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Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 04:24 AM

Just to throw another angle into this (posts from TM and Onur):


TM wrote: The family of the Arabian Emir Anemas in Crete was in the service of John Tzimisces, while George Maniaces, who reconquered Sicily (1038), bears a Turkish name.

Onur wrote: "Asil" is derived from Persian and probably used in Turkish after 13th century as earliest. Turkish originated words for "Noble" are "Koklu, Soylu" but i didn't hear or know anything similar with "Maniakes" which means "Noble" in Turkish. I just know an old Turkish word like "Mank, Manik" which means "Staid, Graceful". I don't think anyone still uses "Mank" today in Turkey. It`s just a question for crossword puzzles anymore.

I heard this Byzantine general tough. Byzantines calls these people as "Tourkopouloi". They are Christians Turks converted from shamanism. George was a famous one among them. When Byzantines converted these Turks to Christianity, they usually took Greek first name but most was using their Turkish names too. Like the names of medieval Bulgarian kings, for example "Ivan shisman", Ivan is a slavic name but shisman is Turkish. So, it`s highly possible that "Maniakes" is derived from a Turkish word.[/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2011 04:47 AM

Something further to the above. The Estonian and Finnish word for brother is "veli" - quite similar to the Albanian word for brother, which is "vella".

Soldier of Macedon 07-19-2011 09:11 PM

Just with regard to Maniaces, both Komnena and Psellus make mention of him, will post the relevant sections later.

Onur 07-20-2011 03:36 AM

We don't use it much in modern Turkish anymore but "veli" means "close relative, guardian person" in Turkish. It`s probably Arabic/Persian word used in Ottoman era.

Soldier of Macedon 07-20-2011 03:43 AM

Thanks Onur. I think one of the difficulties in trying to understand the origin of some Albanian words rests with the large amount of foreign loanwords that have been mutated (almost) beyond recognition over time. Unfortunately, such examples inspire others to incorrectly consider them unique "Illyrian" words.

Soldier of Macedon 08-09-2011 09:36 AM

One thing I have always found interesting about the Albanian language when compared to other languages in the Balkans is the fact that they have a soft 'r' like in modern English and a rolled 'r' like in other Balkan languages. I am wondering if this may have something to do with Germanic influence. Both variants are also present in some Indo-Iranian languages, but that may (or may not) have something to do with their interaction with Dravidian languages.

Soldier of Macedon 08-13-2011 10:18 PM

Further to the above, Albanian dialectal differences appear to share some similarities with Semitic languages:

[QUOTE]The southern Tosk dialect (which is now the dominant literary language) of [B]Albanian changed /n/ to /r/[/B] while, for example, the Gheg dialects did not.[1] Compare:

zŽri vs z‚ni ('the voice')
gjuri vs gjuni ('the knee')
Shqiperi vs Shqypni ('Albania')

[B]In Aramaic, proto-Semitic n is often changed to r[/B]:

bar "son" as compared to Hebrew ben (from Proto-Semitic *bnu)
trÍn and tartÍn "two" (masculine and feminine form respectively) as compared to Demotic Arabic tnēn and tintēn (from Proto-Semitic *ṯnaimi and *ṯnataimi). Cf. also Aramic tiny‚n‚ "the second one", without the shift.[/QUOTE]

Slovak, is the trilled 'R' older than the soft 'R'?

Delodephius 08-14-2011 04:02 AM

I don't anyone has ever asked that question. In my own opinion I think they're pretty much the same age. All phonemes producible by the human mouth are approximately of the same age. This is a fact since all humans can reproduce a sound from any language anywhere else on Earth. This means that when humans were still living in Africa they already [U][B]had the capability[/B][/U] to produce all the sounds that today exist in any language.

Onur 08-14-2011 05:44 AM

You are wrong again Mr. professor.

Not all languages contains all the phonemes. Some languages has more sounds than others and these languages are more vocal and richer in terms of phonemes. Yes, everyone can reproduce any sound but they simply don't, if a particular sound doesn't exist in their language. So, the people in Africa was only producing the phonemes and sounds which existed in their own language, not all of them. They didn't produce all the sounds, they only produced the ones they have heard from the people around them.

For example, French phoneme "Uu" doesn't exist in English, therefore a monolingual English speaker cannot properly produce that sound without doing a practice and self training because they never use it in their own language. If an English speaker never hears a foreign language, then that means, probably he doesn't even aware of the existence of "Uu" sound as in French.

Afaik, Uralic/Altaic languages with vowel harmony are the richest languages in terms of phonemes and sound changes. For example, we have the exact same sound as in French "U" in Turkish. We also have several more phonemes which doesn't exist in most IE languages, like Turkish "soft G; Ğğ" and "Iı". Also, the sound of some of the vowels in Turkish changes according to the consonant above and the one following it. It softens, rounds, stays same or becomes unrounded. These examples of Turkish are also valid for all Uralic/Altaic languages.

No one can know the age of these phonemes but some should be older, most likely "Aa, Ee" sounds.

[B][I]Edit: [/I][/B]

French "Uu" sound training for English speakers;
[url=]French sound U - YouTube[/url]

Turkish words with "Iı" phoneme;
[url=]LETTER "I" IN TURKISH ALPHABET - YouTube[/url]

Delodephius 08-14-2011 01:16 PM

To which of my posts are you responding? It's not in this thread as far as I see.

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