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Carlin 04-19-2017 11:23 PM

Sir Arthur Evans
[I]Antiquarian researches in Illyricum[/I]

Pg. 107:

"Amongst the Albanian tribes the evidence of the [B]absorption of Romanized elements[/B] is still more striking, nor is this anywhere more evident than amongst those members of the Albanian race who inhabit the [B]Dardanian ranges[/B]."

Carlin 04-22-2017 06:44 AM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/VeikouTitle_zpsyo046zmv.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/VeikouTitle_zpsyo046zmv.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/VeikouA_zpspbag3bga.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/VeikouA_zpspbag3bga.png[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 04-24-2017 10:42 PM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Noel%20Malcolm%20-%20Kosovo2C%20A%20Short%20History%20Page%2025_zps8r03r0hq.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Noel%20Malcolm%20-%20Kosovo2C%20A%20Short%20History%20Page%2025_zps8r03r0hq.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/The%20Romanians%20and%20the%20Turkic%20Nomads%20Extracts_zpsfephu1f1.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/The%20Romanians%20and%20the%20Turkic%20Nomads%20Extracts_zpsfephu1f1.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Theory%20and%20Practice%20in%20Late%20Antique%20Archaeology2C%20Pages%2061%20-%2062_zps8konuufl.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Theory%20and%20Practice%20in%20Late%20Antique%20Archaeology2C%20Pages%2061%20-%2062_zps8konuufl.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 04-25-2017 08:29 PM

Eqrem Cabej page 51 -
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Eqrem%20Cabej%20Page%2051_zps7toskmzb.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Eqrem%20Cabej%20Page%2051_zps7toskmzb.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

In the text of the picture, Eqrem Cabej refers to the positions of Gustav Weigand, who was the first to question, with serious arguments, the case of the origins of Skipetars from the ancient Illyrians. G. Weigand's arguments were mainly two, mainly linguistic.

G. Weigand's first argument concerns the "form" of the toponyms of Albania which do not have Albanian "form" but Latin-Dalmatian. The second argument concerns the fact that if the Albanians always lived in the area of present-day Albania, the ancient place names of the region would have evolved on the basis of the vocabulary of their own language, which is not the case. It is immediately evident, according to G. Weigand, that these place names have a clear Slavic "character" or an Italian-Venetian or Dalmatian character in the coastal areas.

What do these mean? Quite simply, the place names of Albania do not come from the Skipetarian language, but mainly from the Dalmatian language (a Romance language akin to [I]Vlachika[/I] - but not the same).

Carlin 04-28-2017 09:13 PM

Who are the [I]Illyrians[/I] of Manuel II Palaeologus?

The Letters of Manuel II Palaeologus - Corpus Fontium Historiae Byzantinae (1977) Pages 210-211
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/The%20Letters%20of%20Manuel%20II%20Palaeologus%20-%20Corpus%20Fontium%20Historiae%20Byzantinae%2019772c%20Pages%20210%20-%20211_zpsycvwndyo.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/The%20Letters%20of%20Manuel%20II%20Palaeologus%20-%20Corpus%20Fontium%20Historiae%20Byzantinae%2019772c%20Pages%20210%20-%20211_zpsycvwndyo.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 04-30-2017 07:40 AM

[B]Directorium ad passagium faciendum[/B]

[B]Around 1330[/B], a Dominican monk (Catholic Christian) wrote a message to the King of France to motivate him to campaign against the Orthodox Christians to subdue them to the Pope. This text is known as "Directorium ad passagium faciendum" and contains, among other things, some useful information on [B][U]the area of ​​northern Albania & Montenegro[/U] that was then part of the medieval Serbian kingdom[/B]. Let's see what he writes about this area.

The following text is from "Directorium ad passagium faciendum" as published in the American publication "The American historical review", Vol. 13 (1908), pages 96 and 97. The original text is of course in Latin:

“Hoc inter cetera facit ad dictum regnum facilius capiendum quod sunt ibi [B]duae nationes[/B], una videlicet [B]Albanensium et Latinorum[/B], qui omnes sub fide et obedientia Romanae Ecclesiae perseuerant, et secundum hoc habent Archiepiscopos, Episcopos, et Abbates, ac inferiores status et gradus religiosos et clericos seculares. [B]Latini habent sex ciuitates[/B] cum suis Episcopis, primam Antibarum archiepiscopalem, deinde Catharensem, Dulcedinensem, Suaciensem, Scutarensem, et Driuacensem; quas quidem solum Latini inhabitant. Populus vero earum siue Albanenses in tota ipsarum diocesi extra muros. Sunt etiam Albanensium quatuor ciuitates, videlicet Polati, Minoris, Salutensis, et Albanensis. Quae omnes cum praedictis ciuitatibus Latinorum Antibarensi Archiepiscopo et Ecclesiae jure metropolitico sunt subjectae. [B]Et licet Albanenses aliam omnino linguam a Latina habeant et diuersam, tamen literam Latinam habent in usu et in omnibus suis libris[/B].”

The gist of it is as follows:
- The region in question (northern Albania & Montenegro) is inhabited by TWO NATIONS, namely ALBANIANS and LATINS - and both nations are Roman Catholic.
- The LATINS reside in six cities (such as Bar, Kotor, Ulcinj, etc.) in which ONLY LATINS live. Outside the city walls, ALBANIANS are the majority of residents throughout the region. ALBANIANS have four cities.
- ALBANIANS speak a language that is quite different from the one LATINS speak, but they use Latin in all their books.

I will provide my thoughts & ramblings on this later on.

Carlin 04-30-2017 09:07 PM

Let's take into account (another) "peculiarity" of the [B]Gheg[/B] dialect of the Albanian/Skipetarian language. The following comes from the book "The Languages and Linguistics of Europe", page 199.

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/The%20Languages%20and%20Linguistics%20of%20Europe%20Page%20199_zpsiro2pch0.jpg.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/The%20Languages%20and%20Linguistics%20of%20Europe%20Page%20199_zpsiro2pch0.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

In the underlined text the (Albanian) writer refers to a known "anomaly" of the [B]Gheg[/B] dialect.

This known anomaly "points" to directions [U]outside[/U] of the Balkans, given that Gheg is the "native" dialect of the Skipetarian language, and its most ancient dialect. And that's what we need to investigate in more detail.

Risto the Great 04-30-2017 09:54 PM

Are you referring to the true infinitive?
In which case, it seems that existed in ancient Greek (but not in modern).

Carlin 05-01-2017 05:57 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;168201]Are you referring to the true infinitive?
In which case, it seems that existed in ancient Greek (but not in modern).[/QUOTE]

As per the author,

Rhotacism [U]and[/U] the true inf. in the Gheg dialect.

Carlin 05-03-2017 06:23 AM

The following text is from Edith Durham's book "High Albania and its Customs in 1908", page 454:

[I]“These tribes are divided into several marked groups. The first group Ι visited was [B]Maltsia e madhe, the Great Mountainous Land[/B]. This consists of five large tribes and three small ones. Four of the five large ones each tells that [B]its ancestor came from the north with his family, THIRTEEN OR FOURTEEN GENERATIONS AGO[/B], flying from the advancing Turks. In some cases they found uninhabited land and settled on it. In others, they fought with the men already on the land, and finally settled among them. These former inhabitants they call Anas, which is interpreted in the latest Albanian Dictionary as "aborigines"...

They intermarried with the Anas. A few houses in the Hoti tribe still trace direct descent from the Anas, in the male line. All four of these tribes (Skreli, Hoti, Gruda, Kilmeni) tell that [B][U]their ancestors CAME FROM BOSNIA OR THE HERZEGOVINA, precise district unknown[/U][/B].”[/I]

In the same book, we also find:

[I]“[B]The second tribal group I visited was the Pulati group, called also Maltsia e vogel[/B][B], the small mountainous land.[/B] [B]Here also a tale of immigration is told by the more important tribes, but of immigration, not from the north, but [U]from the east, the district known in earlier days as Rashia[/U].[/B] These people tell that they arrived before the Maltsia e madhe people did. As the Turks penetrated Rashia considerably before they subdued Bosnia, this tale also is probably true. They too tell that they found previous inhabitants who were a small dark people. In the tribe of Shala there are still eight houses that trace descent from these early inhabitants. The other families migrated in a body "a long time ago" to the neighbourhood of Dechani (probably at the end of the seventeenth century, when the Serbs left it in numbers and fled to Hungary)…”[/I]

I note these myths and legendary tales merely to dismiss them. I don't need to go into details who Edith Durham was. The simple point here is that it appears that she recorded and wrote down what the residents themselves told her, and [U]this was roughly 100 years ago[/U]. Well and good.

The question whether the above mentioned (ancient) Gheg tribes are indeed from Bosnia, Herzegovina or Rashia is irrelevant, [I]"possible"[/I] but irrelevant. The interesting question here is how many people out there (perhaps even historians) are aware or know of Gheg [I]claims[/I] that they are from Bosnia or Herzegovina?


Changing gears and returning to the [I]"Latins"[/I] of Albania (on which I have much more to share), the following text comes from the 5th chapter of "Alexiada" (Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, Anna Comnena, Volumen I, Bonnae, MDCCCXXXIX (1839), p. 223):

[I]“[U]Οι δ' εντός [B]Δυρραχίου[/B][/U], καθάπερ ο λόγος εδήλωσεν, [U]επεί οι πλείους από [B]Μέλφης και Βενετίας ήσαν άποικοι[/U][/B], τα ξυμπεσόντα τω αυτοκράτορι μεμαθηκότες και την τοσαύτην ανδροκτασίαν καί την των τηλικούτων ανδρών σφαγήν και τους στόλους υποκεχωρηκότας και ότι ο Ρομπέρτος εις το επιόν έαρ την πολιορκίαν ταμιεύεται, διεσκοπείτο έκαστος ότι πράττειν χρή και σώζεσθαι και μη αύθις ες τοσούτους εμπεπτωκέναι κινδύνους”.[/I]

As can be seen from the above text, the majority of residents of Dyrrachium/Durrës in the late 11th century were [B]settlers from the Italian cities of Venice and Amalfi[/B]. The presence of [I]Latin[/I]-speakers in the city should not be particularly impressive since both Venice and Amalfi were important commercial cities and naval forces in medieval times.

In the course of time, the two "Italian" powers will expand in the region, always Dyrrachium as the base of operations, and also attract the local [I]"Latins"[/I] of the neighboring towns and districts.

Thanks for reading.

tchaiku 05-03-2017 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin;168396]The following text is from Edith Durham's book "High Albania and its Customs in 1908", page 454:

[I]“These tribes are divided into several marked groups. The first group Ι visited was [B]Maltsia e madhe, the Great Mountainous Land[/B]. This consists of five large tribes and three small ones. Four of the five large ones each tells that [B]its ancestor came from the north with his family, THIRTEEN OR FOURTEEN GENERATIONS AGO[/B], flying from the advancing Turks. In some cases they found uninhabited land and settled on it. In others, they fought with the men already on the land, and finally settled among them. These former inhabitants they call Anas, which is interpreted in the latest Albanian Dictionary as "aborigines"...

They intermarried with the Anas. A few houses in the Hoti tribe still trace direct descent from the Anas, in the male line. All four of these tribes (Skreli, Hoti, Gruda, Kilmeni) tell that [B][U]their ancestors CAME FROM BOSNIA OR THE HERZEGOVINA, precise district unknown[/U][/B].”[/I]

In the same book, we also find:

[I]“[B]The second tribal group I visited was the Pulati group, called also Maltsia e vogel[/B][B], the small mountainous land.[/B] [B]Here also a tale of immigration is told by the more important tribes, but of immigration, not from the north, but [U]from the east, the district known in earlier days as Rashia[/U].[/B] These people tell that they arrived before the Maltsia e madhe people did. As the Turks penetrated Rashia considerably before they subdued Bosnia, this tale also is probably true. They too tell that they found previous inhabitants who were a small dark people. In the tribe of Shala there are still eight houses that trace descent from these early inhabitants. The other families migrated in a body "a long time ago" to the neighbourhood of Dechani (probably at the end of the seventeenth century, when the Serbs left it in numbers and fled to Hungary)…”[/I]

I note these myths and legendary tales merely to dismiss them. I don't need to go into details who Edith Durham was. The simple point here is that it appears that she recorded and wrote down what the residents themselves told her, and [U]this was roughly 100 years ago[/U]. Well and good.

The question whether the above mentioned (ancient) Gheg tribes are indeed from Bosnia, Herzegovina or Rashia is irrelevant, [I]"possible"[/I] but irrelevant. The interesting question here is how many people out there (perhaps even historians) are aware or know of Gheg [I]claims[/I] that they are from Bosnia or Herzegovina?


Changing gears and returning to the [I]"Latins"[/I] of Albania (on which I have much more to share), the following text comes from the 5th chapter of "Alexiada" (Corpus Scriptorum Historiae Byzantinae, Anna Comnena, Volumen I, Bonnae, MDCCCXXXIX (1839), p. 223):

[I]“[U]Οι δ' εντός [B]Δυρραχίου[/B][/U], καθάπερ ο λόγος εδήλωσεν, [U]επεί οι πλείους από [B]Μέλφης και Βενετίας ήσαν άποικοι[/U][/B], τα ξυμπεσόντα τω αυτοκράτορι μεμαθηκότες και την τοσαύτην ανδροκτασίαν καί την των τηλικούτων ανδρών σφαγήν και τους στόλους υποκεχωρηκότας και ότι ο Ρομπέρτος εις το επιόν έαρ την πολιορκίαν ταμιεύεται, διεσκοπείτο έκαστος ότι πράττειν χρή και σώζεσθαι και μη αύθις ες τοσούτους εμπεπτωκέναι κινδύνους”.[/I]

As can be seen from the above text, the majority of residents of Dyrrachium/Durrës in the late 11th century were [B]settlers from the Italian cities of Venice and Amalfi[/B]. The presence of [I]Latin[/I]-speakers in the city should not be particularly impressive since both Venice and Amalfi were important commercial cities and naval forces in medieval times.

In the course of time, the two "Italian" powers will expand in the region, always Dyrrachium as the base of operations, and also attract the local [I]"Latins"[/I] of the neighboring towns and districts.

Thanks for reading.[/QUOTE]

Very interesting Carlin.

Carlin 05-05-2017 10:39 PM

Let's return to northern Albania and the arrival of the Ghegs in those parts. When Gheg Laz arrived in the area, [U]coming from Bosnia[/U], leading there the "tribe" of Hoti, he found a different "race" of people there. Let's see how these people are described in the Gheg verbal traditions. The following text comes from the same book as mentioned previously, Mary Edith Durham's "High Albania", 1909, pages 69-70.

[COLOR="Blue"][I]“...When [B]Gheg Laz[/B] and his sons came here, there were already people here”.

Some one suggested they were [B]Shkyar (Slavs)[/B], but the old man was positive they were not. “They were a very old people. No one knew whence they came. Some said they were like Tartars. My grandfather said they were very strong and active, and could leap over six horses at once, and that they ate acorns and horse-flesh. Twelve houses in Hoti are descended from them, and with these we can marry. They are other blood. They are called [B]Anas[/B]." (Anas, in the Albanian dictionary of the Bashkimi society, means “indigenous”). Nor could the old man see that, after thirteen generations of intermarriage, the stocks of [B]Gheg Laz[/B] and the Anas must be very considerably related. There was none of the same blood, he declared. Female blood does not count”.[/I][/COLOR]

As we can see, in the Gheg [I]traditions[/I], as in the above text, Anas are described as semi-wild people who ate acorns and horse-flesh and could do supernatural things, such as jumping over six horses in a row.

Let's try to look at the "ethnic" composition of the population that inhabited northern Albania just before the arrival of Hoti Ghegs in those parts. We will use here a text written by Konstantin Jirecek. It comes from "Skutari und sein Gebiet im Mittelalter" as published in the "Illyrisch-Albanische Forschungen", Tom. 1, by Dr. Ludwig von Thalloczy, version 1916, pages 112-113. It refers to the "ethnic" state of the town of Drivasto (Drisht) of northern Albania in the 14th-15th century.

[I][COLOR="Blue"]“Klar wird Stadt und Burg von einander geschieden (castrum et civitas). Die Kathedrale war eine Kirche des heiligen Georg. Erwähnt wird noch eine Marienkirche. Sitz des Domkapitels (capitulum ecclesiae S. Mariae de Drivasto 1352) und eine Kirche des heiligen Franziskus. Beim Bischof gab es eine Menge von Klerikern, Domherren, einen Erzpriester und viele Priester, aber wegen der geringen Einkünfte dienten viele in Ragusa, in der Stadt und Umgebung; ein Geistlicher Andreas aus Drivasto war B. 1317 Notar der Insel Lagosta. Nicht näher bekannt sind die Einrichtungen der Gemeinde (communitas), deren lateinische Akten ein Notar, wieder ein Geistlicher, abfaßte. In der Umgebung gab es genug Wein und Ol, aber die Not war im Wachsen infolge der ununterbrochenen Kriege. Die Bürger betrachteten sich noch im XV Jahrhundert, wie Barletius schreibt,[B] mit Stolz, als Nachkommen der Römer ([U]Romanorum colonos se appellantes[/U])[/B]. In der Tat findet man unter den Familiennamen des XIV. und XV. Jahrhunderts viele rein romanische: Palombo oder Colomba, de Leporibus, Barbabiancha, Summa, Bello; daneben gibt es allerdings auch albanische, wie Bariloth, Precalo, Scapuder (1368 f., die erste Spur des Volksnamens der Skipetaren), serbische, wie Berivoj oder griechische, wie Calageorgii und Spano (σπανός der Bartlose). Die vornehmste Adelsfamilie waren die Span oder Spano, serbisch Spanouici”.[/COLOR][/I]

The sentence and part that interests us translates as follows: [I][COLOR="Blue"][B]In the XV century, as Barletius writes, the citizens regarded themselves proudly, as descendants of the Romans (Romanorum colonos se appellantes).[/B] [/COLOR][/I]

As we can observe, even in the 15th century, the "national" myth of the inhabitants of the town in question was the legend of the "Roman colonists," of foreigners or immigrants in those parts. According to Gheg [I]traditions[/I], however, these "Roman colonists" were ultimately [U]older[/U] than the Ghegs who arrived at those places after the "Roman settlers".

To summarize, we have understood that in the Middle Ages there were two separate peoples in this area (perhaps there were also some remnants of Shkyar-Slavs). On the one hand there was still a significant [I]Latin[/I]-speaking population, the "Roman settlers" who lived along the coast and a second population, the "Albanians"/"Ghegs" living in the hinterland.

To be continued...

Carlin 05-06-2017 05:40 PM

The following text comes from the monograph of Konstantin Jirecek "Staat und Gesellschaft im mittelalterlichen Serbien: Studien zur Kulturgeschichte des 13.-15. Jahrhunderts", published in Volume 56 of the Denkschriften der Kaiserlichen Akademie der Wissenschaften in Wien, Philosophisch- Historische Klasse" on page 35.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Allerdings waren die Albaner des Kaisers Kantakuzenos in Pindus, die Stamme der Malakasier, Mesariten und [B]Bujer[/B] [U]keine Albanesen[/U], sondern Rumanen, heute noch bekannt als Malakasi und Boji”.[/COLOR]

And translated...

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"However, the Albanians of the emperor Kantakuzenos in Pindus, the tribe of Malakasians, Mesarites and [B]Buji[/B] [U]were not Albanian[/U], but Vlachs, still known as Malakasi and Boji."[/COLOR]

The reason Konstantin Jirecek refers to the Boji as "Vlachs" is the Latinophony of its first (original) generation.

Leaving aside the "Latins" for now - if you had the patience to read the previous posts for the Ghegs, you would have realized that, according to their own traditions (which I simply note and am agnostic about it), the Ghegs, at least a large part of them, were not indigenous to the regions that live today, but they came in those parts from Bosnia.


Apart from the Ghegs' migration, we will further see their claim of the common origin with some "tribes" of Montenegro. Let's see what and who these "relatives" are.

As previously noted, the following text is from Mary Edith Durham's book "High Albania and its Customs in 1908", p. 454.

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Ηoti. - A large tribe situated south of Gruda and extending to the shore of Scutari Lake. On the east it is divided from Kastrati by the Licheni Hotit, an arm of the lake. It consists of one bariak of about 500 houses. All are Catholic but three, those of the Bariaktar's family. This turned Moslem seven generations ago. [B]All Hoti[/B], except twelve houses, [B]traces descent from Bosnia[/B]. These twelve are called Anas, and are of [B]unknown origin[/B]. They were there when Hoti came.

Shortly after the building of the church of Gruda, thirteen generations ago, [B]Geg Laz, the ancestor of Hoti[/B], arrived with his family. [B]Geg was one of four brothers. The others were Piper, Vaso, and Krasni[/B]. From these descend the [B]Piperi and the Vasojevichi of Montenegro[/B], who are Serbophone and belong to the Orthodox Church. Krasni is ancestor of the Krasnichi, now Moslem and Albanophone...”[/COLOR]


The "blood ties" of the Ghegs with the "tribes" of Montenegro: The "blood affinity", or the common origin of the Albanian "tribes" Hoti and Krasnichi with the Slavophone Piperi and Vasoyevichi, was known in the Slavonic "tribes". Let's see this.

The following passages are derived from the text "Notice abrégée de les tribus de la Haute Albanie et d'unamment sur les Montagnes indépendantes" (Brief description of the "tribes" of High Albania and in particular of the Independent Mountains), as published in the Bulletin de la Société Géographique de Paris", Deuxéme Série, Volume 14, Paris, 1841, pages 166-173.

The text is written by one Montenegrin of the "tribe" of Vasoyevich and refers, among other things, to the common origin of the Albanian Ghegs from the "tribes" Hoti and Krasnichi with the Slavophone Montenegrins from the "tribes" of Vasoyevich and Piperi.

The author of the above text considers himself a Slav and not Albanian Skipetar. [B]He also considers the "tribes" of Hoti and Krasnichi of Slavic origin[/B]. According to this writer, the common ancestors of these "tribes" are the Ostrogoth-Slavs, a population different from the other Slavs whom he calls Serbian Slavs.


A) Explanations for Ostrogoth-Slavs - Page 168:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Plusieurs historiens et même des Serbiens, ont confondu les peuples Slaves-Ostrogots avec les Slaves-Serbiens, tes Slaves-Serbiens sont arrivés en 661 de la Mismie et de la Sorabie et ont occupé sous l'empereur Héraclius, la Mésie supérieure, c'est-à dire la Serbie d'aujourd'hui, pays entre les fleuves du Danube, Séva, Drina, Timor et Morava.

Les Serbiens, sous le rapport des moeurs, des usages, du costume et de la langue, different en tout des Slaves-Ostrogots”.


"Several historians and even Serbians have confounded the Slav-Ostrogoth peoples with the Slav-Serbians, the Slavs-Serbians arrived in 661 from Mismia and Sorabia and occupied under the Emperor Heraclius, Upper Moesia, that is to say today's Serbia, country between the rivers of the Danube, Seva, Drina, Timor and Morava.

The Serbians, in respect of manners, customs, costume, and language, differ in all from the Slav-Ostrogoths."[/COLOR]


B) The last Ostrogoth King and his four sons - Page 170:

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]“Les tribus des montagnes indépendantes sont originaires de ce pays, c'est l'ancienne Holmia et Podgorie. Leur origine remonte à 495; mais la division en tribus a commencé en 1160, lorsque le dernier roi slave des Ostrogots en Dalmatie, Radoslav 45e, persécuté par un de ses généraux nommé Dessa qu'il avait comblé de ses faveurs en le faisant prince de Rascia, fut obligé avec ses quatre fils Wasso, Crasso, Hoto et Pipo et tous ses germains de se retrancher dans ses montagnes qui sont devenues depuis le séjour de quatre grandes tribus: Wassoevitchy, Crasnichy (Ducagins), Hotty et Pipery, qui jusqu'aujourd'hui ont conservé leur liberté et leur indépendance. Dans un cas de danger général, c'est-à-dire dans une guerre contre les Turcs, elles sont en fédération avec les Monténégrins”.[/COLOR]

Translated...

[COLOR="RoyalBlue"]"The tribes of the independent mountains are native to this country, it is the ancient Holmia and Podgorie. Their origin dates back to 495; But the division into tribes began in 1160, when the last Slavonic king of the Ostrogoths in Dalmatia, Radoslav 45th, persecuted by one of his generals named Dessa whom he had filled with his favors by making him Prince of Rascia, was obliged with his Four sons Wasso, Crasso, Hoto, and Pipo, and all his siblings to submerge themselves in the mountains which have since become the residence of four great tribes: Wassoevitchy, Crasnichy (Ducagins), Hotty and Pipery. Freedom and independence. In a case of general danger, that is to say, in a war against the Turks, they are in federation with the Montenegrins."[/COLOR]

Carlin 05-10-2017 05:23 AM

[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/MadgTitle_zpsavejcfi8.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/MadgTitle_zpsavejcfi8.png[/IMG][/URL]
[URL=http://s1074.photobucket.com/user/Carlin177/media/Madg147_zpsdkks47wt.png.html][IMG]http://i1074.photobucket.com/albums/w416/Carlin177/Madg147_zpsdkks47wt.png[/IMG][/URL]

Carlin 05-25-2017 10:07 PM

The following statement comes from a Serbian archaeologist, Djordje Jankovic.

The full article can be found here (which is in Serbian):
[url]http://www.rastko.rs/kosovo/delo/11620[/url]

The citation of interest is:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]Писани извори и језик указују на разнородно порекло албанских племена, међу којима исходиште најзначајнијих Арбана (Шиптара) и Мирдита – [B]Мардаита[/B] треба тражити у предњој Азији, [U]од Кавказа до Сирије[/U]. За сада постоји само један археолошки налаз на подручју Албаније, који одудара од општих словенских особина југоисточне Европе и упућује на азијско порекло.[/COLOR][/I]

The translation is:

[I][COLOR="Blue"]Written sources and language indicate a diverse origin of Albanian tribes, the most important ones being Arbana (Skipetars) and Mirdita - [B]Mardaites[/B] whose origin should be sought after in Asia Minor, [U]from the Caucasus to Syria[/U]. For now there is only one archaeological find in Albania, which stands out from general Slavic characteristics of southeast Europe and points to the Asian origin.[/COLOR][/I]

Carlin 06-11-2017 04:10 PM

Prof. John Bassett Trumper - About Albanian Language
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slZUDZUc_-8[/url]

In this interview, after presenting his arguments, Trumper concludes:

[COLOR="Blue"]"... which means that the original Urheimat, as the Germans call it, [that is] the original region in which the [Albanian] language was developed, [U]could not have been in southern Europe or the Mediterranean[/U], but it should have been higher ([I]to the north[/I]) even from Kosovo. This means a long strip covering Central Europe and [U]allowing relationships with the Caucasus[/U], [i.e. with] [U]Armenia[/U] on the one hand, relationships with the Celtic-German groups which are very central and [affiliated] with the Baltic groups up above. This means that the Albanians have basically been forced to move further down from their original Urheimat in a central zone of Europe, down, down, down, by progressive waves of Slavs, Slav movements, to eventually occupy the Mediterranean basin ... "[/COLOR]

I am not a linguist, but could (proto-)Albanian have had historical contacts and relationships with the Celtic-Germanic groups in Asia Minor too, close to the Caucasus?

1) According to Jerome, Celtic was heard in Galatia in the fourth century, and survived until the end of the fifth and probably beyond.

Galatian language
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatian_language[/url]

2) Germanic-Gothic: We are told concerning an Arian bishop Selinas that his father was a Goth, his mother a Phrygian, and that for this reason he used both languages.

Celtic was present in Asia Minor for a very long time indeed, roughly 700-800 years without interruption or gaps, if not longer (?). These Celts were warriors (they arrived in Asia Minor in the 3rd century BC) and dominated a significant area and territory of Asia Minor, and it is very likely, if not certain, that they had contacts with the other / nearby peoples of Asia Minor. Gothic was also present in Asia Minor, and was spoken for a period of time.

Liberator of Makedonija 10-21-2017 04:09 AM

Would someone be so kind as to explain the various forms/vernaculars of the Albanian language? I have heard of Gheg, Tosk and Arvanitika and have just discovered the existence of Arbëresh. Curious how these differ from another and if they could be considered seperate languages belonging to one (Albanian) language family?

Liberator of Makedonija 10-21-2017 10:34 AM

[QUOTE=makedonin;65263]It is rare to hear somebody saying 'sa asht ora?' instead you will only hear 'sa është ora?' meaning 'What time is it?'[/QUOTE]

The Spanish word for hour is 'hora' which is pronounced the same as the Albanian 'ora'. Although on it's own it means hour it pretty much means time when used in the phrase 'Qué hora es' which literally translates to: [I]What hour is (it)[/I].

tchaiku 10-22-2017 01:43 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;170323]Would someone be so kind as to explain the various forms/vernaculars of the Albanian language? I have heard of Gheg, Tosk and Arvanitika and have just discovered the existence of Arbëresh. Curious how these differ from another and if they could be considered seperate languages belonging to one (Albanian) language family?[/QUOTE]

Gheg is the original dialect, which was saved by isolated Catholic Albanians of North. Tosk nowadays is the standard Albanian dialect and was influenced by Slavic languages. Tosk sounds more like a Latin/Sicilian dialect in my opinion. Tosk and Gheg are mutually intelligible, the root of the words is basically the same. Only some few words are completely different.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_dialects#Extinct_dialects[/url]

Arvanitika is a Sub-Tosk dialect a more isolated one spoken by the Albanians of Greece. Arbereshe are Christian Albanians fleeing from Peloponnese and Epirus to Italy during the Ottoman rule.
Arbereshe is to Italy what Arvanitika is to Greece.

Arvanitika in my opinion is easier to understand than Arbereshe.

Liberator of Makedonija 10-22-2017 06:46 AM

[QUOTE=tchaiku;170330]Gheg is the original dialect, which was saved by isolated Catholic Albanians of North. Tosk nowadays is the standard Albanian dialect and was influenced by Slavic languages. Tosk sounds more like a Latin/Sicilian dialect in my opinion. Tosk and Gheg are mutually intelligible, the root of the words is basically the same. Only some few words are completely different.
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_dialects#Extinct_dialects[/url]

Arvanitika is a Sub-Tosk dialect a more isolated one spoken by the Albanians of Greece. Arbereshe are Christian Albanians fleeing from Peloponnese and Epirus to Italy during the Ottoman rule.
Arbereshe is to Italy what Arvanitika is to Greece.

Arvanitika in my opinion is easier to understand than Arbereshe.[/QUOTE]


I read that these forms are not always mutually intelligible? Arbereshe especially is apparently very different

tchaiku 10-22-2017 07:05 AM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;170332]I read that these forms are not always mutually intelligible? Arbereshe especially is apparently very different[/QUOTE]

Yes Arbereshe is the most different. Arvanitika is partly mutually intelligible.

Carlin 01-17-2018 12:20 AM

[url=https://imgur.com/czwCrpY][img]http://i.imgur.com/czwCrpY.jpg[/img][/url]

Anton Westermann (18 June 1806, Leipzig – 24 November 1869, Leipzig) was a German classical philologist.

Published works:
Stephani Byzantii Ethnikon quae supersunt, 1839; (edition of Stephanus of Byzantium).

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Westermann[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_of_Byzantium[/url]

[B][COLOR="Blue"]ΑΡΒΑΝΙΟΝ ΠΌΛΗ ΤΟΥ ΠΟΝΤΟΥ .. ΑΛΒΑΝΙΟΣ
[B]
ARVANION CITY OF PONTUS, ETHNE ALBANIAN[/B][/COLOR][/B]

In this version it states TO ETHNIKON ARVANIOS (ALVANIOS = ARVANIOS) Page 110:
URL:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=sZs-AAAAcAAJ&printsec=frontcover&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false[/url]

Carlin 02-01-2018 10:02 PM

The Albanian 'Byzantine' battalions of Mirdita in Northern Albania: [B]MARDAITES-MOURTATOI-MIRDITE[/B].
[url=https://imgur.com/vhwRlCz][img]http://i.imgur.com/vhwRlCz.jpg[/img][/url]

The [I][B]decarchia Mardatorum[/B][/I], referring to a region under taxation in [B]Corfu[/B], and mentioned in an official decree issued by the despot Michael II of Epirus (chrysoboullon, 1246), has been regarded as evidence of the installation of the [B]Mardaites[/B] on the island.

URL:
[url]https://books.google.ca/books?id=CdIxBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA54&lpg=PA54&dq=mardatorum&source=bl&ots=eKtbH2eNa4&sig=n0O9cTZxS7e_1RLYlM4beH4o9r4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwirn_CgnobZAhUL4IMKHXbNDW8Q6AEIMDAC#v=onepage&q=mardatorum&f=false[/url]

Carlin 02-11-2018 10:12 AM

Паскал Миљо: Скендербег е Словен и се борел за одбрана на христијанството

URL:
[url]http://vecer.mk/makedonija/paskal-miljo-skenderbeg-e-sloven-i-se-borel-za-odbrana-na-hristijanstvoto-video[/url]

YouTube video URL:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4asPZDYxrE[/url]

Liberator of Makedonija 02-19-2018 07:02 AM

I have an interesting image to share but it exceeds the data limit. Can I get some assistance? I suck with putting photos up in these forums.

Carlin 02-19-2018 06:25 PM

[QUOTE=Liberator of Makedonija;172048]I have an interesting image to share but it exceeds the data limit. Can I get some assistance? I suck with putting photos up in these forums.[/QUOTE]

Try imgur.

[url]https://imgur.com/[/url]

It's easy to sign up. You can drag and drop images onto your Images page there. To share images Copy the link beside 'Linked BBCode'.

Carlin 03-30-2018 01:43 PM

[url=https://imgur.com/1FaChwD][img]http://i.imgur.com/1FaChwD.png[/img][/url]

Carlin 04-11-2018 03:50 PM

[B]Vladimir Orel:[/B]
[url=https://imgur.com/kBgRI2i][img]http://i.imgur.com/kBgRI2i.png[/img][/url]

--> Albanians originate from [U]North Of The Danube[/U], from around the Carpathian Mountains and the Beskidy (The Beskids or Beskid Mountains is a traditional name for a series of mountain ranges in the Carpathians, stretching from the Czech Republic in the west along the border of Poland with Slovakia up to Ukraine in the east.)

--> Albanians are evidently [U]not Ancient Illyrians[/U].

Liberator of Makedonija 04-11-2018 09:46 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;172827][B]Vladimir Orel:[/B]
[url=https://imgur.com/kBgRI2i][img]http://i.imgur.com/kBgRI2i.png[/img][/url]

--> Albanians originate from [U]North Of The Danube[/U], from around the Carpathian Mountains and the Beskidy (The Beskids or Beskid Mountains is a traditional name for a series of mountain ranges in the Carpathians, stretching from the Czech Republic in the west along the border of Poland with Slovakia up to Ukraine in the east.)

--> Albanians are evidently [U]not Ancient Illyrians[/U].[/QUOTE]

Doesn't the Slav Migration Theory also suggest this?

tchaiku 04-12-2018 11:45 AM

The author just gave a theory based on the Aromanian influence of the Albanian language. I personally have nothing against this theory but I am just being objective.

Carlin 04-23-2018 09:52 PM

From article: [url]http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-al/zbornik1990/pvlahovic-sloveni.php[/url]

Простори данашње Албаније, као што се види, били су од VII века наовамо прекривени густом мрежом словенских насеља. Најгушћа насеља су била у северо-западном делу, у Скадарском крају, а затим у средњим и јужним областима у басену Девола и Војуше.

Процес албанизирања Словена био je дуг и насилан. Словенске групе (села, делови села) одржавале су се, упркос свему, веома дуго. Таквих група je било на истоку ближе Македонији и на северозападу, ближе српским областима. У XVI веку предео Опара, на пример, био je словенски. У XVII веку југозападно од Охридског језера помињу се епископије Гора и Мокра а данас je све ово албанско-муслимански крај у коме je, као и у читавој Албанији словенска реч одавно занемела. Политичко друштвени чиниоци изазвали су ове промене. Али, још увек се може назрети наслеђе које су у културном и другом погледу Албанци примили од Словена о чему уосталом сведоче многе словенске речи које су се очувале и до данас у албанском језику.

Translation:
[COLOR="Blue"]The regions of today's Albania, as can be seen, have been covered by a thick network of Slavic settlements since the 7th century. The most densely populated settlements were in the north-western part, in the Skadar region, and then in the middle and southern regions of the Devol and Vojuse basins.

The process of Albanization of Slavs was long. Slavic groups (villages, parts of villages), however, maintained themselves for a very long time. Such groups were in the east, closer to Macedonia, and in the northwest, closer to the Serbian regions. In the 16th century, the Opar area, for example, was completely Slavic. In the 17th century, the episcopes of Gora and Mokra are mentioned southwest of the Ohrid Lake. Today, this is completely an Albanian-Muslim region, in which, as well as throughout Albania, the Slavic word went silent a long time ago. Political societal factors have caused these changes. But it is still possible to see the legacy that the Albanians received from the Slavs in a cultural and other ways, as evidenced by many Slavic words that have been preserved in the Albanian language up to the present day.[/COLOR]

Carlin 04-23-2018 10:30 PM

[url=https://imgur.com/4GU77AP][img]http://i.imgur.com/4GU77AP.jpg[/img][/url]

Carlin 04-23-2018 11:06 PM

Mirko Barjaktarevic, [B]On the common origin of some Montenegrin and some Albanian tribes[/B]

URL:
[url]http://www.rastko.rs/rastko-al/zbornik1990/mbarjaktarevic-predanja.php[/url]

Carlin 04-27-2018 10:18 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;173027][url=https://imgur.com/4GU77AP][img]http://i.imgur.com/4GU77AP.jpg[/img][/url][/QUOTE]

[url=https://imgur.com/hUMERZr][img]http://i.imgur.com/hUMERZr.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/CSQMYzW][img]http://i.imgur.com/CSQMYzW.png[/img][/url]

From the Burovic video:
[url=https://imgur.com/st2MGyE][img]http://i.imgur.com/st2MGyE.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/tshvkOU][img]http://i.imgur.com/tshvkOU.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/GiwLK0y][img]http://i.imgur.com/GiwLK0y.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/YHJtJne][img]http://i.imgur.com/YHJtJne.png[/img][/url]

Carlin 04-28-2018 10:08 AM

URLs:
[url]http://www.jstor.org/stable/290422?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents[/url]
[url]http://www.jstor.org/stable/409804?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents[/url]

[url=https://imgur.com/Er1rcnc][img]http://i.imgur.com/Er1rcnc.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/F0hNxXP][img]http://i.imgur.com/F0hNxXP.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/cEarkdA][img]http://i.imgur.com/cEarkdA.png[/img][/url]


[url=https://imgur.com/yp18U9r][img]http://i.imgur.com/yp18U9r.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/aaC5ZD5][img]http://i.imgur.com/aaC5ZD5.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/HUPKCsv][img]http://i.imgur.com/HUPKCsv.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/zUPz0gd][img]http://i.imgur.com/zUPz0gd.png[/img][/url]

Carlin 06-07-2018 10:31 PM

The names of Vlachs, who were killed during the National Liberation Anti-fascist War of Albania (1939-44), or fell in the line of duty, such as:

o Kushi, Vojo (1918-42): Legendary commander of guerrilla units during the first years of the National Liberation Anti-fascist War (1939-44), who, along with three other partisans, fell heroically in clashes with Italian fascist forces, on October 7, 1942, at a place called 'Red Hill' (Tirana). Hero of Homeland.
o Poçi, Anthony Jorgji (1926-44): Legendary partisan of the National Liberation Anti-fascist War (1939-44), who fell heroically in the village of Lazarat (Gjirokastra), in clashes with numerous enemy forces. Martyr of Homeland.
o Spiru, Nako (1918-47): Prominent leader during both the National Liberation Anti-fascist War (1939-44), and the early years of the post-liberation period, who was killed just for certain political purposes by Secret Service of Albanian Communist State, on November 20, 1947. Honor of Homeland.
o Trasha, Vasil (1926-58): Legendary aviator, who fell in the line of duty on March 23, 1958, while flying over the hills of the village of Fier-Shegan (Lushnje). Martyr of Homeland.
o Tutulani Kristaq (1919-43): Legendary partisan of the National Liberation Anti-fascist War (1939-44), who was brutally executed by Italian fascists in the village of Gosë (Kavaja), on July 6, 1943. Hero of Homeland.
o Tutulani Margarita (1924-43): Legendary partisan of the National Liberation Anti-fascist War (1939-44), who was brutally executed by Italian fascists in the village of Gosë (Kavaja), on July 6, 1943. Hero of Homeland.

Liberator of Makedonija 06-22-2018 10:45 PM

The Republic of Mirdita, formed by Catholic Ghegs in Prizren in 1921 in an effort to secede from what they saw as a Islamocentric Albanian state which was run by "Turks"

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mirdita[/url]

Carlin 06-22-2018 11:14 PM

[B]Arnautaši theory[/B]

The term Arnautaši (from Arnauti, a historical Turkish term for Albanians) was coined by 19th century Serbian historians and by that term they meant "Albanized Serbs" (Serbs who had converted to Islam and went through a process of Albanisation). Also, British historian Harold Temperley also considered "Arnauts" as "Albanised Serbs". The term used by Serbian nationalist historiography attributed most to some Albanians from Kosovo but also to Northern Albanians (Ghegs) and was used by some Serbian nationalists to explain the large numbers of Albanians in Kosovo in that migrations of Albanians from Northern Albania was the migration of Serbs to another place and not of a different people. While the theory that acquired its maximal form by nationalist Serb writers Spiridon Gopčević and Miloš Milojević became popular among some Serb historians, Western based historians dismiss it on grounds that had the population been Serbian in Northern Albania, when and how did the process of Albanianisation occur in the first place.

[B]Orahovac[/B]

[B]At the end of the 19th century, writer Branislav Nušić claimed that the Serb [I]poturice[/I] (converts to Islam) of Orahovac began speaking Albanian and marrying Albanian women.[/B] Similar claims were put forward by Jovan Hadži Vasiljević (l. 1866-1948), who claimed that when he visited Orahovac in World War I, he could not distinguish Orthodox from Islamicized and Albanized Serbs. According to him they spoke Serbian, wore the same costumes, but claimed Serbian, Albanian or Turk ethnicity. [B]The Albanian [I]starosedeoci[/I] (natives/old families) were Slavophone; they did not speak Albanian but a Slavic dialect (naš govor, "our language") at home.[/B] An Austrian Joseph Muller who visited the area (19th century) wrote that the dialect originated from the time of the Serbian uprising (1804) against the Ottomans when Albanians from Shkodër who had resettled around Valjevo and Kraljevo in central Serbia, left after those events for Orahovac. The corpus of Bulgarian terminology in the dialect was unaccounted for by Muller.

In the 1921 census, the majority of Muslim Albanians of Orahovac were registered under the category "Serbs and Croats", based on linguistic criteria.

Mark Krasniqi, the Kosovo Albanian ethnographer, recalled in 1957: "During my own research, some of them told me that [B]their tongue is similar to Macedonian rather than Serbian[/B] (it is clear that they want to dissociate themselves from everything Serbian). It is likely they are the last remnants of what is now known in Serbian sources as 'Arnautaši', Islamicised and half-way Albanianised Slavs."

[B]Janjevo[/B]

In 1922, Henry Baerlein noted that the Austrians had for thirty years tried to Albanianize the Janjevo population (see also Janjevci).

[B]Romani[/B]

The Ashkali and Balkan Egyptians, who share culture, traditions and the Albanian language, are of Romani origin.

URL:
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanisation[/url]

Carlin 07-13-2018 10:26 PM

Donald M. Nicol, The Despotate of Epiros 1267-1479: A Contribution to the History of Greece in the Middle Ages (Cambridge University Press, 1984)

[Nicol, Despotate, 101] 71: Cantac. ii. 32:I, p. 495, who also records Albanian attacks on the fortresses of Kleisoura, Skreparion and Timoron near Berat. Marino Sanudo writes of damaging Albanian incursions into Thessaly and in terras Vallone Belgradi et Thessalone subiectas imperatori Graecurum in 1327. A. Cerlini, “Nuove lettere di Marino Sanudo il vecchio,” La Bibliofilia, XLII (1940), 350-1.

[Nicol, Despotate, 104] Before he left Thessaly, the emperor received a deputation from Albanian immigrants, of whom there were by now about 12.000. They lived mainly in the mountains and came down to the plains only for the winter months.

[Nicol, Despotate, 108-110] In 1337 the emperor received alarming reports from his officers in the western provinces. The Albanians in the district between Balagrita and Kanina had again risen in rebellion, in spite of the privileges which the emperor had recently granted them. […] The emperor therefore wisely engaged a force of some two thousand Turkish infantry kindly supplied, at a price, by his friend Umur, the Turkish emir of Aydin. In the spring of 1338 he led them, together with his own army, into what Gregoras calls Illyria. He made his headquarters at Berat. The Albanians were caught unawares, not by the attack but by the nature of the attackers. They had expected a cavalry force and had taken to their hills and hiding places. But the Turkish bowmen, being light-armed and agile, soon found their way among the mountains. […] The local people who had suffered so much from the Albanian bandits were delighted to see such punishment being inflicted on them.

Carlin 07-15-2018 08:02 AM

Find by RTG:
[B][url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=175109&postcount=165[/url][/B]

[url=https://imgur.com/Zpqvkfl][img]http://i.imgur.com/Zpqvkfl.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/5RW6OBT][img]http://i.imgur.com/5RW6OBT.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/o5zmtfO][img]http://i.imgur.com/o5zmtfO.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/ZxGcaja][img]http://i.imgur.com/ZxGcaja.jpg[/img][/url]
[url=https://imgur.com/1f2uzFG][img]http://i.imgur.com/1f2uzFG.jpg[/img][/url]


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