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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Soldier of Macedon 01-16-2011 06:57 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]Not sure if this word is a loanword from Macedonian since we haven't enough evidences in which language is attested this word firstly.

I checked up in my dictionary for the exact meanings of 'Qeleshe' and it wrote that 'Qel' is not limited to denote only 'forehead' but even the upper part of head. For example, 'Qel' in Albanian means also 'bald-headed' which corresponds roughly with the part of head covered by 'Plis'.[/QUOTE]
See below for 'bald, bare':

[url]http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/ielex/PokornyMaster.html[/url]

(PIE) keleuo - (Maced.) kelav/kjelav - (Croat.) chelav

The word 'chelo' may perhaps come from this word as the forehead is bare. But, as it is present in all Slavic languages, and as Albanian already has a word for 'forehead' (balle), it cannot be a loan into Slavic languages.
[QUOTE]Actually I cannot bring any direct image of Illyrian hat discovered on archeological places of Illyrians because I have not the book of Alexander Stipcevic (I gave it to a mate of mine). But as far as I know, Illyrian cap did not differ much from Roman ones.[/QUOTE]
I will have to clarify a point I made earlier when you stated that many 'southern Illyrians' are depicted wearing the skull-cap. Although Zenica is hardly in the 'south' of Illyria, the archaeological remains from that area are included in the 'southern Illyrian group' by John Wilkes - in case that is what you were making reference to with 'southern Illyrians'.
[QUOTE]While I was searching for the origin of Albanian cap, I found also this one that may bring some more light on the question[/QUOTE]
Worthy of further discussion.

Epirot 01-16-2011 09:51 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;86278]S. Although Zenica is hardly in the 'south' of Illyria, the archaeological remains from that area are included in the 'southern Illyrian group' by John Wilkes - in case that is what you were making reference to with 'southern Illyrians'.
[/QUOTE]

If I am not mistaken, in Dyrrachium (modern Albanian city of Durrės) during archeological excavations were brought in light some reliefs showing an Illyrian man that wore a cap, which does not differ much from Albanian one (judging from its form). I'll try to find it if I can and to post here!

Ottoman 02-12-2011 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;74928]I only have the part where it relates Albania as PDF file but it`s in Turkish.
[/QUOTE]

You and me can translate it in English, you got a link?

Voltron 02-12-2011 03:37 PM

Do we have any words from Caucasian Albania that suggests that Albanians may have been descended from there ?

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Ancient_countries_of_Transcaucasia.jpg[/IMG]

George S. 02-12-2011 07:15 PM

If you do a search that's one of the theories that say that the modern albanians are not descended from the illyrians but from albania in asia in the sixth or seventh century.

Onur 02-13-2011 07:37 AM

We don't know anything for sure but these "coincidences" raising some questions.

[QUOTE=Onur;67387]
There is a computer program which analyzes the 138 different typological characters and a vocabulary of languages. It finds the similarities of the different languages and draws a table according to the results.

The result diagram shows Albanian language between Romanian and modern Greek in terms of grammar features but as for vocabulary, it puts Albanian between Persian(which has a lot of common words with Arabic today) and eastern Armenian/modern Greek;
[/QUOTE]


Check where was historical Albania in Caucasus and see who were their neighbors. Iranians and Armenians. And see which languages are most closest to Albanian language in my post above. Persian and eastern Armenian.

We also know that muslim Arabs invaded Caucasus Albania in 8th century and check what Evliya Celebi said about Albanians; Some tribes with muslim Arab leaders among them, migrated in to the Balkans and mixed with Frankish people(Latin languages, peoples) in there and thats how today`s Albanians born. That was what Albanians said to Evliya Celebi in 17th century.

Pelister 02-13-2011 09:22 PM

[QUOTE=Onur;88964]We don't know anything for sure but these "coincidences" raising some questions.




Check where was historical Albania in Caucasus and see who were their neighbors. Iranians and Armenians. And see which languages are most closest to Albanian language in my post above. Persian and eastern Armenian.

We also know that muslim Arabs invaded Caucasus Albania in 8th century and check what Evliya Celebi said about Albanians; Some tribes with muslim Arab leaders among them, migrated in to the Balkans and mixed with Frankish people(Latin languages, peoples) in there and thats how today`s Albanians born. That was what Albanians said to Evliya Celebi in 17th century.[/QUOTE]

It explains the heavy Latin element in the Albanian language but it is the Arabic words that are the most interesting.

Sovius 02-13-2011 11:04 PM

[QUOTE=Voltron;88921]Do we have any words from Caucasian Albania that suggests that Albanians may have been descended from there ?

[/QUOTE]



[B]identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:[/B]

Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti (Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia (Turkish term: "iron gates"; term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea or arch: Albanian Sea)
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish (Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river) (Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria


[B]of interest, as well:[/B]
-Gogo is a very common male name in Georgia and Albania
-Keko in Georgia female and male name in Albania.
-Shqiptars:mother=Nona, and in Georgia is female name.
-Gruzians: mother=deda ;Shqiptars Deda= male name.

[B]Source and additional observations and evidence:[/B]
[url]http://my.opera.com/macedonianneighbourhood/blog/show.dml/4235614[/url]

As a complex amalgamation of a number of very different languages, it may be more conducive for linguistic researchers and people researching the history of what came to be referred to as Albania to view this language as a creole language. Simply having Indo-European characteristics doesn't make it Indo-European in my opinion.

Voltron 02-14-2011 04:58 AM

Nice Post Sovius, Do you know if the Caucausian theory is being accepted lately ? I mean the wording connection seems more than coiincidence. What about toponyms in Albania ?

Il also try to read up on them, Albania is really is a unique case in the balkans. Their uniqueness is the reasons Albanians give regarding their Illyrian heritage, but Im not so sure anymore. Il see if I can find Byzantine records of them.

Ottoman 02-14-2011 05:09 AM

Im having discussions with Albanians on Facebook and they all think Alexander was Albanian and he is their father, when I dropped the name Evliya Celebi they didnt know who that was, how strange, since Evliya Celebi is a world known person.

Maybe they dont want to know him. :)


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