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Soldier of Macedon 10-13-2009 05:44 AM

Here's a website that makes reference to Celebi and the Albanians.

[url]http://www.albanianliterature.net/oral_lit3/OL3-11.html[/url]
[QUOTE]Travelling through southern Albania in 1670, Ottoman traveller Evliya Chelebi (1611-1684) recounts the apocryphal legend of the Arab sheikh Jabal-i Alhama, who fled to the mountains of [B]Kurvelesh in Albania[/B] and died in Elbasan. According to Evliya, he is the father of the Albanian people.[/QUOTE]

Bratot 10-13-2009 06:19 AM

[QUOTE]The place they originally inhabited, and where they still reside after many generations, is now called [B][U]the mountain of Quryelesh,[/U][/B] since they are descended from the Quraysh tribe of Arabs[/QUOTE]

Quryelesh = Kurvelesh
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurvelesh[/url]

Coincidence?

:)

TrueMacedonian 10-13-2009 04:25 PM

SoM thank you for posting this. I know plenty of Albanians that hate Celebi. They insist that he got it all wrong. Yet why would he lie about it? What gain would've come out of him lying about the Albanians past? Irregardless of the fact that he was bad at geography and poor on who the inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire were (Ottomans really had no true ethnic identifier for the Balkan peoples except for the term Rayah and Romoi) Celebi gets into some details about these peoples and their past that no other historian or chronicler of the time has ever done.
I've read somewhere of Arab pirates raiding the Balkan coast lines and settling in some de-populated areas. Could it be possible that these people may have settled in the Albanian coast and spread from there?

Pelister 10-13-2009 06:32 PM

I'm not sure if this little bit of info belongs in this thread as it is about Evliya and the Albanians, but here it is anyway.

Remember I told you about a Near Eastern word "Sippar" which in Arabic means "bird".

It is possible that the descendants of the present day Albanians were settled where they are today by the Byzantines.

P.253 "Empires of Islamin Rennaissance historical Thought" by Margaret Meserve

[quote] Nero had tried once or possibly twice to send a legion to the 'Caspian Gates' in an attempt to emulate the deeds of Alesander the Great. We know his goal was the Caucasus, and not the Iranian Caspian Gates, both because Pliny explains that the expedition was aimed at 'Hiberia' (Georgia) and because [B]Tactitus[/B], who describes the soldiers chosen for this campaign ended up loitering dangerously in Rome, [B][U]says that Nero had directed them against the Albani, a caucasion tribe[/U][/B]. [/quote]

Soldier of Macedon 10-13-2009 08:48 PM

[QUOTE="TrueMacedonian"]SoM thank you for posting this. I know plenty of Albanians that hate Celebi. [B][U]They insist that he got it all wrong[/U][/B].[/QUOTE]
They should consult their ancestors, Celebi largely relayed that what was told to him, [B][U]by the Albanians themselves[/U][/B]. No amount of whining can dispute that.

Not sure how much Arab there is in their lineage, possibly a combination of that, Persian and Caucasus elements, as common words between Romanian and Albanian indicate that the latter may have crossed by there during travels from east to west.

Astrit 10-14-2009 03:13 AM

Not only are Albanians Arabs but they are also descendants of Muhammad's tribe?

The above claim is so ridiculous I have trouble taking it seriously but I will answer some of these claims with some dignity.


[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;24749]


Celebi states that the first ancestors of the Albanians were Arabs who arrived in Epirus during the 7th century. [/QUOTE]


False: The Arabic haplogroup J1 is nearly non existent among Albanians. Which means Albanian could not possibly be Arabs or carry the same lineage.




[QUOTE]
These lands were previously uninhabited and, within a short period of time, he settled them and, mingling with the Franks, they created the Albanian language from a mixture of Frankish and Arabic.
[/QUOTE]

False: The Albanian language is not related to either Frankish or Arabic
By Frankish I assume he is not referring to the Germanic language but Western Romance. Either way both instances are wrong, you can count Germanic words in Albanian with one hand. The Albanian language was also influence by Eastern not Western Latin.


All known Arabic words in Albanian we borrowed from Turkish. They are loans which means the early Albanians could not have possibly spoken Arabic.




[QUOTE]There is also a source (Michael Attaliates?) that apparently wrote of a people called 'Arbanitai' who were transplanted as mercenaries from Sicily to Albania by a rebel military commander called George Maniakos in 1042.[/QUOTE]

False: The first Albanian settlers in Southern Italy the Arbereshe migrated during the late 15th century.




[QUOTE]This clan of Quraysh[/QUOTE]


False: The clan of Quraysh has no connection to the village of Kurvalesh.

The village name comes from the term Kurve which I am sure most of you know is a common slavic word, meanwhile Lesh means wool. There is a story of how village earned the name after a whore that sleeps with a local bey only to kill him when he falls asleep with some type of handmade woolen rope...

Daskalot 10-14-2009 03:46 AM

Thank you for your breakdown of the above mentioned information Astrit.
Could it be possible that there were some migration of Arabs into nowadays Albanian? Why would Celebi state a thing like that, was it because the Albanians at the time tried to impress on the Ottoman official and rise their own status in his eyes, when they claimed to be connected to Muhammed?

Astrit 10-14-2009 04:11 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;24794]Thank you for your breakdown of the above mentioned information Astrit.
Could it be possible that there were some migration of Arabs into nowadays Albanian? Why would Celebi state a thing like that, was it because the Albanians at the time tried to impress on the Ottoman official and rise their own status in his eyes, when they claimed to be connected to Muhammed?[/QUOTE]

Daskalot, linguistically and racially speaking any connection Albanians have to Arabs is slim at best. Prior to the Ottoman invasion there were no known mosques in what today is Albania.



I agree with you the Muslim peasants Celebi was speaking of in Albania likely claimed relation to Muhammad to elevate their status. For a Muslim there would be no greater honor then sharing ancestry with the prophet.

Soldier of Macedon 10-14-2009 04:30 AM

[QUOTE="Astrit"]Not only are Albanians Arabs but they are also descendants of Muhammad's tribe?

The above claim is so ridiculous I have trouble taking it seriously but I will answer some of these claims with some dignity.[/QUOTE]
Astrit, no grudges from me mate, it was not me but Celebi that spent alot of time with the Albanians. It was [U]your own ancestors[/U] who told Celebi about their history and origins. Are you calling [U]your own ancestors[/U] ridiculous? Answer in response to [U]your own ancestors[/U] with dignity, and adress them with your 'falses'.
[QUOTE]The Albanian language was also influence by Eastern not Western Latin.[/QUOTE]
The Albanian language has significant influences from Slavonic languages, Greek, east Latin, Italian and probably several others. The language interests me, I am actually in the process of creating a topic about it, I am sure you will visit it and pass on your comments, perhaps you can clear up any misconceptions.
[QUOTE]The first Albanian settlers in Southern Italy the Arbereshe migrated during the late 15th century[/QUOTE]
People settled from Albania to Southern Italy during the 15th century, I don't dispute that, but George Maniakos is reported to have transplanted people from Sicily to Albania in the 11th century. Literature in Albanian is recorded only from the 13th century, that in itself does not mean that your people weren't present in the region prior, however, I would like for you to clarify something if you can.

On wikipedia I have seen this:
[QUOTE]Michael Attaliates, History 297 mentiones "Arbanitai" as parts of a mercenary army (c.1085); Anna Comnena, Alexiad VI:7/7 and XIII 5/1-2 mentions a region or town called Arbanon or Arbana, and "Arbanitai" as its inhabitants (1148). See also Vranousi (1970) and Ducellier (1968).[/QUOTE]
Then I have seen this:
[QUOTE]In the 2nd century BCE, [B][U]Polybius mentions the Arbanios, Arbanitai with their city Arbon[/U][/B]; in the 1st century CE, Pliny refers to Illyrian Olbonensis, and the 2nd century CE, [B]Ptolemy mentions an Illyrian tribe of the Albanoi[/B], settling in what is now Central Albania, with Albanopolis as their main city.[/QUOTE]
Can you please show me the quotes where Arbanitai are mentioned by Polybius and Albanoi are mentioned by Ptolemy? Given that these two sources are quoted extensively by today's Albanians, you should have no problem in being able to produce these.
[QUOTE]There is a story of how village earned the name after a whore that sleeps with a local bey only to kill him when he falls asleep with some type of handmade woolen rope...[/QUOTE]
Do you have a source that corroborates any of the above? I did a quick search and all I saw was some Albanian assumptions about a joke that emanated from Tirana and who could only agree on the first part of the word (kurve - whore).

Soldier of Macedon 10-14-2009 05:04 AM

Found this on wikipedia:
[QUOTE]The theory that Albanians were related to the Illyrians was proposed for the first time by a German historian in 1774.[/QUOTE]
The cited source is [I]Thunmann, Johannes E. "Untersuchungen uber die Geschichte der Oslichen Europaischen Volger". Teil, Leipzig, 1774.[/I]


Unfortunately there is no quote. Astrit, can you help? I have never heard of this person before.


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