar to the Macedonian (and Slavic) word for 'forehead', which is 'chelo'. The Albanian word for 'forehead' is 'balle'. Makes you wonder, doesn't it......

Napoleon 01-13-2011 07:04 PM

I wonder how long it takes before the hat is also 'traditionally' Greek?

Makedonetz 01-13-2011 07:20 PM

[img]http://histclo.com/imagef/date/2007/11/RO191s.jpg[/img]

[img]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3125/2894153538_bffd14371e.jpg[/img]

[img]http://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/52462263.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=45B0EB3381F7834D0FBE06F3DB2FE228789E33D13F55C7F94362EAF347BE4F4F[/img]

Now i see why greece wants to claim our Macedonian as their history....their history are a bunch of mountain goats with nothing!

Risto the Great 01-13-2011 07:25 PM

My goodness. What interesting observations. Thanks Napoleon and SoM

Soldier of Macedon 01-13-2011 07:28 PM

[QUOTE="Makedonetz"]Now i see why greece wants to claim our Macedonian as their history....their history are a bunch of mountain goats with nothing![/QUOTE]
Greece's history is more than just a bunch of mountain goats, try and apply some balance in your arguments.

Makedonetz 01-13-2011 09:34 PM

my apologies SoM i forgot the Minotaur and Pan, Poseidon, Asiris, Hera, Hestia, Themis, Dioscuri

Onur 01-13-2011 09:35 PM

[QUOTE=Napoleon;85962]Below is a picture of a typical Khalaj Turk peasant from northern Iran.
[/QUOTE]

Napoleon, your avatar is so cool. Siamese with a fez :lol:


Btw, thnx for msg cuz i learned another Turkic people cuz i didn't even hear these Khalaj people b4. Turks are too many and they are everywhere even i cant keep up with all of em!!!

I checked from the internet and apparently these people are not Azeri Turks even tough they live close to them in northern Iran, close to Turkish border. They are similar with yoruk people in Balkans, the semi-nomadic ones gone to the Balkans in very early stages, like 14-15th century. They probably remained there just b4 today`s border between Iran and Turkey has been drawn. They are alevi-bektashi like yoruks and probably the last nomadic people who only settled after 19th century and apparently they are speaking a very archaic dialect of Turkish according to a research. So, the ones who migrated in to the Balkans from Anatolia at very early times was the cousins of these Khalaj people in northern Iran. This also supports your "hat" theory. Ofc the other cousins of these people who remained in Anatolia already lost their unique dialect among other Turks with common dialect in Turkey.

I found this article written by an Iranian guy;

[QUOTE]The oldest Turkic language is the Khalaj language which is spoken by people of Khalajestan in the west-central part of Iran from the ancient times, one of reasons can be some features such as preservation of word-initial Proto-Turkic *h, and lack of the sound change *d > y which has led to other Turkic languages. An example of these archaisms is present in the word hadaq ("foot"), which has preserved the initial *h and medial *d. The equivalent form in nearby Oghuz dialects is ayaq.

They can be easily distinguished from other people of this region because of their white skins

[IMG]http://img411.imageshack.us/img411/1563/qashqainomad.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/6271/thelobaoymaqlarimiz.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Makedonetz 01-13-2011 09:40 PM

thats interesting blue eyes and fair skin tone.


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