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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Soldier of Macedon 10-15-2009 03:02 AM

You do realise that this guy is trying to propose Albanian as a sort of mother-language to IE don't you? I find some of his suggestions hard to believe. Can you post a couple of them and elaborate a little?

For example, I would like to know where he got 'Mat' for a 'bank, shore or mountain'? I have checked several Albanian dictionaries and there is no 'bank, shore or mountain' listed under this word. The word 'Ma[B]t[/B]' in Albanian basically means to 'measure or gauge', have you ever used this word for anything other than the translation I just cited? In Albanian, the word for 'mountain' is 'Ma[B]l[/B]' and for 'shore' it is 'Breg' (same as Macedonian and other Slavic languages).

Is Vladimir Orel wrong, has he made a play on the words 'Ma[B]t[/B]' and 'Ma[B]l[/B]', or have I overlooked something here? Appreciate your thoughts.


In addition to all of this, even if Albanian does have proto-IE elements, that does not indicate a continued presence in one region, namely, the Balkans.

Bratot 10-15-2009 03:20 PM

The [B]Byzantine sources[/B] indicate that the [U]Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by [/U][B][U]Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut,[/U][/B] fled [B]from Syria[/B] during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, [B]was himself a scion of of Jabal,[/B] [U]the last Ghassanid chieftain.[/U] During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the[U][B] Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya [/B][/U]who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). [COLOR="Blue"][B][U]They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum' [/U][/B][/COLOR]( Al-Sayyid Ahmad bin al-Sayyid Zayni Dahlan, Al-futuhat al-islamiyya ba'ad mudiyi al-futuhat al-nabawiyya, Cairo: Maktaba al-Islami, 1323 H/1905 CE, pp.80-83.).
In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious [U]dark-skinned Morovlachi [/U]from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.
There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

[U][B]After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills [/B][/U]. How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the [B]Crne Arapi (Black Arabs)[/B] of the medieval Hum, [B]Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto [/B]('Amir Abad')(E. Chelebi, Ptepis, Bulgarian tr. And ed. By S. Dimitrov, Sofia; Institut za Balkanstika pri Bulgarskoi Akademii Nauk, 1972, p. 223, Macedonian tr. And ed. By A. Matkowski, Makedoniya vo delata na stanskite patopistzy, Skopje: Misla 1991, p.561.).
Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. [U]If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz[/U]. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

[url]http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/Albchapt.htm[/url]

Risto the Great 10-15-2009 04:51 PM

Yes, the same Arabs that reached Sicily and quite possibly Malta (amongst other places) surely did not leave the fertile lands of Albania untouched?

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 05:12 PM

We cannot ignore the fact that Egyptians were also settled on the coasts of the Morea and Albania by the Ottomans during mutinies and conflicts. I am positive this also had a stinging effect on their demographics. Albanians live in a fantasy world like their cousins in Athens.

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 07:03 PM

This really sickens me.

[url]http://www.tehelka.com/story_main43.asp?filename=Ne241009let_sleeping.asp[/url]

Let Sleeping Saints Lie

Kolkata is fighting the Albanian claim to Mother Teresa’s relics, reports LIPIKA SINHA


THEY ARE CALLING it the world's worst row over a body. Ever since Albanian PM Sali Berisha asked New Delhi for the remains of Mother Teresa to be returned to Albania by the 100th anniversary of her birth in August 2010, Kolkata has been enraged. Berisha has threatened that negotiations for the remains would actually intensify and India will — eventually — have to agree. But Albania is already engaged in a dispute with Macedonia over the national identity of the Mother, who got beatified by the Vatican in 2003 as a first step towards canonisation.

Berisha’s repeated statements have sparked consternation in the city Teresa made her home. Mother Teresa — born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu in Skopje, Macedonia, on Aug 26, 1910, to an ethnic Albanian family — lived in Kolkata for 68 years, caring for the poor and the infirm. After her death on September 5, 1997, she was buried in Mother House, the global headquarters of the Missionaries of Charity (MOC) founded by her, in central Kolkata. Teresa, came to Kolkata in 1929 and founded the Roman Catholic religious order that currently has over 4,500 sisters and is active in 133 countries. Does that make her part of the city's heritage and history? Yes, says Kolkata. No, argues Albania, demanding that the remains of the Nobel laureate be returned to her country of origin.

“I am finding this actually very, very ridiculous. She may have been an Albanian. But she became Mother Teresa because of her work in Kolkata. She came to India, taught at Loreto Convent in Darjeeling and then chose Kolkata as her home and workplace. [B]She lived here and she died here.[/B] Someone needs to respect her memory and let her remains lie here,” Magsaysay Award-winning litterateur Mahasweta Devi told TEHELKA. The moment she heard of the demand, she told her friends to visit the grave in central Kolkata, sign a petition and submit it to the nuns of the Missionaries of Charity. “I also went to see the grave and pay my respects. [B]I will pay my respects here, not in Albania.[/B]” The grave — a three-feet high rectangular tomb in what was earlier a dining room — is a big draw for foreigners as also Indians visiting Kolkata. A nice biblical verse carved on a white marble marker reads: “Love one another as I have loved you”.

There are others who have joined the protest. Bangiya Christiya Pariseba (BCP), the apex body of Christians in West Bengal, has strongly opposed the Albanian prime minister's move. “The Mother took Indian citizenship. So she was an Indian by choice. Nobody can support the Albanian government's stand,” says BCP General Secretary Herod Mullick. He found instant support from the city’s famed filmmaker Mrinal Sen who said he could not understand the sentiments of the Albanian government. “I just do not see any reason why the government in her country of birth should take her remains out of the city. How can we give away a part of our heritage, our history?"

In New Delhi, officials of the Ministry of External Affairs (MEA) seem a little perplexed over the crisis and refused comment, except to confirm that Mother Teresa was a naturalised Indian citizen. “We will handle it if an official request is made to India,” said a spokesperson. [B]MEA sources said it was highly unlikely that New Delhi would agree to the Albanian request.[/B] Also playing safe were the nuns of MOC who said they were yet to be notified about the Albanian proposal. “How can we make any comment now?” asked MOC spokesperson Sister Christie. The impasse continues.


From Tehelka Magazine, Vol 6, Issue 42, Dated October 24, 2009

TrueMacedonian 10-15-2009 07:07 PM

This is an obvious ignorant statement on this filmmakers part;

[QUOTE]He found instant support from the city’s famed filmmaker Mrinal Sen who said he could not understand the sentiments of the Albanian government. “[B]I just do not see any reason why the government in her country of birth[/B] should take her remains out of the city. How can we give away a part of our heritage, our history?"[/QUOTE]

Her birth was in Skopje,,,not Tirana.

Besides this fact I do not appreciate the Albanian government making claims to Mother Teresa. She may have been Albanian or Half Albanian but she felt more Christian than anything. And the Indians feel such a spiritual connection to her that it would be wrong to remove her body from India. I hope Macedonia does not ask for he remains because that is just downright wrong in my opinion. "She lived here and died here" as the Indians said. Albania needs to stop making up myths and needs to get with the program of reality.

Soldier of Macedon 10-16-2009 03:10 AM

She was born in Macedonia of Albanian and possibly Macedonian origins, if anything the Macedonians would have more right to make such a request than Albania. But as TM said, that would be wrong. Macedonia will celebrate her memory because she was born there and that in itself is a significant fact, but she carried out most of her life's work in India, her body belongs there, I am sure that she would have wanted the same thing. Let her rest in peace.

George S. 10-16-2009 04:18 AM

I don't think the indians are going to give her up so easily & she would belong more to the macedonians because she is born in skopje.If anything she belongs to the vatican & her body may have to go to Rome!

Pelister 10-16-2009 07:53 PM

Very interesting.

I always believed that the present day Albanians were settled in the region by the Byzantines, or had arrived there between the 7th and 10th century.

Soldier of Macedon 10-17-2009 01:49 PM

[QUOTE=Bratot;24966]The [B]Byzantine sources[/B] indicate that the [U]Christianized Arab tribe Banu Ghassan led by [/U][B][U]Jabal bin al-Ayhan called Arna'ut,[/U][/B] fled [B]from Syria[/B] during Muslim al- futuhat and received from the emperor Constantine II a fief in Macedonia. Some historians speculate that the emperor Nicephorus I who ruled in Constantinople between 802 and 811 CE, [B]was himself a scion of of Jabal,[/B] [U]the last Ghassanid chieftain.[/U] During the reign of Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid, even the serious Muslim scholars believed that the[U][B] Arnauts of Albania are Arab Ghassanids from Syria or the Berbers from Afrikiyya [/B][/U]who 'being blinded by the Jahiliyya (pre-Islamic ignorance) became Nasara (Christians). [COLOR="Blue"][B][U]They crossed the Mediterranean Sea and settled down in the land of Rum' [/U][/B][/COLOR]( Al-Sayyid Ahmad bin al-Sayyid Zayni Dahlan, Al-futuhat al-islamiyya ba'ad mudiyi al-futuhat al-nabawiyya, Cairo: Maktaba al-Islami, 1323 H/1905 CE, pp.80-83.).
In the high Middle Ages, both the Muslim Osmanlis and the Christian Habsburgs recruited to their armies the vicious [U]dark-skinned Morovlachi [/U]from the Bosnian and Montenegrin hills. Those nominal Orthodox Christians were completely Serbicized in the end of seixteen century.
There are plenty numismatic and paleographic evidences that the Arab and Berber Muslims from Sicily and Maghreb explored the Dalmatian coast and established several trade posts in Albania.

[U][B]After the collapse of Islamic state in Sicily, many Muslim Arab and Berber muhajereen could crossed the narrow Adriatic Sea and took refuge in the Albanian hills [/B][/U]. How many survivors of the massacre of the Muslim deportees from the Apulian city of Lucera (1300CE) escaped the Christian sword and found asylum in Albania is a subject of historical supposition. Apparently, some of the [B]Crne Arapi (Black Arabs)[/B] of the medieval Hum, [B]Bosnia and Albania were the descendants of the mujaheddin of the last Muslim intifadah in Sicily led by the legendary Al-Mirabetto [/B]('Amir Abad')(E. Chelebi, Ptepis, Bulgarian tr. And ed. By S. Dimitrov, Sofia; Institut za Balkanstika pri Bulgarskoi Akademii Nauk, 1972, p. 223, Macedonian tr. And ed. By A. Matkowski, Makedoniya vo delata na stanskite patopistzy, Skopje: Misla 1991, p.561.).
Undoubtedly, some Muslim survivors from 'safe haven' of Lucera reached the self-reliant Ragusian merchant republic which had in the past a very good trade relations with the Islamic Sicily, Spain and Levant. [U]If these Muslims refugees from Sicily and Apulia were among the Albanians, certainly, they were those people who enthusiastically welcomed the Osmanli troops led by Yakut Pasha and Hodja Firouz[/U]. These Osmanli generals who captured Kroia (Ak Hisar) in 1396 CE, liberated Albanians from the heavy yoke of Catholic church's tax imposition.

[url]http://www.iiu.edu.my/deed/quran/albanian/Albchapt.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
Thanks Bratot, good information that goes some way in corroborating a few of Celebi's assertions. I think the main point of contention (if the Arab theory was to be given acceptance) is the timeframes, Celebi and his Albanians may have brought the story of their arrival back a few centuries to conform to the Jabal story and Islamic legend.


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