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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Frank 07-27-2010 07:22 AM

If the modern Greeks and Albanians can claim lineage to the ancients and declare it themselves then why are the modern Macedonians denied the same

That is all I got to say.

Soldier of Macedon 07-27-2010 08:04 AM

Frank, that much is obvious and we all agree, but let's keep the thread for discussion on the topic mate.

Toska 07-27-2010 08:05 AM

what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.

Toska 07-27-2010 08:07 AM

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement[/url]

In 19th century Europe, liberalism and nationalism were ideologies which came to the forefront of political culture. In Eastern Europe, where the Habsburg Empire had long asserted control over a variety of ethnic and cultural groups, nationalism appeared in a standard format. The beginning of the 19th century "was the period when the smaller, mostly Slavic nationalities of the empire - Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Ukrainians - remembered their historical traditions, revived their native tongues as literary languages, reappropriated their traditions and folklore, in short reasserted their existence as nations."[2] [B]This revival of national heritage encompasses the Illyrian Movement in Croatia.[/B]

Toska 07-27-2010 08:41 AM

Count George Brankovic (1645-1711), self-proclaimed 'Despot of Illyria'


Count George Brankovic has proclaimed himself 'Despot of Illyria', a state that would include all 'Illyrian, Thracian, Moesian and other Eastern lands, the lands of St Sava, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia, Sirmia and other lands of Hungarian Kingdom'.

"After he had got a certificate from Patriarch Arsenie, which confirmed his descent of Serbain Despot family Brankovic, in order to proclaim himself [B]despot of independent Illyrian[/B] state under the name of Despot George Brankovic II, he informed Emperor Leopold I about the idea. His plans were declined by the Austrian Court and he was given the title of count instead.

"After proclaiming the invitation to the Serbian people to follow him as their despot, and to start a struggle for freedom against the Turks, he was captured in Kladovo in 1689 by Austrian authorities and held captive until he died in 1711."

DUŠAN J. POPOVIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1690. (Great Migration of Serbs in 1690), Belgrade 1954.
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic, Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Cardinal Leopold Kollonich (1631-1707), [B]Minister of State and Privy imperial councilor, names the arrived Serbs as 'Illyrians or Rascians[/B]' in 1706:

Cardinal Kollonich wrote to Emperor Leopold I in 1706 that the Privileges allowing the freedom of Orthodox religion cannot be allowed, and that Serbs cannot be allowed to remain in their "schismatic" faith, and continues : "... it has to be done in a quiet and silent way so that all these Illyrian or Rascian people can be brought to union with Roman Church, from which it merely differs at all."

RADOSLAV M. GRUJIĆ, Како се поступало са српским молбама на двору цесара Австријског последње године живота патријарха Арсенија III Црнојевића (The way Serbian pledges were treated on the Court of Austrian Caesar during the last year of life of Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1906.

--------------

Serbian national Privileges in Habsburg Monarchy were titled to
[B]'Illyrian [/B]nation'


Front page of the first printed version of Serbian Privileges in 1715, Vienna:

PRIVILEGIA
PER
DIVOS
IMPERATORES
LEOPOLDUM
ET
JOSEPHUM
GLORIOSISSIMĆ REMINISCENTIĆ
NEC NON
MODERNAM REGNANTEM
MAJESTATEM,
CAROLUM VI.
INCLYTĆ
NATIONI ILLYRICĆ

[B]'ILLYRIO SERBICA 1683-1715 (1723)' papers, Haus, Hof u. Staat. Archiv Wien[/B]
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Sava Tekelija (also: Tököli Száva, 1761-1841)
the leader of Illyrian political thought of his time


In 1804 Sava Tekelija sent a Memorandum to Emperor Napoleon I, proposing the creation of a [B]vast Illyran Kingdom - a large South Slav[/B] state that would, under the auspices of France, encompass the most of the Serb and Slav-inhabited Balkan regions. A year later, Tekelija sent a similar, slightly revised project to the Habsburg Emperor Francis I.

S. TEKELIJA, Opisanije života (Biography), Beograd: Prosveta 1966, pp. 171-187, 379-396.

---------------

This one was very interesting.....

When they, supported by Europe, unite into a large Illyrian Kingdom that would join together Bosnia, Bulgaria, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, Dubrovnik and Serb-inhabited areas of Hungary with Serbia, this kingdom will be a powerful barrier against those powers, namely Austria and Russia, that would try to establish their domination in the Balkans. However, in a similar memorandum submitted to Emperor Franz I in 1805, Count Tekelija mentioned only Russia as a potential threat to the Balkans.

S. GAVRILOVIĆ, Vojvodina i Srbija u vreme prvog srpskog ustanka (Vojvodina and Serbia during the Serbian Uprising I), Novi Sad: Institut za istoriju 1974 pp.20-24.

-------

Official languages of Dukedom Serbia and Tamis Banat in 1849


When Dukedom (Vojvodina) of Serbia and Tamis Banat was established in 1849, Serbian language, which became official beside German, was named [B]'Illyrian':[/B]

The two official languages of the province were German and [B]"Illyrian"[/B] (what would become Serbo-Croatian).

Wikipedia, Vojvodina of Serbia and Tamiš Banat -> en.wikipedia.org ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina_of_Serbia_and_Tami%C5%A1_Banat[/url])

Epirot 07-27-2010 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=Toska;65049]what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.[/QUOTE]

Hi Toska,

Indeed there are documents that do provide Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves [I]Illirski[/I] or their language [I]Illirski Jazik[/I] but we must search what was the essence of '[I]Illirski[/I]' at that time!? The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one). In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Blue"]Between 600 and 650 the main body of the immigrants occupied Illyria[/COLOR][/B] (see Servia: History; and Slavs). [B][COLOR="blue"]It consisted of Croats and Serbs, two groups of tribes who spoke a single language and were so closely related that the origin of the distinction between them is obscure.[/COLOR][/B] The Croats settled in the western half of Illyria, the Serbs in the eastern; [COLOR="blue"][B]thus the former came gradually under the influence of Italy and Roman Catholicism[/B][/COLOR], the latter under the influence of Byzantium and the Greek Church. Hence the distinction between them became a marked difference of civilization and creed, which has always tended to keep the Illyrian Slavs politically disunited.

[B][COLOR="blue"]The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. [/COLOR][/B]But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see Dalmatia: Population; and Vlachs), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries. [COLOR="Red"][B]The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized.[/B][/COLOR] [B][U]With these exceptions[/U] Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.[/B]

[url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/EB1911/Illyria*.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Conclusions:

1) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian in administrative manner not ethnic one
2) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian because the churches of western Balkan makes places in dioceses of Illyricum.

Here I'd like to post thoughts of one of the best living authorities on Illyrians, Alexander Stipceviç:

[QUOTE]I[COLOR="red"][B]n the first half of the 19th century, the title Illyrian acquired a clear political function among the Croats.[/B][/COLOR] The leaders of the Croatian national movement called themselves "Illyrians" (Ilirci). Moreover, the theory of the Illyrian origin of the Croats was at this time embodied in academic form by Ljudevit Gaj, the greatest ideologue of the national movement. It was hi who published a book entitled "Who Were the Old Illyrians?"(3) This treated the question from a historical angle, but which political aims. [COLOR="red"][B]Gay knew full well that any theory of a direct descent of today’s Croats from the old Illyrians was somehow an exaggeration.[/B][/COLOR] [B]However, he believed that [U]the name Illyrian would be the cement binding together the South Slavs[/U] in a new cultural and economic entity and a powerful political alliance that could confront the age-old enemies of the South Slav peoples.[/B]

[B][COLOR="Red"]The Illyrian ideology of the Croatian national movement was leavened with same doubtful ideas[/COLOR][/B]. [COLOR="Blue"]It was not by chance that, after initial enthusiasm, critics of the idea grasped its weak points and easly refuted Gaj’s basic thesis of the South Slavs[/COLOR].

[...][COLOR="blue"][B]As time passed, the idea of a direct link between the Illyrians and the Croats was gradually abandoned[/B].[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][B]It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the final blow to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs.[/B][/COLOR] In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that [B]the South Slavs could not be considered the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians, but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a long and complicated ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs.[/B]

[url]http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 07-27-2010 11:39 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]That's untrue. Albanians claimed Illyrian (and sometimes Epirotic) parentage much early than 19th century. Kara Mahmud Bushati (of Bushatlli dynasty - a noble northern Albanian family: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Bushati[/url]) established a kind of alliance between Albanian local lords of Northern Albania, Montenegro and Hercegovina. It was called 'Illyrian confederacy' though it was short-lived for many objective reason.[/QUOTE]
According to the link Bushati was alive during the second half of the 18th century, around the same time that the German writer first proposed the idea of an Illyrian connection for the Albanians. These two events may or may not be related. However, there is not a single citation or source in the Wikipedia link to the article. Is there any evidence that Bushati claimed to be an Illyrian himself, which is recorded in documents and such? Any record of an 'Illyrian confederacy'? The name wouldn't suprise me too much in this regard, as the majority of Bushati's realm appears to be Montenegrin and Bosnian rather than Albanian. We both know that the former, along with the Serbs and particularly the Croats, fashioned an Illyrian tradition and heritage that is recorded in a number of medieval documents.
[QUOTE].......many Byzantine chroniclers attributed an Illyrian origin for Albanians.[/QUOTE]
Which writers? Can you cite the sources and quotations?

In my opinion, from what I have seen, references to an Epirot/Albanian connection appear more frequent than those with Illyrians. Would you agree? What does Barletti say?

Big Bad Sven 07-28-2010 01:07 AM

In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia.

Soldier of Macedon 07-28-2010 03:05 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one).[/QUOTE]
Illyricum, as a Roman administrative unit, disappeared centuries before relevant Latin and German documents were making reference to the 'Slavs' as Illyrians. Furthermore, the Illyrian name was too broad, even in antiquity, to have been a single 'ethnic' designate, although I do believe that most Illyrians were of the same linguistic family. So the reason you have provided does not validate the point you're trying to make. If the 'Slavs' were labelled Illyrians due to the territories they lived in, can you provide other examples of people that lived in the same area and during the same period being labelled Illyrians? Can you provide examples of the same people, be they Albanian, Vlach or other, having their language known as Illyrian?
[QUOTE]In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that the Illyrian name was a synonym for 'West Balkan Christians'? If so, in what era was this the case? Can you clarify and corroborate with some examples and sources?
[QUOTE]The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized.[/QUOTE]
That is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Furthermore, it goes against the grain of your own historical reality - how can Albanians remain untouched by both Romans and 'Slavs' yet the majority of the Albanian language consists of words foreign to the native Albanian tongue? How do you think this came about?
[QUOTE]It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the [B]final blow[/B] to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs. In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that the South [B]Slavs could [U]not be considered the direct descendants[/U] of the ancient Illyrians[/B], but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a [B]long and complicated [U]ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians[/U] but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs[/B].

[url]http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
What do you consider the 'final blow' in the above general opinion of Sulek? I don't see how the underlined parts diminish the Illyrian heritage of Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnians. Hardly a 'final blow' in my opinion, in fact, it is realistic and accepting of historical reality, if read logically and in proper context.

Do you think Celts, Goths, etc overlooked the region of today's Albania? Do you think the Albanian ethnos didn't undergo its own ethnogenetic process? There is more than one interpretation of 'direct' descent, what exactly do you consider it as?

makedonin 07-28-2010 04:43 AM

Here is a [URL="http://books.google.de/books?id=CekIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Illyrisch+deutsches+und+deutsch+illyrisches#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Illyrian-German and German-Illyrian dictionary[/URL].

Here is part of the introduction of the above mentioned dictionary!

[QUOTE]Introduction

Illirian language is spoken as mother tongue not only in Austria, but also in other foreighn conuntries, specially in the Turkish countries, where we find more than fife milion people who use the language as mother toungue.

In non other language of any people we don't finde more dialectics that are easy comprehendable between each other, as we find in the Illyrian.

The ancient name Illyricum finds its beginning somewhere about 13th Centur BC. The Illyrian language is today spoken in all those countries that are listed on the Cover (Croatia, Slavonia, Srem, Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Dubrovnik, Montenegro, Herzegovina, Banat, Ungaria etc.) with very small variation in the dialects.

Apart from the mentioned countries and provinces, the there are languages who has their beginning in the Illyrian language, which are found in Kraina, Primoria, Czechia, Moravia, Slezia, Poland and Russia.

They are all of the Illyrian stock, speak the one and the same basis of the same language, and are differable only in the dialects.[/QUOTE]

It at least gives a picture of what they meant by Illyrian language.


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