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-   -   Exposing Bulgarian Myths and Lies (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4150)

Liberator of Makedonija 04-01-2018 05:07 AM

A clearer photo

[IMG]https://vgy.me/KcLUXR.jpg[/IMG]

Bill77 04-13-2018 08:27 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172637]Best I got.


[IMG]https://vgy.me/bnmrRU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Am i correct in thinking this photo was taken during world war 2, where Hitler would have still been alive?

Liberator of Makedonija 04-13-2018 07:50 PM

[QUOTE=Bill77;172846]Am i correct in thinking this photo was taken during world war 2, where Hitler would have still been alive?[/QUOTE]

It was taken following the Bulgarian occupation of Skopje

Bill77 04-13-2018 10:38 PM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172853]It was taken following the Bulgarian occupation of Skopje[/QUOTE] Then it would have been before Tito became a leader.

This photo is circling a lot lately around social media during discussions in the latest name dispute. It only just occurred to me, that banner, map of the whole of Macedonia........ doesn't do well to the Greeks (who love spreading this image) propaganda on Macedonians being created by Tito.

Karposh 04-14-2018 08:13 PM

[QUOTE]


[IMG]https://vgy.me/bnmrRU.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Bill77;172855]Then it would have been before Tito became a leader.

This photo is circling a lot lately around social media during discussions in the latest name dispute. It only just occurred to me, that banner, map of the whole of Macedonia........ doesn't do well to the Greeks (who love spreading this image) propaganda on Macedonians being created by Tito.[/QUOTE]

Does anyone know for certain which is the original photo and which is the photo-shopped one?

If the sign “One people, one king, one kingdom” was actually photo-shopped in, then that explains quite a lot. I too have seen this photo doing the rounds at various places where it's been used as evidence to show people's true sympathies regarding the Bulgarian occupation. “Bulgarian occupation” in the sense that, today, we know that is exactly what it was. In the minds of the naïve Macedonians, that came out to welcome the Bulgarians and pose with them for photos, they would have regarded them as saviours from the intolerable Serbian repression and the possible next step to Macedonian re-unification. ..And, if Hitler was the guy to bring that about, then so be it.

The division of Macedonia would still have been fresh in their minds at this time – Only 30 years since the Balkan wars and 40 years since the Ilinden Uprising. In addition, they would have been well aware that IMRO was still very active in Bulgaria while it was being persecuted by the Serbs in “Vardar Banovina” or “Southern Serbia”.

So, in the context of all this, coupled with the photo of a united Macedonia standing alone, with no Bulgaria in sight, it would be understandable from a Bulgarian point of view (and a Greek view) if someone wanted to photo-shop a sign in that suggests kinship with the invading Bulgarians.

Niko777 04-14-2018 10:30 PM

[QUOTE=Karposh;172862]Does anyone know for certain which is the original photo and which is the photo-shopped one?

If the sign “One people, one king, one kingdom” was actually photo-shopped in, then that explains quite a lot. I too have seen this photo doing the rounds at various places where it's been used as evidence to show people's true sympathies regarding the Bulgarian occupation. “Bulgarian occupation” in the sense that, today, we know that is exactly what it was. In the minds of the naïve Macedonians, that came out to welcome the Bulgarians and pose with them for photos, they would have regarded them as saviours from the intolerable Serbian repression and the possible next step to Macedonian re-unification. ..And, if Hitler was the guy to bring that about, then so be it.

The division of Macedonia would still have been fresh in their minds at this time – Only 30 years since the Balkan wars and 40 years since the Ilinden Uprising. In addition, they would have been well aware that IMRO was still very active in Bulgaria while it was being persecuted by the Serbs in “Vardar Banovina” or “Southern Serbia”.

So, in the context of all this, coupled with the photo of a united Macedonia standing alone, with no Bulgaria in sight, it would be understandable from a Bulgarian point of view (and a Greek view) if someone wanted to photo-shop a sign in that suggests kinship with the invading Bulgarians.[/QUOTE]

The photo with the sign is the real one.

Liberator of Makedonija 04-15-2018 02:41 AM

[QUOTE=Niko777;172863]The photo with the sign is the real one.[/QUOTE]

So many Maso's say it's fake

Karposh 04-15-2018 04:27 AM

[QUOTE=Niko777;172863]The photo with the sign is the real one.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the reply Niko. I had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the photo with the sign either but now that some conjecture has been thrown onto it, I felt I needed confirmation from someone who might know. Do you mind if I ask how you know it is the original one as you seem to have responded with some authority and confidence there.

tchaiku 04-15-2018 04:46 AM

[QUOTE=Karposh;172866]Thanks for the reply Niko. I had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the photo with the sign either but now that some conjecture has been thrown onto it, I felt I needed confirmation from someone who might know. Do you mind if I ask how you know it is the original one as you seem to have responded with some authority and confidence there.[/QUOTE]

I wonder who is holding the map up.

Niko777 04-15-2018 12:12 PM

[QUOTE=Karposh;172866]Thanks for the reply Niko. I had no reason to doubt the authenticity of the photo with the sign either but now that some conjecture has been thrown onto it, I felt I needed confirmation from someone who might know. Do you mind if I ask how you know it is the original one as you seem to have responded with some authority and confidence there.[/QUOTE]

The first time I saw the photo was with the sign. The other appeared years after on some Macedonian facebook group. The sign fits into the ideology of the Bulgarian occupation at the time. They were trying to make Macedonians think they are liberators who will unite Macedonia. They did the same thing in Lerin. Unification would later be followed by annexation, hence the slogan "One nation, one king, one kingdom". Not sure why this is so hard for people today to understand.

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172865]So many Maso's say it's fake[/QUOTE]

Tell your friends on facebook that by censoring/photoshoping images they are only giving more strength to our enemies and damaging the Macedonian cause, not the other way around.

tchaiku 04-15-2018 02:46 PM

The Photoshopper did a great job it is hard to see any evidence but really how is that banner standing up?

Niko777 04-15-2018 03:50 PM

One more thing. Whoever removed the sign from the photo AND [U]said this photo was taken in Skopje[/U] was lying. Here is a higher resolution photo. The building on the right is the church Sveta Sofiya in Sofia, Bulgaria.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZIYYe1UMAA7Cj9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.tourism-bg.net/obekti/img/sofia_sveta_sofia/img/img_3.jpg[/IMG]

Karposh 04-15-2018 04:30 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;172874]The first time I saw the photo was with the sign. The other appeared years after on some Macedonian facebook group. The sign fits into the ideology of the Bulgarian occupation at the time. They were trying to make Macedonians think they are liberators who will unite Macedonia. They did the same thing in Lerin. Unification would later be followed by annexation, hence the slogan "One nation, one king, one kingdom". Not sure why this is so hard for people today to understand.



Tell your friends on facebook that by censoring/photoshoping images they are only giving more strength to our enemies and damaging the Macedonian cause, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Niko777;172876]One more thing. Whoever removed the sign from the photo AND [U]said this photo was taken in Skopje[/U] was lying. Here is a higher resolution photo. The building on the right is the church Sveta Sofiya in Sofia, Bulgaria.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZIYYe1UMAA7Cj9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.tourism-bg.net/obekti/img/sofia_sveta_sofia/img/img_3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]


Perfect! That's exactly what I was looking for Niko - some context and some informed background information. Case closed on this Bulgarian propaganda piece of crap!!!

Liberator of Makedonija 04-16-2018 12:48 AM

The other signs look like they are written in Latin though? The one is question is written in Cyrllic.

Bill77 04-16-2018 01:12 AM

[QUOTE=Niko777;172876]ying. Here is a higher resolution photo. The building on the right is the church Sveta Sofiya in Sofia, Bulgaria.

[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DZIYYe1UMAA7Cj9.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://www.tourism-bg.net/obekti/img/sofia_sveta_sofia/img/img_3.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] Great work Niko

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172879]The other signs look like they are written in Latin though? The one is question is written in Cyrllic.[/QUOTE] And well picked up LOM.

Great investigating lads...... thumbs up to you both.

Liberator of Makedonija 04-16-2018 02:42 AM

Does anyone else find it weird that the other signs are written in Latin but the one that is debated whether it is or authentic or not is written in Cyrillic?

vicsinad 04-16-2018 07:15 AM

Good work, Niko.

The sign is being held up by a small thin pole, as is the case with the sign in the left of the photo.

It's not uncommon to have signs in different languages and different scripts at protests, rallies and demonstrations.

Liberator of Makedonija 04-16-2018 09:17 AM

[QUOTE=vicsinad;172882]Good work, Niko.

The sign is being held up by a small thin pole, as is the case with the sign in the left of the photo.

It's not uncommon to have signs in different languages and different scripts at protests, rallies and demonstrations.[/QUOTE]

It does seem a little uncommon in 1940s Balkans to be honest.

Niko777 04-16-2018 09:55 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172883]It does seem a little uncommon in 1940s Balkans to be honest.[/QUOTE]


I'm assuming the Latin sign on the right in written in Italian and you can even see apart of the Italian flag during WWII (see below), and the sign on the left is written in German. Bulgaria allied itself with these countries during the war. The soldiers in the photo are probably German and Italian.

[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29.svg/125px-Flag_of_Italy_%281861-1946%29.svg.png[/IMG]

Liberator of Makedonija 04-16-2018 10:26 AM

Can anyone shed light on this? I believe I can confirm that a standard literary form of Bulgarian was not established until 1899 but can't find any information on these supposed other writing systems that were used in place up until then.

[IMG]https://vgy.me/UUDQLo.jpg[/IMG]

Risto the Great 04-16-2018 07:38 PM

Does it matter? Greek was only finally codified in 1977.

Liberator of Makedonija 04-17-2018 01:05 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;172891]Does it matter? Greek was only finally codified in 1977.[/QUOTE]

Don't think it's a matter of that.

Risto the Great 04-17-2018 03:57 AM

You're wondering why they had a few goes at it?

Liberator of Makedonija 05-30-2018 10:55 PM

Article on the history of the Bulgarian label and how modern Bulgaria has twisted its historical meaning:

[url]http://www.wmc-a.com/history-of-the-bulgarian-label/[/url]

maco2envy 06-02-2018 08:32 PM

Okay back to this picture:

[IMG]https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34065896_199585190675918_6116949318394970112_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=42c5307c3f191eab6f5fa91cc2261efb&oe=5BBBE396[/IMG]

And looking at:

[IMG]https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34108599_199585254009245_4305459798024912896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=995e9b30c6d2e06b0611549d5319c0cb&oe=5BBCEDD2[/IMG]

It's pretty obvious that the location of the photo is in Sophia, Bulgaria, or more precisely here:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/oBAJAAX.jpg[/IMG]

Is it possible for someone with a background in digital image forensics to do some analysis on:
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bulgarian_Macedonians.jpg[/IMG]
to see whether the sign is cropped, the above image is the one wikipedia uses.

For example as an amature, I ran an ELA program and got this:
[IMG]http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=5952c3bc8df82c095a482d280f9e3b7a9f8d1c76.43191&fmt=ela[/IMG]
Now given that the banner with united macedonia is a flat surface, we have the fact: "Regardless of the actual color of the surface, all flat surfaces should have about the same coloring under ELA" (Source: Fotoforenics). This is obviously not the case with that sign in question.

Also we need to update this wikipedia articles that make incorrect reference to the image:

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II[/URL]

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia[/URL]

tchaiku 06-03-2018 01:45 AM

Did you saw the post from Niko?
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=172876#post172876[/url]

maco2envy 06-03-2018 02:36 AM

Yes, Niko pinpointed the true location of the photo, although we still don't have solid evidence that the 'one nation, one king, one kingdom' sign is fake. This is being interpreted by the Bulgarians as Macedonians being pro-unification with Bulgaria (see those wikipedia articles I posted)

One of those two photos aren't real (or even both). In the end, I don't think it really matter whether the sign is real or fake, but the most important thing is that the photo was taken in the Bulgarian capital and not Macedonia, as Niko pointed out.

Edit: Yeah I think Niko is correct, It seems that the photo without the sign has nothing with higher resolution on the internet which indicates it's most likely fake. Regardless, the Bulgarians are putting their sick twist on it.

Liberator of Makedonija 06-03-2018 03:05 AM

[QUOTE=maco2envy;173662]Okay back to this picture:

[IMG]https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34065896_199585190675918_6116949318394970112_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=42c5307c3f191eab6f5fa91cc2261efb&oe=5BBBE396[/IMG]

And looking at:

[IMG]https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/34108599_199585254009245_4305459798024912896_n.jpg?_nc_cat=0&oh=995e9b30c6d2e06b0611549d5319c0cb&oe=5BBCEDD2[/IMG]

It's pretty obvious that the location of the photo is in Sophia, Bulgaria, or more precisely here:
[IMG]https://i.imgur.com/oBAJAAX.jpg[/IMG]

Is it possible for someone with a background in digital image forensics to do some analysis on:
[IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8d/Bulgarian_Macedonians.jpg[/IMG]
to see whether the sign is cropped, the above image is the one wikipedia uses.

For example as an amature, I ran an ELA program and got this:
[IMG]http://fotoforensics.com/analysis.php?id=5952c3bc8df82c095a482d280f9e3b7a9f8d1c76.43191&fmt=ela[/IMG]
Now given that the banner with united macedonia is a flat surface, we have the fact: "Regardless of the actual color of the surface, all flat surfaces should have about the same coloring under ELA" (Source: Fotoforenics). This is obviously not the case with that sign in question.

Also we need to update this wikipedia articles that make incorrect reference to the image:

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Bulgaria_during_World_War_II[/URL]

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_in_Yugoslav_Macedonia[/URL][/QUOTE]



So what are these findings suggesting?

maco2envy 06-03-2018 03:07 AM

Nothing really apart from the location of the photo which was already discussed. The sign is likely to be real

maco2envy 06-03-2018 03:19 AM

Actually Niko's finding indicate the following academic source is incorrect and maybe some of its accompanying references:

[QUOTE]When German troops advanced into Vardar (Yugoslav) Macedonia in April 1941, the Macedonians greeted the victors with great enthusiasm. Crowds [B]in Skopie[/B], the provincial capital, displayed a banner which, paraphrasing the German slogan, hailed the unification of Macedonia and Bulgaria:[B] “One people, one Tsar, one kingdom.”[/B] [1] The citizens gave an even more tumultuous welcome to the Bulgarian troops that entered Macedonia on April 19, 1941. [2] The warm reception accorded the Bulgarian soldiers was in large part the result of Macedonian resentment at three decades of Serbian dominance. “Administrative brutality, Serbian chauvinism, political corruption, and economic exploitation were more flagrant in Macedonia than in any other part of Yugoslavia.”[/QUOTE]

Page 123 of Bulgaria during the Second World War by Marshall Lee Miller. This is the source that was referenced in the wikipedia articles
Edit: url for the book: [URL="http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mmb/mmb_2.htm#11_2"]http://macedonia.kroraina.com/en/mmb/mmb_2.htm#11_2[/URL]

Carlin 06-09-2018 09:54 PM

[url=https://imgur.com/g6LjYFM][img]http://i.imgur.com/g6LjYFM.png[/img][/url]

Liberator of Makedonija 06-17-2018 03:39 AM

VMRO document depicting the Bulgarian flag, real or fake?

[IMG]https://vgy.me/qkJjcg.jpg[/IMG]

Bill77 06-17-2018 04:20 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;174058]VMRO document depicting the Bulgarian flag, real or fake?

[IMG]https://vgy.me/qkJjcg.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]How is that the Bulgarian flag? Because it has horizontal tricolors?

This has been discussed before. Being of non-colour document, Have a look at the shades and work out what is wrong with it being the Bulgarian flag.


But more importantly, a more relevant and serious issue..... what's your opinion on the name change agreement?
You have not posted once (well not in recent times) in the "Name Change Agreed to be Greece and Macedonia" thread.

Liberator of Makedonija 06-17-2018 05:25 AM

[QUOTE=Bill77;174068]How is that the Bulgarian flag? Because it has horizontal tricolors?

This has been discussed before. Being of non-colour document, Have a look at the shades and work out what is wrong with it being the Bulgarian flag.


But more importantly, a more relevant and serious issue..... what's your opinion on the name change agreement?
You have not posted once (well not in recent times) in the "Name Change Agreed to be Greece and Macedonia" thread.[/QUOTE]


If it is not the Bulgarian flag, which flag is it?

Also that isn't relevant to this thread so will not answer here but can't handle that thread anymore, it's too stressful.

Bill77 06-17-2018 05:58 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;174080]If it is not the Bulgarian flag, which flag is it?

Also that isn't relevant to this thread so will not answer here but can't handle that thread anymore, it's too stressful.[/QUOTE] Obviously, it was a VMRO flag. The question is, what colors were those horizontal tricolors.
Being a non-colored image...... all you can work on is tones. In a black and white or monochrome image, white, or yellow would look the same. Therefore, the top horizontal portion of this suggested Bulgarian flag is inconclusive. But what is more conclusive (to me anyway), is the bottom horizontal portion of the flag in that document. It is very dark, and very distinctive to the center portion. In a black and white image, Green and Red (as in the Bulgarian flag), would not have tones that far apart. The bottom horizontal portion looks extremely dark, therefore its more likely than not to be "Black". And black represents "Smrt" as in the motto "Sloboda ili Smrt" which would make more sense in it being black.

I hope i made sense.

Also, i didn't expect you to answer my second question in this thread, i was just curious as to why i can't find your opinion with this naming saga in the appropriate thread.

Liberator of Makedonija 06-17-2018 09:40 AM

[QUOTE=Bill77;174084]Obviously, it was a VMRO flag. The question is, what colors were those horizontal tricolors.
Being a non-colored image...... all you can work on is tones. In a black and white or monochrome image, white, or yellow would look the same. Therefore, the top horizontal portion of this suggested Bulgarian flag is inconclusive. But what is more conclusive (to me anyway), is the bottom horizontal portion of the flag in that document. It is very dark, and very distinctive to the center portion. In a black and white image, Green and Red (as in the Bulgarian flag), would not have tones that far apart. The bottom horizontal portion looks extremely dark, therefore its more likely than not to be "Black". And black represents "Smrt" as in the motto "Sloboda ili Smrt" which would make more sense in it being black.

I hope i made sense.

Also, i didn't expect you to answer my second question in this thread, i was just curious as to why i can't find your opinion with this naming saga in the appropriate thread.[/QUOTE]


Interesting viewpoint, the only thing that doesn't convince me is that I have never seen a VMRO flag/banner that is tricolour in nature and so it makes it hard for me to believe this isn't the flag of another country, whether that be Bulgaria or even Russia. I do agree that the bottom line appears too dark to be red which would mean that it cannot be the Bulgarian flag. Would love to know what the flag is meant to be, see if we can dig up some more.

I hear about the name-change every day and I don't think there's anything I can say in that thread that hasn't already been said, I'm just as aggrovated as everyone one.

Carlin 07-12-2018 11:36 PM

The following comes from a Bulgarian book "Factors of the Bulgarian Revival 1600-1830" written by Hristo Gandev.

According to the testimony of Peter Bogdan, who visited the city of Tarnovo in [B]1640[/B], [B]the citizens spoke [U]as much Greek[/U] as they did Bulgarian[/B]. Significant is Bogdan's surprise and explanation in this case. He says:

[COLOR="Blue"][B]"[B]The Bulgarians preserve this Greek tongue in Bulgaria[/B], and Greece is far from Tarnovo. I believe that since this city was a royal (tsarist) town, [B]this tongue is preserved as more urban[/B]."[/B][/COLOR]

From the old Metropolitan convent of Tarnovo (18th century) it can be seen that the city and the surrounding population have been conducting their own divorces, inheritances, transfers, merchant deals and gifts before the metropolitan court [B]in the Greek language[/B].

In other towns such as Pazardzhik, Hristo Gandev states that the people were affected by the Greek civil morals, the Greek tongue and Greek cultural consciousness. The Bulgarians supported the local bishopric.

In general, the name "Bulgarian"/"Bulgarians" was heard quite rarely throughout the country, and in the public sphere it meant very little.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-13-2018 10:30 AM

Bulgarians love to point out all the 19th century writers that considered Macedonian to be a dialect of Bulgarian, don't think they'd like this:

[I]...the fact that it was not until 1822 that Vuk Karadzic convinced the the eminent Slavist Jozef Dubrovsky that Bulgarian was not a dialect of Serbian...[/I]

-Victor Friedman

Liberator of Makedonija 07-13-2018 10:51 AM

[I]As concerns the language of Mr. Jordan, anyone can see that it is so different from our written and spoken language, so that to a person reading it for the first time it will appear not only incomprehensible but completely different.......May the residents of Skopje forgive us, along with those speak a similar language; since they do not understand our language nor can they speak it.[/I]


Quoted from #55 of [I]Carigradski Vestnik[/I], dated 6 October 1851. Written by the editor as an attack on the literary works of Jordan Hadzi Konstantinov-Dzinot.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-16-2018 12:28 AM

[IMG]https://vgy.me/IeuOoY.jpg[/IMG]


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