Macedonian Truth Forum

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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Soldier of Macedon 10-15-2009 03:02 AM

You do realise that this guy is trying to propose Albanian as a sort of mother-language to IE don't you? I find some of his suggestions hard to believe. Can you post a couple of them and elaborate a little?

For example, I would like to know where he got 'Mat' for a 'bank, shore or mountain'? I have checked several Albanian dictionaries and there is no 'bank, shore or mountain' listed under this word. The word 'Ma[B]t[/B]' in Albanian basically means to 'measure or gauge', have you ever used this word for anything other than the translation I just cited? In Albanian, the word for 'mountain' is 'Ma[B]l[/B]' and for 'shore' it is 'Breg' (same as Macedonian and other Slavic languages).

Is Vladimir Orel wrong, has he made a play on the words 'Ma[B]t[/B]' and 'Ma[B]l[/B]', or have I overlooked something here? Appreciate your thoughts.


In addition to all of this, even if Albanian does have proto-IE elements, that does not indicate a continued presence in one region, namely, the Balkans.

Bratot 10-15-2009 03:20 PM

The [B]Byzantine sources[/B] indicate that the [U]Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by [/U][B][U]Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut,[/U][/B] fled [B]from Syria[/B] during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, [B]was himself a scion of of Jabal,[/B] [U]the last Ghassanid chieftain.[/U] During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the[U][B] Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya [/B][/U]who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). [COLOR="Blue"][B][U]They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum' [/U][/B][/COLOR]( Al-Sayyid Ahmad bin al-Sayyid Zayni Dahlan, Al-futuhat al-islamiyya ba'ad mudiyi al-futuhat al-nabawiyya, Cairo: Maktaba al-Islami, 1323 H/1905 CE, pp.80-83.).
In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious [U]dark-skinned Morovlachi [/U]from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.
There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

[U][B]After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills [/B][/U]. How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the [B]Crne Arapi (Black Arabs)[/B] of the medieval Hum, [B]Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto [/B]('Amir Abad')(E. Chelebi, Ptepis, Bulgarian tr. And ed. By S. Dimitrov, Sofia; Institut za Balkanstika pri Bulgarskoi Akademii Nauk, 1972, p. 223, Macedonian tr. And ed. By A. Matkowski, Makedoniya vo delata na stanskite patopistzy, Skopje: Misla 1991, p.561.).
Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. [U]If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz[/U]. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

[url]http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/Albchapt.htm[/url]

Risto the Great 10-15-2009 04:51 PM

Yes, the same Arabs that reached Sicily and quite possibly Malta (amongst other places) surely did not leave the fertile lands of Albania untouched?

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 05:12 PM

We cannot ignore the fact that Egyptians were also settled on the coasts of the Morea and Albania by the Ottomans during mutinies and conflicts. I am positive this also had a stinging effect on their demographics. Albanians live in a fantasy world like their cousins in Athens.

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 07:03 PM

This really sickens me.

[url]http://www.tehelka.com/story_main43.asp?filename=Ne241009let_sleeping.asp[/url]

Let Sleeping Saints Lie

Kolkata is fighting the Albanian claim to Mother Teresa’s relics, reports LIPIKA SINHA


THEY ARE CALLING it the world's worst row over a body. Ever since Albanian PM Sali Berisha asked New Delhi for the remains of Mother Teresa to be returned to Albania by the 100th anniversary of her birth in August 2010, Kolkata has been enraged. Berisha has threatened that negotiations for the remains would actually intensify and India will — eventually — have to agree. But Albania is already engaged in a dispute with Macedonia over the national identity of the Mother, who got beatified by the Vatican in 2003 as a first step towards canonisation.

Berisha’s repeated statements have sparked consternation in the city Teresa made her home. Mother Teresa — born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu in Skopje, Macedonia, on Aug 26, 1910, to an ethnic Albanian family — lived in Kolkata for 68 years, caring for the poor and the infirm. After her death on September 5, 1997, she was buried in Mother House, the global headquarters of the Missionaries of Charity (MOC) founded by her, in central Kolkata. Teresa, came to Kolkata in 1929 and founded the Roman Catholic religious order that currently has over 4,500 sisters and is active in 133 countries. Does that make her part of the city's heritage and history? Yes, says Kolkata. No, argues Albania, demanding that the remains of the Nobel laureate be returned to her country of origin.

“I am finding this actually very, very ridiculous. She may have been an Albanian. But she became Mother Teresa because of her work in Kolkata. She came to India, taught at Loreto Convent in Darjeeling and then chose Kolkata as her home and workplace. [B]She lived here and she died here.[/B] Someone needs to respect her memory and let her remains lie here,” Magsaysay Award-winning litterateur Mahasweta Devi told TEHELKA. The moment she heard of the demand, she told her friends to visit the grave in central Kolkata, sign a petition and submit it to the nuns of the Missionaries of Charity. “I also went to see the grave and pay my respects. [B]I will pay my respects here, not in Albania.[/B]” The grave — a three-feet high rectangular tomb in what was earlier a dining room — is a big draw for foreigners as also Indians visiting Kolkata. A nice biblical verse carved on a white marble marker reads: “Love one another as I have loved you”.

There are others who have joined the protest. Bangiya Christiya Pariseba (BCP), the apex body of Christians in West Bengal, has strongly opposed the Albanian prime minister's move. “The Mother took Indian citizenship. So she was an Indian by choice. Nobody can support the Albanian government's stand,” says BCP General Secretary Herod Mullick. He found instant support from the city’s famed filmmaker Mrinal Sen who said he could not understand the sentiments of the Albanian government. “I just do not see any reason why the government in her country of birth should take her remains out of the city. How can we give away a part of our heritage, our history?"

In New Delhi, officials of the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) seem a little perplexed over the crisis and refused comment, except to confirm that Mother Teresa was a naturalised Indian citizen. “We will handle it if an official request is made to India,” said a spokesperson. [B]MEA sources said it was highly unlikely that New Delhi would agree to the Albanian request.[/B] Also playing safe were the nuns of MOC who said they were yet to be notified about the Albanian proposal. “How can we make any comment now?” asked MOC spokesperson Sister Christie. The impasse continues.


From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 42, Dated October 24, 2009

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 07:07 PM

This is an obvious ignorant statement on this filmmakers part;

[QUOTE]He found instant support from the city’s famed filmmaker Mrinal Sen who said he could not understand the sentiments of the Albanian government. “[B]I just do not see any reason why the government in her country of birth[/B] should take her remains out of the city. How can we give away a part of our heritage, our history?"[/QUOTE]

Her birth was in Skopje,,,not Tirana.

Besides this fact I do not appreciate the Albanian government making claims to Mother Teresa. She may have been Albanian or Half Albanian but she felt more Christian than anything. And the Indians feel such a spiritual connection to her that it would be wrong to remove her body from India. I hope Macedonia does not ask for he remains because that is just downright wrong in my opinion. "She lived here and died here" as the Indians said. Albania needs to stop making up myths and needs to get with the program of reality.

Soldier of Macedon 10-16-2009 03:10 AM

She was born in Macedonia of Albanian and possibly Macedonian origins, if anything the Macedonians would have more right to make such a request than Albania. But as TM said, that would be wrong. Macedonia will celebrate her memory because she was born there and that in itself is a significant fact, but she carried out most of her life's work in India, her body belongs there, I am sure that she would have wanted the same thing. Let her rest in peace.

George S. 10-16-2009 04:18 AM

I don't think the indians are going to give her up so easily & she would belong more to the macedonians because she is born in skopje.If anything she belongs to the vatican & her body may have to go to Rome!

Pelister 10-16-2009 07:53 PM

Very interesting.

I always believed that the present day Albanians were settled in the region by the Byzantines, or had arrived there between the 7th and 10th century.

Soldier of Macedon 10-17-2009 01:49 PM

[QUOTE=Bratot;24966]The [B]Byzantine sources[/B] indicate that the [U]Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by [/U][B][U]Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut,[/U][/B] fled [B]from Syria[/B] during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, [B]was himself a scion of of Jabal,[/B] [U]the last Ghassanid chieftain.[/U] During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the[U][B] Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya [/B][/U]who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). [COLOR="Blue"][B][U]They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum' [/U][/B][/COLOR]( Al-Sayyid Ahmad bin al-Sayyid Zayni Dahlan, Al-futuhat al-islamiyya ba'ad mudiyi al-futuhat al-nabawiyya, Cairo: Maktaba al-Islami, 1323 H/1905 CE, pp.80-83.).
In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious [U]dark-skinned Morovlachi [/U]from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.
There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

[U][B]After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills [/B][/U]. How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the [B]Crne Arapi (Black Arabs)[/B] of the medieval Hum, [B]Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto [/B]('Amir Abad')(E. Chelebi, Ptepis, Bulgarian tr. And ed. By S. Dimitrov, Sofia; Institut za Balkanstika pri Bulgarskoi Akademii Nauk, 1972, p. 223, Macedonian tr. And ed. By A. Matkowski, Makedoniya vo delata na stanskite patopistzy, Skopje: Misla 1991, p.561.).
Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. [U]If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz[/U]. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

[url]http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/Albchapt.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks Bratot, good information that goes some way in corroborating a few of Celebi's assertions. I think the main point of contention (if the Arab theory was to be given acceptance) is the timeframes, Celebi and his Albanians may have brought the story of their arrival back a few centuries to conform to the Jabal story and Islamic legend.

Bij 10-17-2009 09:16 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25000]She was born in Macedonia of Albanian and possibly Macedonian origins, if anything the Macedonians would have more right to make such a request than Albania. But as TM said, that would be wrong. Macedonia will celebrate her memory because she was born there and that in itself is a significant fact, but she carried out most of her life's work in India, her body belongs there, I am sure that she would have wanted the same thing. Let her rest in peace.[/QUOTE]

my sentiments exactly!

Soldier of Macedon 10-18-2009 09:59 PM

Macedonian and Albanian - Linguistic Comparison
 
Let us compare standard marine terms between Macedonian and Albanian, and determine their origins. I have included Italian as a section for reasons that will become obvious shortly.

[U]English-Macedonian-Albanian-Italian[/U]

Fish - Riba - [B]Peshk - Pesce[/B]
Sand - Pesok - [B]Rere - Rena[/B]
Water - Voda - Uje - Acqua
River - Reka - [B]Lume - Fiume[/B]
Lake - Ezero - [B]Liquen - Lago[/B]
Sea - More - Deti - Mare
Swim - Pliva - [B]Notoj - Nuoto[/B]

All of the Macedonian words are native and also common in the Slavonic languages, which means that they are not loans from Italian. Albanian, on the other hand, differs substantially, as their current living space has often been under Italian influence, and the similarity of the words between Albanian and Italian would have to mean that they are either of a common origin or one has loaned en masse from the other. As Albanian examples are lacking in Italian, it is rather obvious that Albanian has taken from Italian, and not the other way around.


I will post more examples as they come to mind. I hope some our of Albanian members like Astrit can contribute.

Risto the Great 10-18-2009 10:50 PM

Hi SoM, an interesting exercise.
I would have thought the Venetian language might be more appropriate than Italian as a means of comparison, but most examples do not line up as similar as contemporary Italian.

Bij 10-19-2009 12:57 AM

We borrow from Italian, don't we? I used Macedonian to help learn italian, but they do say the more languages you know, the easier it is to make mental connections between words

for eg, the word 'vetrina' is the same. mould/muvla/mufla, vai/vie


and in turn, italy names its fruit salad after us 'salata di macedone' :)

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 01:59 AM

That's insignificant in comparison, Latin elements are strong in Albanian, very strong, as are some others. Albanian has borrowed a huge amount of loans that have become core and fundamental in the language, the same cannot be said of Macedonian.

Are you of Albanian ancestry?

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 02:01 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;25113]Hi SoM, an interesting exercise.
I would have thought the Venetian language might be more appropriate than Italian as a means of comparison, but most examples do not line up as similar as contemporary Italian.[/QUOTE]
I think that Venetian would probably be found in the more 'traditional' Albanian words where it may be assumed by some that they are native rather than loaned.

Albanian as a language would have received its Slavonic influence from dialects related to Macedonian and those of Serbia and Montenegro, through interaction/settlers, kingdoms and churches. So I will use Macedonian as the reference point unless otherwise required (for example, a word that exists solely in Serbian).

Astrit 10-19-2009 03:34 AM

Albanian: Pellg-puddle


[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25133]That's insignificant in comparison, Latin elements are strong in Albanian, very strong, as are some others. Albanian has borrowed a huge amount of loans that have become core and fundamental in the language, the same cannot be said of Macedonian.

Are you of Albanian ancestry?[/QUOTE]

The language has managed to survive for this long it is a accomplishment I believe considering all the invasion, foreign influence on a relatively small group of people. Most Albanians were once Catholic so Latin influence is to be expected, 1/3 of Albanian consists of Latin loans, another 1/3 is considered Proto-Albanian the rest would fit into the "other" category.

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 07:13 PM

[QUOTE="Astrit"]1/3 of Albanian consists of Latin loans, another 1/3 is considered Proto-Albanian the rest would fit into the "other" category.[/QUOTE]
So then it would be fair to say that today's Albanian vocabulary is more non-Albanian than Albanian?

How much % of Slavonic words in the Albanian language? 20%? 10%? Less? I notice that even words such as 'Besa' have a Slavonic origin, were you aware of this? 'Beseda' is cited in Church Slavonic texts from the 9th century.

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 09:24 PM

Let's look at a Macedonian-Albanian comparison of terms related to kinship, I am using the common words for each example, and a possible relation in other languages. Again, note that all Macedonian words are native and not loaned from other languages. I have separated the comparison into 3 sub-sections to indicate the possibility of native words, Ottoman loans and Latin loans.


[U]English-Macedonian-Albanian-Other[/U]

Father - Tatko - [B]Baba - Baba[/B] (Arabic)
Mother - Majka - [B]Nene - Ane[/B] (Turkish)
Uncle - Chichko - [B]Daje - Dayi[/B] (Turkish)
Aunty - Tetka - [B]Teze/Halle - Teyze/Hala[/B] (Turkish)

Sister - Sestra - [B]Motra - Madre[/B] (Italian for 'mother')
Grandchild - Vnuk - [B]Nip - Nipote [/B](Italian)
Woman - Zhena - [B]Femer - Femina[/B] (Italian)
Child - Dete - [B]Femija - Femina[/B] (Italian for 'woman')

Grandfather - Dedo - Gjysh (Authentic Alb. word?)
Grandmother - Baba - Gjyshe (Authentic Alb. word?)
Man - Mazh - Burre (Authentic Alb. word?)
Brother - Brat - Vella - (Authentic Alb. word?)
Son - Sin - Bir - (Authentic Alb. word?)
Daughter - Kjerka - Bije (Authentic Alb. word?)
Cousin - Bratuched - Kusheri (Authentic Alb. word?)

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 09:58 PM

TM, this is one of your links.

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1957[/url]


It appears to be the same Maniakos that transferred populations from Sicily to Albania in the 11th century.

Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 11:00 PM

Many of the Macedonian or Slavonic loans in Albanian appear to be in relation to verbs. Here is a list of some words that are likely loans:

[U]English-Albanian-Macedonian[/U]

Pledge/Word - Besa - Beseda (OCS)
Oath - Betim - Veti
Oral - Gojor - Govor
Spoke - Rreze - Reche
Custom - Zakon - Zakon (law)
Fun - Zbavites - Zabava

Pick - Zgjedh - Zgodi or Godi
Ready - Gati - Gotov
Queue - Radhe - Red
Record - Shenim - Snima
Delete - Prish - Brishi
Walk - Shetitje - Shetaj
Run - Tirazh - Trcha
Row - Vozit - Vozi (ride)
Kick = Goditje; Godi or Pogodi (pelt)

Male - Mashkull - Mashko

Nothing - Hich - Ich
Stream - Rreke - Reka (river)
Fire - Zjarr - Zhar

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:35 AM

SOM, a more proper way to say father in Albanian would be Ate


[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25168]So then it would be fair to say that today's Albanian vocabulary is more non-Albanian than Albanian?

How much % of Slavonic words in the Albanian language? 20%? 10%? Less? I notice that even words such as 'Besa' have a Slavonic origin, were you aware of this? 'Beseda' is cited in Church Slavonic texts from the 9th century.[/QUOTE]

Yes, most of the Albanian vocabulary is foreign but there is so much more to a language than loan words.

My rough estimates of standard Albanian would be(not 100% accurate):

30-35% Proto-Albanian

35-40% Latin

15-20% Greek

10-15% Slavic

2-3% "Other" (Persian and Turkish mainly)



I believe the word Besa is neither Albanian or Slavonic origin. I remember hearing of an old Besa tribe that was settled around the Eastern Balkans-Western Anatolia. They certainly predate the 9th century.

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:42 AM

It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.


[quote]The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors, the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine.[/quote]

Soldier of Macedon 10-20-2009 01:43 AM

Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:50 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25194]Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.[/QUOTE]

Beseda would at first would seem closer to Biseda in Albanian which simply means conversation but the definitions do not match up.

Soldier of Macedon 10-20-2009 01:54 AM

That's interesting. I must go, but I will respond further later today.

makedonin 10-20-2009 03:25 AM

[QUOTE=Astrit;25193]It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.
[/QUOTE]

That is not what I read down from your quoted text!

[QUOTE=Astrit;25193]

[QUOTE][B]The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. [/B]Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors,[B] the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine. [/B][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word[B] Besen plural Besni[/B] meaning [B]wild, mad[/B] corresponds more to the Thracian [B]Bessoi [/B]pronounce [B]Bessi [/B]cause [B]OI = long I.[/B]

You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating [B]Bessoi [/B]with the Albanian [B]Besoj [/B]meaning to [B]believe[/B].


How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?!

slovenec zrinski 10-20-2009 03:47 AM

beseda means word in the slovenian language.

Astrit 10-20-2009 04:32 AM

[QUOTE=makedonin;25200]That is not what I read down from your quoted text!



If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word[B] Besen plural Besni[/B] meaning [B]wild, mad[/B] corresponds more to the Thracian [B]Bessoi [/B]pronounce [B]Bessi [/B]cause [B]OI = long I.[/B]

You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating [B]Bessoi [/B]with the Albanian [B]Besoj [/B]meaning to [B]believe[/B].


How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?![/QUOTE]

In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known. It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.

makedonin 10-20-2009 04:56 AM

[QUOTE=Astrit;25204]In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known.

It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.[/QUOTE]

Well if you Macedonize Bessoi, you will also become Besoj, but it would mean rages, in plural and dialectical of course. The literal is Besovi for rages.

BUT that is not how it goes.

The whole problem about this is that the word Bessoi is given to us in Greek letters, as [B]Βεσσοι [/B].

The vocalization rule of the characters in the word are as follow:

[B]Β > B
ε>e
σσ> s or sh
οι>long i[/B]

So the word would have been pronounced [B]Besi or Beshi[/B], which is far from Besoj in both, the Macedonian and Albanian case.

Bij 10-20-2009 05:40 AM

No, I am not Albanian. Unless there's something I dont know????????? I've just studied a bit of Italian.

I don't believe Macedonian and Italian are linguistically linked, I just think there are a few words (latin) we've borrowed from them.

and, like i said in my earlier post, they've named their fruit salad after us :)

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h99/KajSiTiBudala/scan0008.jpg[/IMG]

George S. 10-20-2009 08:29 AM

on aspect of latin apparentlyfrom old eutruscan is derived from ancient macedonian.
cest stoi kaj trust latin
ce stoi vo trust macedonian
everything stays in trust english
starri decisis latin
star reshenie macedonian
old decision english

Soldier of Macedon 10-22-2009 04:14 AM

[QUOTE="Astrit"]SOM, a more proper way to say father in Albanian would be Ate[/QUOTE]
Ata also means father in Turkish, in addition to Baba. Same as Albanian. But the first word is interesting because it appears very close to European words such as Tato in Macedonian, Dad in English, etc. Not sure if they are related, but possible, if they are, then there is a case to support that Albanian used it before the Turks.

Astrit, the earliest Albanian writings are from the 15th century, what word did they use for father in that time?
[QUOTE]Beseda would at first would seem closer to Biseda in Albanian which simply means conversation but the definitions do not match up.[/QUOTE]
I still think both come from Slavonic influence. In Church Slavonic Beseda can mean 'conversation, word, talk', while Besa in Albanian means 'pledge, word of honour', can you honestly say they that these words are not related? They seem pretty close to me.

TrueMacedonian 10-30-2009 01:04 AM

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TrueMacedonian 11-22-2009 09:41 PM

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TrueMacedonian 12-24-2009 11:22 AM

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Big Bad Sven 12-24-2009 08:13 PM

I have that book True Macedonian and its a good read, makes me chuckle a few times of the crazy stories the shiptars have come up with through out the years.

You should post up scans of pages 73-76 and page 81 - the talk about the "Ur-Albanian" theory :) It talks about how many western historians thought Albanians came from the Caucasus, and even how many albanian thought so as well :)

Its a fantastic book.

Pelister 12-28-2009 12:16 AM

Interesting comments about the Persian origins of the modern Albanians as described by Evliya Celebi.

TrueMacedonian 01-29-2010 12:14 PM

[B]The animosities have been carved deep. Although this is not a war about "ancient ethnic hatreds," there is nevertheless a long history of antagonism between the Serbs and the Kosovar Albanians. The competing national [U]myths[/U] -- with the Serbs claiming Kosovo as the birthplace of medieval Serbia and the Albanians claiming they are descended from the ancient Illyrians -- are trotted out by each group to bludgeon the other.[/B]

[I]Kosovo's Next Masters[/I] by Chris Hedges, Foreign Affairs Volume 78 No.3

[url]http://www.partitionconflicts.com/partitions/downloads/Chris_hedges_2.pdf[/url]

TrueMacedonian 02-08-2010 11:02 PM

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