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Soldier of Macedon 10-19-2009 11:00 PM

Many of the Macedonian or Slavonic loans in Albanian appear to be in relation to verbs. Here is a list of some words that are likely loans:

[U]English-Albanian-Macedonian[/U]

Pledge/Word - Besa - Beseda (OCS)
Oath - Betim - Veti
Oral - Gojor - Govor
Spoke - Rreze - Reche
Custom - Zakon - Zakon (law)
Fun - Zbavites - Zabava

Pick - Zgjedh - Zgodi or Godi
Ready - Gati - Gotov
Queue - Radhe - Red
Record - Shenim - Snima
Delete - Prish - Brishi
Walk - Shetitje - Shetaj
Run - Tirazh - Trcha
Row - Vozit - Vozi (ride)
Kick = Goditje; Godi or Pogodi (pelt)

Male - Mashkull - Mashko

Nothing - Hich - Ich
Stream - Rreke - Reka (river)
Fire - Zjarr - Zhar

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:35 AM

SOM, a more proper way to say father in Albanian would be Ate


[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25168]So then it would be fair to say that today's Albanian vocabulary is more non-Albanian than Albanian?

How much % of Slavonic words in the Albanian language? 20%? 10%? Less? I notice that even words such as 'Besa' have a Slavonic origin, were you aware of this? 'Beseda' is cited in Church Slavonic texts from the 9th century.[/QUOTE]

Yes, most of the Albanian vocabulary is foreign but there is so much more to a language than loan words.

My rough estimates of standard Albanian would be(not 100% accurate):

30-35% Proto-Albanian

35-40% Latin

15-20% Greek

10-15% Slavic

2-3% "Other" (Persian and Turkish mainly)



I believe the word Besa is neither Albanian or Slavonic origin. I remember hearing of an old Besa tribe that was settled around the Eastern Balkans-Western Anatolia. They certainly predate the 9th century.

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:42 AM

It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.


[quote]The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors, the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine.[/quote]

Soldier of Macedon 10-20-2009 01:43 AM

Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.

Astrit 10-20-2009 01:50 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25194]Astrit, the Thracian tribe of Bessi existed over 2,000 years ago and the etymology of their name is undetermined as far as I am aware.

'Beseda' was recorded in Church Slavonic documents from Macedonia in the 9th century, and it virtually has the exact same meaning as the Albanian word 'Besa'. I find it hard to believe that the Albanian word comes from anything but the Macedonian word in this case.[/QUOTE]

Beseda would at first would seem closer to Biseda in Albanian which simply means conversation but the definitions do not match up.

Soldier of Macedon 10-20-2009 01:54 AM

That's interesting. I must go, but I will respond further later today.

makedonin 10-20-2009 03:25 AM

[QUOTE=Astrit;25193]It seems that Besa is likely Thracian in origin.

In Albanian Besoj or Bessoi in Thracian, means to believe.
[/QUOTE]

That is not what I read down from your quoted text!

[QUOTE=Astrit;25193]

[QUOTE][B]The Thrakian Bessoi are a tribe with the reputation of being wild and savage even among the wild and savage Thrakian tribes that inhabit the region north of Hellas. [/B]Sharing only minimal cultural ties with their southern brethren the Thrakians are rightly feared for their ferocity and impetuous nature. Occasionally raiding into parts of Makedonia and fending off raids from the Skudata are the most organized of the Bessoi international politics. But usually the Thrakian tribes fight each other more than any unified enemy. But with a strong chieftain able to manipulate the will of these terrifying warriors,[B] the Bessoi could bond the tribes into a most fearsome fighting machine. [/B][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word[B] Besen plural Besni[/B] meaning [B]wild, mad[/B] corresponds more to the Thracian [B]Bessoi [/B]pronounce [B]Bessi [/B]cause [B]OI = long I.[/B]

You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating [B]Bessoi [/B]with the Albanian [B]Besoj [/B]meaning to [B]believe[/B].


How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?!

slovenec zrinski 10-20-2009 03:47 AM

beseda means word in the slovenian language.

Astrit 10-20-2009 04:32 AM

[QUOTE=makedonin;25200]That is not what I read down from your quoted text!



If your quote is true, than the Macedonian word[B] Besen plural Besni[/B] meaning [B]wild, mad[/B] corresponds more to the Thracian [B]Bessoi [/B]pronounce [B]Bessi [/B]cause [B]OI = long I.[/B]

You can even consider the Serbo-Croatian word Besan plural Besni which is the same word though, or the Bulgarian Bes'n meaning the same.

In your quoted text I don't see any notion relating [B]Bessoi [/B]with the Albanian [B]Besoj [/B]meaning to [B]believe[/B].


How come you read from that text that Bessoi means believe?![/QUOTE]

In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known. It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.

makedonin 10-20-2009 04:56 AM

[QUOTE=Astrit;25204]In Albanian Besoj means to believe, the Thracian meaning is not known.

It was only pointed out because Besoj and Bessoi are pronounced the same in Albanian and not because they share the same definition.


In fact, if Bessoi was Albanized to follow the phonetic rules of the language it would be written as Besoj.[/QUOTE]

Well if you Macedonize Bessoi, you will also become Besoj, but it would mean rages, in plural and dialectical of course. The literal is Besovi for rages.

BUT that is not how it goes.

The whole problem about this is that the word Bessoi is given to us in Greek letters, as [B]Βεσσοι [/B].

The vocalization rule of the characters in the word are as follow:

[B]Β > B
ε>e
σσ> s or sh
οι>long i[/B]

So the word would have been pronounced [B]Besi or Beshi[/B], which is far from Besoj in both, the Macedonian and Albanian case.


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