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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Carlin 02-03-2013 03:23 PM

George, that Albania is not related to modern day Albanians or ancient Illyrians.

Carlin 02-03-2013 03:54 PM

In one of my earlier posts I touched upon the Norman role in Balkan history, and their influence on Albania.

Here are some additional points worth investigating in greater detail.

1) The Normans: Warrior Knights and Their Castles, By Christopher Gravett, David Nicolle

[Quote]
Many such mercenaries settled in Byzantium and founded long-lasting military families. These would often have held [I]pronoia[/I], the Byzantine equivalent of the western fief. The feudalization of Byzantium may, in fact, have been a legacy, of the days when the Comnenid emperors recruited as many Normans and other westerners as they could find. Among those families founded by 'Franks' were the Raoulii, who were descended from a certain Italo-Norman named Raoul, and the Petraliphae, descended from Pierre d'Aulps. [B]A group of warrior families called the Maniakates, descended from the Normans serving the great Byzantine general Maniakes, settled in Albania[/B].
[/Quote]

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=83yTb7exBMcC&pg=PA64&dq=Normans+Albania&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aMMOUfuCDKWT0QGUm4CgDw&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false[/url]

2) The Italo-Albanian villages of southern Italy, By George Nicholas Nasse

In addition to 'Albania' being of Norman or French (Latin) origin, did the terms 'Arbanon' and 'Arberesh' also have Norman roots?

[Quote]
The term "Arberesh" originated in Albania and is still used by some southern Albanians, although the name "Shqipetar" is becoming popular. [B]The name "Arberesh" is believed to be of Norman origin[/B]. When the Normans arrived in Albania during the thirteenth century [B]they called the region "Arborea"[/B], and referred to the people as forest dwellers.
[/Quote]

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=VjArAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA43&dq=Normans+Albania&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aMMOUfuCDKWT0QGUm4CgDw&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false[/url]

3) The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present, By Edwin E. Jacques

[Quote]
From their base at Durres the Normans soon occupied Albanian territory as far east as the Vardar River. [B]Many Norman families now transferred their residence to Albania.[/B]
[/Quote]

[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA160&dq=Normans+Albania&hl=en&sa=X&ei=aMMOUfuCDKWT0QGUm4CgDw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Normans%20Albania&f=false[/url]

4) I repeat here what I posted already.

The Evolution of Norman Identity, 911-1154, By Nick Webber

[Quote]
[B]The people to whom Albanoi referred were the Normans.[/B]
[/Quote]

Pages 87, 88:
[url]http://books.google.ca/books?id=ltmP5GFRiv8C&pg=PA87&lpg=PA87&dq=Albanoi+Normans&source=bl&ots=18B6-_KYpb&sig=eT2fVBXFDdt_zhN7xpQjIlS1IIE&hl=en&sa=X&ei=uc4OUcf3DOLo0gHVk4CgBA&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Albanoi%20Normans&f=false[/url]

Nexus 02-04-2013 06:17 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin;139218]
There are tons of theories out there. Here is one -
SLAVIC, A BALTICIZED ALBANIAN?
[url]http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm[/url]
[/QUOTE]

lol ... Hey Carlin, you post it, so what's your opinion on that?

George S. 02-04-2013 09:07 PM

so carlin do you think the albanians were slavicised as well.If the slavs went to albania they went everywhere.What is your view on this carlin.Also I read on one of the threads which showed how much slavic or illyrian dna people had albanians had less than 10%.The country that the most illyrian was serbian.Carlin what do you think of that.

The LION will ROAR 11-06-2013 05:01 PM

[B]Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words[/B]
[IMG]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show/Matzinger-Schumacher.JPG[/IMG]
[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words[/url]

Viennese researchers upset traditionally minded Albanians by pouring cold water on the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria.

Deep in the bowels of Vienna University, two Austrian academics are poring over the ancient texts of a far-away people in the Balkans.

Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.

“The way that languages change can be traced,” Schumacher declares, with certainty.

Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists.

The root of the controversy is their hypothesis that Albanian does not originate from the language of the Ancient Illyrians, the people or peoples who inhabited the Balkans in the Greek and Roman era.

According to Classical writers, the Illyrians were a collection of tribes who lived in much of today’s Western Balkans, roughly corresponding to part of former Yugoslavia and modern Albania.

Although Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common, judging from the handful of Illyrian words that archeologists have retrieved, the Albanian link has long been cherished by Albanian nationalists.

The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.

It is popular because it suggests that Albanians descend from an ancient people who populated the Balkans long before the Slavs and whose territory was unfairly stolen by these later incomers.

“You’ll find the doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians everywhere,” Matzinger muses, “from popular to scientific literature and schoolbooks. “There is no discussion about this, it’s a fact. They say, ‘We are Illyrians’ and that’s that,” he adds.

What’s in a name?

The names of many Albanians bear witness to the historic drive to prove the Illyrian link

Not Pandeli Pani. When he was born in Tirana in 1966, midway through the long dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, his father told the local registry office that he wished to name him after his grandfather.

Pani recalls his father’s hard-fought battle not to have to give his son an Illyrian name.

Staff at the civil registry office apparently said that naming the future linguistics professor after his grandfather was not a good idea, as he was dead. They suggested an approved Illyrian name instead.

“But the Illyrians aren’t alive either,” Pani recalls his father as quipping.

Many members of Pani’s generation born in the Sixties did not have such stubborn fathers. Their parents subscribed to the government policy of naming children after names drawn from ancient tombs.

In the eyes of the world, they aimed to cement the linkage between modern Albania and its supposedly ancient past.

“While I was named after my grandfather, keeping up a family tradition, other parents gave their children Illyrian names that I doubt they knew the meaning of,” says Pani, who today teaches at Jena university in Germany.

“But I doubt many parents today would want to name their children ‘Bledar’ or ‘Agron,’ when the first means ‘dead’ and the second ‘arcadian,” he adds.

Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.

“The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.

But while the Illyrian theory no longer commands universal support, it hasn’t lost all its supporters in Albanian academia.

Take Mimoza Kore, linguistics professor at the University of Tirana.

Speaking during a conference in November organised by the Hanns Seidel Foundation, where Pani presented Schumacher’s and Matzinger’s findings, she defended the linkage of Albanian and Illyrian, saying it was not based only on linguistic theory.

“Scholars base this hypothesis also on archeology,” Kore said. Renowned scholars who did not “subscribe blindly to the ideology of the [Hoxha] regime” still supported the idea, she insisted.

One of the key problems in working out the linguistic descendants of the Illyrians is a chronic shortage of sources.

The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.

Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.

The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light.

“One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added.

Bastard tongues:

Linguists say different languages spoken in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite a lack of evidence of a common origin.

This phenomenon of linguistic “areas” is also evident in the Balkans, where such different languages as Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and Romanian all share words and structures.

According to Schumacher, from the Middle Ages onwards, languages throughout the Balkans tended to become more similar to one another, suggesting a high level of linguistic “exchange” between populations in the region.

“A lot of people used a number of languages every day, and this is one way in which languages influence each other,” Schumacher says. “The difficult thing is that this runs counter to nationalist theories,” he adds.

Drawing on genetic terminology, linguists term this process of language exchange language “bastardization”.

Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the phenomenon of language bastardization has taken a new twist, moving in the opposite direction, as each newly formed state acts to shore up its own unique linguistic identity.

Before the common state collapsed, four of the six constituent republics, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro, shared a common language known as Serbo-Croat.

But since declaring independence in 1991, Croatia has consciously highlighted the distinct character of its language, now called “Croatian”.

Bosnian Muslims have made similar efforts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, promoting official use of a codified “Bosniak” language.

Montenegro, which remained in a loose state union with Serbia until 2006, then appeared content not to have its own separate language. But after independence, a new constitution adopted on October 2007 named the official language as Montenegrin.

Similar calls to foster a separate national language have been heard in Kosovo, drawing on the northern Albanian “Gegh” dialect, though none of these initiatives has received official encouragement.

Out of language, an identity:

The study of Balkan languages came of age in the later 19th century as the Ottoman Empire began disintegrating and as intellectuals tasked with creating new nations out of its rubble turned to language to help forge national identities.



According Schumacher, each country in the Balkans forged its own national myth, just as Germany or the US had done earlier, with a view to creating foundations for a shared identity.

“In the late 19th century, language was the only element that everyone could identify with,” says Schumacher.

He described the use of linguistics in national mythology as understandable, considering the context and the time when these countries gained independence.

“It’s not easy to create an identity for Albanians if you just say that they descend from mountains tribes about whom the historians of antiquity wrote nothing,” he notes.

The friction between ideological myth and reality, when it comes to forging national identity, and laying claim to territory, is not unique to Albania.

Schumacher points out that Romanian history books teach that Romanians descend from the Roman legionnaires who guarded the Roman province of Dacia – a questionable theory to which few non-Romanians lend much credence, but which shores up Romania’s claim to Transylvania, a land to which Hungarians historically also lay claim.

“The Romanian language developed somewhere south of the Danube, but Romanians don’t want to admit that because the Hungarians can claim that they have been there before,” notes Schumacher.

“None of them is older or younger,” says Schumacher. “Languages are like a bacterium that splits up in two and than splits up in two again and when you have 32 bacteria in the end, they are all the same,” he added.

The two Austrian linguists say that within European academia, Albanian is one of the most neglected languages, which provides an opportunity to conduct pioneering work.

Although the extant texts have been known for a long time, “they hardly ever been looked at properly”, Schumacher says. “They were mostly read by scholars of Albanian in order to find, whatever they wanted to find,” he adds

[B]First written words in Albanian[/B]

The first written record of Albanian is a baptismal formula written in 1462 by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli. The first book in Albanian, a missal, was written in 1554 by Gjon Buzuku, a Catholic priest from the Shkodra region.

Pjeter Budi, Archbishop of Sape, also translated and adapted several Italian texts to Albanian in the same period.

Schumacher and Matzinger are concentrating their scholarship mostly on the work of Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop of Prizren, who wrote half-a-century later. He is considered the most interesting Albanian early writer and the “father” of Albanian prose.

Bogdani’s most famous work, The Story of Adam and Eve, his account of the first part of the Bible, is written in both Albanian and Italian. Matzinger says that when Bogdani published the book he was under some pressure from the Inquisition. As the Inquisition did not know Albanian, and were not sure what he wrote, they forced him to make an Italian translation, which is published in the left column of the book.

“That is most useful because it means that no sentence in the book [in Albanian] is incomprehensible,” Matzinger says.

Although numerous texts by Bogdani, Budi and some others survive, the variety of authors, mainly Catholic clerics, is small. “It would be interesting if we had a bigger variety of authors, though we’re grateful enough for what we do have,” Schumacher says.

The LION will ROAR 11-06-2013 05:06 PM

[IMG]https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/1377369_435828913194984_1047362712_n.jpg[/IMG]

Еве што може да се прочита за зборот „Албанец“ во францускиот речник од 19 век. Посебно интересен е почетниот дел, каде се вели дека Албанците се од видот на славјанските народи, малку измешани со грчкиот народ.

Интересно е што денешниве „Албанци“ никако не се совпаѓаат со описот со старите документи.

Ниту Г од грчко и славјанско, напротив, според сите модерни јазични анализи и плус според записите од 16 век па нагоре во кои е забележан нивниот јазик, може да се заклучи дека станува збор за јазик од Азија, кој се развивал како изолиран во латинската и славјанската зона на влијание. Тоа го тврдеше и албанскиот академик Каплан Ресули, а тоа го тврдат и лингвисти од Австрија :

[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words[/url]

Исто така во странсклите речници и записи често се среќава дека под зборот „Албанез“ често се мисли на воен наемник, т.е. зборот „Албанез“ се користи за опис општествен слој на население, а не за опис на етничка група.

По се изгледа дека Шиптариве си го национализирале терминот „Аллбанез и Албанија“ за да може да си присвојат и дел од средновековната историја.

Soldier of Macedon 11-16-2013 11:50 PM

[QUOTE=The LION will ROAR;146991][B]Austrian Scholars Leave Albania Lost for Words[/B]
[IMG]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show/Matzinger-Schumacher.JPG[/IMG]
[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/austrian-scholars-leave-albania-lost-for-words[/url]

Viennese researchers upset traditionally minded Albanians by pouring cold water on the theory that the Albanian language has its roots in Ancient Illyria.

Deep in the bowels of Vienna University, two Austrian academics are poring over the ancient texts of a far-away people in the Balkans.

Like a couple of detectives searching for clues, Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger are out to reconstruct the origins of Albanian - a language whose history and development has received remarkably little attention outside the world of Albanian scholars.

“The way that languages change can be traced,” Schumacher declares, with certainty.

Although the two men are simply studying 17th and 18th-century Albanian texts in order to compile a lexicon of verbs, their innocent-sounding work has stirred hot debate among Albanian linguists.

The root of the controversy is their hypothesis that Albanian does not originate from the language of the Ancient Illyrians, the people or peoples who inhabited the Balkans in the Greek and Roman era.

According to Classical writers, the Illyrians were a collection of tribes who lived in much of today’s Western Balkans, roughly corresponding to part of former Yugoslavia and modern Albania.

Although Albanian and Illyrian have little or nothing in common, judging from the handful of Illyrian words that archeologists have retrieved, the Albanian link has long been cherished by Albanian nationalists.

The theory is still taught to all Albanians, from primary school through to university.

It is popular because it suggests that Albanians descend from an ancient people who populated the Balkans long before the Slavs and whose territory was unfairly stolen by these later incomers.

“You’ll find the doctrine about the Illyrian origin of Albanians everywhere,” Matzinger muses, “from popular to scientific literature and schoolbooks. “There is no discussion about this, it’s a fact. They say, ‘We are Illyrians’ and that’s that,” he adds.

What’s in a name?

The names of many Albanians bear witness to the historic drive to prove the Illyrian link

Not Pandeli Pani. When he was born in Tirana in 1966, midway through the long dictatorship of Enver Hoxha, his father told the local registry office that he wished to name him after his grandfather.

Pani recalls his father’s hard-fought battle not to have to give his son an Illyrian name.

Staff at the civil registry office apparently said that naming the future linguistics professor after his grandfather was not a good idea, as he was dead. They suggested an approved Illyrian name instead.

“But the Illyrians aren’t alive either,” Pani recalls his father as quipping.

Many members of Pani’s generation born in the Sixties did not have such stubborn fathers. Their parents subscribed to the government policy of naming children after names drawn from ancient tombs.

In the eyes of the world, they aimed to cement the linkage between modern Albania and its supposedly ancient past.

“While I was named after my grandfather, keeping up a family tradition, other parents gave their children Illyrian names that I doubt they knew the meaning of,” says Pani, who today teaches at Jena university in Germany.

“But I doubt many parents today would want to name their children ‘Bledar’ or ‘Agron,’ when the first means ‘dead’ and the second ‘arcadian,” he adds.

Pani says that despite the Hoxha regime’s efforts to burn the doctrine of the Albanians’ Illyrian origins into the nation’s consciousness, the theory has become increasingly anachronistic.

“The political pressure in which Albania’s scientific community worked after the communist took over, made it difficult to deal with flaws with the doctrine of the Illyrian origin,” he said.

But while the Illyrian theory no longer commands universal support, it hasn’t lost all its supporters in Albanian academia.

Take Mimoza Kore, linguistics professor at the University of Tirana.

Speaking during a conference in November organised by the Hanns Seidel Foundation, where Pani presented Schumacher’s and Matzinger’s findings, she defended the linkage of Albanian and Illyrian, saying it was not based only on linguistic theory.

“Scholars base this hypothesis also on archeology,” Kore said. Renowned scholars who did not “subscribe blindly to the ideology of the [Hoxha] regime” still supported the idea, she insisted.

One of the key problems in working out the linguistic descendants of the Illyrians is a chronic shortage of sources.

The Illyrians appears to have been unlettered, so information on their language and culture is highly fragmentary and mostly derived from external sources, Greek or Roman.

Matzinger points put that when the few surviving fragments of Illyrian and Albanian are compared, they have almost nothing in common.

“The two are opposites and cannot fit together,” he says. “Albanian is not as the same as Illyrian from a linguistic point of view.”

Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.

The language’s broad shape resembles Greek. It appears to have developed lineally until the 15th century, when the first extant text comes to light.

“One thing we know for sure is that a language which, with some justification, we can call Albanian has been around for at least 3,000 years,” Schumacher says. “Even though it was not written down for millennia, Albanian existed as a separate entity,” he added.

Bastard tongues:

Linguists say different languages spoken in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite a lack of evidence of a common origin.

This phenomenon of linguistic “areas” is also evident in the Balkans, where such different languages as Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian and Romanian all share words and structures.

According to Schumacher, from the Middle Ages onwards, languages throughout the Balkans tended to become more similar to one another, suggesting a high level of linguistic “exchange” between populations in the region.

“A lot of people used a number of languages every day, and this is one way in which languages influence each other,” Schumacher says. “The difficult thing is that this runs counter to nationalist theories,” he adds.

Drawing on genetic terminology, linguists term this process of language exchange language “bastardization”.

Following the breakup of Yugoslavia in the 1990s, the phenomenon of language bastardization has taken a new twist, moving in the opposite direction, as each newly formed state acts to shore up its own unique linguistic identity.

Before the common state collapsed, four of the six constituent republics, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro, shared a common language known as Serbo-Croat.

But since declaring independence in 1991, Croatia has consciously highlighted the distinct character of its language, now called “Croatian”.

Bosnian Muslims have made similar efforts in Bosnia and Herzegovina, promoting official use of a codified “Bosniak” language.

Montenegro, which remained in a loose state union with Serbia until 2006, then appeared content not to have its own separate language. But after independence, a new constitution adopted on October 2007 named the official language as Montenegrin.

Similar calls to foster a separate national language have been heard in Kosovo, drawing on the northern Albanian “Gegh” dialect, though none of these initiatives has received official encouragement.

Out of language, an identity:

The study of Balkan languages came of age in the later 19th century as the Ottoman Empire began disintegrating and as intellectuals tasked with creating new nations out of its rubble turned to language to help forge national identities.



According Schumacher, each country in the Balkans forged its own national myth, just as Germany or the US had done earlier, with a view to creating foundations for a shared identity.

“In the late 19th century, language was the only element that everyone could identify with,” says Schumacher.

He described the use of linguistics in national mythology as understandable, considering the context and the time when these countries gained independence.

“It’s not easy to create an identity for Albanians if you just say that they descend from mountains tribes about whom the historians of antiquity wrote nothing,” he notes.

The friction between ideological myth and reality, when it comes to forging national identity, and laying claim to territory, is not unique to Albania.

Schumacher points out that Romanian history books teach that Romanians descend from the Roman legionnaires who guarded the Roman province of Dacia – a questionable theory to which few non-Romanians lend much credence, but which shores up Romania’s claim to Transylvania, a land to which Hungarians historically also lay claim.

“The Romanian language developed somewhere south of the Danube, but Romanians don’t want to admit that because the Hungarians can claim that they have been there before,” notes Schumacher.

“None of them is older or younger,” says Schumacher. “Languages are like a bacterium that splits up in two and than splits up in two again and when you have 32 bacteria in the end, they are all the same,” he added.

The two Austrian linguists say that within European academia, Albanian is one of the most neglected languages, which provides an opportunity to conduct pioneering work.

Although the extant texts have been known for a long time, “they hardly ever been looked at properly”, Schumacher says. “They were mostly read by scholars of Albanian in order to find, whatever they wanted to find,” he adds

[B]First written words in Albanian[/B]

The first written record of Albanian is a baptismal formula written in 1462 by the Archbishop of Durres, Pal Engjelli. The first book in Albanian, a missal, was written in 1554 by Gjon Buzuku, a Catholic priest from the Shkodra region.

Pjeter Budi, Archbishop of Sape, also translated and adapted several Italian texts to Albanian in the same period.

Schumacher and Matzinger are concentrating their scholarship mostly on the work of Pjeter Bogdani, Archbishop of Prizren, who wrote half-a-century later. He is considered the most interesting Albanian early writer and the “father” of Albanian prose.

Bogdani’s most famous work, The Story of Adam and Eve, his account of the first part of the Bible, is written in both Albanian and Italian. Matzinger says that when Bogdani published the book he was under some pressure from the Inquisition. As the Inquisition did not know Albanian, and were not sure what he wrote, they forced him to make an Italian translation, which is published in the left column of the book.

“That is most useful because it means that no sentence in the book [in Albanian] is incomprehensible,” Matzinger says.

Although numerous texts by Bogdani, Budi and some others survive, the variety of authors, mainly Catholic clerics, is small. “It would be interesting if we had a bigger variety of authors, though we’re grateful enough for what we do have,” Schumacher says.[/QUOTE]
Although somewhat vague in certain areas, that is generally a good article and not too far from my own thoughts regarding the origin of Albanian.

George S. 11-17-2013 08:52 AM

ho were those people who arrived from asia around the 7th century .I'm not just talking about slavs.There was a an Albania in the asia minor from where Albanians could have migrated fromWith recent questioning of where the illyrians went (disappeared).Ehere did they go one theory is that they went to Serbia?Recent testing of Albanians has shown they have about 10 percent of Illyrian in them.The same holds in other parts of the Balkans.

Risto the Great 11-17-2013 09:23 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;147138]Although somewhat vague in certain areas, that is generally a good article and not too far from my own thoughts regarding the origin of Albanian.[/QUOTE]


[QUOTE]Schumacher and Matzinger believe Albanian came into existence separately from Illyrian, orginating from the Indo-European family tree during the second millennium BC, somewhere in the northern Balkans.
[/QUOTE]

I would love to know why the northern Balkans was considered the origin.

George S. 11-20-2013 03:03 PM

good point rtg as the Albanian homeland may not be the Balkans as some consider asia minor as its homeland.At one point there was claim in a mto thread that said in effect the Albanians had very little claim on being Illyrian.A smattering of Albanian words doesn't make them Illyrian.You get a mixture of Italian etc words coming through.THe real illyrians apparently were the serbs make of it what you will.

Risto the Great 11-20-2013 05:24 PM

Actually, it is the Croatians who have spoken of links with the Illyrians in the past. Whatever.

George S. 11-20-2013 08:46 PM

I think you're right both Serbian & Croatian can claim to be from Illyrian stock.This was discussed in one of the mto threads.

Toska 11-21-2013 05:08 AM

the Illyrian Movement started in the 15th and was killed off just before yugoslavia, they wanted to call Yugoslavia Illyria in actual fact and in 1816 the Kingdom of Illyria was formed which was Croatia,Slovenia and bit of Austria

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement[/url]
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Illyria_%281816%E2%80%9349%29[/url]

so the Croats have long forgotten about Illyria and dont think they are interested in it, but its lately stirring up issues because the shiptari are doing a Greece and trying to claim the Illyrian heirs but the cros where calling themselves Illyrians and speaking Illirski centuries before the shiptari

George S. 11-21-2013 01:22 PM

yeah it's amazing how quiet it is for croats.Whilst Albanians are ready to take it all.

Soldier of Macedon 12-03-2013 04:56 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;147151]I would love to know why the northern Balkans was considered the origin.[/QUOTE]
It really depends on how one would interpret the Balkans. A narrow definition may limit its northern boundary to the Danube river, however, a broader definition would also include Romania - which reaches as far as the Carpathian mountains. The reason why the northern Balkans has been suggested as their place of origin is because Albanian and Romanian share a number of specific words that are uncommon in other languages. This appears to indicate a certain period in history where the two were living intertwined, quite possibly with another element from where they obtained this apparent substratum. An important point to highlight is that this substratum doesn't connect either language to Illyrian or Thracian. The fact is, the origin of this substratum is unknown as of yet, it could just as easily be that it came from some prominent or obscure 'barbarian' tribe that lingered north of the Danube. But ironically, it is not what can be proved, but rather what can't be proved, which is mainly used by certain linguists and scholars to try to erroneously demonstrate that Albanian and Romanian are the sole heirs of the Illyrian and Thracian languages.

In the below link are several suggested cognates with the Dacian language, which was spoken in what is now Romania. Dacian is closely related to Thracian and has been proposed by some as the source of the substratum words common in both Romanian and Albanian. As can be seen from the list of words in the link, most of the words have cognates in Baltic languages instead.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words[/url]

Carlin 03-21-2016 07:05 PM

The Khurramites were settled in today's Albania.

Source: "Byzantium and Its Army", By Warren Treadgold.
Excerpt from [U]page 32[/U]:

"By 839 Theophilus roused himself to lead an army against the [B]Khurramites[/B], who promptly submitted. They agreed to let their company be divided into fifteen parts, which were incorporated into fifteen different themes and other districts. The fifteen units that received [B]Khurramites[/B] included two new themes, [B]Dyrrhachium in today's Albania[/B] and the Climata in the Crimea..."

Khurramites
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khurramites[/url]

Dyrrhachium (theme)
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dyrrhachium_%28theme%29[/url]

The Theme of Dyrrhachium (Greek: θέμα Δυρραχίου) was a Byzantine military-civilian province (theme) located in modern Albania, covering the Adriatic coast of the country. It was established in the early 9th century and named after its capital, Dyrrhachium (modern Durrës).

Carlin 03-29-2016 08:49 AM

[U]The Kruja-Komani culture [/U]
Most scholars currently do not see the Kruja-Komani culture as an "indigenous Illyrian" culture and they certainly do not see it as an "early Albanian" culture.

1) Florin Curta in his book "Southeastern Europe in the Middle Ages,500-1250" (Cambridge University Press,2006)writes:

page 103:
[...] with the so-called "Komani culture". Long viewed as the archaeological remains of the "first Albanians," the relatively numerous cemeteries of this group of finds point to a different interpretation. First, most of them are in the hinterland of Dyrrachium (present-day Durrës), a city that certainly remained in Byzantine hands throughout the entire period. Second, finds similar to those from burial assemblages turned up in at least two forts (Kruje and Sarda/Shurdhah) that were undoubtedly occupied at the time and controlled from Dyrrachium by the archontes of the city.

pages 104-6:
A number of grave goods found on the sites in Albania and the neighboring countries strongly suggest close contacts with Byzantium, possibly even the presence of speakers of Greek: belt buckles common for the Mediterranean area, both East and West; earrings with perforated pendants showing peacocks on either side of a tree; disc -and cross- brooches; finger-rings with dedicatory inscriptions in Greek. More over, two hoards of Byzantine drinking and washing silver vessels with Greek inscriptions, gold church candlesticks, and silver belt fittings were found in the vicinity of Dyrrachium, at Vrap and Erseke. Like burial assemblages in Istria, those of Albania are often, if not always, associated with stone-lined graves, sometimes with several internment phases and multiple skeletons. This may be, and was indeed interpreted as, an indication that each individual grave may have been used for several members of the same kin group, in itself an indication that the soldiers in the garrisons of forts in northern Albania lived there permanently together with their families. That this was indeed a population of soldiers is shown not only by the relatively large numbers of associated weapons, but also by the relatively large number of cemeteries, especially in Macedonia, located on or close to the main west-east artery across the Balkans, the Via Egnatia. Although this road was long believed to have been completely abandoned during the early Middle Ages, there is evidence that its central segment between Ohrid and Edessa/Vodena was repaired at some point during the eighth century. This is precisely the region with some of the most important cemeteries of the so-called "Komani culture" (Sv. Erazmo, Radolišta, Krušarski Rid, Goren Koyjak, and Viničani). The same is true for the segment of the Via Egnatia running close to the present-day Bulgarian-Greek border in southern Thrace, where a number of cemeteries have been found showing striking parallels with burial assemblages in Macedonia and Albania.

On the other hand, a significant number of artifacts from both female and male burials -dress accessories, weapons, and belt findings- have good analogies in Late Avar graves, as well as in assemblages from the steppes north of the Black Sea. Much like in contemporary Hungary, the mortuary assemblages in Albania display a sharp gender and status differentiation, often expressed through a great wealth of grave goods. Late Avar belt strap ends and mounts are the direct analogies for the belt fittings founds in Vrap and Erseke, which seem to have been the source of inspiration for a wide variety of belt ornaments in Hungary and the neighboring regions. An eight-century source known as the Life of St. Pancratius may give some substance to the Avar connection revealed by these archaeological parallels.

The apocryphal Life of the first bishop of Taormina was written around 700, shortly after the introduction of the thematic organization to Sicily (709/10). [...] Pancratius' mission of conversion is thus set against the background of the first Arab attacks on Sicily, in the late seventh or early eighth centuries. One of Pancratius' converts was a local warlord named Bonifatius. Portrayed as the commander of the Sicilian troops, Bonifatius is said to have led several campaigns against barbarians abroad. At one time, he is described as organizing a seaborne expedition into the regions of Dyrrachium and Athens. Upon returning to Sicily, he was confronted by St. Pancratius, who claimed that his prisoners looked like Christians. Bonifatius assured him they were Avars [...] Through the intermediary of a translator, the prisoners declared that they worshipped fire, water, and their own swords. [...] It is therefore possible to see "Avars" in the population burying their dead in the cemeteries of the so-called "Komani culture" of Albania.

[...] Just how "Avars" could reach the central or western regions of the Balkans is shown in an episode of the second book of the Miracles of St. Demetrius. In c. 680/1, a conflict broke between the qagan of the Avars and a group of rebels led by a Bulgar named Kouber. The rebels were descendants of a group of captives brought to the Avar heartland from the Balkan raids of the early seventh century and settled in the environs of the former city of Sirmium. As a consequence, those following Kouber in rebellion called themselves Sermesianoi.

Curta then continues with the story of the arrival of the Bulgars and Sermesiani in Pelagonia, led by Kouber and Mauros.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kouber[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mauros[/url]

To them we must add the name of the village Vlasi Sremljane ("Vlachs from Sirmium/Srem") near Đakovica that appears in a 14th century Serbian document.

[url]https://www.google.com/search?q=vlasi+sremljane&btnG=Cerca+nei+libri&tbm=bks&tbo=1&hl=it#hl=it&q=din+secolul+al+XIV-lea+a+vlahilor+%E2%80%9Esirmieni%22(Vlasi+Sremljane)%2C+&tbm=bks&undefined=undefined[/url]

So Florin Curta's assessment of the so-called "Kruje-Komani" culture is this:
1) It was populated by soldiers who were ultimately controlled by Byzantine Dyrrachium.
2) They belonged to a larger system of soldiers that were settled along Via Egnatia.
3) The archaeological evidence of the "Kruje-Komani" culture shows an archaeological connection with the Avar world (and there are philological testimonies of the arrival in Albania and Pelagonia of migrants from the Avar world), whose upper echelons enjoyed Byzantine artefacts and possibly had even mastered the Greek language.


Alexandru Madgearu gives his own assessment of the "Kruje-Komani" culture along with those of the Serbian Archaeologist Vladislav Popović Albanian archaeologist Etleva Nallbani and the British archaeologist William Bowden in pages 148-149 of his book "the Wars of the Balkan Peninsula: their medieval origins" (Scarecrow,2008):

As concerns the Komani-Kruje culture, the situation is more complicated than Albanian historians believe. Serbian archaeologist Vladislav Popović supposed that this culture was created by a Roman and urban population, which cannot be identified with the Proto-Albanians. According to him, this culture belonged to the Roman population living along the Via Egnatia. This area remained until the seventh century-eighth centuries under a strong Byzantine influence. The area of this culture is nearly the same as that where Latin was spoken in antiquity (defined on the basis of inscriptions). The region was Romanized. On the other hand, in the same area many present place-names of Latin origin of known. It is therefore possible that the Komani-Kruje culture was the archaeological expression of a Roman, not Proto-Albanian, population.

This theory was of course rejected by the official Albanian archaeologists, but their arguments are not convincing. They cannot explain the large amount of Byzantine and Christian objects in the environment of this culture. A pastoral population like the Albanians was not able to create a culture of Byzantine urban fashion. The assertion that Albanians developed an urban civilization in the early Middle Ages and that they peopled the late Roman fortified settlements is fanciful.
In 2002, the young Albanian archaeologist Etleva Nallbani received from the Sorbonne her PhD for a dissertation entitled "La civilization de Komani de l'antiquitè tardive au haut Moyen Age: etude du mobilier mètallique" (not yet published). The main ideas were summarized in two short studies (one of them published in a Croatian scientific journal). She has abandoned the traditional theory put forward by Albanian archaeology, that the Komani-Kruje culture is Proto-Albanian. Instead, she emphasizes the integration in the Byzantine civilization and the urban roots of this civilization. This new approach is shared by British archaeologist William Bowden, who concludes that the archaeological evidence does not support a single ethnic identification.

So the above scholars have all rejected the connection of the Kruja-Komani culture with the "Proto-Albanians", because of the urban characteristics that the culture displays which cannot have been produced by the pastoralist early Albanians.

William Bowden's assessment of the Kruja-Komani culture and his critique of the Albanian nationalist interpretation is a whole chapter in this book, where he concludes that the "Kruja-Komani" culture is not "indigenous", but has all the trademarks of immigration from further north, and that of course, it cannot be connected with the early Albanians:

[url]http://books.google.it/books?id=HAmc0fBGoxUC&pg=PA59&dq=william+bowden+komani+culture&hl=it&sa=X&ei=YfOmUr3BEK_AygPk0IGADQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=william%20bowden%20komani%20culture&f=false[/url]

I am simply providing note 10 in page 60, where he speaks of possible [B]archaeological malpractice [/B]by the Albanian nationalists during the communist period.

[B]"There is some suggestion, that material recovered from the cemeteries that was perceived as "Slavic" was deliberately suppressed during the communist period, although the extent to which this occurred is impossible to quantify (E. Nallbani pers. comm.)"[/B]

Link:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Koman_culture[/url]

Carlin 06-16-2016 02:55 PM

The name "Arberesh" -

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/NasseTitle_zpset5plz5o.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/NasseTitle_zpset5plz5o.png[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Nasse43Arberesh_zpspr4cklai.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Nasse43Arberesh_zpspr4cklai.png[/IMG][/URL]

tchaiku 01-07-2017 08:20 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;117823]3) [I]Albanians, just like the Mardaites, were initially non-Orthodox Christians.
[/I]

I've read some of the posts above regarding the Albanian language and I think it's ultimately futile to argue one way or the other in terms of origins, because not much can be inferred in such a way. Most languages, through contact with other cultures, undergo various changes over the centuries so they end up with borrowings, etc... Albanian is and remains a separate language.

To return to point 3 and my initial post:

I always found it odd that Albanians appear in the Balkans as non-Orthodox Christians; I will attempt to explain why this poses a problem for those who adhere to the Illyrian hypothesis.

The regions of Albania and Epirus have traditionally been under the jurisdiction of the Constantinople church, and the Roman/Byzantine authorities regarded the inhabitants of these provinces as Orthodox Christians (regardless of what their ethnic background might be). I'm not aware that Western Christians/Catholics exerted any meaningful influence on these territories prior to the (roughly) 1000s but I might be mistaken. Anyway, it seems that no such influence can be found and it would appear plausible to conclude that Illyrians were Christianized (at some point) by Constantinople/Eastern church.

This is where the problem arises. If Illyrians became Orthodox Christians, how come the Albanians were not? If anything, a neutral observer would expect them to remain pagans but this is not the case. The Byzantines regarded them as "heretic" Christians and "half-believers", just like the Mardaites!

If we now trace the history of the settlement of Mardaites in these territories, starting with Epirus, the attitude of the Byzantine authorities starts to make more sense as Mardaites were either Monothelite or Monophysite Christians. These branches of Christianity originated in the Levant.

At best, the influence of the Roman Catholic church started only after 1082, when the Normans captured Durres. After the Normans, Venetians appear on the scene. It was the Roman Catholics who further popularized the term Albania, establishing Regnum Albanae.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Albania[/url]

It was only during these centuries that Latin Christianity was introduced in Albania, and many eventually converted.

Summary:
- Settlement of Mardaites in Epirus, Peloponnese, and other Roman/Byzantine territories by the 9th century. The official authorities regard them as "heretics". Note: no mention of "Albanians" in the Balkans as of yet.
- Expansion of Mardaites into adjacent territories. First appearance of Albanians in the 11th century. They appear as "heretics" or "half-believers" in various documents.
- Use of terms Mardaites/Albanians/Arber etc. for the same ethnic community. "Albanians" ultimately popularized by the Venetians. Conversion of Albanians and/or Mardaites to Latin Christianity.

PS: Demographic expansion and ethnic changes were quite common and frequent in the Balkans, even after the Slavic invasions. Re-settlements of entire peoples and tribes was conducted at will by despots and kings. The Byzantines were no different. If Albanians moving to the north and occupying present day Albania and other territories in such a short time period seems implausible, may I use Vojvodina as an example. After the Battle of Mohacs in 1526 the entire territory of Vojvodina was turned into a "desert". It was uninhabited and modern day historians estimate that 10000 people (tops) of various ethnicities lived in Vojvodina after 1526. Serbs, Hungarians, Germans and others started settling: the current population of Vojvodina is roughly 2 mil.[/QUOTE]


The Albanians first appear in the historical record in Byzantine sources of the 11th century. At this point, they are already fully Christianized. All Albanians [B]were Orthodox Christians[/B] until the middle of the 13th century when the Ghegs converted to Catholicism as a mean to resist the Slavs.[5][6][7]

Leften Stavros Stavrianos (January 2000). The Balkans Since 1453. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. p. 498. ISBN 978-1-85065-551-0. Retrieved 17 July 2013. Religious differences also existed before the coming of the Turks. Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church... Then the Ghegs in the North adopted in order to better resist the pressure of Orthodox Serbs.

Jump up ^ Hugh Chisholm (1910). Encyclopaedia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information. Encyclopaedia Britannica. p. 485. Retrieved 18 July 2013. The Roman Catholic Ghegs appear to liave abandoned the Eastern for the Western Church in the middle of the 13th century

Jump up ^ Ramet, Sabrina P. (1989). Religion and Nationalism in Soviet and East European Politics. Duke University Press. p. 381. ISBN 0-8223-0891-6. Prior to the Turkish conquest, the ghegs (the chief tribal group in northern Albania) had found in Roman Catholicism a means of resisting the Slavs, [B]and though Albanian Orthodoxy remained important among the tosks [/B](the chief tribal group in southern) :)

Carlin 01-07-2017 01:52 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;166367]The Albanians first appear in the historical record in Byzantine sources of the 11th century. At this point, they are already fully Christianized. All Albanians [B]were Orthodox Christians[/B] until the middle of the 13th century when the Ghegs converted to Catholicism as a mean to resist the Slavs.[5][6][7]

Leften Stavros Stavrianos (January 2000). The Balkans Since 1453. C. Hurst & Co. Publishers. p. 498. ISBN 978-1-85065-551-0. Retrieved 17 July 2013. Religious differences also existed before the coming of the Turks. Originally, all Albanians had belonged to the Eastern Orthodox Church... Then the Ghegs in the North adopted in order to better resist the pressure of Orthodox Serbs.

Jump up ^ Hugh Chisholm (1910). Encyclopaedia britannica: a dictionary of arts, sciences, literature and general information. Encyclopaedia Britannica. p. 485. Retrieved 18 July 2013. The Roman Catholic Ghegs appear to liave abandoned the Eastern for the Western Church in the middle of the 13th century

Jump up ^ Ramet, Sabrina P. (1989). Religion and Nationalism in Soviet and East European Politics. Duke University Press. p. 381. ISBN 0-8223-0891-6. Prior to the Turkish conquest, the ghegs (the chief tribal group in northern Albania) had found in Roman Catholicism a means of resisting the Slavs, [B]and though Albanian Orthodoxy remained important among the tosks [/B](the chief tribal group in southern) :)[/QUOTE]

Good day tchkaiku, and thanks for your reply. If all of what you wrote is correct and accurate, then how does one explain the following.

Copy and paste from Wikipedia:
[B]What is possibly the earliest written reference to the Albanians is that to be found in an old Bulgarian text compiled around the beginning of the [U]11th century[/U][/B]. It was discovered in a Serbian manuscript dated 1628 and was first published in 1934 by Radoslav Grujic. This fragment of a legend from the time of Tsar Samuel endeavours, in a catechismal 'question and answer' form, to explain the origins of peoples and languages. It divides the world into seventy-two languages and three religious categories: [B]Orthodox, [U]half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians)[/U] and non-believers[/B]. [B][U]The Albanians find their place among the nations of half-believers[/U][/B]. If the dating of Grujic is accepted, which is based primarily upon the contents of the text as a whole, [U]this would be the earliest written document referring to the Albanians as a people or language group[/U].

Quote:
[I]
It can be seen that there are various languages on earth. Of them, there are five Orthodox languages: Bulgarian, Greek, Syrian, Iberian (Georgian) and Russian. Three of these have Orthodox alphabets: Greek, Bulgarian and Iberian. There are [U]twelve languages of half-believers[/U]: Alamanians, Franks, Magyars (Hungarians), Indians, Jacobites, Armenians, Saxons, Lechs (Poles), [B]Arbanasi (Albanians)[/B], Croatians, Hizi, Germans.[/I]

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians[/url]

This is exactly what I meant by my statement that: "[I]I always found it odd that Albanians appear in the Balkans as non-Orthodox Christians[/I]".

It is a rather interesting piece of [I]evidence[/I] and there may be a couple of possibilities here - but the curious thing is this:

1) This document/quote LUMPS TOGETHER all Albanians into One category of [U]half-believers (i.e. non-Orthodox Christians)[/U], at a time when - allegedly - there were many (most?) Albanians who were Orthodox Christians.

2) It is possible that this document was written and composed later than it is assumed - perhaps at a time after significant portions of Albanians became Roman Catholics. As a result, these half-believer Albanians could have been Catholics, just like in the quote we have Magyars, Germans and others who were Catholics. BUT, in the quote itself we have such nations/groups listed such as the Armenians, Indians, and Jacobites who are [U]non-Orthodox non-Catholic[/U] Christians. [U]The author of the text[/U] clearly put all non-Orthodox Christians into one group of half-believers.

As a result, we have no way of knowing or assuming that these half-believer Albanians were Catholics. We can't make that leap. But we know that the author lumped them into One category of half-believers, which means that they were not Orthodox Christians.

As a result of this, I later on (in further comments I already posted on this forum) made the [I]leap[/I] and connected these HALF-BELIEVER ARBANASI (ALBANIANS) with the medieval MARDAITES who were settled in large numbers in the Balkans, and who were originally HALF-BELIEVER Christians following either Miaphysitism or Monothelitism.

tchaiku 01-07-2017 05:11 PM

Carlin, here are some points.
1)
[B]The DNA[/B] - some hundreds of Albanians have been tested. The result tells us that the majority of Albanians belong to EV-13 40-45% (Balkanic) haplogroup. If they were Levanite or Arabic in origin this would not happen. (Especially Ghegs)

2)
[B]Orthodoxy[/B] - exists among Albanians. The majority of Slavic toponyms are more numerous in south were it was occupied and under control of Greco-Savic territory rather than in North. While the Ghegs are more isolated and thus Catholic. (Tosks came from Ghegs). Considering Orthodoxy and Catholicism being present in Albanians is mostly safe to assume the ''half believer'' refer to Orthodox/Catholic contrast. (?)
3)
Mirditor is not very similar as 'Mardaite'' (in spelling). The word is actually of foreign origin like Greek to ''Hellene'; the actually reference to that word is ''al-Jarājimah''. The word Mirditor is less meaningful than Parisian is to a French or Athenian to a Greek. The root of the word 'Mirditor' is from the location called Miredita; Mire meaning good, Dita meaning day while the person living on that zone is called Mirditor. Mirditor is not and never was a primary reference before Arbereshe/Shqiptar/Albanian.

Soldier of Macedon 01-18-2017 05:39 PM

Albanians have been know to use the term 'shqa' in a pejorative manner against people in the Balkans who speak 'Slavic' languages, particularly their neighbours. They may have borrowed it from Aromanian (Vlach) 'shcljau' or Romanian 'șchiau', ultimately from Latin 'sclavus'. Albanians in Greece use a similar word, 'shkljira', to refer to Greeks. It's been suggested that this term developed a general meaning of 'foreigner', but I am not aware of Albanians using it to refer to Roma, Vlachs and Turks, who also lived near or among them. Albanians apparently started moving into Attica and Morea from the 13th and 14th centuries. I haven't looked into this much further, just wanted to explore the possibility if, when they arrived, some of their new neighbours were initially speaking 'Slavic' languages, hence the reason why they continued to use the term.

Carlin 01-20-2017 06:09 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;166493]Albanians have been know to use the term 'shqa' in a pejorative manner against people in the Balkans who speak 'Slavic' languages, particularly their neighbours. They may have borrowed it from Aromanian (Vlach) 'shcljau' or Romanian 'șchiau', ultimately from Latin 'sclavus'. Albanians in Greece use a similar word, 'shkljira', to refer to Greeks. It's been suggested that this term developed a general meaning of 'foreigner', but I am not aware of Albanians using it to refer to Roma, Vlachs and Turks, who also lived near or among them. Albanians apparently started moving into Attica and Morea from the 13th and 14th centuries. I haven't looked into this much further, just wanted to explore the possibility if, when they arrived, some of their new neighbours were initially speaking 'Slavic' languages, hence the reason why they continued to use the term.[/QUOTE]

It is possible this happened in [B]Epirus[/B]. Apparently, at some point in the middle ages, there were still 'Slavic' speakers there.

Unrelated, but not sure if I ever shared the following.

The position of Albanian by Eric Hamp
[url]http://www.kroraina.com/balkan/ehamp.html[/url]

Carlin 01-21-2017 10:33 PM

(Not endorsing the following fully, simply sharing what I found online. Not sure if this is the right place to put it.)

[I]Nicholas Hammond[/I]

In 1204 the Franks of the Fourth Crusade and the Venetians sacked Constantinople and began to divide up the provinces of the Byzantine Empire among themselves. [B]A period of chaos ensued, during which [U]several small principalities were established[/U] in the southwest Balkans[/B]. The only one which upheld the Greek tradition was that of the Angeli. the rulers of Epirus from 1206 to 1260, and they had to contend with the Albanian principality of Demetrios and Ghin, the Serbian principality of the Nemanja and Uros families, the kingdom of Thessalonica, and the rival Byzantine principality of Nicaea, quite apart from raids delivered from the west on the coast of Epirus. [B]It was in this period that the flow of immigrants from the northwestern area began. It became a flood in the fourteenth century. They went as mercenaries, raiders and migrants. The great majority of them were speakers of Albanian, but others joined the movement.[/B] When they wanted to leave Thessaly and go elsewhere, many others appeared with their wives and children ("multicum uxoribus et filiis") and their combined forces proceeded to wreck other parts of Thessaly. John Cantacuzenus 1.495 described their raids on the west side of the peninsula in 1335: "The Albanoi who inhabit the area of Balagrita [Berat] and Kanina [inland of Valona], being adaptable to change and by nature revolutionary, ravaged and plundered … and oppressed the towns there with their brigandage and open raids".

The Byzantine rulers had recourse to two methods of treating these raiders The Emperor Andronicus III gave land to [B]12,000 Vlach-speaking raiders[/B] who submitted to him in Thessaly. ‘The Great Domestic', John Cantacuzenus, carried out a campaign against the Albanian-speaking tribes in 1335. "As the Albanians inhabited great mountain ranges which were difficult of access and had many retreats and hiding-places, they could not easily be injured by the cavalry." For this reason, light armed infantry and archers were recruited in Asia and took part in the campaign (Cantacuzenus 1.495). Even so the Albanians were not destroyed, for they withdrew into the mountains and beat off their attackers from above. However, the Emperor advanced from Thessaly to Dyrrachium and took spoil to the amount of 300,000 cattle, 5,000 horses and 1,200,000 sheep. But the Albanian raids continued and Acarnania was laid waste, in 1341 the Emperor attacked the offending Albanians "around Pogoniane and Libisda" (Lidizda), i.e. in the central part of northern Epirus; (20) and then in 1355 he campaigned from Thessaly as far south as Aetolia and Acarnania and was killed in action (Cantacuzenus 3.319). These campaigns did not stop the flood. [B]Albanians were serving as mercenaries in the Peloponnese c. 1350, and they and their families were given land there to cultivate.[/B]

[B]In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Aetolia, and established two principalities[/B] under their leaders, John Spatas (shpate in Albanian meaning a sword) and Peter Leosas (lios in Albanian meaning a pockmark), Naupactus fell into their control in 1378. The cities which held out against them, especially loannina and Arta, were ravaged by a series of plagues, and Thomas, the Serbian Despot of loannina, saved himself at first by making marriage alliances with the two Albanian leaders. In the Greek account of the Albanian advance under Peter Leosas we learn that he was accompanied by "Mazarakii and Malakasei of his own race" (Epeirotica 2.220; cf. 222 f.), (21) While Mazaraki is in central Epirus by the river Kalamas, Malakasa is the coastal plain of central Albania farther north and the words ‘of his own race' were used to [B]distinguish the Albanian-speaking Malakasaei from the Vlach-speaking Malakasii[/B]. It is clear that Thomas feared the Albanians above all. Whereas he mutilated the [B]Bulgars[/B] and the [B]Vlachs[/B], he allowed most of his Albanian prisoners to be ransomed. Atrocities were committed no doubt by both sides, and Thomas came to be called [B]Albanitoktonos (Albanian-killer; Epeirotica 2.225)[/B]. In 1380 Thomas brought in the Turks as allies and passed to the offensive, but he did not advance farther than the basin of the upper Kalamas, where he took Vela (by Vrondismeni), Boursina (Vrousina), and Kretzounista (Dhespotikon) (21). The Albanians and in particular the Mazarakii of the Kalamas valley held firm against him. In 1385 he was assassinated by some of his own bodyguards (Epeirotica 2.230).

[B]Other bands of Albanians and Vlachs invaded the Catalan principality of Boeotia and Attica, and a great many Albanians settled there as peasant-farmers in 1368 and later years. Around the end of that century a migrating group of 10,000 Albanians with their families and their animals came from pastures in central Greece to the Isthmus of Corinth and sought entry to the Peloponnese. [/B]This was granted by Theodore, who settled them within his own domains, where he used them as tough soldiers and "expert cultivators" (Manuel II, Funeral Speech, p. 40). [B]Albanians and others were invited in 1402 to settle on uncultivated but cultivable lands in Euboea[/B], if they were willing to serve as soldiers in defence of the island and work the soil. The proclamation of the Venetian rulers was extended to "quilibet Albanensis vel alia gens qui non sint no&tri subditi, qui cum equis volent venire et venient ad habitandum’ (23). [B]By the middle of the fifteenth century the Albanians in the Peloponnese were so numerous[/B] that they tried to seize control, led first by one Peter the Lame, and then by a Greek, a member of the Cantacuzenus family, but their attempt failed.

[B]The penetration of the Greek mainland which we have described occurred during the hundred or more years after 1325.[/B] The opportunity arose through the decline and disruption of the Byzantine Empire and the wars which followed between the various small principalities of Greeks, Serbs, Catalans, Venetians and others. One of the pressures which set the Albanians and others in motion came from the expanding power of the Serbs which reached its peak under the rule of Stephen Dusan (1331-1355), who subjugated Epirus and Acarnania. [B]A contributory factor seems to have been [U]overpopulation[/U] among the Albanians (24) - always a prolific people and [U]underpopulation[/U] in mainland Greece as a result of internal collapse and foreign intervention. The strongest single group of invaders was that of the Vlachs which pressed down into Thessaly and opened the way there for the Albanians.[/B] But the most numerous by far were the Albanian-speakers, and their main line of invasion and penetration was down the western side of northern and central Greece.

[B]Once in possession of most of north-western Greece, the Albanians opened the way for other immigrants. Offshoots of Albanians and Vlachs entered Boeotia, Attica and Euboea, having probably come from summer pastures on Mt Parnassus and from southern Aetolia; and other groups of Albanians forced an entry or gained an invitation of entry into the Peloponnese, sometimes crossing over the western part of the Gulf of Corinth and sometimes coming to the Isthmus of Corinth. [/B]When 10,000 Albanians came to the Isthmus of Corinth, they brought not only their families but also their flocks of animals. The Albanians in the Peloponnese took their herds in the winter to the coastal plain of Elis, “which was open to the sun, near the sea, had good grazing and was deserted by men (i.e. by the Greeks)"; and these herds consisted of "very many herds of horses, very many of cattle, most of sheep and most of pig"(29). Such Albanians as these—and they were evidently the majority - were described by Laonicus Chalcocondylas (406) as follows: "This race are all nomads, and do not make their stay for long in any one place" they were, then, transhumant pastoralists without fixed abodes or villages. But there were many others who wanted to cultivate the land and were given land by the Venetians and the Greeks, because they were such hard-working and expert cultivators. When Manuel Cantacuzenus, Despot of Mistra in the Peloponnese, took over "all Albania," he deported two groups of Albanians and settled them, one near Constantinople and the other in the Peloponnese, the latter "a great number" (30). The Albanians were acceptable to the Greek, Catalan or Venetian overlords, as the case might be, because they were capable of reviving agriculture in derelict areas.

In the eyes of the Greeks/ the Albanians and those associated with them were fine hunters, (31) excellent horsemen and redoubtable warriors. As has been said by Joseph Campbell, "by and large hunting people are warrior people; and not only that, but many are exhilarated by battle and turn warfare into exercises in bravura"(32). These were the ancestors of the Souliote warriors, whom Byron admired so much in the Greek War of Independence. In the fourteenth century they were feared and hated in northern Greece, but they were hired as mercenaries or attracted as settlers by the rulers of the principalities in the Peloponnese and central Greece and Thessaly. The most warlike of the Albanians were those described by the Greeks as living in great mountainous areas, that is those engaged in pastoralism with the transhumance of sheep. They were certainly illiterate, but they were tightly organised in tribal units with a patriarchal system of leadership. The leaders were evidently very capable men, possessing wide powers over their followers, and 'John the Sword', 'Peter the Pockmark' and 'Peter the Lame' led very large armies of Albanian warriors with success. When they were hired as mercenaries, they came not as individuals but as organised bands, sometimes accompanied by their families and animals. The hope of their employers was that the Albanians would "come with their horses" and fulfil their obligations "to maintain their horses, garrison the forts and obey orders (34)". It was these cavalrymen, with their entourage, who were the leaders. The rank and file fought on foot.

With the capture of Ioannina by the Turks in 1430. The role of the Albanians changed very little. The Albanians of Kruje, Mati and Dibra, i.e. of the areas north of the Shkumbi river, fought heroically against the Turks until the death of their leader, Skanderbeg, in 1467 and indeed after it, but unavailingly. The Albanians of the Peloponnese participated in a rising against the Turks in 1459. On the other hand the Turks were soon employing the Albanians as mercenaries and encouraging them to settle in the devastated areas not only of the Greek mainland but also in some of the Aegean islands. So the process of infiltration and expansion continued under Turkish rule. [B]By 1687, for instance, almost all the population of Euboea was Albanian, (35) the Greeks having fled in 1471.[/B]

[B]Piracy had led to impoverishment and depopulation in the islands during the late Byzantine period, and Albanians moved in as occasion arose. Thus they were brought to Andros (sic Salamis?) in the Saronic Gulf c. 1600 to cultivate the land; they went from Troezen to Hydra in 1580, and other settlers arrived from Parga, Souli, Valona, Euboea and Cythnos in the seventeenth century. Other groups went to Samos, Psara and Casos, many of the settlers being from western Epirus, Euboea and Thessaly. Yet other groups entered Andros, Ios, Cythnos and Ceos among the Cyclades and Scopelos in the Northern Sporades. They became excellent seamen, winning distinction in the Greek War of Independence and raising Hydra and Spetsae to a leading position in the carrying trade of the Aegean basin. Groups of soldiers were employed far afield: in Cyprus, for instance, in Byzantine times, and for some 250 years in Crete during the Turkish period.[/B]

One Albanian leader, 'Ali the Lion', emulated the achievements of 'John the Sword' and 'Peter the Pockmark' when he established himself as Ali Pasha, independent ruler of Ioannina. He and his Albanian soldiers, recruited mainly from his homeland in the Kurvelesh and the Drin valley of North Epirus, controlled the whole of Epirus and carried their raids far into western Macedonia and Thessaly. As we have seen, they destroyed the Vlach settlements in the lakeland and weakened those farther south. After the assassination of Ali Pasha in 1822 sporadic raids by bands of Albanians were a feature of life in northern Greece until the liberation or 1912-13.

The Albanian language persisted in Greece with full vigour into the 1930s. When Perachora on the Isthmus of Corinth was being excavated, all the workmen spoke Albanian; and I visited Albanian-speaking villages in Boeotia, Attica, Argolis and Epidaurus in the 1930s. Albanian gave way to Greek when the conditions of life changed through the introduction of universal education, military conscription, organised commerce and more mobility of population. In the islands change came sooner; and there Albanian receded in the nineteenth century. It is likely that Albanian will give way to Greek altogether under the conditions of the present half-century.

tchaiku 01-28-2017 04:33 AM

I am objective. My belief is that Albanians are Latinized Dacians that were separated from Vlachs many hundreds years ago.
[IMG]http://www.norwaydna.no/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Haplogroup-E-V13-Eupedia-2013.gif[/IMG]
[url]http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml#V13_origins[/url]

[IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/iyn809.jpg[/IMG]

Soldier of Macedon 01-29-2017 06:49 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;166508]It is possible this happened in [B]Epirus[/B]. Apparently, at some point in the middle ages, there were still 'Slavic' speakers there.[/QUOTE]
Arvanites moved much further south than just Epirus and it is not unrealistic to suggest that even in those places there were people speaking 'Slavic' languages.
[QUOTE="tchaiku"]My belief is that Albanians are Latinized Dacians that were separated from Vlachs many hundreds years ago.[/QUOTE]
The Albanian and Romanian languages share a number of similarities. But on what do you base the belief that Albanians descend from Dacians?

Carlin 02-01-2017 12:38 AM

Originally Posted by tchaiku -
[I]My belief is that Albanians are [B]Latinized[/B] Dacians that were separated from Vlachs many hundreds years ago.[/I]

This must be an error.
If not --- how are Albanians [B][SIZE="3"]Latinized[/SIZE][/B] Dacians?

(If Albanians are Latinized Dacians, what are Vlachs and/or Romanians?)

tchaiku 02-01-2017 10:10 AM

It is an error. Anyways for your question:

A good amount of the non-Latin features present in Romanian language have their correspondence in Albanian, not only concerning lexicon but also structure, phraseology and idioms. These characteristics belong to two linguistic periods: the substratum, that is the language spoken by the Vlach before their Romanization ‒which may be the same of Albanian or a similar language‒, and the subsequent close contact between both peoples throughout a long period, mainly regarding their common life-style as shepherds.
Since the controversy about the origin of Albanians is presented by two main theories, one proposing the Illyrian stem and the other the Thracian stem, the advocates of the Daco-Roman myth vehemently support the second possibility, as they cannot deny the strong links between the Vlach and the Albanian peoples in early times. It is not our task to discuss about the origin of Albanians here, and in any case it is irrelevant whether one or the other theory is the right one, because the whole complex of proofs point out in a definitive manner to the area of present-day Albania and surrounding territory as the birthplace of the early Romanians and not the eastern side of the Balkans ‒ even if the Albanians would not be autochthonous but coming from any other place, it is in the area they live today where both peoples met and not elsewhere. A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and there is not any vestige of their presence in that land), while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian. Another interesting fact concerns the very name of the capital city of Romania: Bucureşti, a word that is similar to the Albanian term "bukurisht", having the same meaning.
While the Vlach people were thoroughly Latinized, Albanian language has also received the influence of Latin since early times. A common territory and life-style shared by both peoples have produced the same semantic changes in both languages: a considerable number of Latin terms have undergone identical changes of meaning without parallel in any other tongue, and they cannot have happened just by chance or by any logical reason except because both peoples were living in a common environment and in the same territory.
Among the unusual features present in Romanian that are explainable by a comparison with Albanian we find also the definite article, that in Classic Latin precedes the noun but is enclitic in Romanian and follows the same patterns as in Albanian, and the personal pronoun in accusative case, that contains the suffix ~ne, exactly like in Albanian.


The Romanian language shows evidence of having been originated from a substratum that shares in common with Albanian, spoken in Southern Illyria. A branch of the Vlach people still inhabits in that original homeland.

[IMG]http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg[/IMG]

[url]http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm[/url]

Carlin 02-06-2017 11:11 PM

E X A C T quotes from Book I of Laonicus Chalcondyles:

1)
[SIZE="3"]"As far as one may infer, [B]the Serbs may well be an Illyrian people[/B], given where they came from before they acquired dominion over Europe. They thus came to Skopje from the lands to the west, by the Adratic Sea, [B]speak a language similar to that of the Illyrians[/B]. The Illyrian people is populous and has spread far and wide along the Adriatic Sea, as far as the Venetians. It would, then, not be difficult to infer that it was from them that the Serbs came to be dispersed across Europe. Even today both of them speak the same language and have the same customs and way of life, so that [B]those who venture an opinion about the Illyrians would be wrong were they to say that they are the present-day Albanians. I do not accept the premise of the argument, that the Albanians are an Illyrian people[/B]."[/SIZE]

2)
[SIZE="3"]"But I know that Serbs, Bulgarians, [B]Illyrians[/B] ([I]meaning Bosnians[/I]), Croatians, Poles, and Russians speak one and the same language. So if we must draw a conclusion from this evidence, it would be that they are all one and the same people, being of the same race."[/SIZE]

3)
[SIZE="3"]"[B]The Illyrian race[/B] is ancient and lives by the Adriatic Sea, and they are mentioned as flourishing in many places. [B]Today they are called Bosnians. But the Dalmatians, Bulgarians, Serbs, and Russians speak the same language as they do[/B] ............. [B]But I am amazed at those who propose that the Illyrians are the Albanians[/B] by arguing that the Illyrians by the inner gulf of the Adriatic Sea moved to Epeiros, Aitolia, and Thessaly."[/SIZE]

Carlin 02-06-2017 11:51 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;166749]It is an error. Anyways for your question:

A good amount of the non-Latin features present in Romanian language have their correspondence in Albanian, not only concerning lexicon but also structure, phraseology and idioms. These characteristics belong to two linguistic periods: the substratum, that is the language spoken by the Vlach before their Romanization ‒which may be the same of Albanian or a similar language‒, and the subsequent close contact between both peoples throughout a long period, mainly regarding their common life-style as shepherds.
Since the controversy about the origin of Albanians is presented by two main theories, one proposing the Illyrian stem and the other the Thracian stem, the advocates of the Daco-Roman myth vehemently support the second possibility, as they cannot deny the strong links between the Vlach and the Albanian peoples in early times. It is not our task to discuss about the origin of Albanians here, and in any case it is irrelevant whether one or the other theory is the right one, because the whole complex of proofs point out in a definitive manner to the area of present-day Albania and surrounding territory as the birthplace of the early Romanians and not the eastern side of the Balkans ‒ even if the Albanians would not be autochthonous but coming from any other place, it is in the area they live today where both peoples met and not elsewhere. A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and there is not any vestige of their presence in that land), while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian. Another interesting fact concerns the very name of the capital city of Romania: Bucureşti, a word that is similar to the Albanian term "bukurisht", having the same meaning.
While the Vlach people were thoroughly Latinized, Albanian language has also received the influence of Latin since early times. A common territory and life-style shared by both peoples have produced the same semantic changes in both languages: a considerable number of Latin terms have undergone identical changes of meaning without parallel in any other tongue, and they cannot have happened just by chance or by any logical reason except because both peoples were living in a common environment and in the same territory.
Among the unusual features present in Romanian that are explainable by a comparison with Albanian we find also the definite article, that in Classic Latin precedes the noun but is enclitic in Romanian and follows the same patterns as in Albanian, and the personal pronoun in accusative case, that contains the suffix ~ne, exactly like in Albanian.


The Romanian language shows evidence of having been originated from a substratum that shares in common with Albanian, spoken in Southern Illyria. A branch of the Vlach people still inhabits in that original homeland.

[IMG]http://www.imninalu.net/Myths_files/Vlach-expansion.jpg[/IMG]

[url]http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Thanks - I don't necessarily share your opinion, but it is a working hypothesis with most pieces and proofs missing or lacking. Most linguists and experts still struggle with it due to scarcity of sources and data.

Carlin 03-01-2017 12:57 AM

JUST A FEW SLAVIC LOANWORDS IN ALBANIAN LANGUAGE

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/brazd%C3%AB#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/lopat%C3%AB#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/plug#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kopa%C3%A7#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kastravec#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/klek%C3%AB#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bumbar#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kokosh#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/zhab%C3%AB#Albanian[/url]

[url]https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kock%C3%AB#Albanian[/url]

Risto the Great 03-01-2017 01:50 AM

Carlin, many of those words are quite fundamental and would typically not be the kinds of words that a language would need to use a loan word for (other than kastravec I guess). What is the significance of noting these loan words in the Albanian language in your opinion?

tchaiku 03-01-2017 09:31 AM

[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/2H9HkRm.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/crVFr24.png[/IMG]
:huh:

Carlin 03-15-2017 09:00 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;167154]Carlin, many of those words are quite fundamental and would typically not be the kinds of words that a language would need to use a loan word for (other than kastravec I guess). What is the significance of noting these loan words in the Albanian language in your opinion?[/QUOTE]

Thanks for your question.

If I can count correctly, I only provided 10 words which is but a small sample of Slavic loanwords (in Albanian).
For those who are more eager to continue I provide the following link -
[url]https://fr.scribd.com/doc/117854777/Vladimir-Orel-Albanian-Etymological-Dictionary#scribd?content=10079&campaign=Skimbit%2C%20Ltd.&ad_group=&keyword=ft750noi&source=impactradius&medium=affiliate&irgwc=1[/url]

So, why do languages have loanwords?

Per Prof. S. Kemmer from Rice University:

[I]Borrowing is a consequence of cultural contact between two language communities. Borrowing of words can go in both directions between the two languages in contact, but often there is an asymmetry, such that more words go from one side to the other. In this case [B]the source language community has some advantage of power, prestige and/or wealth that makes the objects and ideas it brings desirable and useful to the borrowing language community.[/B] For example, the Germanic tribes in the first few centuries A.D. adopted numerous loanwords from Latin as they adopted new products via trade with the Romans. Few Germanic words, on the other hand, passed into Latin.

The actual process of borrowing is complex and involves many usage events (i.e. instances of use of the new word). [B]Generally, some speakers of the borrowing language know the source language too, or at least enough of it to utilize the relevant words.[/B] They adopt them when speaking the borrowing language. [B]If they are bilingual in the source language, which is often the case, they might pronounce the words the same or similar to the way they are pronounced in the source language.[/B] For example, English speakers adopted the word garage from French, at first with a pronunciation nearer to the French pronunciation than is now usually found. Presumably the very first speakers who used the word in English knew at least some French and heard the word used by French speakers.[/I]

[url]http://www.ruf.rice.edu/~kemmer/Words/loanwords.html[/url]

Encyclopedia Britannica further states:

[I]Languages borrow words freely from one another. Usually this happens when some new object or institution is developed for which [B]the borrowing language has no word of its own[/B].[/I]

If we consider, like you pointed out, that the majority of these words are quite [I]fundamental[/I] it appears self-evident that the contact between Slavic-speakers and Albanian-speakers happened at a very early stage.

More importantly, some questions arise:

1) Did the source language community (Slavic-speakers) have some advantage of power, prestige and/or wealth over the borrowing language community (Albanian-speakers) at this unspecified early time / stage? (If it was not power or prestige do we then have to consider and explore the possibility that the Albanians arrived to the Balkans after the Slavs? Were the [I]Mardaites[/I] these early Albanians? Regardless of wealth or prestige, can we simply ignore the argument that the Albanians arrived from elsewhere?)

2) Did some number of early Albanian-speakers also speak Slavic?

3) Did the borrowing language have no native words/terms for the numerous [I]fundamental[/I] words specified?

tchaiku 03-16-2017 09:16 AM

The Umayyads were compelled to sign another treaty by which they paid the Byzantines half the tribute of Cyprus, Armenia and the Kingdom of Iberia in the Caucasus Mountains; in return, Justinian relocated around 12,000 Mardaites to the southern coast of Anatolia, as well as parts of Greece such as Epirus and the Peloponnese, as part of his measures to restore population and manpower to areas depleted by earlier conflicts.

So :
1. Mardaites were 12,000 who settled in many part of Epirus including the very southern parts. Also in Anatolia and Peloponnese. The number of Mardaites in the Albanian territory was very insignificant to create a new nation. We also know that Albanians expanded themselves from the north to the south by the 15th century.

2. Mardaites were taken to restore the population in the Byzantine Empire so why would 1/5 or 1/6 evolve into a nation?

3. Chances are that Albanians came even later than Mardaites in this territory seeing as the toponyms are expected to come from the [I]Bulgarian [/I] occupation.

Carlin 03-17-2017 08:27 PM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167358]The Umayyads were compelled to sign another treaty by which they paid the Byzantines half the tribute of Cyprus, Armenia and the Kingdom of Iberia in the Caucasus Mountains; in return, Justinian relocated around 12,000 Mardaites to the southern coast of Anatolia, as well as parts of Greece such as Epirus and the Peloponnese, as part of his measures to restore population and manpower to areas depleted by earlier conflicts.

So :
1. Mardaites were 12,000 who settled in many part of Epirus including the very southern parts. Also in Anatolia and Peloponnese. The number of Mardaites in the Albanian territory was very insignificant to create a new nation. We also know that Albanians expanded themselves from the north to the south by the 15th century.

2. Mardaites were taken to restore the population in the Byzantine Empire so why would 1/5 or 1/6 evolve into a nation?

3. Chances are that Albanians came even later than Mardaites in this territory seeing as the toponyms are expected to come from the [I]Bulgarian [/I] occupation.[/QUOTE]

1. 12,000 was very likely a 'stock figure'. It could have been less, or more. The number is high enough for a warrior/power elite to assert themselves (under the blessing and support of Byzantine/Roman government structures), form the ruling class in certain regions and subsequently influence and linguistically assimilate the local population. How many Frenchmen were necessary in order to influence and change the speech of the Anglo-Saxon population of England? How many Englishmen were required to totally eclipse the native tongue of Scotland?

(Also, it is true that the Albanians expanded themselves from the north to the south by the 15th century. Even Phrantzes, in his own time, asserted the following:

“Half of Peloponnese land was actually occupied by the Albanians at that time and they attempted to get the other half, too, both by force of arms and by negotiation with Sultan Mehmed II.”)

2. If Mardaites were indeed taken to restore the population in certain regions of the Byzantine Empire, this can only mean that these regions and districts were either totally depopulated or very sparsely inhabited. Why would they not evolve into a "nation"?

3. Fair enough. This is possible.

tchaiku 03-18-2017 06:32 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;167383]
If Mardaites were indeed taken to restore the population in certain regions of the Byzantine Empire, this can only mean that these regions and districts were either totally depopulated or very sparsely inhabited. Why would they not evolve into a "nation"?[/QUOTE]

It is a fact that Mardaites were taken to restore the population in [B]many[/B] regions:
Many parts of Peloponnese
Many part of Turkey
Many part of Epirus
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=pSHmT1G_5T0C&pg=PA71&dq=Mardaites+epirus&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKvqjb-N_SAhXCBSwKHcGcDdEQ6AEISTAI#v=onepage&q=Mardaites%20epirus&f=false[/url]

So it does not add up to me.

Carlin 03-18-2017 10:00 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;167385]It is a fact that Mardaites were taken to restore the population in [B]many[/B] regions:
Many parts of Peloponnese
Many part of Turkey
Many part of Epirus
[url]https://books.google.com/books?id=pSHmT1G_5T0C&pg=PA71&dq=Mardaites+epirus&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjKvqjb-N_SAhXCBSwKHcGcDdEQ6AEISTAI#v=onepage&q=Mardaites%20epirus&f=false[/url]

So it does not add up to me.[/QUOTE]

That's fine. The fact remains that many Mardaites were settled in these parts, even though we do not know the specifics or precise numbers.

Even if Mardaites were/are not 'proto-Albanian speakers' the question remains, what was the ethnological impact of Mardaites in Epirus, Peloponnese and other districts? Did the Albanians absorb and assimilate the Mardaites?

For Thomas Gordon, who wrote "History of the Greek Revolution: In Two Volumes, Volume 1" the settlement of Mardaites (in Epirus, Peloponnese) was due to the fact that great part of the population was exterminated (pg. 7 and 8):

[B][I]"We only know that proper Greece was repeatedly and cruelly wasted by Goths, Saracens, and Bulgarians, that her cities were mostly ruined, [B]great part of the population exterminated, and that to fill up the void, the emperors planted there, at various periods, [U]colonies of Mardaites[/U] and Sclavonians."[/B][/I][/B]

Carlin 03-18-2017 03:21 PM

Influence of the Austro-Hungarian Empire on the Creation of the Albanian Nation (1896-1908)

[url]https://books.google.ca/books/about/%C3%96sterreich_Ungarn_und_die_albanische_Na.html?id=VQvmoAEACAAJ&redir_esc=y[/url]

[url]https://fbreporter.org/2015/04/01/documents-from-the-vienna-royal-archives-confirm-the-albanian-nation-was-constructed-by-austro-hungary/[/url]

Namely, the doctoral thesis of the recently deceased Bulgarian historian Teodora Toleva (1968-2011) in Spanish under the original title in Spanish La influencia del Imperio Austro-Hungaro en la construccion nacional albanesa (1896-1908), in which she in a factographically rich book divided into ten chapters explains her vision of the genesis and development of the Albanian nation in the late 19th and early 20th Centuries. The Bulgarian editing house Siela published her work in Bulgarian posthumously, and the German translation of this work under the title Der Einfluss Osterreich-Ungarns auf die Bildung der albanischen Nation 1896-1908 was also published in December 2013.

It should be noted that Teodora Toleva built her name in Bulgarian historiography by being a very industrious researcher, with high professional standards, an extraordinary polyglot (she spoke Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italian, Russian, English and German). Besides this she was noticed back in 2006 for her capital work Foreign Policy of Gyala Andrássy and the Macedonian Issue, and posthumous publishing of her third book Genocide and the Fate of the Armenians 1905 is soon expected. We are emphasizing all this for comprehending that this work of hers, defended in Spain, is a work valuable of attention of the Serbian historians as well, who not rarely shy away from studying Bulgarian historiographical works.


Toleva concluded “After thorough studying of the archives we may claim that at the beginning of the 20th Century the Albanian population did not still represent a formed nation. The ethnical groups in Albania live isolated; they do not have connections between themselves, except when fighting. The possibilities for their convergence were practically nonexistent; murders are common, even for the people from the same clan. There were two basic dialects in the country that were so different that people could hardly understand each other. There was no unique literary language, but more than twenty different manners of writing in local dialects. The coefficient of literacy did not even exceed 2%. The population belonged to three religious confessions – Muslims, Orthodox and Catholics. The Albanians did not have national awareness, they did not have general interests, they did not express solidarity and they did not develop in the direction of waking the national feeling. Hence, at the beginning of the 20th Century there wass no Albanian nation.” Тoleva considered that her material evidence proved that Austro-Hungary was the most responsible for the creation of the Albanian nation, having 1908 as the crucial year, after which better times came for forming the Albanian nation.

It is interesting to see what reputed intellectuals from the West think about this work.

The Catalonian professor Ph D Agusti Colomines i Companys from the University of Barcelona said: “In her work Toleva comes to the conclusion that the Austro-Hungarian diplomacy played a crucial role in developing the feeling of national belonging of the Albanians in the Ottoman Empire, which had transformed into a dungeon of nations in the same manner as Austro-Hungary did itself. The political activity of Vienna was crucial in the process of national building in the light of Ernest Gellner and his modernistic theory, which later led to constructing the Albanian state”.

Carlin 04-17-2017 11:35 PM

Additional connection(s) between modern Albanians (namely Labs or Liapides) and Mardaites: [I][COLOR="Red"][B]the modern Kurvelies or Labs were also designated by the Byzantines under the name of the Mardaites[/B][/COLOR][/I].

Documents inédits relatifs à l'histoire de la Grèce au Moyen âge publiés ..., by [U]Konstantinos N. Sathas[/U].
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=XcoX4UF8xCgC&pg=PR15&dq=Sathas+Mardaites&hl=fr&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwir8bGA1qDTAhUM84MKHaHSCPIQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q&f=true[/url]

[B]Page PREFACE XV, footnote 1[/B]:

"Parmi les Albanais persistent encore les noms Cabires et Mardaites, les Chanoniens ou Liap se disant encore [I]Kurvelies[/I], et les montagnards de Scodra, [I]Mirdites[/I]. Comme nous verrons, les Kurvelies modernes etaient aussi designee par les Byzantins sous les nom des Mardaites."

Which translates to:

[B]"Among the Albanians still persist the names Cabires and Mardaites, the Chaonians or [B]Liap[/B] [B]still call themselves [I]Kurvelies[/I][/B], and the mountaineers of Scodra, [I]Mirdites[/I]. As we shall see, [B]the modern Kurvelies were also designated by the Byzantines under the name of the Mardaites[/B]."[/B]

Labëria
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lab%C3%ABria[/url]

Kurvelies=Kurvelesh
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurvelesh_(region)[/url]


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