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-   -   The Ilinden Uprising (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=867)

Soldier of Macedon 05-04-2010 12:33 AM

[QUOTE=Bill77;50980]Protect? Who or what is the cause of this danger for the Aromanian language/culture[/QUOTE]
Yes, I would like for this statement to be clarified also. How exactly is Macedonia failing its Vlach population in Krushevo?

Bill77 05-04-2010 12:36 AM

[QUOTE=Prolet;50983]Bill, Whats your opinion of Krushevo?[/QUOTE]I never been there mate and its one of my bigest regrets. Mabe next time.

I know Tose loved it dearly and had plans one day to write a song about Krushevo. Unfortunatly he was taken away from us before he can live that dream.

Prolet 05-04-2010 12:49 AM

Bill, I agree mate

The good news now is that they built a road to the Manastir Sv Preobrazenije and EVN is going to provide the Electricity so it lights up at night. Krushevo is a top city, especially during winter time.

Mastika 05-04-2010 02:45 AM

[QUOTE=Bill77;50980]Protect? Who or what is the cause of this danger for the Aromanian language/culture[/QUOTE]

Just general assimilation into wider Macedonian society. Macedonia hasn't failed them, in fact they enjoy the best minority rights of all Aromanians. However just as is happening across the Balkans the Aromanian culture is slowly dissapearing. This however ut is an issue that the community themselves will have to adress, the country can only do so much.

ps. SoM I said that more could be done not that the country is failing them.

Prolet 05-04-2010 02:58 AM

Mastika, The Vlasi have good minority rights and have always been part of Macedonia, Krushevo as a city is being redeveloped, we can always improve on all fronts but at the same time we have to be grateful for what we have because the Vlasi are not the only minority group in Macedonia.

Soldier of Macedon 05-04-2010 03:22 AM

[QUOTE="Mastika"]This however ut is an issue that the community themselves will have to adress[/QUOTE]
Macedonia does more than enough to ensure that the Vlach minority has adequate resources to maintain their culture, language, traditions, etc. Anything more and it will look like they are being shown favour over the other minorities. What exactly is Macedonia not doing enough of, that is done for other minorities? (Please exclude the extra privileged ethnic Albanian minority that secured 'more rights' after terrorists among their population made war upon Macedonia and were rewarded for their actions by the West).

Macedonia can't be blamed if the Vlach's themselves don't utilise that which is provided to them (if that is actually the case). Are you a Vlach, Mastika?

Big Bad Sven 05-04-2010 05:30 AM

Krusevo is the only city in the world that has vlach as one of the official languages i believe.

The vlach are very good people in macedonia, ideal minorities that trash like the shiptars should look to for insperation.

If the vlach people are slowly being assimilated into being macedonians then the blame can only be with them, but in saying that the vlach have always been people that have always assimilated with the larger majority in the balkans.
Maybe the Vlach dont see the assimilation with macedonians as a bad thing as they are pretty much macedonians anyway.

And as others have said, Krusevo is something special. It was my favourite place to visit in macedonia. Hoping more money and tourists come to Krusevo and that it never looses its magical old school feel and charm.

Risto the Great 05-04-2010 05:44 AM

Just edited the title of the thread.
I see no need for Macedonians to refer to this town as "Crushuva".
If the Vlachs want to do that, they can do it on a Vlach forum. I am sure "pear" in Vlach has nothing to do with "krusha"

Prolet 05-04-2010 08:21 AM

Risto, Did you know that there is a Krushevo in Croatia too?

[url]http://www.maplandia.com/croatia/zadar-knin/krusevo/[/url]

SOM, Are you from Vlasko Poteklo by any chance? Bitola has by far the most Vlach Villages especially in the Pelister region. Magarevo,Trnovo, Nize Pole are ones that come of the top of my head but the main cities where there are Vlachs in Macedonia are Skopje,Bitola,Prilep,Stip and Struga thats without adding Krushevo to the list.

Soldier of Macedon 05-04-2010 08:24 AM

Lol.......

Mastika 05-04-2010 08:52 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;51019]Macedonia does more than enough to ensure that the Vlach minority has adequate resources to maintain their culture, language, traditions, etc. Anything more and it will look like they are being shown favour over the other minorities. What exactly is Macedonia not doing enough of, that is done for other minorities? (Please exclude the extra privileged ethnic Albanian minority that secured 'more rights' after terrorists among their population made war upon Macedonia and were rewarded for their actions by the West).

Macedonia can't be blamed if the Vlach's themselves don't utilise that which is provided to them (if that is actually the case). Are you a Vlach, Mastika?[/QUOTE]

It is not just about them not utilising their minority rights (I did however remember reading that the Macedonian Orthodox Church does not permit services in Aromanian, can anybody confirm or deny this?). There are many more factors here at play. Intermarriage has greatly resulted in the loss of culture. So too has the desertion of basically all of the Aromanian villages in the Republic of Macedonia. They are all shadows of their former self, so too is the Vlasko malo in Bitola.

Here is a basic list showing the population of the Vlach villages/settlements in 1900 and in 2002.

Magarevo; [B]1900[/B]- 2,400 Aromanians, [B]2002[/B]- 87: 62 Macedonians*, 24 Vlachs
Nize Pole;[B] 1900 [/B]- 1,590 Aromanians, 250 Albanians, 190 Macedonians, [B]2002[/B]- 186: 105 Vlachs, 30 Albanians, 4 Turks, 47 Macedonians
Tnovo; [B]1900[/B]- 2,400 Aromanians, 50 Albanians, [B]2002[/B]- 278: 146 Macedonians*, 82 Albanians, 48 Vlachs
Gopes; [B]1900[/B]- 2,460 Aromanians, [B]2002[/B]- uninhabited
Magarevo; [B]1900[/B] - 2,300 Aromanians, [B]2002[/B]- 98: 87 Vlachs, 10 Macedonians*
Gorna Belica; [B]1900[/B] - 850 Aromanians, 150 Albanians, [B]2002[/B] - Uninhabited
Dolna Belica; [B]1900[/B] - 650 Aromanians, 50 Albanians, [B]2002[/B] 1026: 17 Macedonians*, 945 Albanians, 24 Vlachs, 38 Others
Krusevo; [B]1900[/B]- 4,950 Macedonians, 4,000 Aromanians, 400 Albanians, [B]2002[/B]- 5330: 4,273 Macedonians, 1,020 Vlachs, 26 Serbs, 11 Others.
Bitola; [B]1900[/B]- est. 7,000 Aromanians, [B]2002[/B]- 997 Vlachs.

*(includes many Aromanians) [the numbers

So basically in 1900 the main settlements had approx. 23,650 Vlachs now only officially 2,305 Aromanians exist in these places! This doesnt include the number of Aromanians throughout other cities in the RoM (the same source gives a total of 38,882 for all regions throughout RoM in 1900).

I am aware that migration to cities and abroad have taken its toll, and in the case of Gopes, devestation during wartime, but across the whole country "officially" there are only 9595 Vlasi of whom only 6884 have Aromanian as their mother language. I find this extremely hard to believe.

I think that it is shame for any culture or language to be lost even if these people want to be more Macedonian. One should always be proud of their own cultural heritage first and then that of their country. SOM, to answer your question no I am not Aromanian however I have number of family members who have married into Aromanian families. Bun noate :sleep: (I'm sure you can guess what that means Risto, it doesnt have to be a Vlach forum :innocent:).

Prolet 05-04-2010 09:00 AM

Mastika, Did you know that 26th of May is the national day for the Vlasi? Two days after Sveti Kiril I Metodija. If you are a declared Vlav, you get the day off.

indigen 05-06-2010 04:58 AM

Ilinden Uprising – Reports by Sydney Morning Herald, 1903
 
THE REBELLION IN MACEDONIA – Excerpts from telegrams:

INSURGENT POSITION STORMED, FLIGHT BEFORE ARTILLERY FIRE
LONDON, Aug. 31.
Advices which have been received at Salonika state that Servet Pasha, with six battalions, stormed a position held by 3000 Macedonians at Smilevo. 1000 Macedonians were killed, and the remaineder fled before the artillery fire of the Turks.

--------------------

SMH - August 14, 1903:
TURKISH TROOPS SURROUNDED
London, August 12

A body of insurgents surrounds 200 turkish troops at Dirgje.

Fourty six Macedonians have been killed in fighting at Okrida (Ohrid).

There have been sanguinary encounters between Kutzo-Wallach (Vlach) and Greek bands.

------------------

The Sydney Morning Herald, Friday, August 21, 1903:
THE KRUSHEVO FIGHTING – HEAVY LOSSES LONDON, Aug. 20.
In the fighting at Krushevo the revolutionists lost 60 killed and 12 wounded. They then left the vicinity. The casualties of the Turkish troops numbered 250.


GREEK SYMPATHY FOR TURKEY
London, Aug. 20.

The GREEK GOVERNMENT, the GREEK METROPOLITAN and the PEOPLE of GREECE ARE IN ACTIVE SYMPATHY WITH the TURKS.

-----------------

The Sydney Morning Herald, Tuesday, September 1, 1903:

INSURGENT POSITION STORMED, FLIGHT BEFORE ARTILLERY FIRE
LONDON, Aug. 31.
Advices which have been received at Salonika state that Servet Pasha, with six battalions, stormed a position held by 3000 Macedonians at Smilevo. 1000 Macedonians were killed, and the remaineder fled before the artillery fire of the Turks.


SMH - September1, 1903:
HOLY WAR URGED
LONDON, Aug. 31.

Fanatics in the Tetovo and Kostovo districts, near Uskub, urge Moslems to prepare for a holy war against Christians.

[The Koran, the sacred book of the Moslems, enjoins the making of war on infidels. To spur the believers on it is ordained that he who is slain while fighting in defence of and for the propagation of Islam is a martyr, while a deserter from the holy war (jehad) is held up as an object of execration, and has forfeited his life in this world as well as in the world to come.]

INSURGENT SUCCESS
LONDON August 31
Four hundred MACEDONIANS surprised the village of Setina and killed 189 (turkish) soldiers.

For fair use only.

Risto the Great 05-07-2010 05:39 PM

Isn't it lovely that Greece can shed a tear for Turkey only when it comes to killing Macedonians. A consistent theme from Greece.

Soldier of Macedon 05-07-2010 05:48 PM

[QUOTE][B]The GREEK GOVERNMENT, the GREEK METROPOLITAN and the PEOPLE of GREECE ARE IN ACTIVE SYMPATHY WITH the TURKS.[/B][/QUOTE]

The above says it all.

indigen 10-11-2010 01:31 AM

SMH, AUGUST 15, 1903

THE REBELLION IN MACEDONIA.
-----
EFFECTS OF BRITISH POLICY.
--
A GOOD IMPRESSION.
--
LONDON, Aug. 14.
The speech in the House of Commons by
Mr. A. J. Balfour, the Prime Minister,
outlining the policy which Great Britain
desired to have carried out in Macedonia,
has created a good impression at
Constantinople and other capitals of the
continent.
-----

SUCCES NOT ANTICIPATED
--
LONDON, Aug. 14.
Bulgaria is watching the insurrection in
Macedonia with interest, but she has no
expectation of its success.
-----

A REASSURIN STATEMENT.
--
PUNISHMENT OF MILITARY EXCESSES.
--
LONDON, Aug. 14.
The Marquis of Lansdowne, the Secretary of
State for Foreign Affairs, speaking in the
House of Lords last night in reply to a
question from Earl Spencer, made a reassuring
statement based on despatches from Sir N.
O'Connor, the British Ambassador at
Constantinople. These despatches showed that
it was the determination of the Porte to
repress and punish military excesses.
------

ARRESTS IN BULGARIA
--
LONDON, Aug. 14.
The Bulgarian police have arrested Colonel
Zontcheff and M. Jankoff, two of the leaders
of the.........agitation in Macedonia, near
the frontier, to prevent them joining the
revolutionists.
---------


SMH, AUGUST 17, 1903

THE REBELLION IN MACEDONIA.
------
THE BLACK SEA FLEET.
--
MOVING TOWARDS TURKISH WATERS.
--

LONDON, Aug. 16.
A squadron of the Russian Black Sea fleet
has sailed for Turkish waters.
------

MEMORIAL FROM BULGARIA.
--
TURKEY'S MISDEEDS.
--
HOPLESSNESS OF GOOD REULTS
--
LONDON, Aug. 15.
Bulgaria is presenting to the Powers a
memorial containing an enumeration of the
misdeeds committed by Moslems on the
Christians of the Turkish vilayets bordering
Bulgaria and the hopelessness of expecting any
good from the so-called reforms initiated by
Turkey.
------

THE MASSACRES.
--
MUTUAL RECRIMINATIONS.
--
LONDON, Aug. 15.
[B]Turks and Macedonians mutually accuse each
other of committing massacres of their
opponents.[/B]

[COLOR="Red"][B]The instances given include massacres of
Christians at Kitchevo and of Moslems at
Krushevo. Turkish troops, after the massacre,
succeeded in reoccupying the later place.[/B][/COLOR]

[B]Advices from Belgrade, Servia, state that Turks
have been guilty of horrible atrocities in
villages near Monastir. The Turks have destroyed
14 villages in the Uskub and Veles districts.[/B]

[Veles(Koprulu) is situated on the Vardar, 27
miles south-east by east of Uskub. At Krushevo,
which is 23 miles north by west of Monastir,
… bands destroyed the Kopak (palace) with
dynamite and killed 50 Turks. After the occupation
of Kitchevo by the Turks they were unsuccessfully
attacked by insurgents.]
------

POWER'S DEMANDS.
--
PROTECTION FOR CONSULS.
--
[B][COLOR="Red"]LONDON, Aug. 15.
The Ambassadors at Constantinople have demanded of
the Porte measures for the protection of consuls
and foreign subjects in the Monastir district owing
to Moslem population demanding arms, ostensibly for
self-defence.[/COLOR][/B]

[B][The Turkish officials at Uskub lately distributed
5000 rifles among the Mohammedan population, which
then threatened the Christians with massacres. No
doubt the Turks have acted similarly in the Monastir
district.][/B]
--------

AMMUNITION FOR MACEDONIA.
--
DISGUISED AS HARDWARE.
--
LONDON, Aug. 15.
The Customs officials at Belgrade, Servia, have
confiscated a quantity of ammunition which was
packed in cases and disguised by being labelled
hardware and nails.

The ammunition was destined for Macedonia.
--------

TURKISH VILLAGERS MASSACRED.
--
ISURRECTION SPREADING.
--
WOMEN FIGHTING.
--
LONDON, Aug. 14.
Turkish advices state that all the inhabitants
except 20 of the Turkish village of Konali, near
Monastir, have been massacred.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Extraordinary reports have been received from
Salonika stating that the insurrection is spreading
eastwards, that women are participating in the
fighting, and that the Austrian Consul there has
been threatened.[/COLOR][/B]

The English newspapers demand the publication of
the reports of the British Consuls in the
disaffected districts.
-----------

RUSSAIN CONSUL'S MURDERER.
--
THE GUILTY EXECUTED.
--
LONDON, Aug. 15.
The gendarme Halim, the murderer of M. Rostowsky,
the Russian Consul at Monastir, has been sentenced to
death and hanged, together with an accomplice who did
not interfere to prevent the crime.

Another gendarme in connection with the same
offence received a sentence of 15 years penal
servitude.
--------

DESTRUCTION OF A BRIDGE.
--
LONDON, Aug. 15.
A bridge on the Monastir railway line has been
destroyed by dynamite.
---------

---------

THE SITUATION DESPERATE.
--
REBELS PLUNDERING EVERYWHERE.
--
LONDON, Aug. 16.
Reports from Viena are to the effect that the situation
in Macedonia is desperate. The Porte is incapable of
restoring order. Strong bands of rebels are
plundering villages and firing houses everywhere.
----------------

For fair use only.

indigen 10-11-2010 02:36 AM

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_12_1903_telegrams.jpg[/IMG]
[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_12_1903_telegrams.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_12_1903_telegrams.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

NB: Photobucket.com unfortunately automatically rezied the original file from approx 200kb down to approx 60kb and may not be very readable.

Onur 10-11-2010 03:36 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;51966]Isn't it lovely that Greece can shed a tear for Turkey only when it comes to killing Macedonians. A consistent theme from Greece.[/QUOTE]


Nah, it just shows how big lie is the so-called religious brotherhood. It was always a myth and easily forgotten when it comes to political benefit and such.

We observed the same thing for muslims when Arabs did sellout us for the benefit of British. Russians did the same thing too, when their so-called Orthodox brothers, Greeks invaded Anatolia, Russians said "People of Russia are in active sympathy with the Turks".


Btw, it`s sad to read all these quotes. It doesn't look like a war but looks like a civil war instead cuz ordinary people killing each other too and it`s portrayed as christians vs muslims!, sigh...

indigen 10-11-2010 05:44 AM

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/map1.jpg[/IMG]
[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/map1.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]Map of Ethno-Historical Macedonia.[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_14_1903_balkan_states_map.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_14_1903_balkan_states_map.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_18_1903_telegrams.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_18_1903_telegrams.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_18_1903_telegrams_b.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_18_1903_telegrams_b.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_19_1903_telegrams.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_19_1903_telegrams.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_19_1903_telegrams_b.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_19_1903_telegrams_b.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_20_1903_telegrams.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_20_1903_telegrams.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_21_1903_part_b.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_21_1903_part_b.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]
[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_21_1903_part_c.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_21_1903_part_c.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_22_1903_telegrams.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_aug_22_1903_telegrams.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_aug_27_1903.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]Steam ship Macedonia launched [/COLOR][/URL](smh_aug_27_1903.jpg).

[URL="http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/history/1903/smh_sept_01_1903_telegrams_b.jpg"][COLOR="Navy"]smh_sept_01_1903_telegrams_b.jpg[/COLOR][/URL]

indigen 10-16-2010 03:29 AM

[B]SMH,8 Aug 1903 - Telegrams.[/B]

[B]The Balkans
-------------

[SIZE="4"]Revolution in Macedonia
---
Repressive Measures
---
London, Aug. 6.[/B]
[COLOR="Red"]The Council of Turkish Ministers at Constantinople
has decided to adopt measures of extreme severity
to suppress the revolution at Monastir [Bitola], and
also to employ Albanian troops, which will inevitably
lead to massacres.[/COLOR]
--------------
[/SIZE]

[B]Precautions in Bulgaria.
----
London, Aug. 7.[/B]
The Bulgarian Government is trying to prevent ammunition
passing the frontier into Macedonia.

It is feared in Vienna that the Balkan trouble is entering
into a critical phase.
----------
[SIZE="4"]
[B]ARMENIA
----
A Serious Allegation
----
London, Aug. 6.[/B]
[COLOR="Red"]The Russian Ambassador to Turkey, M. Zinovieff, has made
strong representation to the Porte to the effect that the
Kurds are adopting a menacing attitude, and that the
authorities are secretly arming the Kurds while endeavouring
to prove that the Armenians have a revolutionary intention.[/COLOR]
-------------[/SIZE]

[B]SMH, Monday, August 10, 1903[/B]

[B]The Balkans
---------

A Premature Outbreak
---
London, Aug. 7.[/B]
Consular despatches from Monastir [Bitola] state that the
insurrection broke out a fortnight earlier than was originally
intended, matters having been precipitated by chiefs of the
bands concerned in it becoming disconcerted at the preventative
measures adopted by the authorities....The Porte, owing to the
impoverishment of the Treasury, is unable to accede to the
demands of the railway companies for an increase to 20,000
of the guards detailed for the protection of the railways.
--------------

[B]RESERVES INSUBORDINATE
------
London, Aug. 8.[/B]
Turkish Redifs (Army Reserves) in Macedonia are discontented,
and are insubordinate. Many of them have deserted, and have
sold their arms to the insurgents.
---------------


[B]THE BALKANS' INSURRECTION
---------

Employment of Bashi Bazouks
-----
London, Aug. 9.[/B]
The Bulgarian Government has asked the Powers to influence
the Porte not to employ the Bashi-Bouzouks in suppressing
the rebellion in the vilayet of Monastir [Bitola].
---------

[B]SMH, Aug 11, 1903.

The Balkans Insurrection.
-----------

The Powers Pressure.
---
Decisive Actions Urged.
---
London, Aug. 10.[/B]
The "Times" says that since the reform settlement of
Macedonia pressed upon Turkey by Austria and Russia
has failed, it is urgently necessary that those two
Powers should consider whether they ought to longer
refrain from taking more decisive steps.
-----------
[SIZE="4"]
[B]OUTBREAK SPREADING
---
London, Aug. 10.[/B]
The insurrection in the Balkans is spreading in the
direction of Salonika and Uskub [Skopje].
--------------

[B]TROOPS FOR MANASTIR [BITOLA]
---
London, Aug. 10.[/B]
[COLOR="Red"]Omar Pasha is leading 16 battalions from Presend
[Prizren, Kosovo] to Monastir [Bitola], and is
mobilising 24 fresh battalions of reserves in the
Salonika district.[/COLOR]
----------

[B]TWENTY THOUSAND INSURGENTS.
----
WELL-ARMED, MONEY PLENTIFUL.
----
London, Aug. 9.[/B]
[COLOR="Red"]Ten thousand insurgents, in four camps, are operating
in the neighbourhood of Monastir [Bitola], and 10,000
around Kastoria [Kostur], which is situated 36 miles
to the south of Monastir [Bitola].[/COLOR] The insurgents are
reported to be well armed and to have plenty of money.

Anticipating the arranged rising by three weeks, the
insurgents caught the Turks napping.
-----------

RUSSIAN CONSUL SHOT.
---
London, Aug. 9.
A Turkish gendarme yesterday shot M. Rostovsky, the
Russian Consul at Monastir [Bitola], in an altercation
arising out of an omission to salute him.


[/SIZE]

Soldier of Macedon 08-04-2011 12:39 AM

Bump - well worth another read.

Daskalot 08-07-2011 03:16 AM

Is there a pdf version available or is the book still available in stores somewhere in the world?

Soldier of Macedon 12-26-2011 11:31 PM

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Republic_of_Macedonia[/url]
[QUOTE]Jews also took part in the liberation movement against Ottoman rule. A great number of Macedonian Jews participated in the Ilinden-Preobrazhenie Uprising. One of the most notable participants was Rafael Moshe Kamhi who led one of the rebel groups. It was him who took part in the early activities of the movement under the nickname Skandereg (Skender-beg). He headed a unit in Debar during the uprising of 1903.[21] Mentes Kolomonos, Santo Aroesti, the Muson brothers and Avram Nisan are other known participants in the uprising who collected weapons and provided rebels with money.,[22][23][/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.jasenovac.org/images/jews_of_yugoslavia_1941_1945.pdf[/url]
[QUOTE]……..a great number of Jews participated in the “Ilinden” uprising of the Macedonian people (1903) and it was Rafael M. Kamhi (Skender-beg) who led one of the rebel groups.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ezrm.org.mk/index.php/en/history[/url]
[QUOTE]There is historical evidence of Jews participating in the Macedonian revolution (Rafael Kamhi was the head of the unit in Debar in the Ilinden Uprising; Mentes Kolomonos, Santo Aroesti, the Muson brothers and Avram Nisan were also participants). Jews also participated in the Young Turk Revolution, and many of them embraced the vision of Kemal Ataturk. In addition, there is evidence of communication between Gjorce Petrov and Theodor Herzl regarding the liberation of Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://elmundosefarad.wikidot.com/jewish-communities-in-macedonia-prior-to-1941[/url]
[QUOTE]The development and welfare of the Jewish communities depended on the development of the wider community. So the Jews shared the hard destiny of the Macedonian people and the other minorities, took part in the wars and uprisings, struggled together with the others against economic difficulties and bad weather conditions. They always supported the Macedonian liberation movements to the best of their ability and knowledge.

In 1903 the Jews took an active part in the great Ilinden Uprising. Thus, [[Raphael Kamhi]] (1870—1969) from Bitola maintained close contact with the leaders of the Uprising and, therefore, was able to hand down important information about that period. His memoirs (handwritten) give evidence of his participation in the preparations for the Uprising and his personal contacts with its leaders Gjorche Petrov, Dame Gruev, Pere Toshev and Gotse Delchev. As he was particularly close to Gjorche Petrov, he enrolled in his company and was charged with the collection of funds, guns and ammunition.

All Jewish communities in Macedonia had a bias towards the Uprising and contributed to it in one way or another. For example, Mentesh Kamhi supplied it with weapons, the brothers Mush on and Abram Nisan, milkmen from Bitola, often transported guns and othei necessities; Santo Aruesti collected money and Peris provided the companies with guns and medical supplies. The Uprising was also supported by Jews from other cities, the greatest help coming from the Salonica Jews.[/QUOTE]

The LION will ROAR 04-12-2012 08:35 AM

Светскиот печат за Македонија по Илинденското востание

[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-d83Wo8AbtCA/T1s45IVeh0I/AAAAAAAALuQ/j7pE-kbPE0Y/s400/La%2Bmise%2Ba%2Bsac%2Bde%2BKruchevo.JPG[/IMG]

Во Крушевскиот манифест јасно и недвосмислено е потенцирано залагањето на македонските востаници за правилна војна за ослободување на Македонија и за ненапаѓање на турското цивилно население:

„Ние не дигнафне пушка протиф вас - това би било страм за нас; ние не дигнафне пушка протиф мирнио, трудољубивио и чеснио турски нарот, шчо се прерануат, како нас со крваф пот - тој јет наш брат и со него сне живејале и пак сакаме да живејме; ние не излегофне да колиме и да грабиме, да палиме и да крадиме - доста ни сет зулумите на безбројните деребеи по нашата сирота и окрвавена Македонија; ние не излегофне да порисјанчуваме и да бесчестиме вашите мјаки и сестри, жени и ќерки; требит да знајте оти вашио имот, вашио живот, вашата вера и вашата чес ни сет толку скапи, колку шчо ни сет скапи нашите.“

За жал, ваквите високо цивилизациски и хумани вредности на македонските востаници не ги делеле османлиските војници. Па, така по крвавото задушување на Илинденското востание, османлиската армија масакрирала огромен број на невооружени македонски цивили и запалила повеќе македонски села.

Ваквата тажна слика за случувањата по Илинденското востание е опишана во весникот „Colonist“ од 21. август 1903 година:

„Турските трупи, кои скоро го окупираа Крушево, го масакрираа целото христијанско население во градот, вклучително и вработените во тутунската компанија, која е под европска контрола.“

Оваа статија не претставува никаков исклучок. Статии со слична содржина за убиства на македонски невооружени цивили од страна на османлиската војска можат да се најдат во повеќе светски весници од тој период. Во францускиот весник „La Vie Populaire“ од 25. септември 1903 година, целата насловна страна е посветена на ваквите крвави настани (слика долу лево).

На самата илустрација може да се види како османлиската војска поминува покрај масакрираните тела на македонското цивилно население на Крушево. Под илустрацијата стои текстот:

„Прикази (се однесува на илустрацијата) направени од еден од нашите дописници, од главните улици на несреќното место (Крушево), по убиствата и грабежите од страна на турските војници...“

По повод убиствата на недолжното македонско цивилно население, големиот македонски револуционер Даме Груев ќе испрати протестно писмо до Хилми Паша во кое директно ќе му порача:

„...Да се прекинат насилствата, грабежите и колежот на мирното немухамеданско население...Впрочем, вие сте должни да водите со нас правилна војна.“

За ова пишува и во престижниот американски весник „The New York Times“ (2. септември, 1903):

„... Водачот на револуционерите, Даме Груев, со писмо побара од Хилми Паша да ги прекине варварските акти на турските војници и башибозукот ...“

Во истата статија се опишани и дел од овие варварски акти врз недолжното македонско цивилно население:

„...Турските војници во ноќта го масакрираа целото население од 180 мажи и 200 жени. Турците, исто така, го масакрираа населенитето на селото Велеси.“

*Под називот „турски војници“ се мисли на војници на Отоманската Империја.

Александар Стеванов, објавено и на Македонска Нација

[url]http://networkedblogs.com/wkwTK[/url]

Google translator :-
World press for Macedonia after the Ilinden Uprising
In Krusevo Manifesto clearly and unambiguously outlined the efforts of the Macedonian insurgents for proper war for liberation of Macedonia and the Turkish non-aggression civilian population:

"We have not raised against you - That would be our shame, we have not raised against the peaceful diligent and honest Turkish people who, who feeds, like us by blood and sweat - he is our brother and lived with him and then we to live, we have not risen to slaughter and plunder, to set fire to kradime - rather we set the whims of countless derebei after our poor and stained Macedonia; we have not risen to convert to Christianity and disgrace your mothers and sisters, wives and daughters ought to know that your property, your lives, your faith and your honor are so expensive, how expensive who feeds us set our own. "

Unfortunately, these highly civilized and humane values ​​of the Macedonian insurgents do not share the Ottoman troops. Well, so after the bloody suppression of the Ilinden Uprising, the Ottoman army massacred a large number of unarmed civilians and set fire to Macedonian several Macedonian villages.

Such a sad picture of the events after the Ilinden uprising is described in the newspaper "Colonist" of 21. August 1903:

"Turkish troops, who occupied nearly Krusevo, massacred the entire Christian population of the city, including employees of the tobacco company, which has been under European control."

This article is no exception. Articles with similar content for the murder of Macedonian unarmed civilians by Ottoman Army can be found in many world newspapers of that period. The French newspaper "La Vie Populaire" by 25. September 1903, the entire front page is devoted to such bloody events (photo below left).

In the illustration can be seen as the Ottoman army passing masakriranite bodies of Macedonian civilians in town. Under standing illustration text:

"Displays (refer to illustration) made by one of our correspondents, the main streets of unfortunate place (Krusevo) after killing and looting by the Turkish troops ..."

On the occasion of the murder of innocent Macedonian civilian population, the great Macedonian revolutionary Dame Gruev will send a protest letter to Hilmi Pasha which will directly told:

"... To stop the violence, looting and slaughter of peaceful nemuhamedansko population ... Actually, you are obliged to keep us regular war."

This writes the prestigious American newspaper "The New York Times" (September 2, 1903):

"... The leader of the revolutionaries, Dame Gruev, letter asked Hilmi Pasha to stop the barbaric acts of the Turkish soldiers and bashibozukot ... "

The same article described some of these barbaric acts against innocent Macedonian civilian population:

"... Turkish soldiers in the night massacred the entire population of 180 men and 200 women. Turks also massacred naseleniteto village Veles. "

* Under the title "Turkish soldiers" think of the soldiers of the Ottoman Empire.

Alexander Stevanov published the Macedonian Nation

Soldier of Macedon 01-30-2017 02:17 AM

[QUOTE="Albo"]At every stage of the modern history of Macedonia Albanians have been involved .. eg, Krushevo Republic, (where most of the weapons were supplied by Albanians..........the cherry wood cannon was supplied by Albanians.....[/QUOTE]
Can you provide any sources from the time (or close to it) which indicate that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries?
[QUOTE].....many fought alongside the Half Albanian half Vlachs Pitu Guli[/QUOTE]
Who are those many? Do you honestly think more fought alongside the Macedonian revolutionaries or against them as Turkish lackeys (i.e. bashibozuks)? What evidence is there that Pitu Guli was "half Albanian" (by that I assume you mean half ethnic Albanian), aside from some claims that his mother came from Albania? Provide actual sources from the time.
[QUOTE].....the Krushevo republics parliament was to be made up of 60 members 20 Macedonians 20 Albanians and 20 Vlachs.[/QUOTE]
Let's clear something up about Krushevo. It first entered into written record around the middle of the 15th century, and given its name, it was a Macedonian settlement. At the end of the 18th century, there was a significant population influx after Ali Pasha (your fellow ethnic Albanian) decided to destroy Moskopole. Thousands of Vlachs arrived in Krushevo and some Christian Albanians followed. Macedonians from other parts of Macedonia also moved there. Just over a 100 years later, at the beginning of the 20th century and only a few years before the Ilinden Uprising, the Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil K'nchov recorded that Krushevo consisted of 9,350 inhabitants, only 400 of which were Christian Albanians. The rest were about evenly spread between Vlachs and those whom he called "Bulgarians" (adherents of the Exarchate) - but which he himself admits [U]call themselves Macedonians[/U]. By such accounts, ethnic Albanians were an insignificant (and Christian) minority in the town compared to Macedonians and Vlachs. In relation to what you wrote above, again, provide an actual source from the time which states that there were "20 Albanians" in the parliament.

I have read about these assertions from Albanians in the past but none have actually corroborated them with evidence from the period in question. If you could do so it would make for an interesting discussion. If you can't, I would suggest you cease making such claims.

Albo 01-30-2017 06:10 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;166692]Can you provide any sources from the time (or close to it) which indicate that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries?

Who are those many? Do you honestly think more fought alongside the Macedonian revolutionaries or against them as Turkish lackeys (i.e. bashibozuks)? What evidence is there that Pitu Guli was "half Albanian" (by that I assume you mean half ethnic Albanian), aside from some claims that his mother came from Albania? Provide actual sources from the time.

Let's clear something up about Krushevo. It first entered into written record around the middle of the 15th century, and given its name, it was a Macedonian settlement. At the end of the 18th century, there was a significant population influx after Ali Pasha (your fellow ethnic Albanian) decided to destroy Moskopole. Thousands of Vlachs arrived in Krushevo and some Christian Albanians followed. Macedonians from other parts of Macedonia also moved there. Just over a 100 years later, at the beginning of the 20th century and only a few years before the Ilinden Uprising, the Bulgarian ethnographer Vasil K'nchov recorded that Krushevo consisted of 9,350 inhabitants, only 400 of which were Christian Albanians. The rest were about evenly spread between Vlachs and those whom he called "Bulgarians" (adherents of the Exarchate) - but which he himself admits [U]call themselves Macedonians[/U]. By such accounts, ethnic Albanians were an insignificant (and Christian) minority in the town compared to Macedonians and Vlachs. In relation to what you wrote above, again, provide an actual source from the time which states that there were "20 Albanians" in the parliament.

I have read about these assertions from Albanians in the past but none have actually corroborated them with evidence from the period in question. If you could do so it would make for an interesting discussion. If you can't, I would suggest you cease making such claims.[/QUOTE]
========================
Sorry been a bit busy of late and can't really spend too much time responding to everyone on here...

=================

Just a few quick links on the above topic.. I'll post more in the future

[I] Amongst the various ethno-religious groups (millets) in Kruševo a Republican Council was elected with 60 members - 20 representatives from each one: Aromanians (Vlachs); Slav-, Vlach- and Albanian-speaking Greek Patriarchists and Macedonian Bulgarians (Exarchists).[7][8][9][10][11] The Council also elected an executive body - the Provisional Government, with six members (2 from each mentioned group),[12] whose duty was to promote law and order and manage supplies, finances, and medical care. [/I]

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo_Republic[/url]

========÷÷================

[B]Without albanians, Krusevo Republic would have been forgotten.[/B]

[url]https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Without+albanians,+Krusevo+Republic+would+have+been+forgotten.-a0205988106[/url]

===========================
You can see here in Pitu Gulis brigade all those wearing the traditional Albanian white skull cap are Albanian!

[IMG]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo_Republic#/media/File%3ABASA_114K-1-26_Pitu_Guli%2C1903.jpg[/IMG]

===========================
Page 225 also mentions the 20 20 20 split in the parliament..

[url]https://books.google.com.au/books?id=48NyoQdOWH0C&pg=PA224&dq=albanians+in+the+krusevo+republic&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkh9_12-nRAhVFUZQKHcI1A-8Q6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=albanians%20in%20the%20krusevo%20republic&f=true[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 01-30-2017 06:41 AM

First, the wikipedia extract above doesn't mention anything about "20 Albanians". Second, the next link is just a summary of the writings of a certain Rexhat Nexhipi. Third, the picture of Pitu Guli's brigade is not appearing on screen (you may have to upload it again). Fourth, the last link you posted only indicates the opinion of somebody. I think I was pretty clear in my post. I asked you to provide actual sources either from or near that time to corroborate the following:

1) Ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons for the uprising in Krusevo
2) Ethnic Albanians provided the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries
3) Many ethnic Albanians assisted the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo
4) Pitu Guli is half ethnic Albanian
5) 20 Albanians were part of the parliament in Krusevo

[QUOTE=Albo;166697]Sorry been a bit busy of late and can't really spend too much time responding to everyone on here...[/QUOTE]
I can understand that you may be busy, but in future refrain from making such assertions until you're actually prepared to back them up with [B][U]actual sources from or near that period[/U][/B]. It's not that I completely doubt everything you've said (although I find it highly unlikely), but I can't allow you to present such matters as fact when you've failed to provide any supportive evidence. If the sources are in a language you cannot understand then at the very least provide the chapter and page number and I will translate it here.

Albo 01-30-2017 07:24 AM

Look the fact that Albanians were involved in the Krushevo republic Uprising has never been questioned..
They were a factor on both sides.. either fighting as rebels or as paid mercenaries on side of the empire...

Translate this.. commnets from Vlado Popovski!

[url]http://koha.net/?id=8&arkiva=1&l=110038[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 01-30-2017 08:06 AM

[QUOTE=Albo;166699]Look the fact that Albanians were involved in the Krushevo republic Uprising has never been questioned..
They were a factor on both sides.. either fighting as rebels or as paid mercenaries on side of the empire...[/QUOTE]
Albo, I have never denied that some ethnic Albanians assisted the Macedonian revolutionaries, but much more fought against them. The fact is, you have failed to corroborate any of the 5 assertions you made with actual sources from that period. You will therefore cease repeating these assertions until you finally decide to spend some time to properly research the topic and locate supportive documentation. Right now, what you've said amounts to little more than innuendo randomly picked up from some ill-informed website catering to Albanian delusions. You will not be afforded the privilege of regurgitating that here. Do some proper research. I have. It's a worthy effort.
[QUOTE]Translate this.. commnets from Vlado Popovski!

[url]http://koha.net/?id=8&arkiva=1&l=110038[/url][/QUOTE]
I translated it, it provides no reference to actual sources from the time.

Albo 01-30-2017 08:32 AM

Vlado Popovski is a well known Macedonian HISTORIAN... He knows and has read more on the history of Macedonia than probably everyone in this forum... his comments hold weight..

Here have a read here.. more mention of the 20,20,20 council..
It was a multi ethnic Uprising.. that was a reflection of the population than and as it is today.
It would have gained more support from the Albanians but it was rejected by the Albanian elites at the time as being disorganized and underfunded..


[B][url]https://books.google.com.au/books?id=6RveDmHbIv8C&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=krusevo+republic+council&source=bl&ots=qp03zQmYzu&sig=N63089C4jBJ3yZ0Yvl69oVlEkIM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiT1cyp-OnRAhWFX5QKHf7NCooQ6AEIMjAI#v=onepage&q=krusevo%20republic%20council&f=false[/url][/B]


Repost of earlier picture where Albanians wearing White scull caps are part of the brigade

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo_Republic#/media/File%3ABASA_114K-1-26_Pitu_Guli%2C1903.jpg[/url]

Soldier of Macedon 01-30-2017 06:33 PM

[QUOTE=Albo;166701]Vlado Popovski is a well known Macedonian HISTORIAN... He knows and has read more on the history of Macedonia than probably everyone in this forum... his comments hold weight..[/QUOTE]
Aren't you at all curious on what sources such people base their comments on? Don't you want to read these sources and form an opinion of your own to compare and validate that of others? Or is independent thought not familiar to you? As a historian, of course Popovski's comments hold some weight, but if the level of your curiosity or intellect allows you to go no further than to read other people's opinions, then at least show me where he says that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries? Where does he say that Pitu Guli is half ethnic Albanian and that 20 Albanians were part of the parliament in Krusevo?
[QUOTE]Here have a read here.. more mention of the 20,20,20 council..[/QUOTE]
I did. It says nothing about 20 Albanians.
[QUOTE]It was a multi ethnic Uprising..[/QUOTE]
From the same link you provided: [I]"Pitu Gule, a noted martyr of the Krusevo Republic, was a Vlach.........One should not, however, over-estimate the multi-ethnic character of the Ilinden rising. IMRO was an overwhelmingly Slavic movement…."[/I]. Quick question - do you even read the sources you post or do you just do a quick google search based on a few key words?
[QUOTE]....that was a reflection of the population than and as it is today.[/QUOTE]
Rubbish. Population statistics clearly depict ethnic Albanians as a tiny minority in Krusevo.
[QUOTE]It would have gained more support from the Albanians but it was rejected by the Albanian elites at the time as being disorganized and underfunded..[/QUOTE]
Which Albanian elites are you referring to, the overwhelming majority whose ancestors turned to Islam? If I was to guess I would say that most of them were much happier serving their Turkish masters in a position of privilege as opposed to joining forces with that oppressed mass they once may have called their Christian brethren.
[QUOTE]Repost of earlier picture where Albanians wearing White scull caps are part of the brigade

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo_Republic#/media/File%3ABASA_114K-1-26_Pitu_Guli%2C1903.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
That picture was taken from some distance and there are probably 150 fighters in it, give or take. How many of them are wearing the skull-cap? Or is anybody with a white hat an Albanian? You know, when you first joined this forum and starting posting all sorts of stuff in a flurry, I was prepared to give you the benefit of doubt in the hope that there was some substance behind it all. I am now starting to realise that you are little more than a light-weight who hasn't really done any real research himself and likes to parrot fanciful stories rather than present his perspectives with a level of credibility. Do yourself a favour - either start properly researching this topic or stop wasting my time, because sooner rather than later I am going to get tired of asking you the same questions over and over again.

Albo 02-01-2017 10:33 AM

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by Albo View Post
Vlado Popovski is a well known Macedonian HISTORIAN... He knows and has read more on the history of Macedonia than probably everyone in this forum... his comments hold weight..

Aren't you at all curious on what sources such people base their comments on? Don't you want to read these sources and form an opinion of your own to compare and validate that of others? Or is independent thought not familiar to you? As a historian, of course Popovski's comments hold some weight, but if the level of your curiosity or intellect allows you to go no further than to read other people's opinions, then at least show me where he says that ethnic Albanians provided "most" of the weapons and the "cherry wood cannon" to the Macedonian revolutionaries?[/QUOTE]

Buddy.. I don't know all the sources that Historians like Popovski and Nexhipi have read to mention what they have about the Albanians being a factor in the illinden Uprising..
Over the years I've read bits and pieces about that period and to be honest I haven't studied it thoroughly due to the fact that there isn't a lot of documented history in English or Albanian that I've come across,

The parts that I've mentioned are what I've read and what others (Historians) have said.. now I don't take what all Historians say as gospel.. but they obviously have reasons for what they say based on some sort of source.. maybe try contacting Vlado Popovski and ask him why he says what he says about the Albanian involvement in Krushevo..

It's know and common knowledge that Albanians provided and sold weapons throughout the Balkans during that time, prior and even today.

So it's not unfeasible to believe that the cherry cannon was provided or built or sold by Albanians (does into really matter?) But I've read it in the past also mainly from Albanian sources to be honest.

Now as for Pitu Guli being Half Albanian .. Again most say he was a Vlach who's family originated from Voskopja in Albania and migrated to Krushevo after the city was burned down. That's where most Vlachs in Krushevo originate from.. Now Voskopja was a Vlach majority city .. but it also has Albanian "Mahalas" neighborhoods which were made up of Orthodox Albanians. Mixed marriages were and still are very common in southern Albania between Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians..
Now the when Popovski says there are indications that he was Albanian or partially Albanian it would be from the fact that the Vlachs of Krushevo originate from Voskopja and that where maybe some mixed heritage..

But having said that.. there is another theory that says that communist Historians overplayed the role that Albanians played to create a stronger unified relations between Albanians and Macedonians. This also holds some weight ..

Now as an Albanian we obviously don't see the Illinden Uprising as a major part of our history.. We have many similar, smaller and larger movements and batttles against the ottomans in our history that we study and celebrate.
Eg
The league of Prizren

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Prizren[/url]

Or

The Dervish Cara Uprising ( That for a time liberated Skopje) and many other Albanian majority regions.

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dervish_Cara[/url]

Or

The Albanian revolt of 1910

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_revolt_of_1910[/url]


[QUOTE]
Here have a read here.. more mention of the 20,20,20 council..
I did. It says nothing about 20 Albanians.
Quote:
It was a multi ethnic Uprising..
From the same link you provided: "Pitu Gule, a noted martyr of the Krusevo Republic, was a Vlach.........One should not, however, over-estimate the multi-ethnic character of the Ilinden rising. IMRO was an overwhelmingly Slavic movement….". Quick question - do you even read the sources you post or do you just do a quick google search based on a few key words? [/QUOTE]

It's does mention 20, 20, 20.. read it again...

Yes I did read that part.. I never said Albanains were a majority in the movement...
I said they were a factor and they should be remembered as that.. nothing more nothing less...


[QUOTE] ....that was a reflection of the population than and as it is today.
Rubbish. Population statistics clearly depict ethnic Albanians as a tiny minority in Krusevo. [/QUOTE]

I was referring to Macedonia as a whole...
The figures you mentioned earlier were for the city only..

But even today the Krushevo municipality is about 20% Albanian maybe more since no census has been done since 2001...


[QUOTE]It would have gained more support from the Albanians but it was rejected by the Albanian elites at the time as being disorganized and underfunded..

Which Albanian elites are you referring to, the overwhelming majority whose ancestors turned to Islam? If I was to guess I would say that most of them were much happier serving their Turkish masters in a position of privilege as opposed to joining forces with that oppressed mass they once may have called their Christian brethren. [/QUOTE]

I'm referring to Albanian elites that were a combination of Muslims (Sunni & Bekteshi) Catholics and Orthodox..
The Albanian Renaissance unlike other Balkan people wasn't exclusively religious based.

These elites were mostly members of high positions in the Ottoman Empire.. most were far more educated and willing to sacrifice than the illiterate and incompetent corrupt "leaders" we have today.

[QUOTE]That picture was taken from some distance and there are probably 150 fighters in it, give or take. How many of them are wearing the skull-cap? Or is anybody with a white hat an Albanian? [/QUOTE]

Well everyone in the Balkans knows that Albanains have historically been recognized as wearers of white skull caps.. ( belo kapce) as Serbs and Macedonians call it.

[QUOTE]You know, when you first joined this forum and starting posting all sorts of stuff in a flurry, I was prepared to give you the benefit of doubt in the hope that there was some substance behind it all. I am now starting to realise that you are little more than a light-weight who hasn't really done any real research himself and likes to parrot fanciful stories rather than present his perspectives with a level of credibility.[/QUOTE]

Ouchh..!!!
Just when I thought we were getting along :-p
Look I don't have time locate sources from 1903 of obscure questionable events that don't hold much bearing on the situation on the ground today...

I would rather discuss how Macedonia can be improved by working together and dealing with each others grievances...
One would be much more patriotic to work towards getting rid of the people that have brought Macedonia to this situation that it's in..

People like Gruevski and Ahmeti are toxic to Macedonia.. this should be where energies are focused...

Soldier of Macedon 02-01-2017 07:31 PM

[QUOTE=Albo;166750]...I don't know all the sources that Historians like Popovski and Nexhipi have read.......[/QUOTE]
You don't seem to know any of them, which further goes to show how uninformed you are about the subject.
[QUOTE].....maybe try contacting Vlado Popovski and ask him why he says what he says about the Albanian involvement in Krushevo..[/QUOTE]
I don't need to, because, for the umpteenth time, I have never denied that there may have been some ethnic Albanians that supported the Macedonian revolutionaries, just like you shouldn't deny that the overwhelming majority of ethnic Albanians were against them.
[QUOTE]It's know and common knowledge that Albanians provided and sold weapons throughout the Balkans during that time, prior and even today.[/QUOTE]
You initially stated that ethnic Albanians provided "most of the weapons" for the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo. Now you're backtracking and revising your argument by stating that they merely sold weapons throughout the Balkans. Can you see why it's hard to take you seriously? You make a point, you're called out on it, then you change your story. If you didn't exaggerate in the first place you wouldn't be in this predicament.
[QUOTE]So it's not unfeasible to believe that the cherry cannon was provided or built or sold by Albanians.....[/QUOTE]
Without proper research, basing feasibility on scattered references you've come across on Albanian websites is useless. I believe that Macedonians built those cannons - this perspective is supported by Nikola Kirov-Majski, the co-author of the Krusevo Manifesto and cousin of Nikola Karev (leader of the Krusevo Republic). Kirov-Majski states that the cannons were built by people from the village of Selce. The inhabitants of that village were all adherents of the Exarchate, which means they were Macedonians, not ethnic Albanians.
[QUOTE]...does into really matter?[/QUOTE]
Does the truth matter, he asks? Read the name of this forum.
[QUOTE]Now as for Pitu Guli being Half Albanian .. Again most say he was a Vlach who's family originated from Voskopja in Albania and migrated to Krushevo after the city was burned down. That's where most Vlachs in Krushevo originate from.. Now Voskopja was a Vlach majority city .. but it also has Albanian "Mahalas" neighborhoods which were made up of Orthodox Albanians. Mixed marriages were and still are very common in southern Albania between Vlachs and Orthodox Albanians..Now the when Popovski says there are indications that he was Albanian or partially Albanian it would be from the fact that the Vlachs of Krushevo originate from Voskopja and that where maybe some mixed heritage..[/QUOTE]
That's nothing but speculation. Vlachs were living among Macedonians for over a century before Krusevo rose up in revolt. I could just as easily speculate that Pitu Guli was half Macedonian. But I won't, because I don't know that and neither do you. Sources from the time indicate he was a Vlach. You came here calling him "half Albanian" as a matter of fact and now, again, you're changing your story by saying that "maybe" there was some ethnic Albanian in his heritage. Honestly, get a hold of yourself, you're all over the place.
[QUOTE]But having said that.. there is another theory that says that communist Historians overplayed the role that Albanians played to create a stronger unified relations between Albanians and Macedonians. This also holds some weight ..[/QUOTE]
Sure, that holds some weight.
[QUOTE]It's does mention 20, 20, 20.. read it again...[/QUOTE]
I feel like I am interacting with a child here. I read it. Yes, it indicates that there were 20-20-20 in the council. It says [B]nothing about Albanians[/B] being one group of those 20's, which is what you were erroneously trying to insinuate earlier. Get it?
[QUOTE]I never said Albanains were a majority in the movement...I said they were a factor and they should be remembered as that.. nothing more nothing less...[/QUOTE]
They were a tiny factor of support where it concerns the Macedonian revolutionaries in Krusevo. They were a significant factor of support where it concerns the Ottomans in general. That's how they will be remembered.
[QUOTE]The Albanian Renaissance unlike other Balkan people wasn't exclusively religious based.[/QUOTE]
Albanian "renaissance", nice. Do you think the Shkendija supporters who chant "ubi, ubi, ubi kaura" (kill, kill, kill the infidel) are inclusive of Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians?
[QUOTE]I'm referring to Albanian elites that were a combination of Muslims (Sunni & Bekteshi) Catholics and Orthodox....These elites were mostly members of high positions in the Ottoman Empire...[/QUOTE]
Are you suggesting that Catholic and Orthodox Christian Albanians held high positions in the Ottoman Empire?
[QUOTE]Well everyone in the Balkans knows that Albanains have historically been recognized as wearers of white skull caps..[/QUOTE]
Yes, but you can't equate the specific look of a skull cap with just any white hat. Just because some of the people in that old picture happen to be wearing white hats doesn't automatically mean they're Albanians. Unless of course you can clearly identify which one's are actually wearing the white skull cap, which is what I asked you before.

Soldier of Macedon 05-18-2017 02:19 AM

[QUOTE="Albo"]I would say that the majority of Albanians were indifferent to the Uprising.. do you have proof that the majority were against it as you say??[/QUOTE]
The majority of ethnic Albanians in Macedonia were Muslim. The majority of Muslims in western Macedonia were ethnic Albanian. In the Ottoman Empire, the Muslims held a privileged position above the Christians. Ottoman troops were almost always accompanied by militias made up of local Muslims, the so-called 'bashibazouk' - which, in the case of western Macedonia, would have been overwhelmingly ethnic Albanian. These are all facts. Whilst not all Muslim / ethnic Albanian men in western Macedonia may have fought against the Macedonian revolutionaries, to suggest that most of them were indifferent to the prospect of losing their 'status' as a result of the Christian majority governing the country is a blatant disregard for logic.
[QUOTE]Ok let's just say that "weapons were also supplied by Albanians" Due to there being to detailed itinerary on weapon stocks and ethnic background of their origin.. :-p We have no documented proof either way do we?[/QUOTE]
Not OK. First you ramble on about the cherry cannon and now, again, you modify your position by making it more generic, edging ever closer to irrelevance. If there is no documented proof either way then how can you refer to a "detailed itinerary on weapon stocks and ethnic background of their origin", whatever that means?
[QUOTE]I was referring to Vlado Popovski's comments that there are indications that he was Albanian...Why would Vlado Popovski make that up?[/QUOTE]
You're the one using his comments to support your perspective yet you can't even refer to the sources on which these comments are based. The link you provided earlier is no good and I cannot find this article on google. Apparently he made the statement to an Albanian-language newspaper. It shouldn't be too difficult for you to find. Post another link to it here if able and we can go through it in more detail.
[QUOTE]Ok what communities were involved in the 20 20 20 split then? If Albanians weren't involved..I already sent you the wiki link quoting multiple sources[/QUOTE]
You're twisting things again. I never said ethnic Albanians weren't involved. It is you that said the parliament was made up of 20 Macedonians, 20 Vlachs and 20 Albanians. That is a LIE which even your own wiki link doesn't support. According to what you copied and pasted in your previous post, the three groups, each of whom provided 20 representatives, were made up of (1) pro-Romanian Vlachs, (2) adherents to the Patriarchate and (3) adherents to the Exarchate. If ethnic Albanians were present anywhere at all it would have been as a very small contingent of the Patriarchate group, because ethnographic statistics from the time clearly point to ethnic Albanians being a numerically insignificant element in Krusevo when compared to Macedonians and Vlachs.
[QUOTE]Seriously is that the best you have on this.. Using hooligan Shkendija chants as academia..Let's not get into soccer chanting.. where Macedonians and Serbs started the while "ubi ubi shiptari" chants Not to mention "gas Chambers for the Albanians" or "mrtov shiptar dobar shiptar" to mention a few..[/QUOTE]
Unsurprisingly, you've missed the point. The reason why I used that example is to demonstrate how misleading it is when ethnic Albanians like yourself pretend that religion isn't always a factor for your people. Those Shkendija supporters were making anti-Christian chants, which, by default, would be insulting to ethnic Albanians who are Christian. That seems to be common among your lot in Macedonia. Perhaps things are different in Albania, but in the late 19th century your fellow Muslim Albanians helped the Ottomans slaughter Christian Albanians in the Mirdite region.
[QUOTE]Obviously the highest positions were held Muslims.. but there were other influential religious and Rum - Milet christian leaders involved..[/QUOTE]
Most of them were Muslims and as I stated before, they didn't withhold their support for the uprising because it was "disorganized and underfunded", as you suggested previously, but rather because they didn't want to relinquish their privileged position above Christians. And the influence of Christian Albanians in the governing structure of the Ottoman Empire is practically non-existent compared to the many influential positions held by Muslim Albanians.
[QUOTE]White caps indicate Albanians..[/QUOTE]
White skull caps, not white caps in general. Are you suggesting that no other Balkan peoples wore white caps?
[QUOTE]Oh and just coincidence maybe but why is this guy on the Ilinden flag wearing a white skull cap and want seems to be a very Albanian looking traditional outfit?

[url]http://makedonija.name/images/histor...nden_zname.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
Oh no, he's an Albanian!!! You're a clown, lol. There is a difference between a simple white cap and a skull cap (which you can't even identify in that flag or the picture you posted earlier). And most traditional Balkan outfits look similar. What exactly about the outfit in the flag is "very Albanian" and not used by Macedonians?

Soldier of Macedon 05-30-2017 08:28 AM

Posts moved here from the below thread:

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8660&page=9[/url]

Here is something interesting. This photo is from around 1893 (or perhaps some time a little later), pictured are Dame Gruev (left) and his two friends, Grigor Popev (middle) and Aleksandar Panov (right). The note below the picture says that Popev and Panov were disguised in "Arnaut" clothing as they travelled through western Macedonia. Just because there are pictures of Macedonian revolutionaries presumably dressed as ethnic Albanians doesn't mean they were ethnic Albanians themselves. In this case, as in no doubt many others, they were merely using the dress of the enemy (or a population that the Ottomans didn't find hostile) to pass through areas undetected.

[img]https://image.ibb.co/ndhE7a/DAME_GRUEV.jpg[/img]

Carlin 04-29-2018 09:22 PM

The Ilinden Uprising from the Greek point of view.

[I]The following is a set of various segments put together for the purpose of this article on Krushevo from the upcoming book Macedonia, A Pass to Time, A Bridge to Infinity, (© 2014) by Marcus Alexander Templar. [/I]

URL:
[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2014/04/the-myth-of-liberation-1903-peoples.html[/url]

[I]The Myth of Liberation: 1903 - The “People’s Republic of Krushevo”[/I]

VMRO 04-30-2018 06:03 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;173131]The Ilinden Uprising from the Greek point of view.

[I]The following is a set of various segments put together for the purpose of this article on Krushevo from the upcoming book Macedonia, A Pass to Time, A Bridge to Infinity, (© 2014) by Marcus Alexander Templar. [/I]

URL:
[url]http://vlahofonoi.blogspot.ca/2014/04/the-myth-of-liberation-1903-peoples.html[/url]

[I]The Myth of Liberation: 1903 - The “People’s Republic of Krushevo”[/I][/QUOTE]


Wow Marcus Templar, he is one looney toon who has a small following of Ancient Hellene descendants on Social Media who believe they're Spartans.

Liberator of Makedonija 05-16-2019 01:54 AM

The uprising outside the Manastır Vilayet

[IMG]https://i.vgy.me/YdtcPq.jpg[/IMG]

Carlin 07-03-2020 08:58 AM

Germany's role in crushing Ilinden
 
In 1912 an unnamed Western diplomat writing for an American newspaper claimed that he had first hand knowledge of Germany's role in crushing the Ilinden Uprising: "in 1903 the Macedonian insurrection had to be suppressed by the German government," he wrote.

Please see link for full aricle:
[url]https://teamuzunovmedia.blogspot.com/2018/08/germanys-role-in-crushing-ilinden.html[/url]

The link/article has many images, pictures and screenshots so it's not easy to copy and paste everything.

Liberator of Makedonija 07-04-2020 01:21 AM

Whilst I have no evidence on handy, I have encountered this quite a few times over the last year or so that Germany assisted the Ottomans during the uprising.


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