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Voltron 01-26-2011 07:46 AM

Due to the simple fact that ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe. To me its a fact, to you it may not be and I respect that.

Daskalot 01-26-2011 08:06 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87166]Due to the simple fact that ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe. To me its a fact, to you it may not be and I respect that.[/QUOTE]

I see, could you please connect this simple fact of yours in time so to say. Please give us your facts about how ancient Macedonians are connected to modern Greeks? Please keep in mind what you yourself have stated above also applies to modern Greeks.

Voltron 01-26-2011 08:18 AM

In the above do you mean my response to SOM? Yes of course it applies to us as well. There has been many changes in Macedonia over time. The Slav incursion in my view has been the defining factor and ultimitly the root of this " political " name problem that we have today.

To answer your first part of your question its quite simple.
Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe therefore part of our modern ethnos.

Daskalot 01-26-2011 08:29 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87170]In the above do you mean my response to SOM? Yes of course it applies to us as well. There has been many changes in Macedonia over time. The Slav incursion in my view has been the defining factor and ultimitly the root of this " political " name problem that we have today.

To answer your first part of your question its quite simple.
Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe therefore part of our modern ethnos.[/QUOTE]

Yes your answer to SoM, which I in turn quoted above.
Now you are starting to divert from the question posed and answering with a less than satisfactory answer.
So lets start over, how exactly are ancient Macedonians connected to modern Greeks except being a Greek tribe?
And you also state that the Slav invasion is the root to your conflict about our chosen name?
In your sense how far did the Slav invaders reach?

Voltron 01-26-2011 08:46 AM

Im not diverting Daskalot, besides Im trying to respect the topic of this thread. I will answer your question to be courteous. The Slavs reached Peloponnese Greece and are a component of the modern Greek ethnos. I believe they have assimilated into us and Macedonians of today assimilated to them via language.

Soldier of Macedon 01-26-2011 09:04 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87157]I hope you dont mind I respond to your dialogue you have with Dimitar.[/QUOTE]
I don't mind, just cite a username when you quote the words of others.
[QUOTE]Since we can say that language may not be the answer to all, how can we say that they werent indeed Greeks that spoke Macedonian ?
Why is that not a possiblity ?[/QUOTE]
Language is a key indicator of the Macedonian identity; from the second half of the 18th century Greek was the only formal language in the churches and schools belonging to the Rum millet of Ottoman Europe. In the 19th century, the Serbian and Bulgarian languages gained an official status with the liberation of their churches and states, whereas the Macedonian language would need to wait until half way through the 20th century to obtain the same. If there are some Greeks that learned Macedonian, it was through necessity (probably due to trade) or interaction with Macedonians as neighbours, because the Macedonian language was not imposed in Macedonia like Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian were.
[QUOTE]How can we also disregard the Bulgarians in the region ? No doubt the Macedonians as well. Its all relative in the area we live in.[/QUOTE]
They've always been an insignificant number. Do you know of any documented settlements in Macedonia by the Turkic Bulgars or the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians from Moesia? I don't, perhaps you can help me out.
[QUOTE]It may have been a Macedonian state, but from what I know Tsar Samuil identified himself as a Bulgarian. Pls correct me if im wrong.[/QUOTE]
Can you refer me to a document where Samuel calls himself 'Bulgarian', aside from the so-called Bitola rock 'inscription', which is more than likely another fake like the one found in Voden? As far as I am aware, there is nothing on St Achilles island in Prespa which has a contemporary inscription making reference to him as a 'Bulgarian', or am I wrong?
[QUOTE]How is Macedonia historically Macedonian ? There has been so many movements in the Balkans its hard to tell what was historically what and when. Anybody can pick a certain timeline in history and use it to reinforce their position.[/QUOTE]
I don't have to pick a certain timeline in history because the regions we are talking about have had a more or less continuous Macedonian heritage and identity since antiquity, despite the population movements, invasions, etc.
[QUOTE]Speaking of Vlachs, I hear them mentioned so many times but does anybody know that is a blanket term ? Many people learned Latin during the Roman Empire. Vlachs have been assimilated to each respective country they live in. They have as much right as the next Greek or Macedonian to declare that region as theirs. Probably even more so.[/QUOTE]
Not all Vlachs. I am prepared to accept that a not insignificant amount of them are in actual fact descended from Roman (and possibly later Latin or Italic) colonists, but I am not prepared to put a figure on it.
[QUOTE]So according to this, there was never any Bulgarians ? How does one go about to differentiate ?[/QUOTE]
In Macedonia, very few.
[QUOTE]I agree with you that many of their subjects werent Bulgarian. But how do we know who thought of themselves what at the time ?[/QUOTE]
It's difficult to know how common people identified, some sources give an indication; one thing we can be sure of is the insignificance of both the Turkic Bulgar and Slavic Bulgarian populations in Macedonia.
[QUOTE]I dont think nationalities during that era held any weight at all. We are trying to use today's method of thinking to a completely different era with different identifying factors.[/QUOTE]
Your interpretation is incorrect. I am not trying to conjure an unbroken line of consistency in Macedonian history, my intention is instead to provide a comprehensive and collective picture of that history, and demonstrate how generations from each century developed one after the other - they are, afterall, the ancestors of today's Macedonians.
[QUOTE]Bulgarians today are just as indeginous as the modern day Greek and Macedonian. Bulgarians are more Thracian and Slav than Bulgar.[/QUOTE]
I do believe I said something similar already, although I don't completely agree with your assertion about the Greeks being indigenous to the Balkans because a significant part of the population stems from what is now Turkey. I am sure that most of the rest have a heritage in the region that predates the 19th century.
[QUOTE]Bulgar could also have been Iranic and not Turkic.[/QUOTE]
They were a Turkic people who picked up Iranic admixtures as they travelled west towards Europe.
[QUOTE]Ancient Macedonians were a Greek tribe therefore part of our modern ethnos.[/QUOTE]
That's a rather naive, ignorant and delusional comment.
[QUOTE]The Slavs reached Peloponnese Greece and are a component of the modern Greek ethnos.[/QUOTE]
Why don't they qualify as a 'Greek' tribe?
[QUOTE]I believe they have assimilated into us and Macedonians of today assimilated to them via language.[/QUOTE]
So that would technically mean you also think that today's Macedonians are Greeks? Now you're earlier comment is starting to make sense. No, the Macedonians aren't Greeks who adopted Slavic, they are Macedonians, and their original language is a sub-stratum in today's Macedonian language.

Voltron 01-26-2011 09:52 AM

SOM

[QUOTE]Language is a key indicator of the Macedonian identity; from the second half of the 18th century Greek was the only formal language in the churches and schools belonging to the Rum millet of Ottoman Europe. In the 19th century, the Serbian and Bulgarian languages gained an official status with the liberation of their churches and states, whereas the Macedonian language would need to wait until half way through the 20th century to obtain the same. If there are some Greeks that learned Macedonian, it was through necessity (probably due to trade) or interaction with Macedonians as neighbours, because the Macedonian language was not imposed in Macedonia like Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian were.[/QUOTE]

I dont believe that Greek language was forced. I understand the influence that Greek language had in the area and will give the benefit of the doubt.

[QUOTE]They've always been an insignificant number. Do you know of any documented settlements in Macedonia by the Turkic Bulgars or the Slavic-speaking Bulgarians from Moesia? I don't, perhaps you can help me out. [/QUOTE]

By the time the Bulgarians reached Europe their original features were most likely lost. Again we are not sure if they were Turkic or Iranic. There is still some debate about that. I believe the Bulgarians reached as far as Albania. I dont have any numbers either. Pls note I understand that the use of the term Bulgarian was a broad term. So please dont take my reply wrong.

[QUOTE]Can you refer me to a document where Samuel calls himself 'Bulgarian', aside from the so-called Bitola rock 'inscription', which is more than likely another fake like the one found in Voden? As far as I am aware, there is nothing on St Achilles island in Prespa which has a contemporary inscription making reference to him as a 'Bulgarian', or am I wrong?[/QUOTE]

Ive been there myself, St Achilles of Prespa. Absolutly stunning area. That being said, it is pretty much accepted that he was a Bulgarian. Im also aware of the rock inscription controversy so I wont use that as a reference. There is a contemporary plaque on display on St. Achilles island, I will see if I can upload it sometime. The really wierd part of that plaque is that someone scratched out the reference to Tsar Samuil the " Bulgarian " king.

[QUOTE]I don't have to pick a certain timeline in history because the regions we are talking about have had a more or less continuous Macedonian heritage and identity since antiquity, despite the population movements, invasions, etc.[/QUOTE]

Identity in the region was not the same as we know it today. That is pretty hard to substantiate. I dont agree with that assessment.

[QUOTE]Not all Vlachs. I am prepared to accept that a not insignificant amount of them are in actual fact descended from Roman (and possibly later Latin or Italic) colonists, but I am not prepared to put a figure on it.[/QUOTE]

Not only Latin or Italic colonists but Greek as well. There is no reason to not believe that Greeks assimilated to the Latin language as Macedonians today assimlated to Slavic. Sarakatsani Vlachs are a good example.

[QUOTE]It's difficult to know how common people identified, some sources give an indication; one thing we can be sure of is the insignificance of both the Turkic Bulgar and Slavic Bulgarian populations in Macedonia.[/QUOTE]

I agree it is difficult to determine how common people identified themselves.

[QUOTE]Your interpretation is incorrect. I am not trying to conjure an unbroken line of consistency in Macedonian history, my intention is instead to provide a comprehensive and collective picture of that history, and demonstrate how generations from each century developed one after the other - they are, afterall, the ancestors of today's Macedonians.[/QUOTE]

And Greeks.

[QUOTE]I do believe I said something similar already, although I don't completely agree with your assertion about the Greeks being indigenous to the Balkans because a significant part of the population stems from what is now Turkey. I am sure that most of the rest have a heritage in the region that predates the 19th century.[/QUOTE]

Vlachs and Arvanites to me are a valid Greek component and thus indeginous to the area.

[QUOTE]They were a Turkic people who picked up Iranic admixtures as they travelled west towards Europe.[/QUOTE]

I happen to think the opposite. They were Iranic that picked up Turkic loanwords or habits.

[QUOTE]Why don't they qualify as a 'Greek' tribe?[/QUOTE]

Because they are documented. Mellingoi and Ezerites.

[QUOTE]So that would technically mean you also think that today's Macedonians are Greeks? Now you're earlier comment is starting to make sense. No, the Macedonians aren't Greeks who adopted Slavic, they are Macedonians, and their original language is a sub-stratum in today's Macedonian language.[/QUOTE]

There is no reason to rule out the possiblity todays Macedonians having Greek lineage at one point. I also dont agree with the Macedonian language being related to Ancient Macedonian dialect of Greek. Hope you dont take it personal. That being said, I am in no way saying Macedonians today dont exist or dont deserve respect. I consider them my equals and part of the greater balkan neighborhood.

Onur 01-26-2011 11:11 AM

[QUOTE=Voltron;87190]
I dont believe that Greek language was forced. I understand the influence that Greek language had in the area and will give the benefit of the doubt.[/QUOTE]

You better delve in to the history section of the forum when you have some time. These actions of Greek patriarchy and their assimilation attempts was the primary reason of the foundation of Bulgarian church.

Greek language started to be imposed on all christians(slavic, latin and turkish speakers) from Edirne to Salonika, Albania and up to the Sofia by Istanbul patriarchy. Also that was when Turkish christians in Anatolia started to get Greek education for the first time. That was the case especially after 1850s and they did that by abusing their religious authority status given to them by the Turks.

Then in 1890s, Greek bandit groups(mostly Arvanites) started to terrorize Vlachs and Macedonians and they killed non-Greek speaking priests, burned Vlach and Macedonian bibles and even churches itself and forced people to pray in Greek. Vlachs too cuz Ottoman authorities recognized them in Aegean Macedonia as a distinct minority group in late 19th century. Greek church and government in Morea gone mad because of this and they already abandoned their minority rights when they invaded Aegean Macedonia. As we know, all the grandchildren of these people, thinks themselves as the descendants of ancient Greeks now!

This terror continued `till 1912 and all these events are very well documented with personal testimonies in Ottoman era archives, reports from various western European travelers and US Evangelist missionaries. You can find these in history section.

Voltron 01-26-2011 02:51 PM

Let me guess Onur, you guys were Angels.

Voltron 01-26-2011 02:59 PM

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