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-   -   Origins of Albanian language and ethnos (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2012)

Risto the Great 02-08-2010 11:18 PM

Ahh the Circassians!
My pet theory .... !

TrueMacedonian 02-08-2010 11:34 PM

I would like to know when this theory began because this book was written in 1877. According to this author other writers have passed on the same info.

sf. 02-09-2010 03:31 AM

I don't like the 'Albanians from Caucasus' theories. The link is based on names (Latin/Roman) given by outsiders to the peoples of these regions. I noticed that there's also a Caucasian Iberia, which I think would have no real links with Spain. It's all suspect to me.

Risto the Great 02-10-2010 06:11 PM

But Macedonia has a history of Circassians migrating to it. It is worthy of more detailed review.

TrueMacedonian 02-24-2010 08:01 PM

[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Albanian%20myths/balazs.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Albanian%20myths/balazs121.jpg[/IMG]

Soldier of Macedon 06-05-2010 10:14 PM

Epirot, check the below link for a Thracian glossary.

[url]http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/glossary/thra.html[/url]

Are you able to explain why the majority of the words listed have a cognate and etymology in the Balto-Slavic group of languages? And why Albanian examples fall far short?

Serdarot 06-07-2010 03:26 AM

one typical "albanian" word

domaqin / domakjin

lol :)

makedonin 06-07-2010 04:14 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;25385]Ata also means father in Turkish, in addition to Baba. Same as Albanian. But the first word is interesting because it appears very close to European words such as Tato in Macedonian, Dad in English, etc. Not sure if they are related, but possible, if they are, then there is a case to support that Albanian used it before the Turks.[/QUOTE]


Ata is one of those cognates between Altaic and Indo European.

Ata is cognate to Ot'c ([URL="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-EI-X.html"]<отьць> father[/URL]) in Old Church Slavonic.

I found the following interesting:

[QUOTE]One of the most revolutionary theories presented here posits the existence of a "Superior Male god," one that had roots in the Hittite weather god and eventually became assimilated to Zeus, whose cults are even more well attested than those of Kybele in later epigraphical sources from Phrygia. The evidence is enticing but tenuous: double-idols that seem to represent Matar with a counterpart of equal importance, a relief from Gordion that pairs Matar with a bull, [B]and dedications to Ata/Tata in Paleo-phrygian inscriptions (including one step monument, though the reading is uncertain), possibly connected with the Hittite and Luwian words for father, atta(s) and tati.[/B] Berndt-Ersoz speculates that some of the earliest step monuments were symbolic thrones for this male deity, and that Matar came to prominence along with the development of the Phrygian state (perhaps at the instigation of Midas the Great) and eventually superseded the male god in importance. She theorizes that Midas promoted an anthropomorphic Matar for political motives, to connect himself with Greeks and their cults of goddesses.

[url]http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go2081/is_1_128/ai_n31946533/[/url]
[/QUOTE]
There were references about Tatos [URL="http://www.dicts.info/1/phrygian.php"]here[/URL] but now they are gone.

Chashule makes reference of the Phrygian Tatos in his "Burashaski etymologies" book as well.

Soldier of Macedon 07-15-2010 01:01 AM

[QUOTE=Bij;25207]No, I am not Albanian. Unless there's something I dont know????????? I've just studied a bit of Italian.

I don't believe Macedonian and Italian are linguistically linked, I just think there are a few words (latin) we've borrowed from them.

and, like i said in my earlier post, they've named their fruit salad after us :)

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h99/KajSiTiBudala/scan0008.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Hi Bij, I was going to respond to that pic you put up ages ago but have obviously missed it. Just wanted to point out that, aside from the garbage term 'macedoine salade' that was coined by some ignorant European fool, I wasn't aware that this was employed here. For example, as a rule, the pizza shops in Victoria quite often have a 'Macedonian special' on the menu, and it has nothing to do with the 'salade'. It is generally made with more spices, chillies, meats, etc, to give it a Macedonian 'feel', and it means just that, a pizza in the Macedonian 'fashion'.

Is it the same in any of the other states?

Epirot 07-27-2010 07:17 AM

Illyrian origin of the albanians
 
[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

I think you should open a new thread and put forth your arguments as to how you are descended from the Illyrians. I don't mean just quotes from writers post 19th century, I want to you to produce evidence of a historical, linguistic and cultural connection that makes sense in a logical context. I would be happy to discuss this with you as gentlemen, no problem, and I will ensure that the thread does not steer towards politics or other irrelevant topics. When you're ready.[/QUOTE]

I agree wholeheartedly, SoM! Here I'll invite all members to collect evidences [I]pro at contra[/I] Illyrian origin of the Albanians. I hope that this thread will not be polluted by political goals or ethnic prejudices...That's what I want!


[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

I don't know of any examples where Albanians claim (or are claimed) to be Illyrians prior to the mid 19th century. Am I wrong in anything I have said? Do you know of any examples prior to the mid 19th century?[/QUOTE]

That's untrue. Albanians claimed Illyrian (and sometimes Epirotic) parentage much early than 19th century. Kara Mahmud Bushati (of Bushatlli dynasty - a noble northern Albanian family: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Bushati[/url]) established a kind of alliance between Albanian local lords of Northern Albania, Montenegro and Hercegovina. It was called [I]'Illyrian confederacy[/I]' though it was short-lived for many objective reason.

Even the countryman of Karamahmut, the well-known governor of s[B][I]outh Albania or Pashaluk of Yannina[/I][/B], [B]Ali Pasha[/B] claim himself as descendant of [B][I]Pyrrhus (of Epirus)[/I][/B] and [B][I]Albanians as descendants of noble Epirots[/I][/B]. Many southern Albanian cities (like Elbasan for instance) have had many legends about their foundation when they acknowledged their city as Pyrro's foundation.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

The theory that modern Albanians were related to the ancient Illyrians was proposed for the first time by a German historian in 1774. The first detailed account of the ancient Illyrians appeared in the Albanesische Studien of J.G von Hahn, published at Jena in 1854, in which the author advanced the proposition that modern Albanians were descended from ancient Illyrians.[/QUOTE]

It's true that [I]Albanesische Studien[/I] is the first elaborative scientific account when Albanians are considered as Illyrian remains. But the view of Illyro-Albanian connection dated much earlier...many Byzantine chroniclers attributed an Illyrian origin for Albanians. In other words, 'Illyrian' was employed to denote the Medieval Albanians.

Frank 07-27-2010 07:22 AM

If the modern Greeks and Albanians can claim lineage to the ancients and declare it themselves then why are the modern Macedonians denied the same

That is all I got to say.

Soldier of Macedon 07-27-2010 08:04 AM

Frank, that much is obvious and we all agree, but let's keep the thread for discussion on the topic mate.

Toska 07-27-2010 08:05 AM

what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.

Toska 07-27-2010 08:07 AM

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement[/url]

In 19th century Europe, liberalism and nationalism were ideologies which came to the forefront of political culture. In Eastern Europe, where the Habsburg Empire had long asserted control over a variety of ethnic and cultural groups, nationalism appeared in a standard format. The beginning of the 19th century "was the period when the smaller, mostly Slavic nationalities of the empire - Czechs, Slovaks, Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Ukrainians - remembered their historical traditions, revived their native tongues as literary languages, reappropriated their traditions and folklore, in short reasserted their existence as nations."[2] [B]This revival of national heritage encompasses the Illyrian Movement in Croatia.[/B]

Toska 07-27-2010 08:41 AM

Count George Brankovic (1645-1711), self-proclaimed 'Despot of Illyria'


Count George Brankovic has proclaimed himself 'Despot of Illyria', a state that would include all 'Illyrian, Thracian, Moesian and other Eastern lands, the lands of St Sava, Herzegovina, Montenegro, Bosnia, Sirmia and other lands of Hungarian Kingdom'.

"After he had got a certificate from Patriarch Arsenie, which confirmed his descent of Serbain Despot family Brankovic, in order to proclaim himself [B]despot of independent Illyrian[/B] state under the name of Despot George Brankovic II, he informed Emperor Leopold I about the idea. His plans were declined by the Austrian Court and he was given the title of count instead.

"After proclaiming the invitation to the Serbian people to follow him as their despot, and to start a struggle for freedom against the Turks, he was captured in Kladovo in 1689 by Austrian authorities and held captive until he died in 1711."

DUŠAN J. POPOVIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1690. (Great Migration of Serbs in 1690), Belgrade 1954.
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic, Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Cardinal Leopold Kollonich (1631-1707), [B]Minister of State and Privy imperial councilor, names the arrived Serbs as 'Illyrians or Rascians[/B]' in 1706:

Cardinal Kollonich wrote to Emperor Leopold I in 1706 that the Privileges allowing the freedom of Orthodox religion cannot be allowed, and that Serbs cannot be allowed to remain in their "schismatic" faith, and continues : "... it has to be done in a quiet and silent way so that all these Illyrian or Rascian people can be brought to union with Roman Church, from which it merely differs at all."

RADOSLAV M. GRUJIĆ, Како се поступало са српским молбама на двору цесара Австријског последње године живота патријарха Арсенија III Црнојевића (The way Serbian pledges were treated on the Court of Austrian Caesar during the last year of life of Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1906.

--------------

Serbian national Privileges in Habsburg Monarchy were titled to
[B]'Illyrian [/B]nation'


Front page of the first printed version of Serbian Privileges in 1715, Vienna:

PRIVILEGIA
PER
DIVOS
IMPERATORES
LEOPOLDUM
ET
JOSEPHUM
GLORIOSISSIMĘ REMINISCENTIĘ
NEC NON
MODERNAM REGNANTEM
MAJESTATEM,
CAROLUM VI.
INCLYTĘ
NATIONI ILLYRICĘ

[B]'ILLYRIO SERBICA 1683-1715 (1723)' papers, Haus, Hof u. Staat. Archiv Wien[/B]
STEFAN ČAKIĆ, Велика сеоба Срба 1689/90 и патријарх Арсеније III Црнојевић (Great Migration of Serbs in 1689/90 and Patriarch Arsenie III Crnojevic), Novi Sad 1990.

-----------

Sava Tekelija (also: Tököli Szįva, 1761-1841)
the leader of Illyrian political thought of his time


In 1804 Sava Tekelija sent a Memorandum to Emperor Napoleon I, proposing the creation of a [B]vast Illyran Kingdom - a large South Slav[/B] state that would, under the auspices of France, encompass the most of the Serb and Slav-inhabited Balkan regions. A year later, Tekelija sent a similar, slightly revised project to the Habsburg Emperor Francis I.

S. TEKELIJA, Opisanije života (Biography), Beograd: Prosveta 1966, pp. 171-187, 379-396.

---------------

This one was very interesting.....

When they, supported by Europe, unite into a large Illyrian Kingdom that would join together Bosnia, Bulgaria, Dalmatia, Croatia, Slovenia, Montenegro, Macedonia, Albania, Dubrovnik and Serb-inhabited areas of Hungary with Serbia, this kingdom will be a powerful barrier against those powers, namely Austria and Russia, that would try to establish their domination in the Balkans. However, in a similar memorandum submitted to Emperor Franz I in 1805, Count Tekelija mentioned only Russia as a potential threat to the Balkans.

S. GAVRILOVIĆ, Vojvodina i Srbija u vreme prvog srpskog ustanka (Vojvodina and Serbia during the Serbian Uprising I), Novi Sad: Institut za istoriju 1974 pp.20-24.

-------

Official languages of Dukedom Serbia and Tamis Banat in 1849


When Dukedom (Vojvodina) of Serbia and Tamis Banat was established in 1849, Serbian language, which became official beside German, was named [B]'Illyrian':[/B]

The two official languages of the province were German and [B]"Illyrian"[/B] (what would become Serbo-Croatian).

Wikipedia, Vojvodina of Serbia and Tamiš Banat -> en.wikipedia.org ([url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vojvodina_of_Serbia_and_Tami%C5%A1_Banat[/url])

Epirot 07-27-2010 10:40 AM

[QUOTE=Toska;65049]what about Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves Illirski and their language Illirski Jazik, ive seen this in a few 16th century books.[/QUOTE]

Hi Toska,

Indeed there are documents that do provide Croatians/Bosnians/Serbs calling themselves [I]Illirski[/I] or their language [I]Illirski Jazik[/I] but we must search what was the essence of '[I]Illirski[/I]' at that time!? The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one). In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Blue"]Between 600 and 650 the main body of the immigrants occupied Illyria[/COLOR][/B] (see Servia: History; and Slavs). [B][COLOR="blue"]It consisted of Croats and Serbs, two groups of tribes who spoke a single language and were so closely related that the origin of the distinction between them is obscure.[/COLOR][/B] The Croats settled in the western half of Illyria, the Serbs in the eastern; [COLOR="blue"][B]thus the former came gradually under the influence of Italy and Roman Catholicism[/B][/COLOR], the latter under the influence of Byzantium and the Greek Church. Hence the distinction between them became a marked difference of civilization and creed, which has always tended to keep the Illyrian Slavs politically disunited.

[B][COLOR="blue"]The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. [/COLOR][/B]But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see Dalmatia: Population; and Vlachs), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries. [COLOR="Red"][B]The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized.[/B][/COLOR] [B][U]With these exceptions[/U] Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.[/B]

[url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/secondary/EB1911/Illyria*.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Conclusions:

1) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian in administrative manner not ethnic one
2) Slavs were stereotyped as Illyrian because the churches of western Balkan makes places in dioceses of Illyricum.

Here I'd like to post thoughts of one of the best living authorities on Illyrians, Alexander Stipceviē:

[QUOTE]I[COLOR="red"][B]n the first half of the 19th century, the title Illyrian acquired a clear political function among the Croats.[/B][/COLOR] The leaders of the Croatian national movement called themselves "Illyrians" (Ilirci). Moreover, the theory of the Illyrian origin of the Croats was at this time embodied in academic form by Ljudevit Gaj, the greatest ideologue of the national movement. It was hi who published a book entitled "Who Were the Old Illyrians?"(3) This treated the question from a historical angle, but which political aims. [COLOR="red"][B]Gay knew full well that any theory of a direct descent of today’s Croats from the old Illyrians was somehow an exaggeration.[/B][/COLOR] [B]However, he believed that [U]the name Illyrian would be the cement binding together the South Slavs[/U] in a new cultural and economic entity and a powerful political alliance that could confront the age-old enemies of the South Slav peoples.[/B]

[B][COLOR="Red"]The Illyrian ideology of the Croatian national movement was leavened with same doubtful ideas[/COLOR][/B]. [COLOR="Blue"]It was not by chance that, after initial enthusiasm, critics of the idea grasped its weak points and easly refuted Gaj’s basic thesis of the South Slavs[/COLOR].

[...][COLOR="blue"][B]As time passed, the idea of a direct link between the Illyrians and the Croats was gradually abandoned[/B].[/COLOR] [COLOR="Red"][B]It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the final blow to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs.[/B][/COLOR] In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that [B]the South Slavs could not be considered the direct descendants of the ancient Illyrians, but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a long and complicated ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs.[/B]

[url]http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Soldier of Macedon 07-27-2010 11:39 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]That's untrue. Albanians claimed Illyrian (and sometimes Epirotic) parentage much early than 19th century. Kara Mahmud Bushati (of Bushatlli dynasty - a noble northern Albanian family: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara_Mahmud_Bushati[/url]) established a kind of alliance between Albanian local lords of Northern Albania, Montenegro and Hercegovina. It was called 'Illyrian confederacy' though it was short-lived for many objective reason.[/QUOTE]
According to the link Bushati was alive during the second half of the 18th century, around the same time that the German writer first proposed the idea of an Illyrian connection for the Albanians. These two events may or may not be related. However, there is not a single citation or source in the Wikipedia link to the article. Is there any evidence that Bushati claimed to be an Illyrian himself, which is recorded in documents and such? Any record of an 'Illyrian confederacy'? The name wouldn't suprise me too much in this regard, as the majority of Bushati's realm appears to be Montenegrin and Bosnian rather than Albanian. We both know that the former, along with the Serbs and particularly the Croats, fashioned an Illyrian tradition and heritage that is recorded in a number of medieval documents.
[QUOTE].......many Byzantine chroniclers attributed an Illyrian origin for Albanians.[/QUOTE]
Which writers? Can you cite the sources and quotations?

In my opinion, from what I have seen, references to an Epirot/Albanian connection appear more frequent than those with Illyrians. Would you agree? What does Barletti say?

Big Bad Sven 07-28-2010 01:07 AM

In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia.

Soldier of Macedon 07-28-2010 03:05 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]The Slavs were labeled Illyrian not because they were ethnically Illyrians but because they used to live in territories of ILLYRICUM (you see it's an administrative term not ethnic one).[/QUOTE]
Illyricum, as a Roman administrative unit, disappeared centuries before relevant Latin and German documents were making reference to the 'Slavs' as Illyrians. Furthermore, the Illyrian name was too broad, even in antiquity, to have been a single 'ethnic' designate, although I do believe that most Illyrians were of the same linguistic family. So the reason you have provided does not validate the point you're trying to make. If the 'Slavs' were labelled Illyrians due to the territories they lived in, can you provide other examples of people that lived in the same area and during the same period being labelled Illyrians? Can you provide examples of the same people, be they Albanian, Vlach or other, having their language known as Illyrian?
[QUOTE]In other cases (I am talking for the Slavs) they were attributed as Illyrians because the Christianism of Western Balkan was called 'Illyrian' as was case later with the Greek Christianism. I hope you get what I am attempting to explain...[/QUOTE]
Are you implying that the Illyrian name was a synonym for 'West Balkan Christians'? If so, in what era was this the case? Can you clarify and corroborate with some examples and sources?
[QUOTE]The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized.[/QUOTE]
That is a matter of opinion, not a matter of fact. Furthermore, it goes against the grain of your own historical reality - how can Albanians remain untouched by both Romans and 'Slavs' yet the majority of the Albanian language consists of words foreign to the native Albanian tongue? How do you think this came about?
[QUOTE]It was the writer and philologist Bogoslav Sulek who delivered the [B]final blow[/B] to the theory of the Illyrian origin of the South Slavs. In 1844, he published a treatise on the idea that the South [B]Slavs could [U]not be considered the direct descendants[/U] of the ancient Illyrians[/B], but that the Slavs living in the western part of the Balkan peninsula were the result of a [B]long and complicated [U]ethnogenetic process involving the Illyrians[/U] but also the Romans, Celts, Goths, and, finally, the Slavs[/B].

[url]http://www.alb-net.com/illyrians.htm[/url][/QUOTE]
What do you consider the 'final blow' in the above general opinion of Sulek? I don't see how the underlined parts diminish the Illyrian heritage of Slovenes, Croats, Serbs, Montenegrins and Bosnians. Hardly a 'final blow' in my opinion, in fact, it is realistic and accepting of historical reality, if read logically and in proper context.

Do you think Celts, Goths, etc overlooked the region of today's Albania? Do you think the Albanian ethnos didn't undergo its own ethnogenetic process? There is more than one interpretation of 'direct' descent, what exactly do you consider it as?

makedonin 07-28-2010 04:43 AM

Here is a [URL="http://books.google.de/books?id=CekIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=Illyrisch+deutsches+und+deutsch+illyrisches#v=onepage&q&f=false"]Illyrian-German and German-Illyrian dictionary[/URL].

Here is part of the introduction of the above mentioned dictionary!

[QUOTE]Introduction

Illirian language is spoken as mother tongue not only in Austria, but also in other foreighn conuntries, specially in the Turkish countries, where we find more than fife milion people who use the language as mother toungue.

In non other language of any people we don't finde more dialectics that are easy comprehendable between each other, as we find in the Illyrian.

The ancient name Illyricum finds its beginning somewhere about 13th Centur BC. The Illyrian language is today spoken in all those countries that are listed on the Cover (Croatia, Slavonia, Srem, Dalmatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Albania, Dubrovnik, Montenegro, Herzegovina, Banat, Ungaria etc.) with very small variation in the dialects.

Apart from the mentioned countries and provinces, the there are languages who has their beginning in the Illyrian language, which are found in Kraina, Primoria, Czechia, Moravia, Slezia, Poland and Russia.

They are all of the Illyrian stock, speak the one and the same basis of the same language, and are differable only in the dialects.[/QUOTE]

It at least gives a picture of what they meant by Illyrian language.

Frank 07-28-2010 05:28 AM

Is it a mere coincedence that a aptly named Illyrian language is spoken amogst most Slavic speaking Nations

The doesnt work out well for Albanian Nationlism

Epirot 07-28-2010 06:21 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;65119]According to the link Bushati was alive during the second half of the 18th century, around the same time that the German writer first proposed the idea of an Illyrian connection for the Albanians. These two events may or may not be related.
[/QUOTE]

They aren't related since Bushati has no clue what a German historian (like Thumman) did write at the same time.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

However, there is not a single citation or source in the Wikipedia link to the article. Is there any evidence that Bushati claimed to be an Illyrian himself, which is recorded in documents and such? Any record of an 'Illyrian confederacy'? [/QUOTE]

I brought up a link of Wiki in order to present his biography. Here is an article regarding Illyrian confederacy orchestrated by Bushati:

[url]http://vargmal.org/dan5230[/url]

I guess you can use 'Google translator' for a translation since in its current form the article is in Albanian.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

The name wouldn't suprise me too much in this regard, as the majority of Bushati's realm appears to be Montenegrin and Bosnian rather than Albanian. We both know that the former, along with the Serbs and particularly the Croats, fashioned an Illyrian tradition and heritage that is recorded in a number of medieval documents.[/QUOTE]

You're right when you say that most of Bushati's realm encompassed what is today Montenegro and a little strip of Southern Bosnia.

[QUOTE][B]By the early fourteenth century[/B] t[B][COLOR="Red"][B]here are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence[/B][/COLOR][/B] in the [COLOR="Blue"][B]mountains of Montenegro, and as far north as the Ragusan hinterland.[/B][/COLOR]

KOSOVO A SHORT HISTORY, Noel Malcolm, 1999, pg. 28[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The Gheghides, who boast of having numbered among them such a hero as Scanderbeg, unite, according to the learned topographer of Greece (Colonel Leake), “the cruelty of the Albanian to the dulness of the Bulgarian.” They have long enjoyed a greater share of independence, under the Pashas of Scodra, than any other of the Albanian tribes. They are equally good soldiers with the latter, and have preserved more of their natural stubbornness, from the fact of their having been less often employed as such by the Turks. Their country extends from the frontier of the Austrian territory of Cattaro round the Montenegro, which may be considered an independent state; and, following the ridges which unite it to Mount Scardus, [B][COLOR="Red"]it reaches the Herzegovina[/COLOR][/B], while it is bounded on the south by the river Drino. Scutari, or Scodra, is their chief town, and Dulcigno, Alessio, and Durazzo belong to them.

1848
James Henry Skeene:
The Albanians

[url]http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html[/url][/QUOTE]

...Skeene emphasized that northern Albanian boundaries reaches as far as Hercegovina.

[QUOTE]M.E. Durham (1863-1944), who travelled widely in Albania and Montenegro and devoted much time to the study of Montenegrin and Albanian tribes, [B][COLOR="Blue"]came to the conclusion that the Montenegrin is not so much a Slav [U]as a Slavized descendant of the older inhabitants[/U][/COLOR][/B], [B][COLOR="Red"]i.e., of Vlachs, and Albanians[/COLOR][/B] (see Some Tribal Origins, Laws, and Customs in the Balkans, London, 1928, PP. 13-59).

[B][COLOR="red"]That the Montenegrin tribes were originally Albanian tribes was already indicated by K. Jirecek, "Albanien in der Vergangenheit,"[/COLOR][/B] Illyrisch-Albanische Forschungen, (Munchen und Leipzig 1916, p. 69).

[B][U]The marked distinction between the Serbs and the Montenegrins was pointed out by Prof. Savo Birkovic[/U][/B] in a recent work: 0 postanku i rasvoju Crnogorske nacje, Graficki Zavod, Titograd, 1980.
[url]http://www.home.no/dukagjin/Footnotes.html[/url][/QUOTE]

So not in the all cases when Byzantine authors recorded Illyrians in Croatia, Bosnia and Montenegro were referencing to Slavs since the above proofs affirms strongly for a well-established presence of Albanians in these regions. I am going to say that Illyrian term might been used to denote the Albanians.

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

Which writers? Can you cite the sources and quotations?[/QUOTE]

For the moment I haven't the quotes since I am not writing from my house. I promise that I'll post here some Byzantine sources regarding Albanians as Illyrians. In the following passage are thoughts of Fallmerayer (who was based entirely on Byzantine chroniclers):

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="red"]For not a single drop of real pure Hellenic blood flows in the veins of the Chrisitian population of modern Greece.[/COLOR][/B] A terrific hurricane has dispersed throughout the space between the Ister and most distant corner of the Peloponnesus a new tribe akin to the great Slavonic race. The Scythian Slavs, [B][COLOR="red"]the [COLOR="Blue"][B]Illyrian Arnauts[/B][/COLOR], children of Northern lands[/COLOR][/B], the blood relations of the Serbs and Bulgars, the Dalmatians and Moscovites – those are the people whom we call Greeks at present…

History of the Peninsula of Morea in the Middle Ages

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=RtM0qClcIX4C&pg=PA177&dq=10.000+illyrian+arnauts+greece&hl=en&ei=_g5QTOToBaKfOMnf3JQB&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]Soldier of Macedon[/B]

In my opinion, from what I have seen, references to an Epirot/Albanian connection appear more frequent than those with Illyrians. Would you agree? What does Barletti say?[/QUOTE]

It's true that Medieval sources linked Albanians more with Epirots rathern than Illyrians. As you said Barletti used very often 'Epirus' to describe Albania and 'Epirots' for Albanians. But this does not reject Illyrians as forefathers of Albanians because Epirots were nothing else but a close cognates of Illyrians.

Epirot 07-28-2010 09:35 AM

Being linked with Epirots, as I said before, do not reject our Illyrian lineage because Epirots are nothing but southern Illyrian group of tribes. Here I'd like to present a citation from Plutarch who marks a linguistic distinction between Epirots and Greeks.

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Blue"]Of the Thesprotians and Molossians[/COLOR][/B] after the great inundation, the first king, according to some historians, [B][COLOR="blue"]was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus[/COLOR][/B]. Others tell us that Deucalion and Pyrrha, having set up the worship of Jupiter at Dodona, settled there among the Molossians. In after time, Neoptolemus, Achilles's son, planting a colony, possessed these parts himself, and left a succession of kings, who, after him, was named Pyrrhidae, as he in his youth was called Pyrrhus, and of his legitimate children, one was born of Lanassa, daughter of Cleodaeus, [COLOR="blue"]Hyllus[/COLOR]'s son, had also that name. [B][COLOR="Red"][B]From him Achilles came to have divine honours in Epirus,under the name of Aspetus[/B][/COLOR][/B], [COLOR="Blue"][B]in the language of the country[/B][/COLOR]. [B]After these first kings, those of the following intervening times becoming barbarous[/B], and insignificant both in their power and their lives, [B][COLOR="blue"]Tharrhypas is said to have been the first who, by introducing Greek manners and learning[/COLOR][/B], and humane laws into his cities, left any fame of himself. Alcetas was the son of Tharrhypas, Arybas of Alcetas, and of Arybas and Troas his queen, Aeacides; he married Phthia, the daughter of Menon, the Thessalian, a man of note at the time of the Lamiac war, and of highest command in the confederate army next to Leosthenes. To Aeacides were born of Phthia, Deidamia and Troas, daughters, and Pyrrhus, a son.

[url]http://www.greektexts.com/library/Pl...s/eng/824.html[/url][/QUOTE]

a) Plutarch pointed out that king Tharrypas was the first who introduced '[I][B]Greek manners and learning[/B][/I]'. Again I persist on the frequently asked question: If Epirus was the 'heart of Greece' mean that Epirotes were somehow the 'nucleus' of all Greeks. If Epirotes were being of 'central Greeks' [B]then Plutarch would not say that Tharrypas introduced 'Greek learning' on Epirus?[/B] [B][U]It does not make sense to introduce 'Greek manners and learning' in the centre of all Hellenes![/U][/B]

b) Again if Epirotes spoke any tongue close to the Greek, then Plutarch would not need to emphasize '[I]the language of the country[/I]' that mean [B]obviously a entirely different language from Greek.[/B] Achilles himself never is related in 'Iliad' with the word 'Aspetos'. The only one who called Achilles as '[B][U][U][I]Aspetos[/I][/U][/U][/B]' is Plutarch. The official etymology of 'Aspetos' related with '[B][I]unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless[/I][/B],' is not well-attested because it contains somehow some primaries logic mistakes. Plutarch said clearly that Achilles has divine status among Epirotes; if Epirotes honored someone as 'Divine' they could not attribute this 'divine status' to someone which is 'unspeakable'.

1. [B]Aspetos = A + Spet(os)[/B]; [B]'A[/B]' is the short trait of [B][I]'asht'[/I][/B] (mean "[I]is[/I]" in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. [B][I]'Shpejtė'[/I][/B] mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtė' in 'Shpetė'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. '[B][I]A shpetė[/I][/B]',
Aspetos = A shpetė mean '[B][I]He is fast/quickly'. [/I][/B]

[IMG]http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/13/95/49/70/untitl35.jpg[/IMG]

2. This version of explanation has a sufficient logic base since Homer like to use for Achilles the epithet as '[B]swift-footed[/B]' ([I]podas ōkus[/I]), a clear indication of swiftness of every action of Achilles.

A characteristic of Homer's style is the use of epithets, as in "rosy-fingered" dawn or "swift-footed" Achilles. These epithets were metric stop-gaps as well as mnemonic devices for the aoidos (singer) — both, signs of the deep oral tradition that preceded the written codification of the Iliad and Odyssey.

[QUOTE]Moreover, epithets in epic poetry from various Indo-European traditions [B][COLOR="Red"]may be traced to a common tradition going much deeper into prehistory.[/COLOR][/B] For example, the phrase approximating "everlasting glory" or "undying fame" can be found in the Homeric Greek kleos aphthiton and the Sanskrit śrįvo įkşitam. They "were, in terms of historical linguistics, equivalent in phonology, accentuation, and quantity (syllable length). In other words, they are descendants from a fragment of poetic diction (reconstructable as Proto-Indo-European *klewos ņdhgwhitom) which was handed down in parallel over many centuries, in continually diverging forms, by generations of singers whose ultimate ancestors shared an archetypal repertoire of poetic formulae and narrative themes."[1]

A name plus an epithet constitute a formula which exactly fits the metric structure of the verse. The use of formulas is characteristic of ancient epic poetry.

Homer used epithets not merely to complete rhythm patterns. [COLOR="red"][B]Epithets increase the meaning of each noun that they alter. Epithets can tell of the character’s origin, parentage, appearance or state, skill-set, position, or heroic quality. [/B][/COLOR]At the same time, he distinguishes between Homer’s two different types of epithets: the special and the generic. Special epithets are used exclusively for a particular character, while generic epithets are used repeatedly for a class of characters. Yet this distinction is not always clear; thus, the epithet “master of the war-cry” is used predominantly with Menelaus, yet on occasion also to describe Diomedes.[2]
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Then answered him [B][COLOR="red"]Achilles swift of foot[/COLOR][/B]: "Most noble son of Atreus, Agamemnon king of men, for the gifts, to give them as it beseemeth, if so thou wilt, or to withhold, is in thy choice. But now let us bethink us of battle with all speed; this is no time to dally here with subtleties, for a great work is yet undone. Once more must Achilles be seen in the forefront of the battle, laying waste with his brazen spear the battalions of the men of Troy. Thereof let each of you think as he fighteth with his man."

[url]http://homer.classicauthors.net/illiad/illiad19.html[/url]
[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://i15.servimg.com/u/f15/13/95/49/70/untitl36.jpg[/IMG]

Alan Cameron raises two important conclusions:
i) 'Aspetos' is a patronym (as is it proofed by a fragmentary poem found on papayrus
ii) 'Aspetos' like Prometheus is a man's name

What's wrong with Greek explanation versions?

Finally, [I]'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless[/I]' cannot be attested neither as patronym nor as man's name, because it does not make sense to have patronyms like this: 'unspeakable,unspeakably great,endless' or even worst as man's name.

Epirot 07-28-2010 09:58 AM

[QUOTE]Illyrian culture is believed to have evolved from the Stone Age and to have manifested itself in the territory of Albania towardthe beginning of the Bronze Age, about 2000 BC. The Illyrians were not a uniform body of people but a conglomeration of many tribes [B][COLOR="Red"]that inhabited the western part of the Balkans, from what is now Slovenia in the northwest to and[I] including the region of Epirus[/I], which extends about halfway down the mainland of modern Greece.[/COLOR][/B] In general, Illyrians in the highlands of Albania were more isolated than those in the lowlands, and their culture evolved more slowly--a distinction that persisted throughout Albania's history.

Encyclopedia Britannica [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Many tumuli (burial mounds) containing Illyrian objects made of bronze and iron were discovered at Glasinac (Bosnia), Koman (Albania), and other parts of southeastern Europe. [COLOR="red"][B]At the height of their expansion the Illyrians extended their frontiers from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia[/B][/COLOR] and from the Adriatic Sea to the Shar Mountains.

The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1, 1987, pg. 212
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]At the height of its dominance in the region,[B][COLOR="red"]Illyria extended from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia[/COLOR][/B] on the Adriatic, to the Sar mountains.

Women rulers throughout the ages: an illustrated guide, Guida Myrl Jackson-Laufer - 1999, pg. 382
[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]"Philip contracted an alliance with [B][COLOR="red"]Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians[/COLOR][/B], and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".

(~The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography~ pg.409)[/QUOTE]

I think that is enough to confirm the Illyrian ethnic essence of Epirots.

Epirot 07-28-2010 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=Big Bad Sven;65132]In his book, "The Illyrians", John Wilkes states on pg: 219:

"NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS."

Wilkes, having published this work in the early 90s ruined the earlier accepted theory that Albanians were the descendants of the Illyrians. Wilkes is the foremost authority on Illyrians in the world today. An anthropologist, archeologist, a published historian and Professor of History whose familiarity with Balkan archeology is first hand, Wilkes' conclusions lead to the conclusion that the modern descendants of the Illyrians may in fact lie in Bosnia, Serbia and Dalmatia.[/QUOTE]

Wilkes do not ruined the theory of Illyrian origin of Albanians. Citing just a truncated passage of Wilkes does not give any proof of generalizing his conceptions. Citing in such way (of Wilkes) I met in some "Greek" sites who proclaim the Hellenism of everything! For the sake of truth I shall cite another passages of the same author that affirm the opposite of your beloved quotes. Follow me:

[QUOTE]The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, [B][COLOR="Red"]of whom the majority have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian[/COLOR][/B]'

J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278 [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]'It is not doubted whether or not Albs are indigenous, its whether they were directly from Albania or from some northern part. For instance,[B][COLOR="red"] it is argued, that Albanians have their origins in Southern Serbia [/COLOR][/B]' (Wilkes: 224[/QUOTE]

Let's turn for a while at your beloved quote:

[QUOTE]NOT MUCH RELIANCE SHOULD PERHAPS BE PLACED ON ATTEMPTS TO IDENTIFY AN ILLYRIAN ANTHROPOLOGICAL TYPE AS SHORT AND DARK SKINNED SIMMILAR TO MODERN ALBANIANS[/QUOTE]

The quote on modern Albanians being "short and dark skinned" is not his. It was taken from the book 'Skeletal evidence' of Alexander Stipcevic, page 262, published over thirty years ago (in 1977). Stipcevic himself claims that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians !!!!

After all Wilkes isn't anthropologist or he hasn't make any specific research on the physical stature of Albanians. Instead of citing an inaccurate statement, it's time to ask from authorities on that matter.

[QUOTE]'The stature of the Geghs is extremely variable geographically. [B][COLOR="red"]the tribes which touch Montenegro have means of 173 cm, and 174 cm [/COLOR][/B]... On the south side of the Drin the means fall to 169 cm, and continues to the level of 167 cm, in Mati and Mirdita...[B][COLOR="red"]Almost all of the Geghs are light-skinned[/COLOR][/B]'.
(Coon 1939 [url]http://www.snpa.nordish.net/chapter-XII13.htm[/url])[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE].'At last I asked him on what he based his judgment, "Well" was the answer " look at my servant" [COLOR="red"][B]The man turned out to be a characteristic Albanian - [U]tall[/U], handsome, and doubtless as honest and brave as his eyes were frank and fearless[/B][/COLOR], while his whole bearing conveyed that suggestion of mingled courtesy and independence which makes the peculiar charm of his race' (BRAILSFORD 1903:223)
'Macedonia and its races' - [url]http://kroraina.com/knigi/en/hb/hb_8_1.html[/url]

2. '[B][COLOR="red"]But here are men of distinction, tall[/COLOR][/B], swarthy, proud in their carriage. These are Albanians with quilted white peticoats, black caps, silver-braced coats and a couple of revolvers stuck in the gridle.'
(FOSTER 1906:185) 'Pictures from the Balkans'
[url]www.promacedonia.org/en/jf/jf_18.html[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]4. 'Do Albanians look like Serbs ?. No, The Serbs often have black or dark brown hair and are generally darker and more heavily built than Albanians. Their appearance is fairly typical of Southern Slavs. [COLOR="red"][B]By contrast Kosovars look Celtic to a British eye. They have curly hair, which is often blonde or rust, and their skin tends to be very pale and covered in freckles[/B][/COLOR]. [B][COLOR="red"]Their eyes are often green or blue[/COLOR][/B] and their built is much more slender than that of Serbs'.

MARCUS TANNER - 'INDEPENDENT' - 11 May 1999


5. 'It has been all the more painful to witness the suffering of the people of Kosovo because [B][COLOR="red"]they look and live so much like us.[/COLOR][/B]

TOM UTLEY - 'DAILY TELEGRAPH' - 26 March 1999[/QUOTE]

Epirot 07-28-2010 03:02 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;65143]
Are you implying that the Illyrian name was a synonym for 'West Balkan Christians'? If so, in what era was this the case? Can you clarify and corroborate with some examples and sources?
[/QUOTE]

Have you ever heard of "Illyrian Bulgaria"?

[QUOTE]In 904-930 it seems that even a Byzantine and Slavonic-Byzantine stronghold like Sardica was falling under the Moesian Turkish presence and union or influence, though the local Slavinias sure were always keeping their power – recognizing formally some alliance or union with Moesian Turkihs principality, and those Slavinias were after 927-930 originating the great Illyrian empire of the Comitopouls, under Moesian Turkish king Peter I Moesian Turkish state is losing the conquests of prince Simeon, Rassa-Serbia is so separating in 927-930 and so is the neighboring Shopeskho.

It is notable that the Byzantine sources were always naming the four brothers – Slavonic-Byzantine Shope princes as “Comitopouls” that is as sons of a comita or comes-count but not being a comita for some of them, meaning that their father “the mighty comes-count of Sredets-Sofia Nikola” was losing its title long ago (before transferring it to some of his sons) – as a Byzantine either as Moesian Turkish comes-count – as his lands were since long ago losing their union with one of both monarchies and he couldn’t be succeeded from his sons as his title was lost before that. Thus the anti-Byzantine revolt of Comitopouls was started in one staying formally Byzantine land from long separated from Turkish Moesia (after Byzantine and Russian attacks over Turkish Moesia Comitopolus were starting pretending also on lands of the quickly and inevitably disappearing Moesian Turkish state).

If Moesian Turkish prince Peter I was receiving from Byzantine emperor title of Caesar or Kaiser (highest court title after imperial one in Byzantium, already received from a Moesian Turkish khan Tervel in 705) with title as patriarch for Moesian Turkish archbishop – which though staying canonically submitted to the patriarch in Constantinople (same as for example the Abkhazian patriarch-Catholicos was staying submitted to one of Georgia), great Illyrian Bulgarian Slavonic-Byzantine empire was first time establishing later known and used imperial Slavonic title as “tsar” – documented for Illyrian Bulgarian tsars Samuel and John-Vladislav (first named as “Autocrat”), and with its independent patriarchate was giving birth to first independent European national Church recognized from emperor Basil with three imperial charters in 1019-20 – the Church transferred from him important part of power over principal territories of Illyrian Bulgarian empire (that is the Illyrian Bulgaria proper) now in union with great Byzantium, the reformed from Basil “autocephalous” [B][COLOR="Blue"]that is independent archbishopric of Ohrid and of “Bulgaria” was transferred the official great state seal of the Illyrian Bulgarian empire. [/COLOR][/B]

With its enormous territory reaching from Illyria with North Greece and Bosnia or Dalmatia to Slovakia, South Poland and South Russia or Black sea – it was first great Slavonic empire with the first Slavonic-Byzantine culture, centers and schools and Church, and which playing principal role in Christianization of neighbors Poland and Russia, strategic alliance is established with powerful Hungarian neighbor (later playing important role in Illyrian Bulgarian history, policy, directions), and empire becoming later united in a monarchical union with great Byzantium (in 1018-1204).

Union with Illyrian Bulgaria was greatest victory and success of greatest Byzantine Medieval emperor Basil II, like his contemporaries and himself are rightfully considering – for fighting Illyrian Bulgaria the empire is concentrating on Balkans after the year 1000 its principal military forces of more than 100 thousand soldiers. Byzantine attacks are ravaging principally the Slavonic-Byzantine Macedonia whose Slavinias are the traditional opposers of Byzantium. [/QUOTE]

However, John Van Antwerp Fine's book gives answer to many of your questions:

[QUOTE][url]http://books.google.com/books?id=p3oGybOY1w4C&pg=PA262&dq=illyrian+church+bulgaria&hl=en&ei=So1QTLuwF5GUOJiNgOUI&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=illyrian%20church%20bulgaria&f=false[/url][/QUOTE]

Epirot 07-28-2010 03:12 PM

[QUOTE=Frank;65146]Is it a mere coincedence that a aptly named Illyrian language is spoken amogst most Slavic speaking Nations

The doesnt work out well for Albanian Nationlism[/QUOTE]

Actually it does not work out well for Pan-Slavic Nationalism because:

[QUOTE][B]Albanian Ties with Illyrian[/B]

Many lines of reasoning convince linguistic scholars that the Albanian people and language originated with the ancient lllyrians.
1. The national name Albania is the name Albanoi, an Illyrian tribe mentioned by the geographer Ptolemy of Alexandria about A.D 150.

2. The Albanoi territory then centered at Albanopoli, between Durrės and Kruja, the heartland of modern Albania.

3. Four peoples speaking their own languages lived in the Balkans in ancient times: the Greeks in the south, the Macedonians in the center, the Thracians in the east and the lllyrians in the west. Today Albanian is spoken in most of the same region where Illyrian was spoken in ancient times.

4. Those few language elements which are known as Illyrian can be explained through the Albanian language, and no other.

5. A linguistic comparison of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin indicates that Albanian was formed as a language at an earlier period than those other ancient languages.

6. Archeological and historical data witness to the cultural continuity from the lllyrians to the Albanians. Continual contact with other peoples and languages has left its traces in the Albanian vocabulary. Foreign words have been borrowed from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish, yet Albanian has been preserved as a separate language, its grammatical system remaining virtually unchanged.

7. Linguists point out many technical similarities between Illyrian and Albanian words.

8. Borrowings from northern Greek and from Latin incorporated in the Albanian language reflect the well-known political and cultural pressures on Illyrian territory. Linguistic studies indicate that Albanian developed from Illyrian as a distinct language between the fourth and sixth centuries A.D. Thus ancient borrowings of Greek and Latin vocabulary could not have moved directly into Albanian, but into Illyrian, through which these words entered into Albanian. Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from ancient Greek were in the Dorian dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns. Latin borrowings came later during the lengthy Roman occupation (NAlb 1986, 3:32). These ancient Greek and Roman contacts occurred precisely in the territory of old Illyria, leaving their traces in the Illyrian language from which they later passed into the Albanian language.

9. Illyrian toponyms, ancient Illyrian place names for cities, rivers and mountains, are preserved today in the Albanian language, and only in Albanian. The names of Balkan villages usually lasted only a few centuries,
for villages were often destroyed altogether during wartime. Cities lasted longer, so their names were usually older. But rivers, lakes and mountains endured through the centuries, and their ancient names usually continued in use. Even new inhabitants usually adopted the old names, just as American colonists adopted many old Indian place names in the United States. Accordingly, Albanian linguists have found more than 300 names of ancient cities like Shkodra, rivers like the Drin and mountains like Tomor which were mentioned by ancient Greek and Roman geographers or historians and which are still in use in Albania. Scholars show how the rules of historical phonetics explain any changes of spelling over the centuries from Illyrian to Albanian, as Scupi to Shkup, Scodra to Shkodra, Lissus to Lezha, Durrachium to Durrės, Drinus to Drin, Mathis to Mat. Certainly the Albanian language is derived from the Illyrian (Cabej 1985, 42-62).

10. Illyrian proper names continue in use among present-day Albanians. Many of the individual Illyrian names of persons were preserved on epitaphs and inscriptions on coins. Then the names of other people like the Illyrian rulers Agron and Teuta were mentioned by Greek or Roman historians. The Albanian scholar Mahri Domi claims to have identified 800 of these (Liria 15 October 1982; 1 November 1983).

11. The numerous marine terms for sea plants and animals in the Albanian language show that these people lived along the coast on what would correspond with Illyrian territory (AT 1983, 1:44-45).

12. Then there are other words in Albanian which Greek or Roman writers long ago explicitly identified as Illyrian in origin.
Down through the centuries many once great peoples have been either destroyed or assimilated by others so as to disappear altogether. But the Illyrian people with their distinctive dress, music, customs and especially their language have persisted in their shrinking territory along the western shore of the Balkan Peninsula. With no record or tradition even hinting at their extermination or assimilation or migration, one can only assume their unbroken historical continuity. There seems to be no question but that the present-day Albanians are the historically uninterrupted descendants of the lllyrians who were known to have inhabited that same region in early Greek and Roman times.

Taken from: [B][I]The Albanians: an ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present[/I][/B], Edwin E. Jacques – 1995, pg.37 – 38.[/QUOTE]

Dejan 07-28-2010 08:32 PM

Can someone please tell me - what significant marks have the illyrians left in history? We know what the ancient Macedonians have done, and we know alot about the Roman empire, but how do the illyrians fit in the picture? Have they left a language/culture? Were they conquerers? I'm not bagging them out or anything, but I find it hard to see how they are as important/influential/relevant as other ancient civilisations who left huge traces of their culture behind. I don't know much about the history of the illyrians, but to me it sounds as though some modern nations are trying hard to find a connection to antiquity when they mention their ties with illyrians. And seeing as though not many people know about the history of the illyrians, these nations can make up whatever suits their agenda about the illyrians.

Onur 07-28-2010 08:59 PM

[QUOTE]The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, of whom the majority have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian'

J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278 [/QUOTE]


While i believe this Albanian-Illyrian connection is nothing more than an Antiquity phenomenon created by nationalistic ideas of post 18th century but i read several articles about Albanian language`s distinctive features than other languages used by surrounding cultures.

I posted an article about languages here b4;

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3389[/url]


Both vocabulary and grammar features of several languages gets calculated by computer software program here and Albanian shows it`s distinction to a certain degree than other Indo-European languages, like the Irish.

But i checked the wikipedia for earliest text in Albanian. It says that the earliest Albanian text is dated at 1462!!! This is really weird. If Albanian is really descended from Illyrian language and if it shows some distinctive features then how come it`s earliest text is that recent date? If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.

Soldier of Macedon 07-28-2010 11:19 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]I brought up a link of Wiki in order to present his biography. Here is an article regarding Illyrian confederacy orchestrated by Bushati:

[url]http://vargmal.org/dan5230[/url]

I guess you can use 'Google translator' for a translation since in its current form the article is in Albanian.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, can you produce a copy of a charter, document, currency, etc or anything else that says "Illyrian Confederacy" from the time and realm of Bushati?
[QUOTE]By the early fourteenth century [U]there are also signs of a long-established Albanian presence[/U] in the mountains of Montenegro, and as far north as the Ragusan hinterland.

KOSOVO A SHORT HISTORY, Noel Malcolm, 1999, pg. 28[/QUOTE]
What signs?
[QUOTE]Skeene emphasized that northern Albanian boundaries reaches as far as Hercegovina.[/QUOTE]
Who else speaks of Albanians all the way up to Hercegovina? In the same link you provided [url]http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts19/AH1848_2.html[/url] - Skene also says the following:
[QUOTE]The tribe of the Ghegs and Mirdites are of lofty stature and athletic frame; and their swarthy complexion and black eyes still retain the characteristics of their supposed [B]Caucasian origin[/B].[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The Toskides are the most handsome of the Albanians. They have noble features, with fair hair and blue eyes, indicating the mixture of [B]Georgian blood[/B], which probably flows in their veins.....[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]The Albanian language being merely oral, the want of written documents renders their history exceedingly obscure, and the silence preserved by the Greek and Byzantine writers on the subject has reduced the data within a very narrow compass. They are called Arvaniti by the Greeks, and Arnaout by the Turks, both names being derived, along with that of Albanians, [B]from the Albanes, an ancient people of the shores of the Caspian Sea[/B], which may have incorporated itself with the Illyrians.[/QUOTE]
Do you agree with Skene in this regard?
[QUOTE="Epirot"]Being linked with Epirots, as I said before, do not reject our Illyrian lineage because Epirots are nothing but southern Illyrian group of tribes.[/QUOTE]
Which ancient authors specifically speak of the Epirotes as an Illyrian tribe?
[QUOTE]Have you ever heard of "Illyrian Bulgaria"?[/QUOTE]
Yes I have, but that doesn't answer the question I posed. The text you provided merely indicates that the Illyrian region was under an empire or archbishopric labelled 'Bulgarian', it does not indicate that the Illyrian name was a synonym for all 'West Balkan Christians'.
[QUOTE]4. Those few language elements which are known as Illyrian can be explained through the Albanian language, [U]and no other[/U].[/QUOTE]
That's a lie mate. Illyrians have the word 'Osseriates' for a lake. In Macedonian a lake is 'Ezero', in Albanian it is 'Liqen'. Which one looks closer to you?
[QUOTE]5. A linguistic comparison of Albanian with ancient Greek and Latin indicates that Albanian was formed as a language at an earlier period than those other ancient languages.[/QUOTE]
Can you cite some examples of this?
[QUOTE]6. Archeological and historical data witness to the cultural continuity from the lllyrians to the Albanians. Continual contact with other peoples and languages has left its traces in the Albanian vocabulary. Foreign words have been borrowed from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish, yet Albanian has been preserved as a separate language, its grammatical system remaining virtually unchanged.[/QUOTE]
What archaeological and historical data of continuity? Can you be more specific? If there is no record of an Illyrian sentence or paragraph, how could you possibly know that the grammatical system has remained virtually unchanged? Unchanged since when?
[QUOTE]9. Illyrian toponyms, ancient Illyrian place names for cities, rivers and mountains, are preserved today in the Albanian language, [U]and only in Albanian[/U].[/QUOTE]
That's another lie, several ancient Illyrian placenames are still preserved by other people in the Balkans. The word 'Bosnia' itself is of Illyrian origin and is still used today.
[QUOTE]10. Illyrian proper names continue in use among present-day Albanians. Many of the individual Illyrian names of persons were preserved on epitaphs and inscriptions on coins. Then the names of other people like the Illyrian rulers Agron and Teuta were mentioned by Greek or Roman historians. The Albanian scholar Mahri Domi claims to have identified 800 of these (Liria 15 October 1982; 1 November 1983).[/QUOTE]
Tell me, how many Agron's and Teuta's were there among Albanians prior to the 19th century?
[QUOTE]11. The numerous marine terms for sea plants and animals in the Albanian language show that these people lived along the coast on what would correspond with Illyrian territory (AT 1983, 1:44-45).[/QUOTE]
Not all, but the majority of marine terms in Albanian derive from a Latin source, be it Italian, Venetian, or in some cases Vulgar Latin. Even the word for 'fisherman' in Albanian (Peshkatar) is taken from Italian - Pescatore.

With regard to John Wilkes, see my below responses:
[QUOTE="Epirot"]The Albanian language which belongs to the Indo-European group, has a distinctive vocabulary, morphology and phonetic rules which have engaged the attention of many philologists, [B][U]of whom the majority[/U][/B] have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian'

J.Wilkes 'Illyrians' page 278[/QUOTE]
Whoever supplied you this quote has manipulated the words of John Wilkes. The original passage says the following:
[QUOTE]........which have engaged the attention of many philologists, [B][U]of whom several[/U][/B] have confidently proclaimed its origin from ancient Illyrian.[/QUOTE]
Why was the word "several" changed with "majority"? I trust that this is not your doing, is it? If you need further corroboration from my end, I am more than happy to scan and post the page up here, which will prove that your quote is distorted. A simple change of words changes the meaning of the text, and with the version that you have supplied it suggests that Albanian has been accepted as Illyrian by almost everyone, which is clearly not the case.
[QUOTE="Epirot"]'It is not doubted whether or not Albs are indigenous, its whether they were directly from Albania or from some northern part. For instance, it is argued, that Albanians have their origins in Southern Serbia ' ([B][U]Wilkes: 224[/U][/B][/QUOTE]
Epirot, I have the book in front of me right now. Nowhere on page 224 does it have the above which you quoted. Can you please clarify the page number or if this is another distortion?
[QUOTE]The quote on modern Albanians being "short and dark skinned" is not his. It was taken from the book 'Skeletal evidence' of Alexander Stipcevic, page 262, published over thirty years ago (in 1977). Stipcevic himself claims that Albanians are the descendants of Illyrians !!!!

After all Wilkes isn't anthropologist or he hasn't make any specific research on the physical stature of Albanians. Instead of citing an inaccurate statement, it's time to ask from authorities on that matter.[/QUOTE]
Hang on second mate, there is no citation of an inaccurate statement, this is exactly what it writes in Wilkes' book, page 219, Chapter 8 - Life and Death among Illyrians. Furthermore, the reference point (1) to Stipcevic is for the sub-title "ways of life", and not for the specific statement. Granted, this may have been taken directly from Stipcevic, but Wilkes has used it to emphasis the weakness of those claiming that there is a direct genetical link between Albanians and Illyrians. John Wilkes is considered an authority on the Illyrians, and his works are objective enough to be considered more plausable than most others where it concerns this topic.

You have obviously misinterpreted what John Wilkes was making reference to, and that much is obvious by your subsequent list of quotations that speak of tall and blonde Albanians. If you have read Wilkes' book adequately, you will realise that he too states that the average Illyrian male was about 1.65 metres, hardly 'tall' by any means. However, just because Albanians tend to be short and dark-skinned (not my words), this does not mean they are related to the Illyrians. That was what he was saying. So, retrospectively, going back to what you have just said about the tall and blonde Albanians, your suggestion works against you.

Soldier of Macedon 07-28-2010 11:42 PM

[QUOTE="Onur"]If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.[/QUOTE]
One would think so, although many languages only began to employ a properly codified alphabet from the medieval period, such as the Macedonians and the other Slavic-speaking people of Europe, resulting from the need for literature and biblical translations. Until then, other alphabets were used, and even other languages for official purposes.

I guess one of my questions would be, if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?

Prolet 07-28-2010 11:58 PM

[QUOTE]if the Albanians were in the Balkans before records began to refer to the locals as 'Slavs', then why isn't there an Albanian literature prior to that point?[/QUOTE]

Good Point SOM

The Albanians are divided into two tribes, Gegite and Toskite. The Gegi were in the mountains are were not educated (Ne Pismeni) so they are using the Tosk alphabet.

Soldier of Macedon 07-29-2010 12:51 AM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]1. Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.). Even in modern times, specifically in Gheg dialect is preserved a such trait short of 'Asht' in 'A'. What's about 'Spetos'. If we drop out the last suffix 'os' the word become on 'Spet' which is an earlier form of Alb. 'Shpejtė' mean 'fast, quick' because again in Gheg dialect we find an another variation from standard form of Albanian 'Shpejtė' in 'Shpetė'. Suma Summarum after this summarized explanation we come to the central point: Aspetos is transparently equivalent with Alb. 'A shpetė',
Aspetos = A shpetė mean 'He is fast/quickly'.[/QUOTE]
I have also seen a connection proposed to the word for 'sword' in Albanian, which I will just highlight that, from the dictionaries I have seen, it is not "shp[B]e[/B]te" in Albanian, but "shp[B]a[/B]te". It is an interesting example, and it does seem possible. However, let's look at some other similarly formed words to compare. The word "shpate" looks very close to the English word 'spade', and if we look at the Albanian word for 'spade', it is a borrowing from either Macedonian, Serbian or another related language (as most Slavic langauges have a similar word for spade or shovel):

Lopata (Macedonian)
Lopate (Albanian for spade)
Shpate (Albanian for sword)

Important also is the fact that items that resemble a 'spade' have been used as weapons. If 'shpate' is an Albanian word, yet looks similar to and shares the same word ending as 'lopate', which is not an Albanian word (by origin), then how did 'shpate' come about?

makedonin 07-29-2010 03:41 AM

In respect to the Osseriates word for lake, In Macedonian is Ezero, while in Russian Ozero (Озеро).

Osseriates> Ozero (Озеро) > Ezero is quitre reasonable phonetic development, taken that the meaning is the same. It means lake! There are many morphologic examples where, the 's' character morphes to 'z'. Also the 'Osseria[B]t[/B]es' fragment is present in Macedonian language, the modern form taken 'Ezero[B]to[/B]' and 'Ezera[B]ta[/B]' wich denotes if plural or singular when relation to the word is builded. Example, 'Ezeroto e mirno' or 'Ezerata se mirni'.

As for the Albanian word 'Asht' meaning 'is', I know that this word is only a variation used by some educated people in Albania. The original word is 'ėshtė', where 'ė' is the dark silable similar as in Macedonian " ' " or the old Church slavonic character 'Ъ' it is a stress sighn, it is a throat voice, a form of depressed short 'E'.

It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

So the whole method of explaining in the

[QUOTE]Aspetos = A + Spet(os); 'A' is the short trait of 'asht' (mean "is" in Alb.).[/QUOTE]

is erroneous and missleading. The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware. The root of the word is 'sht' where the 'sh' sound is development of 's' sound. It is easier to prove that 'ėshtė' can be related to the Serbian 'jeste', or the morphed Misirkov 'iетъ' which means the same, and has the same root with the German 'ist' and ultimately with the Latin 'est' which also means 'is', and can be separated as (j)[U]este[/U]<>est<>ė[U]sht[/U]ė. The 'A' in 'asht' is only coincidence and corruption, as are the 'J' in 'jeste' etc.

Epirot 07-29-2010 06:19 AM

[QUOTE=Dejan;65206]Can someone please tell me - what significant marks have the illyrians left in history? We know what the ancient Macedonians have done, and we know alot about the Roman empire, but how do the illyrians fit in the picture? Have they left a language/culture? Were they conquerers? I'm not bagging them out or anything, but I find it hard to see how they are as important/influential/relevant as other ancient civilisations who left huge traces of their culture behind. I don't know much about the history of the illyrians, but to me it sounds as though some modern nations are trying hard to find a connection to antiquity when they mention their ties with illyrians. And seeing as though not many people know about the history of the illyrians, these nations can make up whatever suits their agenda about the illyrians.[/QUOTE]

It is not fair to minimize the role of Illyrians in the civilization. Of course Illyrian text does not exist as well as in Macedonian, Epirotic, Dacian etc but this cannot serve as a validate proof that both these people were backward culturally and economically. We know for sure that if those people did not exist, the "hellenic" civilization would not be such as we know.

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="Blue"]Now Hecataeus of Miletus says of the Peloponnesus that before the time of the Greeks it was inhabited by barbarians.[/COLOR][/B] [B][COLOR="blue"]Yet one might say that in the ancient times the whole of Greece was a settlement of barbarians[/COLOR][/B], if one reasons from the traditions themselves: Pelops brought over peoples from Phrygia to the Peloponnesus that received its name from him; and Danaüs from Egypt; whereas the Dryopes, the Caucones, the Pelasgi, the Leleges, and other such peoples, apportioned among themselves the parts that are inside the isthmus — and also the parts outside, for Attica was once held by the Thracians who came with Eumolpus, Daulis in Phocis by Tereus, Cadmeia by the Phoenicians who came with Cadmus, and Boeotia itself by the Aones and Temmices and Hyantes. According to Pindar, there was a time when the Boeotian tribe was called "Syes." Moreover, the barbarian origin of some is indicated by their names — Cecrops, Codrus, Aļclus, Cothus, Drymas, and Crinacus. [B]And even to the present day the Thracians, Illyrians, and Epeirotes live on the flanks of the Greeks[/B] ([COLOR="Red"][B]though this was still more the case formerly than now[/B][/COLOR]); indeed most of the country that at the present time is indisputably Greece is held by the barbarians — Macedonia and certain parts of Thessaly by the Thracians, and the parts above Acarnania and Aetolia by the Thesproti, the Cassopaei, the Amphilochi, the Molossi, and the Athamanes — Epeirotic tribes.

[url]http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7G*.html[/url][/QUOTE]

Strabo based into an earlier account of Hecateus makes known that the pre-greek Greece was held by certain 'barbarian' tribes such as: Illyrians, Epirots, Thracians, Leleges, Pelasgians, Phrygians, etc. Later on after the dark age such peoples were diminished and pushed mainly northwards in the flanks of 'Greeks' which mean the line marked by Gulf of Ambracia up to the Peneus river was inhabited by Barbarians. That's the real meaning of: "though [B][COLOR="red"]this was still more the case formerly[/COLOR][/B] than now".

[QUOTE][B][COLOR="red"]The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians;[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="Blue"][B]there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus[/B][/COLOR], where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…We have seen that [B][COLOR="blue"]there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians[/COLOR][/B]|

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]"[B][COLOR="Red"]the Pelasg that is the people before the Hellas Greeks, were Illyrian[/COLOR][/B]. Their language would have been Indo-Germanic, [COLOR="red"][B]a dialect of the Illyrian-Thracian language[/B][/COLOR], and Etruskan was a later dialect of the latter. The Thracians and Illyrians would have been
the link between the central (Italic, Greek, Aryan)
and the southern (Pelasg, Luwiy, Hittite) Indo-Germanic groups".

Vladimir Ivanov Georgiev[/QUOTE]

Even Alexander the Great was conscious of the importance of these 'Barbarians':

[QUOTE]...Thracians, Paeonians, Illyrians, Agrianes [B][COLOR="blue"]they are the best and stoutest soldiers in Europe[/COLOR][/B]" (Arrian, ALEXANDRI ANABASIS, BOOK II, 7,3)[/QUOTE]

Due them Alexander's campaigns were entirely fierce and successful!

Epirot 07-29-2010 07:53 AM

[QUOTE=Onur;65210]
But i checked the wikipedia for earliest text in Albanian. It says that the earliest Albanian text is dated at 1462!!! This is really weird. If Albanian is really descended from Illyrian language and if it shows some distinctive features then how come it`s earliest text is that recent date? If it`s an ancient language, there should have been a written text much earlier than 1462.[/QUOTE]

The oldness of a language is not determined necessary by the written document since many written languages of antiquity are extincted because of many factors. Imagine if written documents of Alexandria's library would exists in nowadays... our knowledge and conceptions about languages would be entirely different.

[QUOTE]In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system. These languages are just as old. [B][COLOR="Red"]To take one interesting case, the Albanian language (spoken north of Greece) was not written down until about the 15th century AD, yet Ptolemy mentions the people in the first century BC.*[/COLOR][/B] [COLOR="red"][COLOR="Blue"][B]The linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests that Albanians were a distinct people for even longer than that.[/B][/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR="Lime"][B][COLOR="SeaGreen"][B]So Albanian has probably existed for several millennia, but has only been written down for 500 years[/B][/COLOR][/B][/COLOR]. [COLOR="Magenta"][B]With a twist of fate, Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new"[/B][/COLOR].

Elizabeth Pyatt , Pennsylvania State University.

[url]http://linguistlist.org/ask-ling/oldest.cfm[/url][/QUOTE]

Epirot 07-29-2010 10:20 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;65222]Epirot, can you produce a copy of a charter, document, currency, etc or anything else that says "Illyrian Confederacy" from the time and realm of Bushati?

[/QUOTE]

All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.

[QUOTE]

1786

"An assemly of Albanian, Montenegrin and Bosnian chiefs is held in Podgorica. They decide to unite against Turks i[B][COLOR="Red"]n a league called "Illyrian Confederacy" with Karamahmud Bushati Pasha as a president[/COLOR][/B]."

[url]http://www.dardania.de/vb/upload/showthread.php?t=17585[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [B]SoM[/B]

What signs?[/QUOTE]

Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.

Many maps shows a compact Albanian presence through the hinterland of Montenegro to the outskirts of Dubrovnik.

[IMG]http://img6.imageshack.us/img6/1219/hercegovinaalbaniagreen.png[/IMG]

The epic songs of southern Bosnia, Montenegro and Sandjak of Novi Pazar bears a strong influence of Albanian epic songs.

[QUOTE]
-The Albanian song has in Lika the place name of Kotorret e reja, while Boshnjak or Croatian one do not, meaning that the Albanian singer was himself in Lika.
-The Croatian poet Andrea Kaciq Mioshiq sings for indeqinous Albanian units Croats in Bosnia; most probably these units also had had their own singers.
-Serbo-Croatian studies accept that Boshnjak songs originated in the 17th century in Lika, and from there came to Bosnia, and corresponds withg the existence of Ceta of Muji and Halili there*, meaning that the Boshnjak song was created under the influence of Albanian epic song.
-The most enthusiastic s/c authors could only rationalize the spread of Boshnjak to Albania by attributing it to “boza’ and “hallva’ makers or soldiers; it is doubtful if the letter were in Bosnia, but even if they had been they had to have been from Albanian cities where no Kreshnik epic existed. With no other facts, the claim has to be considered naļve.
-The fact the Albanian cycle is cultivated in villages, and not in any village, but in Malsia, means that it had always a specific purpose, as is revealed to be the resistance against foreign occupiers.
-T[COLOR="Blue"][B]he fact that the Boshnjak epic is pro-Sultan and is devoted to Islam, where as the Albanian epic songs of Malsi are predominantly against Sultan points to a basic difference between the two epic song traditions. [/B][/COLOR]
-[COLOR="red"][B]The fact that the Albanian epic song is motivated against kraals of Midieval Serbia some hundred years earlier than the Boshnjak epic, in reality points to the Albanian song being some hundred years older than the Boshnjak epic. [/B][/COLOR]
-The fact that Albanian language words are traced in Boshnjak and Croat epic songs, means that the seed of the latter come from Albanian singers, who still sing songs(at least up to the 1950’s) from the Boshnjak cycle in the Valley of Novi Pazar.
-[B][COLOR="Red"]The fact the Boshnjak epic song has an Albanian protagonist named Arnaut Osmani who is a nephew of Mui affirms that Bosnian Mui is also Albanian. [/COLOR][/B]
-The fact that the Serbo-Croatians have in their epic many songs, legends, ballads and motives which are common with the Arbresh of Italy, a proof that these elements are cultivated in the Albanian popular poetry before 15th century, at a time during which popular poetry was not known by the S/C. [/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The Montenegrins, who are the tallest people in Europe… [COLOR="blue"][B]are linguistically Serbs[/B][/COLOR], [COLOR="Red"][B]but there can be no question that they are to a large extent Slavicized Albanians; the cultural continuity between the two peoples is striking[/B][/COLOR], the only real differences being those of language and religion

`Races of Europe’ Carlton S. Coon Chapter 14:The Greeks 1939[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Medieval chronicles speak of a Albanian nation stretching from highlands of Herzegovina and up to Aetolia in south. A large number of foreign geographers have specified that the border of Albania touched present day Herzegovina. Thus, the prominent Danish geographer Condrad Malte Brun (1755-1826) writes that: “No geographer has determined the extent of [COLOR="red"][B]Arnaoutlik, a country that borders on Rascia, Macedonia and Bosnia”[/B][/COLOR].[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE] Edmund Spencer says:

‘[COLOR="red"][B]In personal appearance the mountaineers of Tchernegora rather resemble their neighbors in Albania[/B][/COLOR], than their brethren in Servia; there is the same nervous, lofty form, animated expression, and a certain degree of saucy audacity in their manners and bearing; they have also imbibed from their neighbors many of their customs and manners, particularly the belief in retributive justice, and that blood can only be expiated by blood, consequently sanguinary conflicts frequently break out between different tribes‘.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [B]SoM[/B]

Do you agree with Skene in this regard? [/QUOTE]

No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by [B]SoM[/B]

Which ancient authors specifically speak of the Epirotes as an Illyrian tribe?[/QUOTE]

Not directly but implicitly many ancients emphasize the kinship between Illyrians and Epirots. There is no clear frontier between Epirus and Illyria or all "distinctions" of Illyria from Epirus is geographical rather then ethnical. Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.

[QUOTE]The Illyrians and Thracians proper all tattooed, as did the ancient Mycenians; [COLOR="red"][B]there is evidence to show that there was a large Illyrian element in Epirus,[/B][/COLOR] where, as we saw above (p.94), there were many tribes which called themselves Pelasgian…[B][COLOR="Red"]We have seen that there was no sharp line between the speech of Illyrians and Thesprotians or Thessalians|[/COLOR][/B]

[url]http://books.google.com/books?id=kXA...eneans&f=false[/url]

[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]The penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history.[B][COLOR="red"] First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.[/COLOR][/B]
[B]Epirus[/B] which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, [B][COLOR="red"]became once more Illyrian[/COLOR][/B]. [COLOR="Blue"][B]Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism.[/B][/COLOR] A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)[/QUOTE]

Epirot 07-29-2010 10:27 AM

[QUOTE=makedonin;65263]
It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa ėshtė ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'

The 'A' represented as short trait of 'asht' is not 'waterproof' also for other reason. There is no valuable example in Albanian where 'Asht' morphes in only 'A', as far as I am aware. [/QUOTE]

In the Tosc dialect the respective word for "is" is 'ėshtė' but in Gheg dialect (that bears more archaic traits) is '[B][I]asht[/I][/B]'. As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.

makedonin 07-29-2010 11:07 AM

[QUOTE=Epirot;65310] As I expanded previously in some remote northern regions (Shkoder, Pukė, Mirditė) even in Kosova (Drenicė region) 'asht' is contracted in 'a'. They do not say for instance 'Sa asht ora' (What time is it?) but 'Sa a ora'.[/QUOTE]

Words regression is known to be modern version of archaic words. So, even if I take your word that it is 'Sa a ora' in some remote regions, that would still be a new corruption and regression of 'ashtė' which again is corruption or dialectial feature of 'ėshtė'.

It is rather simple to follow it.

The root of the word is 'st' as in Latin 'est', German 'ist', Serbian 'Jeste', Romanian 'este', French 'est' even the corrupted Spanish 'es' or the corrupted English 'is', all meaning the same, 'is'. Even the Macedonian 'e' is corrupted version of the same root 'st' and comes from the [URL="http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-BF.html"]old church slavonic version[/URL] of it, as 'jes-' for the verb 'be'.

Since Latin can be dated through sources the other words can be compared and their corruption and development can be followed. That is why they are called IE languages. They share same roots. So you compare relative new regression of the word and take it as if being ancient, wich is achronological and bears no logic.

There are two possibilities for the puzzling 'A' in your word, either it is the Greek negation as in the words 'asynchronus' , 'achronological ' etc.

Or

Alpha may be long or short and is pronounced O as in "not." as proposed here:

[url]http://www.cs.utk.edu/~Mclennan/BA/pronunciation.html[/url]

According to that pronounciation preposition, your word 'Aspetos' will be pronounced something like 'Ospetos'.

Soldier of Macedon 07-29-2010 10:42 PM

[QUOTE="Epirot"]All what I posses for the moment aren't available online in net libraries and archives. Documents and references about 'Illyrian Confederacy' established by Bushati is in Albanian...so it need some time to get a proper translation that actually I am not able to do.[/QUOTE]
Epirot, in the absence of such evidence or a credible citation that makes reference to such evidence, how are we to confirm the validity of your statement?
[QUOTE]Both ethnically and culturally... I guess that it is enough to remind just some glimpses.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, the statement on its own is not enough without corroboration.
[QUOTE]No I don't agree! The supposed Caucasian origin of Albanians it is just an obsolete and out-dated hypothesis that took places among some Romantic writers that thought coincidence of names as a validate proof of origin of Albanians. History afford no record of any arrival of Albanians in Balkans.[/QUOTE]
But Skene is the source you initially used to indicate Albanian living space in Hercegovina, is it not? In fact, he bases the 'look' of the Albanians on people from the Caucasus. I don't necessarily subscribe to that theory for your people, but this is coming from your own source, for which you should have had counter-arguments already prepared.
[QUOTE]Many Illyrian tribes were in some cases are recognized as Epirotic.[/QUOTE]
Which tribes?
[QUOTE]The [B]penetration of the Illyrians into northern Greece in the twelfth century BC led to the decay of the flourishing Mycenaean culture and to a complete upheaval in Greek political history[/B]. First, Epirus and Aetolia were engulfed by the wave of the Illyrian invasion.
Epirus which had been in greater part Hellenized and whose religious center was the sanctuary of Zeus in Dodona, became once more Illyrian. Aetolia, a flourishing land in Homeric times, lapsed into almost complete barbarism. A great many of the Aetolians crossed the Corinthian Gulf, subjected the native Greek population, and settled in the land which became known as Elis.

(~Early Christian and Byzantine political philosophy ~ Francis Dvornķk - 1966)[/QUOTE]
This quote seems to be suggesting that the Dorians were in fact Illyrians. Do you agree with that suggestion?

Epirot, what is your opinion on why Macedonians use a cognate for the Illyrian word 'osseriates'? It cannot possibly be a loanword because the Russians and Czechs also use the same word. So how is this possible, unless Illyrian is a tongue related to those later known as 'Slavic'?


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