Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   Exposing Lies and Propaganda (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6)
-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

momce 12-27-2012 10:46 PM

Interesting. I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?

Soldier of Macedon 01-22-2013 09:44 PM

[QUOTE=momce;138056]I guess it turns on which language is closest to proto-indoeuropean and/or proto-Balkan...?[/QUOTE]
Both are closer to Balto-Slavic than they are to Albanian.

George S. 01-23-2013 12:22 AM

One thing's clear the albanian claims that they are related to the illyrians doesn't carry much weight as on one of the threads it was pointed out the serbs or croats might be the remnants of the illyrians.As for their language it resembles something like italian than illyrian.The people inhabiting albania today probably migrated in the 6 or 7th century during the so called slavic invasions.So it's not odd to say there is slavic in them albanians.

Epirot 01-28-2013 09:55 AM

One thing that has struck me so far is the evolution of opinion about the ancestry of the Albanians. If they are about to create a kind of federation between Greece and Albania, then Albanians are nothing else but seeds of Pelasgians. According to this view, both Greeks and Albanians trace their origin back to a common predecessor. When it became profusely clear that Albanians were hesitant to accept any kind of federation, Greek historians suddenly switched their opinions. Now Albanians had nothing Hellenic, furthermore they might have come from elsewhere. Knowing that no evidence was found to back up such claims, they probably opt for the Dacian ancestry of the Albanians. Digging in dumpsters of Romanian and Serbian school, Dacian outlandish hypothesis fits perfectly to their imagination that Albanians are nothing else but migrants in the Hellenic soil. It would be to time consuming to bother with such groundless hypothesis. What matters the most is that no scholar has yet endorsed that hypothesis, which lacks of any historical support.

[QUOTE]A further factor is that [COLOR="Red"][B]there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and t[U]here is not any vestige of their presence in that land[/U])[/B][/COLOR], while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.

[url]http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Here I shall display the opinion of 'Greeks' whether Albanians were Dacians :)

One of the most striking evidences is to be found at the Mazaris's book "The Journey to Hades" (1414/15), where he stated: "Ιλλύριοι" - ως 'Αλβανοί':

[QUOTE]«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι,[COLOR="Red"][B] Ιλλυριοί,[/B][/COLOR] Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/11m3x8w.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/1h6kqv.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/a5dte1.png[/IMG]

Ephraemius (Byzantine chronicler - 14th cent.)

[QUOTE]χρατιΐ Θισσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιάάμνω
[COLOR="Blue"][B]Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς[/B][/COLOR](1)
ευρύ δέ οι τι &ησι μάλλον το χλέος
η κατά Πέτρου Λατίνου λαμπρά νίχη
γαμβρός γαρ ούτος είς άδελψην τνγχάνων
Έρρή Βαλδουίνου τι των βασιλέων
προς πάπα χρισ&εϊς άς χρατάρχψι Λατίνων
Έρρή θανόντος είς Βνζαντος εστάλη
εις Έπιδαμνίων δ χατάρας πόλιν
δι Αλβανών έσπευδε την Κωνσταντίνου(2)
μετά στρατιάς χαταλαβεϊν ευόπλου
άλλα προφθ άσας Θεόδωρος γεννάδας
τοϋτον τροπονται χαί νιχα κατά κράτος[/QUOTE]

Has any Greek ever tried to comprehend why no account exist referring to the Albanians as Dacians? I am also thrilled to know why the Medieval Albanians had no memory of their supposed Dacian origin? How come they had no memory of Duras, Decebalus and Burebista? Instead they cherished a lot of traditions linking themselves with Pyrrhus...:

[QUOTE]Οι Αλβανοί σε μεγάλο βαθμό κατάγονται από τους αρχαίους Ηπειρώτες. Αξιοσημείωτο είναι ότι στις παραδόσεις των Αλβανών δεν υπάρχουν αναφορές για καταγωγή τους από τους Ιλλυριούς αλλά από τους Ηπειρώτες. Χαρακτηριστικό παράδειγμα είναι η απάντηση του Αλβανού ήρωα Σκεντέρμπεη σε έναν πρίγκιπα του Τάραντα που ειρωνευόταν τους Αλβανούς και δεν τους είχε ικανούς να αντισταθούν στους Τούρκους: ‘’Δεν τους ξέρεις καλά τους Αρβανίτες μου…[COLOR="Red"][B]Οι πρόγονοί μας ήταν Ηπειρώτες, από τους οποίους βγήκε εκείνος ο Πύρρος[/B][/COLOR], στου οποίου την ορμή μόλις που μπόρεσαν να αντισταθούν οι Ρωμαίοι.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE][B]Kōnstantinos Paparrēgopoulos[/B]: Άλλ' οί Αλβανοί δεν δύνανται ακριβώς ειπείν νά λογισΟώσιν ώς φυλη άλλοτρία της ελληνικής. Οί Αλβανοί εΐναι απόγονοι τών αρχαίων Ιλλυριών, οΐ- τινες πολλην έχοντες ανέκαθεν την οικειότητα προς τούς κατοίκους τών μεσημβρινωτέρων χωρών (1877:386)[/QUOTE]

Paparrēgopoulos points that Albanians are not alien to the Greeks. According to him, Albanians are the descendants of ancient Illyrians.

[QUOTE][B]Kōstas Eleutheroudakē[/B]: Αλβανοί, απόγονοι των αρχαίων Ιλλυριών (197?: 75)[/QUOTE]

If a century ago you unhesitatingly accepted our being as Epirotes, why is so fucking difficult to accept it right now?

[QUOTE][B]Pandōra: syngramma periodikon, Volume 10[/B]: Δέν είναι λοιπόν παράδοξον, δτι ο'ι Αλβανοί έπωνομάσθησαν -κιπετάροι από τοϋ Σκίπιε ώς δπαδοί η1 απόγονοι τοΰ Πύρρου τοΰ έπονομασθέντος Αετοΰ = Σκίπιε (1860: 518)[/QUOTE]

To our southern neighbours, history goes hand-in-hand with the geopolitics. While Athens still claims parts of southern Albania, Greek historians are pretty cautious to restrict Hellenism within Tosks but not to the Ghegs:

[QUOTE][B]Dēmētrios Euangelidēs[/B]: "Ισως μάλιστα οί Τόσκηδες να είναι οί αρχαίοι Ηπειρώτες κάτοικοι πού ανακατεύτηκαν με τούς Ιλλυριούς στα βόρεια αύτα σύνορα της Ηπείρου. (1962:26) [/QUOTE]

Any idea why?

Nexus 01-28-2013 07:27 PM

това страница е за албанската вистина или за македонската вистина ,што сака да ни каже тој момче, дека шиптарите пелазги и илириски ли са?

Soldier of Macedon 01-29-2013 04:25 AM

[QUOTE="Nexus"]......што сака да ни каже тој момче, дека шиптарите пелазги и илириски ли са?[/QUOTE]
Do you disagree? If so, you should explain why. Better yet, first do some research on the topic to better understand the different points of view. You can start here:

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012[/url]
[QUOTE="Epirus"]* Kokalis, Andrucos, Kacionis, Grindalis, Plaputas, Kacandonis, Mjaulis, Kolokotronis, Bubulina, Karajskaqis, Kunduriotis and Botsaris were all Albanians, who distinguished themselves on their anti-Ottoman wars.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=7213[/url]

Does the article actually refer to Kolokotronis as an Albanian?
[QUOTE]A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia.......[/QUOTE]
There is no historical record which mentions the arrival of Roma in the Balkans, but linguistics indicates that they came from India. The theory that Proto-Albanians, or at least a tribe of people that contributed to Albanian ethnogenesis, once lived among the ancestors of modern Romanians, is also based on linguistics.
[QUOTE].......while [B]there are many documents proving that the Vlach people[/B] lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia![/QUOTE]
There are no 'documents' prior to the Roman occupation of Dacia which make reference to "Vlach people" by the southern Adriatic coast.
[QUOTE]Ephraemius (Byzantine chronicler - 14th cent.)

Quote:
χρατιΐ Θισσαλίας τε συν Αχαΐα
Μακεδονίας χαι μέρους τίνος θράχης
αίρει Λαλματίαν τι συν Έπιάάμνω
Ιλλυρίδα γην, Αλβανούς οριτρόφονς(1)
ευρύ δέ οι τι &ησι μάλλον το χλέος
η κατά Πέτρου Λατίνου λαμπρά νίχη[/QUOTE]
Can you please provide a link and translation to this text?

Epirot 01-29-2013 03:05 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]Does the article actually refer to Kolokotronis as an Albanian? [/QUOTE]

Yes it does! While Androutsopoulos was speaking in the context of αρβανίτικη θυσία (Albanian sacrifices), Kolokotronis and the rest are being mention.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]Can you please provide a link and translation to this text?[/QUOTE]

The above verses were dedicated to the Emperor of Nicea, Theodor II Laskaris who attempted to extend his authority over the territories of Western Balkans. A rough translation of the cited passage would be:

[QUOTE]He became at the same time the lord of Thessaly, Achaia,
Macedonia and parts of Thrace. He received Dalmatia along with the Epidamus,
an Illyrian land, mountainous Albanians.
But he gain more pride after his victory against Petro the latin.

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vhUTAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA310&dq=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9+%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD+%CF%84%CE%B9+%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD+%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89+%CE%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1+%CE%B3%CE%B7%CE%BD,+%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82+%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%86%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%82&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ViwIUf-pMMiRswbLgIGQBQ&ved=0CCwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9%20%CE%9B%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%BD%20%CF%84%CE%B9%20%CF%83%CF%85%CE%BD%20%CE%88%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%BD%CF%89%20%CE%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B1%20%CE%B3%CE%B7%CE%BD%2C%20%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%B2%CE%B1%CE%BD%CE%BF%CF%8D%CF%82%20%CE%BF%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%81%CF%8C%CF%86%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%82&f=false[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;138996]
The theory that Proto-Albanians, or at least a tribe of people that contributed to Albanian ethnogenesis, once lived among the ancestors of modern Romanians, is also based on linguistics. [/QUOTE]

Albanians has heaps of Dacian elements indeed. As far as ancient sources are concerned, no account has evidenced any Dacian shift towards modern Albania. Knowing that Dacians were utterly Romanized, there is no basis to ascribe them as ancestors of Albanians. A certain section of Dacians did not succumb to the Romanization, but they were to be found in the eastern parts of Dacia. Known as Free Dacians, they used to inhabit the regions of modern Moldavia. Its less convincing that they fled in south to became subjects of Roman empire. Had the proto-Albanians lived in Dacia, they would left their vestiges behind them. I've sought in vain to trace any cultural vestige which would indicate the presence of Albanians there but could not find any. To sum it up, the linguistic commonalities found in both Albanian and Romanian might be attributed to the fact they lived in close neighborhood. An additional factor that should not be neglected is also the ethnogenesis of Romanians. Nearly all historians believe that proto-Romanians used to live in south of Danube. Although no one has been able to exactly pinpoint the cradle of Romanians, the German scholar Schramm points that they lived in a territory, most probably in the higher zones of the Pirin, Rila, and Rhodope Mountains, close to the regions inhabited by Albanians (Schramm 1997, pp. 311., 323.)

[QUOTE]Therefore, based on the facts that we can take for certain at this time, [COLOR="Blue"][B]it can be stated that not a single geographical name (the name of a river, a mountain, or a place) exist in Romania which could prove the plausibility of the survival of a language island, even solely in a smaller territory[/B][/COLOR], from the Antiquity to the Middle Ages. Whereas whole Romania is entwined with conclusive geographical names which excludes any form of continuity there.
Schramm, Gottfried (1997), p. 105.
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]All a scholar of the Middle Ages can declare relatively safely after having examined the circumstances [COLOR="blue"][B]at the end of the 9th century is that there is no trace of (...) Romanians in Transylvania in this period.[/B][/COLOR]
—Kristó, Gyula (2003)[/QUOTE]

Being so, proto-Romanians might have lived somewhere in nearby of Albanians, which is why their vocabulary is imbued with Albanian words. It seems quite likely that Albanians were to be found in the province of Dardania, where they kept intact their identity without being fully Romanized. In favor of that speaks also the very fact that Dardanians were Illyrian on the ground that most of their names pertain to the Illyrian onomasticon (Katicic as cited by Wilkes). History afford no hint that Dardanians might have been Dacians or Mysians. Moreover, most of sources are able to sharply distinguish them. Anxious to dislocate Albanians in a place far away from Greece, Greek net-warriors pick up selectively Georgiev's writings. The Bulgarian linguist has indeed coined for the first time the term 'Daco-Mysian'. He put forth the hypothesis that Albanians might have stem from Dacians. But Georgiev was aware that this scenario is not backed up by any historical evidence. One does not whether to cry or laugh with Andreas Kyropoulos and his like, who delight themselves on such untenable hypothesis.

Soldier of Macedon 01-29-2013 10:44 PM

[QUOTE="Epirus"]Yes it does! While Androutsopoulos was speaking in the context of αρβανίτικη θυσία (Albanian sacrifices), Kolokotronis and the rest are being mention.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I will add the quote to the 'Kolokotronis the Albanian' thread.
[QUOTE]The above verses were dedicated to the Emperor of Nicea, Theodor II Laskaris who attempted to extend his authority over the territories of Western Balkans. A rough translation of the cited passage would be:
[QUOTE]He became at the same time the lord of Thessaly, Achaia, Macedonia and parts of Thrace. He received Dalmatia along with the Epidamus, an Illyrian land, mountainous Albanians. But he gain more pride after his victory against Petro the latin.

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=vhU...%CF%82&f=false[/url][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]
If you come across a more accurate translation, please post it here.
[QUOTE]Albanians has heaps of Dacian elements indeed.[/QUOTE]
Can you name any specifically 'Dacian' elements in the Albanians? Even the so-called 'Dacian substratum' in Romanian is largely dubious, as words that were once assumed to be 'Dacian' were in fact proven to belong to other languages.
[QUOTE]Knowing that Dacians were utterly Romanized, there is no basis to ascribe them as ancestors of Albanians.[/QUOTE]
The connection I was referring to has much more to do with the prominent eastern Romance elements in Albanian.
[QUOTE]Had the proto-Albanians lived in Dacia, they would left their vestiges behind them. I've sought in vain to trace any cultural vestige which would indicate the presence of Albanians there but could not find any.[/QUOTE]
If language is anything to go by, then the Albanian ethnicity is an amalgamation of several elements. That being the case, it is natural that there is no "presence of Albanians" in Dacia, as the formation of Albanians (as they're currently known) hadn't yet reached its final stages.
[QUOTE]Nearly all historians believe that proto-Romanians used to live in south of Danube.[/QUOTE]
That's not true. The 'south of Danube' theory tries to explain the similarities shared between Romanian and Albanian in favour of the latter, but there are some obvious problems, like the fact that there is still a Macedonian ethno-geographical buffer between them, and the lack of Albanian place names east of Macedonia. Where exactly then, according to this theory, did the Proto Romanians acquire 'Albanian' loanwords? How does this theory explain why there is a large concentration of eastern Romance speakers in what was once Dacia, and only sprinkles of eastern Romance speakers elsewhere in the Balkans? Does it make more sense that the sprinkles congregated into one region (Dacia) over time, or that small groups began to break away from the concentrated mass? Think about it.
[QUOTE]It seems quite likely that Albanians were to be found in the province of Dardania, where they kept intact their identity without being fully Romanized.[/QUOTE]
What identity did they keep?

Epirot 01-30-2013 01:59 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;139031]
Can you name any specifically 'Dacian' elements in the Albanians? [/QUOTE]

Too begin with, our knowledge on Dacian is very slim as long as no inscriptions were found on that language. So assuming that Dacian might have been the ancestor of Albanian is very hazardous. In terms of specific concordances, Albanian and Dacian are matched together on the development of *au> a (Orel 2000: 12) and the development of *e as well (Orel 2000: 1). It would seem natural to assume that Illyrian and Dacian were more similar that we think. The former has considerably affected Dacia on the ground that during Roman period, thousands of Illyrians were settled there especially in Transylvania, where many mines were in function. Thus Duridanov has reconstructed some Dacian words which have their parallels in Illyrian.

*aba, apa (water, river) > Apos is a Dacian or an Illyrian river name.
*balas (white) > Illyr. Ballios (Ballius, Balleus) possibly stemming from a PIE root *bhel-.

[QUOTE]About 160 of the Romanian substratum words have cognates in Albanian and [COLOR="Blue"][B]therefore may be of Illyrian origin rather than Dacian (1)[/B][/COLOR], as many contemporary scholars consider Albanian to be a modern descendant of the ancient Illyrian language.A possible example is Romanian brad ("fir-tree"), Alb. cognate bradh (same meaning) (2). Duridanov has reconstructed *skuia as a Dacian word for fir-tree,[COLOR="blue"][B]strengthening the possibility that brad may be an Illyrian word for this tree [/B][/COLOR](3).

[B]Ref:[/B]

(1) Polome 1982, p. 998.
(2) DEX brad.
(3) Duridanov 1969, p. 94.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Balaur ("dragon"), ascribed a Dacian origin by some scholars, exemplifies the etymological uncertainties. According to DEX, balaur has also been identified as: a pre-Indo-European relic; or derived from Latin belua or beluaria ("beast" cf. It. belva), or ancient Greek pelorion ("monster"); [COLOR="blue"][B]or as a cognate of Alb. buljar ("water-snake") thus possibly of Illyrian origin.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]To reach the Eastern Balkans, Baltoidic Pre-Thracians and Pre-Dacians had to pass through Albanoidic territory in the Carpathians. I believe they captured some Albanoidics and brought them to the Eastern Balkans as slaves. Some of these Albanoidics escaped westward into the mountains to hide. From these less hospitable, poorer West Balkan areas some of these escaped Albanoidics crossed the Adriatic to Italy and became known as Messapians.[COLOR="blue"][B] The rest remained in the Western Balkans and became known as Illyrians whose direct descendants, I believe, are the Albanians who, incidentally, have kept up their old tradition of wandering on to Italy. [/B][/COLOR]This scenario explains some of the Non-Romance, "native" lexical corespondences between Rumanian and Albanian. Some of these items are Thracian and Dacian words which the ancestors of the Albanians learned from their Baltoidic Thracian and Dacian masters.

[url]http://www.lituanus.org/1992_2/92_2_02.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The Polish linguist Milewski Tadeusz (1966 and 1969) suggests that in the southern regions of Poland appear names that are unusual in northern Poland, possibly related to Dacian [B][COLOR="blue"]or Illyrian names[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Albanian as the result of a mixture of Illyrian and Thracian or Dacian elements. (John Hewson, Vít Bubeník 1997: 104[/QUOTE]

Thus far I cling rather to the theory that a considerable proportion of Albanian names found in Romanian are because of the fact Illyrian has largely influenced Dacian. This rejects any possibility that Albanians have used to live in Dacia. It should be noted that most of Dacian words/names are not explained via Albanian.

Carlin 01-30-2013 07:54 PM

On pages 30, 32, and 33 of this thread I have already argued and posted links & quotes supporting a possible Mardaite origin of modern Albanians.

Herebelow are some additional screenshots.

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury1_zps2d4f25b9.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury2_zps08b943f2.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury3_zps241de98e.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Bury%20Mardaites/Bury4_zps2955f37d.png[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/VeikouEpirus_zps02cfdd96.png[/IMG]

Note that Nikopolis, Kephallenia, Dyrrachion refer to Byzantine (Roman) Themes or [U]Regions[/U] - not towns. Here is a quick map as a reference:
[url]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Byzantine_Greece_ca_900_AD.svg[/url]

[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou1_zps7a2aa498.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou2_zpscf2a7768.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Veikou3_zps1ff4dd64.png[/IMG]

Last paragraph:
[IMG]http://i1299.photobucket.com/albums/ag63/Carlin187/Marada_zpsc1a5d5d7.png[/IMG]


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:50 AM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation