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tchaiku 05-03-2017 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168396]The following text is from Edith Durham's book "High Albania and its Customs in 1908", page 454:

[I]“These tribes are divided into several marked groups. The first group Ι visited was [B]Maltsia e madhe, the Great Mountainous Land[/B]. This consists of five large tribes and three small ones. Four of the five large ones each tells that [B]its ancestor came from the north with his family, THIRTEEN OR FOURTEEN GENERATIONS AGO[/B], flying from the advancing Turks. In some cases they found uninhabited land and settled on it. In others, they fought with the men already on the land, and finally settled among them. These former inhabitants they call Anas, which is interpreted in the latest Albanian Dictionary as "aborigines"...

They intermarried with the Anas. A few houses in the Hoti tribe still trace direct descent from the Anas, in the male line. All four of these tribes (Skreli, Hoti, Gruda, Kilmeni) tell that [B][U]their ancestors CAME FROM BOSNIA OR THE HERZEGOVINA, precise district unknown[/U][/B].”[/I]

In the same book, we also find:

[I]“[B]The second tribal group I visited was the Pulati group, called also Maltsia e vogel[/B][B], the small mountainous land.[/B] [B]Here also a tale of immigration is told by the more important tribes, but of immigration, not from the north, but [U]from the east, the district known in earlier days as Rashia[/U].[/B] These people tell that they arrived before the Maltsia e madhe people did. As the Turks penetrated Rashia considerably before they subdued Bosnia, this tale also is probably true. They too tell that they found previous inhabitants who were a small dark people. In the tribe of Shala there are still eight houses that trace descent from these early inhabitants. The other families migrated in a body "a long time ago" to the neighbourhood of Dechani (probably at the end of the seventeenth century, when the Serbs left it in numbers and fled to Hungary)…”[/I]

I note these myths and legendary tales merely to dismiss them. I don't need to go into details who Edith Durham was. The simple point here is that it appears that she recorded and wrote down what the residents themselves told her, and [U]this was roughly 100 years ago[/U]. Well and good.

The question whether the above mentioned (ancient) Gheg tribes are indeed from Bosnia, Herzegovina or Rashia is irrelevant, [I]"possible"[/I] but irrelevant. The interesting question here is how many people out there (perhaps even historians) are aware or know of Gheg [I]claims[/I] that they are from Bosnia or Herzegovina?


Changing gears and returning to the [I]"Latins"[/I] of Albania (on which I have much more to share), the following text comes from the 5th chapter of "Alexiada" (Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, Anna Comnena, Volumen I, Bonnae, MDCCCXXXIX (1839), p. 223):

[I]“[U]Οι δ' εντός [B]Δυρραχίου[/B][/U], καθάπερ ο λόγος εδήλωσεν, [U]επεί οι πλείους από [B]Μέλφης και Βενετίας ήσαν άποικοι[/U][/B], τα ξυμπεσόντα τω αυτοκράτορι μεμαθηκότες και την τοσαύτην ανδροκτασίαν καί την των τηλικούτων ανδρών σφαγήν και τους στόλους υποκεχωρηκότας και ότι ο Ρομπέρτος εις το επιόν έαρ την πολιορκίαν ταμιεύεται, διεσκοπείτο έκαστος ότι πράττειν χρή και σώζεσθαι και μη αύθις ες τοσούτους εμπεπτωκέναι κινδύνους”.[/I]

As can be seen from the above text, the majority of residents of Dyrrachium/Durrës in the late 11th century were [B]settlers from the Italian cities of Venice and Amalfi[/B]. The presence of [I]Latin[/I]-speakers in the city should not be particularly impressive since both Venice and Amalfi were important commercial cities and naval forces in medieval times.

In the course of time, the two "Italian" powers will expand in the region, always Dyrrachium as the base of operations, and also attract the local [I]"Latins"[/I] of the neighboring towns and districts.

Thanks for reading.[/QUOTE]

Very interesting Carlin.

Carlin 05-05-2017 10:39 PM

Let's return to northern Albania and the arrival of the Ghegs in those parts. When Gheg Laz arrived in the area, [U]coming from Bosnia[/U], leading there the "tribe" of Hoti, he found a different "race" of people there. Let's see how these people are described in the Gheg verbal traditions. The following text comes from the same book as mentioned previously, Mary Edith Durham's "High Albania", 1909, pages 69-70.

[COLOR="Blue"][I]“...When [B]Gheg Laz[/B] and his sons came here, there were already people here”.

Some one suggested they were [B]Shkyar (Slavs)[/B], but the old man was positive they were not. “They were a very old people. No one knew whence they came. Some said they were like Tartars. My grandfather said they were very strong and active, and could leap over six horses at once, and that they ate acorns and horse-flesh. Twelve houses in Hoti are descended from them, and with these we can marry. They are other blood. They are called [B]Anas[/B]." (Anas, in the Albanian dictionary of the Bashkimi society, means “indigenous”). Nor could the old man see that, after thirteen generations of intermarriage, the stocks of [B]Gheg Laz[/B] and the Anas must be very considerably related. There was none of the same blood, he declared. Female blood does not count”.[/I][/COLOR]

As we can see, in the Gheg [I]traditions[/I], as in the above text, Anas are described as semi-wild people who ate acorns and horse-flesh and could do supernatural things, such as jumping over six horses in a row.

Let's try to look at the "ethnic" composition of the population that inhabited northern Albania just before the arrival of Hoti Ghegs in those parts. We will use here a text written by Konstantin Jirecek. It comes from "Skutari und sein Gebiet im Mittelalter" as published in the "Illyrisch-Albanische Forschungen", Tom. 1, by Dr. Ludwig von Thalloczy, version 1916, pages 112-113. It refers to the "ethnic" state of the town of Drivasto (Drisht) of northern Albania in the 14th-15th century.

[I][COLOR="Blue"]“Klar wird Stadt und Burg von einander geschieden (castrum et civitas). Die Kathedrale war eine Kirche des heiligen Georg. Erwähnt wird noch eine Marienkirche. Sitz des Domkapitels (capitulum ecclesiae S. Mariae de Drivasto 1352) und eine Kirche des heiligen Franziskus. Beim Bischof gab es eine Menge von Klerikern, Domherren, einen Erzpriester und viele Priester, aber wegen der geringen Einkünfte dienten viele in Ragusa, in der Stadt und Umgebung; ein Geistlicher Andreas aus Drivasto war B. 1317 Notar der Insel Lagosta. Nicht näher bekannt sind die Einrichtungen der Gemeinde (communitas), deren lateinische Akten ein Notar, wieder ein Geistlicher, abfaßte. In der Umgebung gab es genug Wein und Ol, aber die Not war im Wachsen infolge der ununterbrochenen Kriege. Die Bürger betrachteten sich noch im XV Jahrhundert, wie Barletius schreibt,[B] mit Stolz, als Nachkommen der Römer ([U]Romanorum colonos se appellantes[/U])[/B]. In der Tat findet man unter den Familiennamen des XIV. und XV. Jahrhunderts viele rein romanische: Palombo oder Colomba, de Leporibus, Barbabiancha, Summa, Bello; daneben gibt es allerdings auch albanische, wie Bariloth, Precalo, Scapuder (1368 f., die erste Spur des Volksnamens der Skipetaren), serbische, wie Berivoj oder griechische, wie Calageorgii und Spano (σπανός der Bartlose). Die vornehmste Adelsfamilie waren die Span oder Spano, serbisch Spanouici”.[/COLOR][/I]

The sentence and part that interests us translates as follows: [I][COLOR="Blue"][B]In the XV century, as Barletius writes, the citizens regarded themselves proudly, as descendants of the Romans (Romanorum colonos se appellantes).[/B] [/COLOR][/I]

As we can observe, even in the 15th century, the "national" myth of the inhabitants of the town in question was the legend of the "Roman colonists," of foreigners or immigrants in those parts. According to Gheg [I]traditions[/I], however, these "Roman colonists" were ultimately [U]older[/U] than the Ghegs who arrived at those places after the "Roman settlers".

To summarize, we have understood that in the Middle Ages there were two separate peoples in this area (perhaps there were also some remnants of Shkyar-Slavs). On the one hand there was still a significant [I]Latin[/I]-speaking population, the "Roman settlers" who lived along the coast and a second population, the "Albanians"/"Ghegs" living in the hinterland.

To be continued...

Carlin 05-06-2017 05:40 PM

The following text comes from the monograph of Konstantin Jirecek "Staat und Gesellschaft im mittelalterlichen Serbien: Studien zur Kulturgeschichte des 13.-15. Jahrhunderts", published in Volume 56 of the Denkschriften der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien, Philosophisch- Historische Klasse" on page 35.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Allerdings waren die Albaner des Kaisers Kantakuzenos in Pindus, die Stamme der Malakasier, Mesariten und [B]Bujer[/B] [U]keine Albanesen[/U], sondern Rumanen, heute noch bekannt als Malakasi und Boji”.[/COLOR]

And translated...

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"However, the Albanians of the emperor Kantakuzenos in Pindus, the tribe of Malakasians, Mesarites and [B]Buji[/B] [U]were not Albanian[/U], but Vlachs, still known as Malakasi and Boji."[/COLOR]

The reason Konstantin Jirecek refers to the Boji as "Vlachs" is the Latinophony of its first (original) generation.

Leaving aside the "Latins" for now - if you had the patience to read the previous posts for the Ghegs, you would have realized that, according to their own traditions (which I simply note and am agnostic about it), the Ghegs, at least a large part of them, were not indigenous to the regions that live today, but they came in those parts from Bosnia.


Apart from the Ghegs' migration, we will further see their claim of the common origin with some "tribes" of Montenegro. Let's see what and who these "relatives" are.

As previously noted, the following text is from Mary Edith Durham's book "High Albania and its Customs in 1908", p. 454.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Ηoti. - A large tribe situated south of Gruda and extending to the shore of Scutari Lake. On the east it is divided from Kastrati by the Licheni Hotit, an arm of the lake. It consists of one bariak of about 500 houses. All are Catholic but three, those of the Bariaktar's family. This turned Moslem seven generations ago. [B]All Hoti[/B], except twelve houses, [B]traces descent from Bosnia[/B]. These twelve are called Anas, and are of [B]unknown origin[/B]. They were there when Hoti came.

Shortly after the building of the church of Gruda, thirteen generations ago, [B]Geg Laz, the ancestor of Hoti[/B], arrived with his family. [B]Geg was one of four brothers. The others were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni[/B]. From these descend the [B]Piperi and the Vasojevichi of Montenegro[/B], who are Serbophone and belong to the Orthodox Church. Krasni is ancestor of the Krasnichi, now Moslem and Albanophone...”[/COLOR]


The "blood ties" of the Ghegs with the "tribes" of Montenegro: The "blood affinity", or the common origin of the Albanian "tribes" Hoti and Krasnichi with the Slavophone Piperi and Vasoyevichi, was known in the Slavonic "tribes". Let's see this.

The following passages are derived from the text "Notice abrégée de les tribus de la Haute Albanie et d'unamment sur les Montagnes indépendantes" (Brief description of the "tribes" of High Albania and in particular of the Independent Mountains), as published in the Bulletin de la Société Géographique de Paris", Deuxéme Série, Volume 14, Paris, 1841, pages 166-173.

The text is written by one Montenegrin of the "tribe" of Vasoyevich and refers, among other things, to the common origin of the Albanian Ghegs from the "tribes" Hoti and Krasnichi with the Slavophone Montenegrins from the "tribes" of Vasoyevich and Piperi.

The author of the above text considers himself a Slav and not Albanian Skipetar. [B]He also considers the "tribes" of Hoti and Krasnichi of Slavic origin[/B]. According to this writer, the common ancestors of these "tribes" are the Ostrogoth-Slavs, a population different from the other Slavs whom he calls Serbian Slavs.


A) Explanations for Ostrogoth-Slavs - Page 168:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Plusieurs historiens et même des Serbiens, ont confondu les peuples Slaves-Ostrogots avec les Slaves-Serbiens, tes Slaves-Serbiens sont arrivés en 661 de la Mismie et de la Sorabie et ont occupé sous l'empereur Héraclius, la Mésie supérieure, c'est-à dire la Serbie d'aujourd'hui, pays entre les fleuves du Danube, Séva, Drina, Timor et Morava.

Les Serbiens, sous le rapport des moeurs, des usages, du costume et de la langue, different en tout des Slaves-Ostrogots”.


"Several historians and even Serbians have confounded the Slav-Ostrogoth peoples with the Slav-Serbians, the Slavs-Serbians arrived in 661 from Mismia and Sorabia and occupied under the Emperor Heraclius, Upper Moesia, that is to say today's Serbia, country between the rivers of the Danube, Seva, Drina, Timor and Morava.

The Serbians, in respect of manners, customs, costume, and language, differ in all from the Slav-Ostrogoths."[/COLOR]


B) The last Ostrogoth King and his four sons - Page 170:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Les tribus des montagnes indépendantes sont originaires de ce pays, c'est l'ancienne Holmia et Podgorie. Leur origine remonte à 495; mais la division en tribus a commencé en 1160, lorsque le dernier roi slave des Ostrogots en Dalmatie, Radoslav 45e, persécuté par un de ses généraux nommé Dessa qu'il avait comblé de ses faveurs en le faisant prince de Rascia, fut obligé avec ses quatre fils Wasso, Crasso, Hoto et Pipo et tous ses germains de se retrancher dans ses montagnes qui sont devenues depuis le séjour de quatre grandes tribus: Wassoevitchy, Crasnichy (Ducagins), Hotty et Pipery, qui jusqu'aujourd'hui ont conservé leur liberté et leur indépendance. Dans un cas de danger général, c'est-à-dire dans une guerre contre les Turcs, elles sont en fédération avec les Monténégrins”.[/COLOR]

Translated...

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"The tribes of the independent mountains are native to this country, it is the ancient Holmia and Podgorie. Their origin dates back to 495; But the division into tribes began in 1160, when the last Slavonic king of the Ostrogoths in Dalmatia, Radoslav 45th, persecuted by one of his generals named Dessa whom he had filled with his favors by making him Prince of Rascia, was obliged with his Four sons Wasso, Crasso, Hoto, and Pipo, and all his siblings to submerge themselves in the mountains which have since become the residence of four great tribes: Wassoevitchy, Crasnichy (Ducagins), Hotty and Pipery. Freedom and independence. In a case of general danger, that is to say, in a war against the Turks, they are in federation with the Montenegrins."[/COLOR]

Carlin 05-10-2017 05:23 AM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/MadgTitle_zpsavejcfi8.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/MadgTitle_zpsavejcfi8.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Madg147_zpsdkks47wt.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Madg147_zpsdkks47wt.png[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 05-25-2017 10:07 PM

The following statement comes from a Serbian archaeologist, Djordje Jankovic.

The full article can be found here (which is in Serbian):
[url]http://www.rastko.rs/kosovo/delo/11620[/url]

The citation of interest is:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]Писани извори и језик указују на разнородно порекло албанских племена, међу којима исходиште најзначајнијих Арбана (Шиптара) и Мирдита – [B]Мардаита[/B] треба тражити у предњој Азији, [U]од Кавказа до Сирије[/U]. За сада постоји само један археолошки налаз на подручју Албаније, који одудара од општих словенских особина југоисточне Европе и упућује на азијско порекло.[/COLOR][/I]

The translation is:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]Written sources and language indicate a diverse origin of Albanian tribes, the most important ones being Arbana (Skipetars) and Mirdita - [B]Mardaites[/B] whose origin should be sought after in Asia Minor, [U]from the Caucasus to Syria[/U]. For now there is only one archaeological find in Albania, which stands out from general Slavic characteristics of southeast Europe and points to the Asian origin.[/COLOR][/I]

Carlin 06-11-2017 04:10 PM

Prof. John Bassett Trumper - About Albanian Language
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZUDZUc_-8[/url]

In this interview, after presenting his arguments, Trumper concludes:

[COLOR="Blue"]"... which means that the original Urheimat, as the Germans call it, [that is] the original region in which the [Albanian] language was developed, [U]could not have been in southern Europe or the Mediterranean[/U], but it should have been higher ([I]to the north[/I]) even from Kosovo. This means a long strip covering Central Europe and [U]allowing relationships with the Caucasus[/U], [i.e. with] [U]Armenia[/U] on the one hand, relationships with the Celtic-German groups which are very central and [affiliated] with the Baltic groups up above. This means that the Albanians have basically been forced to move further down from their original Urheimat in a central zone of Europe, down, down, down, by progressive waves of Slavs, Slav movements, to eventually occupy the Mediterranean basin ... "[/COLOR]

I am not a linguist, but could (proto-)Albanian have had historical contacts and relationships with the Celtic-Germanic groups in Asia Minor too, close to the Caucasus?

1) According to Jerome, Celtic was heard in Galatia in the fourth century, and survived until the end of the fifth and probably beyond.

Galatian language
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatian_language[/url]

2) Germanic-Gothic: We are told concerning an Arian bishop Selinas that his father was a Goth, his mother a Phrygian, and that for this reason he used both languages.

Celtic was present in Asia Minor for a very long time indeed, roughly 700-800 years without interruption or gaps, if not longer (?). These Celts were warriors (they arrived in Asia Minor in the 3rd century BC) and dominated a significant area and territory of Asia Minor, and it is very likely, if not certain, that they had contacts with the other / nearby peoples of Asia Minor. Gothic was also present in Asia Minor, and was spoken for a period of time.

Liberator of Makedonija 10-21-2017 04:09 AM

Would someone be so kind as to explain the various forms/vernaculars of the Albanian language? I have heard of Gheg, Tosk and Arvanitika and have just discovered the existence of Arbëresh. Curious how these differ from another and if they could be considered seperate languages belonging to one (Albanian) language family?

Liberator of Makedonija 10-21-2017 10:34 AM

[QUOTE=makedonin;65263]It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa është ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'[/QUOTE]

The Spanish word for hour is 'hora' which is pronounced the same as the Albanian 'ora'. Although on it's own it means hour it pretty much means time when used in the phrase 'Qué hora es' which literally translates to: [I]What hour is (it)[/I].

tchaiku 10-22-2017 01:43 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;170323]Would someone be so kind as to explain the various forms/vernaculars of the Albanian language? I have heard of Gheg, Tosk and Arvanitika and have just discovered the existence of Arbëresh. Curious how these differ from another and if they could be considered seperate languages belonging to one (Albanian) language family?[/QUOTE]

Gheg is the original dialect, which was saved by isolated Catholic Albanians of North. Tosk nowadays is the standard Albanian dialect and was influenced by Slavic languages. Tosk sounds more like a Latin/Sicilian dialect in my opinion. Tosk and Gheg are mutually intelligible, the root of the words is basically the same. Only some few words are completely different.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_dialects#Extinct_dialects[/url]

Arvanitika is a Sub-Tosk dialect a more isolated one spoken by the Albanians of Greece. Arbereshe are Christian Albanians fleeing from Peloponnese and Epirus to Italy during the Ottoman rule.
Arbereshe is to Italy what Arvanitika is to Greece.

Arvanitika in my opinion is easier to understand than Arbereshe.

Liberator of Makedonija 10-22-2017 06:46 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;170330]Gheg is the original dialect, which was saved by isolated Catholic Albanians of North. Tosk nowadays is the standard Albanian dialect and was influenced by Slavic languages. Tosk sounds more like a Latin/Sicilian dialect in my opinion. Tosk and Gheg are mutually intelligible, the root of the words is basically the same. Only some few words are completely different.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_dialects#Extinct_dialects[/url]

Arvanitika is a Sub-Tosk dialect a more isolated one spoken by the Albanians of Greece. Arbereshe are Christian Albanians fleeing from Peloponnese and Epirus to Italy during the Ottoman rule.
Arbereshe is to Italy what Arvanitika is to Greece.

Arvanitika in my opinion is easier to understand than Arbereshe.[/QUOTE]


I read that these forms are not always mutually intelligible? Arbereshe especially is apparently very different


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